GMH Improvement Idea Thread

[Gentleboy]

Hey all,

it's no secret that GMH leader roles have a high turn-over. I've played one, I played one badly.

Should the merchants be re-worked? Why is there such a high turnover rate? And can we not keep mentioning the vending machine comparison to merchants. I think we all understand that merchants lack being a character and become a means of getting ur sweet perfumes, badass silt horror cod plates, and I dunno a spice pipe that looks like a gortok shitting.

I think there is more conversation to be had surrounding the current role of merchants, employees, and their place in the world. I heard something interesting from veteran players that when the GMHs first came about, they had goals. Those goals were met and since then, the GMHs have just been coasting. I might be wrong. Inform a veteran newbie like me a bit more on how things used to be.

I personally think that Kurac needs to be completely re-worked. Their wares need to be updated or there needs to be a huge add-on for gear. Maybe more entertainment stuff, more medical gear. And yes, ew, sex stuff. Even if it's just a prop. They are the house of sex, drugs, and... wilderness camo. I think they should move away from wilderness, give that to Salarr, and put more focus on the niche. Especially the racial niche, since they are one of the only GMH houses that HIRE ALL RACES.


Anyway, thoughts? Ideas? Can anyone who played long-lived leaders tell us what worked? Anyone who played a long-live crafter, entertainer tell us when you had the most fun?

[Gentleboy]

Oh! And just a reminder. Be kind, listen, and respond with respect. These threads are opinion based! I can't wait to see what you all bring.

[Narf]

I think it might help with some of the drudgery that comes from the role to streamline the selling bit so the buyer and seller don't have to be online at the same time to make a transaction.

Have NPCs that can pass along items to specific clients, or eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

[mansa]

My initial problems with the Greater Merchant Houses primarily are with how new characters are entered into the gameworld and how they are set up.

In my opinion, New Greater Merchant House leaders need to know:

• Who the previous GMH characters were.
• What those players were attempting to accomplish with their characters.
• ...If the new character wants to continue those plotlines or if they want to start their own
• Who the political people were in the city they are primarily playing in.
• ...How the previous characters were treating them, and if they want to continue treating them the same, or change.
• If there is any outstanding item orders from that need to be fulfilled.
• An initial breadcrumb quest to help those players both get into character better, and to feel like they have something to accomplish right away.

In my few characters that I've played in the Greater Merchant Houses, I've always struggled with their first 24 hours of play with the character, and if it doesn't 'click' then I usually store, and having those questions above answered would of been really *really* helpful.

[Halaster]

eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

+1 to that!

[Patuk]

Should the merchants be re-worked?

Maybe?

Why is there such a high turnover rate?

Because they keep getting fucking murdered. Constantly. High murder rate equals high turnover rate.

I think we all understand that merchants lack being a character and become a means of getting ur sweet perfumes, badass silt horror cod plates, and I dunno a spice pipe that looks like a gortok shitting.

No? I played my last GMH merchant in 2013, but didn't find that it stifled my ability to play the character somehow. You are free to make your time your own and literally nobody in the game, not a soul, will or can make you do otherwise.



Anyway.


Back in the 90s or so, I might guess, GMHs could be a more powerful force than they are now. PCs could not craft yet, indie merchants hoping to make coin could but resort to foraging and selling goods across the known, and people were just worse at the game: joining a clan for its perks was more attractive.

These thing no longer hold. A crafter in 2021 can earn far more cash than GMH PCs can by sheer virtue of craft skills being fantastic and not being limited by the market. Salarr being that house with the weapons isn't relevant at all: a long length of bone makes you a sword that you can use for your PC's entire career without feeling bad or weak. Hire people? Good luck! Merchants know they will make less and be less free by joining you, a cool third of the playerbase is unemployable mages, and the remaining mundanes know that hunting by themselves paints a smaller target on their backs than dying because Faithful Lady Killjoy wants to annoy you.

In the end, GMH have less of a point today than they did back then. The Arabet and the Sun Runners and the Valuren can bring their areas to life and do their own thing. The Guild can deal shadily and the AoD can demand they get a cut of the cash or maybe beat someone up if they don't play ball. The same AoD and the Legions can skirmish if they feel like it. What do GMH do? GMH show up for monthly RPTs, or so, and auction off items dredged from a database. A fancy axe, a purple robe, some camouflage gear BUT IT'S MADE FROM AUROCH HIDE.

Flavor items are not a solution: GMH people need a day job. If you're a crafter in the house, you need a reason to craft. If you're one of the house's whole two (2) huntsmen, you need a reason to exist also: GMH warehouses are as fucking packed as they come. If you're a leader, you need a reason to exist beyond inertia. That GMH leaders are far more fragile than nobles and templars certainly doesn't help here, because they come with guards nor tacky templar shit and are expected to do stuff in public all the time. The staff policy of only 'really' engaging with leaders after they've been around for months or so makes it worse yet. Three months out of my life, yours, anyone's, after you've already selected a guy to be sponsored? What even was the point of sponsoring them in then?

I don't really know how to fix this without adding a lot to the game that isn't already there. I certainly don't know how to do it given player counts currently. The game has maybe 150 players at max, which means any clan out there can hope for maybe five people at most. Whatever the solution is, it has to be workable for a clan of maybe five, six people on a good day. It has to provide a thing for people to do outside of biweekly RPTs, so their whole purpose isn't stretched out over weeks upon boring weeks. And it has to be something that won't fall apart entirely when some guy gets fucking shanked, staff has to spend two weeks picking a new person, and thing won't roll for another four because apparently slow going is a good thing.

[Gentleboy]

My initial problems with the Greater Merchant Houses primarily are with how new characters are entered into the gameworld and how they are set up.

In my opinion, New Greater Merchant House leaders need to know:

• Who the previous GMH characters were.
• What those players were attempting to accomplish with their characters.
• ...If the new character wants to continue those plotlines or if they want to start their own
• Who the political people were in the city they are primarily playing in.
• ...How the previous characters were treating them, and if they want to continue treating them the same, or change.
• If there is any outstanding item orders from that need to be fulfilled.
• An initial breadcrumb quest to help those players both get into character better, and to feel like they have something to accomplish right away.

In my few characters that I've played in the Greater Merchant Houses, I've always struggled with their first 24 hours of play with the character, and if it doesn't 'click' then I usually store, and having those questions above answered would of been really *really* helpful.

This is a wonderful post! Thank you, Mansa! I agree with almost everything here. It's like, the legacy and work of the previous character disappears.

[Gentleboy]

Should the merchants be re-worked?

Maybe?

Why is there such a high turnover rate?

Because they keep getting fucking murdered. Constantly. High murder rate equals high turnover rate.

I think we all understand that merchants lack being a character and become a means of getting ur sweet perfumes, badass silt horror cod plates, and I dunno a spice pipe that looks like a gortok shitting.

No? I played my last GMH merchant in 2013, but didn't find that it stifled my ability to play the character somehow. You are free to make your time your own and literally nobody in the game, not a soul, will or can make you do otherwise.



Anyway.


Back in the 90s or so, I might guess, GMHs could be a more powerful force than they are now. PCs could not craft yet, indie merchants hoping to make coin could but resort to foraging and selling goods across the known, and people were just worse at the game: joining a clan for its perks was more attractive.

These thing no longer hold. A crafter in 2021 can earn far more cash than GMH PCs can by sheer virtue of craft skills being fantastic and not being limited by the market. Salarr being that house with the weapons isn't relevant at all: a long length of bone makes you a sword that you can use for your PC's entire career without feeling bad or weak. Hire people? Good luck! Merchants know they will make less and be less free by joining you, a cool third of the playerbase is unemployable mages, and the remaining mundanes know that hunting by themselves paints a smaller target on their backs than dying because Faithful Lady Killjoy wants to annoy you.

In the end, GMH have less of a point today than they did back then. The Arabet and the Sun Runners and the Valuren can bring their areas to life and do their own thing. The Guild can deal shadily and the AoD can demand they get a cut of the cash or maybe beat someone up if they don't play ball. The same AoD and the Legions can skirmish if they feel like it. What do GMH do? GMH show up for monthly RPTs, or so, and auction off items dredged from a database. A fancy axe, a purple robe, some camouflage gear BUT IT'S MADE FROM AUROCH HIDE.

Flavor items are not a solution: GMH people need a day job. If you're a crafter in the house, you need a reason to craft. If you're one of the house's whole two (2) huntsmen, you need a reason to exist also: GMH warehouses are as fucking packed as they come. If you're a leader, you need a reason to exist beyond inertia. That GMH leaders are far more fragile than nobles and templars certainly doesn't help here, because they come with guards nor tacky templar shit and are expected to do stuff in public all the time. The staff policy of only 'really' engaging with leaders after they've been around for months or so makes it worse yet. Three months out of my life, yours, anyone's, after you've already selected a guy to be sponsored? What even was the point of sponsoring them in then?

I don't really know how to fix this without adding a lot to the game that isn't already there. I certainly don't know how to do it given player counts currently. The game has maybe 150 players at max, which means any clan out there can hope for maybe five people at most. Whatever the solution is, it has to be workable for a clan of maybe five, six people on a good day. It has to provide a thing for people to do outside of biweekly RPTs, so their whole purpose isn't stretched out over weeks upon boring weeks. And it has to be something that won't fall apart entirely when some guy gets fucking shanked, staff has to spend two weeks picking a new person, and thing won't roll for another four because apparently slow going is a good thing.

Another great post!

You mentioned a day job. That makes me think... Red Storm is great. Of course, I'm always thinking about Red Storm. But it's great because of The Sand Lord's Bounty. I think every city can do with one of those, but maybe with less income gathered? What do you think?

[betweenford]

Kill.

[Patuk]

Oh? That'd be something, if not quite what I meant. The AoD has a day job: patrol, try to thwart the one and a half criminal in 'nak at a time, maybe protect a templar doing templar stuff and be a moustached Russian henchman. GMH employees don't really have a similar thing to do, most days, be they leaders or rank and file employees. Playing number go up with the clan bank account just isn't all that engaging.

I also agree with Mansa fully and really really would like to see his suggestion become policy.

[Gentleboy]

Oh? That'd be something, if not quite what I meant. The AoD has a day job: patrol, try to thwart the one and a half criminal in 'nak at a time, maybe protect a templar doing templar stuff and be a moustached Russian henchman. GMH employees don't really have a similar thing to do, most days, be they leaders or rank and file employees. Playing number go up with the clan bank account just isn't all that engaging.

I also agree with Mansa fully and really really would like to see his suggestion become policy.

I suppose their day job is gossiping and sitting at the bar and being a presence. But, crafters can't sell, and if there is no GMH leader online, it can be a little tough.

"Oh! A Kadian! I need some stuff!"

"Sorry! I can't sell things I make!"

"Can you tell your boss I want to buy soap?"

"Sure, but they haven't been about in five weeks. And four nobles need things so you might not get it and keep having to pester them and me."

-------------------------------

And it would be nice if they had to make things consistently. Like Salarr has an NPC who will always buy arrows. For like.. 2 sid a pop. Kadius... I dunno, beads? And Kurac.... mumble mumble.. I dunno..

But then again, that brings the problem of compound sitting. This is a very tricky thing..

[Tranquil]

An idea I've had from a while ago (apologies if this was said already as I havent fully read the thread) was moving the unabashed money printing NPCs into GMH clans. Remove the clothes buying NPC from Red Storm for example and move it into Kadius. Let crafters use up the 500 bones in the warehouse by making a bunch of swords.. etc with other items according to each house. The PC merchant could also get a cut.

Let GMH be rich, and make them far more desirable for being a crafter other then simply the status. Since indies often make far more coin currenty.

EDIT: Could fix the compound sitting issue by making these NPCs work like any other shop. Coin limit per person, and closes every night until early morning. If players still compound sit at night despite these changes... well, they'd probably compound sit anyways.

[Gentleboy]

An idea I've had from a while ago (apologies if this was said already as I havent fully read the thread) was moving the unabashed money printing NPCs into GMH clans. Remove the clothes buying NPC from Red Storm for example and move it into Kadius. Let crafters use up the 500 bones in the warehouse by making a bunch of swords.. etc with other items according to each house. The PC merchant could also get a cut.

Let GMH be rich, and make them far more desirable for being a crafter other then simply the status. Since indies often make far more coin currenty.

EDIT: Could fix the compound sitting issue by making these NPCs work like any other shop. Coin limit per person, and closes every night until early morning. If players still compound sit at night despite these changes... well, they'd probably compound sit anyways.

Oh! This is very good as well!

[Nao]

I think it would help to loosen the restrictions on 'only merchants can sell things' a bit. Let the higher-ranked minions sell basic items. That would take some of the pressure off the GMH merchants and maybe they wouldn't be swamped with requests as soon as they log on. They would have more time to schmooze, socialize, plot, deal with minions and so on.

> But tradition! Player interaction! It's supposed to be this way

Something needs to change because the current system doesn't seem to be working anymore. Constant fluctuation and the gaps in leadership roles (not just GMH leaders) are bad for the game. It takes at least a couple of weeks to replace someone, then again a few more weeks to get things off the ground again, especially if the old employees didn't stick around. They leave a gap in the meantime - nobody gets recruited, other PCs move on or store and all plots that need a Kadian/Kuraci/Salarri are put on hold.

Another idea I've had is to hire two people for the same role, if at all possible. I know this happens already, but I'd like this to be the norm, not the exception. This would help with continuity (both inside and outside the clan), bridge gaps if someone dies, stores, or is absent for OOC reasons, and give the two leaders roleplaying opportunities with the other family member - whether it's conflict or cooperation.

[MeTekillot]

Make a robust system for GMH leaders to load in items instead of needing staff to do it. Cannibalize the staff command code, tack on some more tools for sorting, and charge coins to load it in.

Make GMH gear obviously superior to indie gear. Don't be stingy with skill, damage, off/def, and stat buffs from using GMH gear.

Tooting my own horn, but maybe take some pointers from my code thread about spice so that spice is an attractively addictive substance rather than a nearly suicidal Sword of Damocles every time you use it.

[Barsook]

Make a robust system for GMH leaders to load in items instead of needing staff to do it. Cannibalize the staff command code, tack on some more tools for sorting, and charge coins to load it in.

This because it would reduce the need for red tape, but I feel like there need to some "cooldown" timer to create the time it takes a crafter to make the item. Although with how large the GMH's are, virtually, that makes barely any sense. Or maybe like how the tailor/armor tailor system works with tickets and a take it takes to craft said item. I think the latter is the best idea out of the two.

Along with the above and MeTek's second point, what Mansa said in his post are the main points that I agree on. That's some red tape that I think is needed as it's allowing the staff to animate the superior to provide briefing rather than through a request. Provide roleplay for the newly promoted family member to get a sense of what's need to be done and in turn, the staff, can learn a bit how on the player is going to do after the role call.

Lastly, and this is mostly an question to staff, what's the ratio of GMH leader being murdered over storage? I don't think it all murder all the time but the flip-side, players store because the role is meh.

[Barsook]

This was brought up on Discord, but are GMH's meant to work together to stomp out everyone else and also to trade with each other?

[Jihelu]

Like, stomp out competition?

Yes/No.

Most competition we see, on the player side and NPC, will never seriously dent GMH profits. That elf in the Red's shop (Also...an elf! Near Red's! Having a shop! Apparently this sort of thing isn't impossible) isn't cutting into Kadius sales all that much. The several weapon vendors, and stall, in the bazaar aren't hurting Salarri profits. It would take a lot to do that to the point that to get to the space you are at you'd have to be voted upon by the Senate, which the GMH's have a say in (Either officially, I forget, or through bribery)

Basically if the Senate isn't voting on whether or not you should be allowed to do what you want to do a GMH shouldn't be stomping their feet and going 'HE'S KILLING MY BUSINESS'. Maybe individual agents/whatever the fuck they call their members but if I got GMH assassinated for being Tier 3 in a business I'd send a glitter bomb to staff.

[JustAnotherGuy]

eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

+1 to that!

Cannot agree with this one more than enough.  Someone mentions they are looking for something... put it up on a shop after it's made in the area the person may get it.  Now if the merchant wants to take the order and it's going to be a big order, say a large or couple large, then they can do it.  Nobles and Templars, oh yeah... those are the folks that will be spending lot of coins.

At the same point though, there should be some way to pass goods from a person to person WITHOUT personal interaction.  GMH merchants are going to have errand boys, they are going to have minions to pass along goods.  A PC doesn't need to do that themselves.  The part that I hated the most with being a GMH merchant was "delivery".  If I could just get the items delivered somehow directly to an individual, that would be amazing.

Merchant NPC that you can set an item to show only for a certain Name/Keyword, AND you can set the price.  That would be the perfect dream right there.

[HavokBlue]

Loading and fulfilling specific item orders is the easiest part of staffing a GMH. If you torment your storyteller with vague requests for items that may or may not exist, it gets trickier. If you have a precise list and you know what you want, the amount of time it actually takes is negligible.

My small suggestion would be for a brave storyteller to request a crafting recipe be submitted alongside each House-specific item order they receive. Even if the recipe is not implemented immediately to the game, it can be stashed in a spreadsheet and saved for a later date when someone may have the patience to add recipes to presently-uncraftable clan items. Editorial review and recipe programming remain a necessary step but you effectively automate a not insignificant portion of the busy-work that comes with realizing the dream of fully craftable clan item lists.

[Gentleboy]

Hey all! I'm bumping this cause the topic is up on discord.

How can we make GMH's more appealing?

What would a complete overhaul look like?

What's the difference between GMH now and GMH in their prime?

[ShaLeah]

eliminate the concept of "orders" all together, and just have GMH people make things for shops and it becomes first come first serve.

+1 to that!

Noooo!


I counter THE ABOVE WITH:

Give GMH sponsored roles the ability to load anything flagged their GMH so they don't have to botherv staff to do it.

[Jahash]

It really is no "bother" to ask me to do item orders. I promise. Don't be afraid to "bother" me for anything - I love helping you guys!

[sucre]

It really is no "bother" to ask me to do item orders. I promise. Don't be afraid to "bother" me for anything - I love helping you guys!

But you might not always be staff! We appreciate it, it's just that I think people are suggesting this for future iterations of staff, too, when rotations happen.

[Narf]

Could people that have played GHM leaders possibly give an idea of what was most onerous about the role?

I mean I've heard people complain, but it's hard to tell how much is hyperbole and how much is genuine grievance.

[sucre]

Could people that have played GHM leaders possibly give an idea of what was most onerous about the role?

I mean I've heard people complain, but it's hard to tell how much is hyperbole and how much is genuine grievance.

Oftentimes, other leader PCs treat you as vending machines. And sometimes, your item requests aren't resolved with the speed they expect, and so you're mistreated in game for things you can not control. I know that might be grievance/offender numero uno.

[MeTekillot]

I agree with Shaleah that GMH Leaders should be able to just load in items themself. It has nothing but upside, save from some possible edge cases of abuse, which is already mitigated by the role requiring the vetting of staff based on player history.

[Barsook]

I also agree with PC Merchants or higher to be able to load in items.

Another problem, which was brought up on Discord, is there is no difference between the Merchant rank and the Agent rank ICly aside from what duties each rank has and what they can do within the GMH. Outside, no one care what rank you are because there seems to be no point.

And it seems that the starting rank from a sponsored role call is the starting rank is Merchant. It would be nice if there was a choice for those who don't care for the journey to higher ranks.

[Wday]

Have all GMH make items and place them in shops.  I feel this would cause more GMH members to get out in public. PLUS! this would fill shops with neat items and not just 10000 agafari sharp knives to buy and so on. ICLY this would keep agents out and busy making sure their shops had items of want to sell to the public.

[Barsook]

That would require item order requests and the knowledge of what are the House crafts because I think some items aren't listed in the mega item list threads for at least one of the GMH's. Also, wouldn't that make the merchant PCs vending machines still and the shopkeeps the middle, in some sense?

[The Gruffalo]

Here's a novel solution, don't drown merchants in item orders, stick to stuff you actually need or if you're shopping for fun make sure it's fun for them too. In other words, turn it into roleplay.

Give them a minimum 1-2 rl weeks to fill your order, to reflect the fact that this is a low tech world where everything is made by hand. Stop being OOCly insensitive to the demands if the role, and allow the characters to to breathe and be characters rather than vending machines.

Getting imaginary stuff can usually wait, and if it can't, use the shops in the bazaar. Y'allcan be some entitled motherfuckers. Being entitled ingame is fine as long as you're being reasonable to world expectations as well. Be entitled about how the seams aren't just so amd the hem needs to be lower. Roleplay it..

Wanting bespoke clothing, armor, or gear made and delivered pronto is a ridiculous notion. I don't care how fast the crafting system actually makes it on an OOC level, IC it should take a few weeks minimum to make most of the orders I'd see as a Merchant PC. So if you're pouncing on them wanting bling yesterday, hold yourr fucking chalton and give them time. If you're offended by this post you're probably one of the people I hated dealing with.

Tl;dr don't be that OOCly insensitive asshole that ruins roles for people..

[Incognito]

I've played my more-than-fair share of GMH PCs, both family and employee roles.  In the past, and up to very recently.

I definitely agree that GMHs need some sort of make-over.

The limitation on number of PCs employed for starters is very restrictive. Add to that the fact that they can only be crafters. Just makes for an extremely restrictive environment to play in. The inability to have in-House hunters/gatherers forces GMHs to depend on outsiders entirely, and that is tricky when one GMH is dominating the others in cornering markets of certain materials, or from certain suppliers of said materials. The same goes for the inability to have in-House intel-gathering staff, and muscle.

This needs to be remedied, perhaps with leeway to hire more and diverse PCs. In-House GMH corps (Kuraci Outriders & Regulars, Salarri Steel Guard and Kadian Falcons) worked well. Better than the Garrison for sure. And MUCH better than having to rely completely on supply companies and independent hunter/gatherers.

Then we come to the whole "order delivery" part, which isn't ideal by a longshot! PCs place orders, the GMH PC conveys those orders to Staff in a weekly email, Staff loads up items on an NPC, then when the customer and GMH PC do meet, the sale is made. Unfortunately, we cannot have an array of NPCs which carry all the House items pre-loaded on them for immediate retrieval and sale, because GMHs have HUGE databases of items (think 1500+ atleast), and then there are restrictions on which items can be sold to which Houses, which restricted items cannot be sold more than a certain number per year IG etc. Finally, factor in the ever-expanding line of custom crafts added to each GMH's line-up.

One solution to this *could* be to have a single NPC in a locked/secure location that can directly load items, so that the authorised GMH personnel could just go there and have their orders loaded up on the spot (using the object number identifier). Needless to say, Staff should receive a log of this activity for perusal/approval at a later date. (Yes, I do know this is easier said than done, but it is the best solution I could think of).

As far as adding product lines to GMHS, I would say that GMHs do NOT need more and newer products and product lines added to them. Indy trading companies vying to make a MMH already have tremendous difficulty in identifying niche products that do not overlap with the current product lines of existing GMHs. The GMHs have monopolies for a reason, but there's no reason to add to them really.

We want GMHs to be self-sufficient, we want them to deal with gathering raw materials, deliver goods on time without pissing off customers, dangerous elements in the wilderness, deadlier elements in the Cities, templars, nobles, politics amongst themselves - AND we want GMH leader pcs to survive, have longevity and have fun in their roles - then we need to give them the means to succeed!

[Brytta Léofa]

On the special order front: what if PC merchants could generate a ticket that encapsulated your order, which you'd turn in at the standard GMH tailoring location?

- This requires being physically present with the merchant at order time rather than pickup time. Still drives role-play and travel, but totally eliminates the nagging aspect. (Customers can check order progress with the tailor.)
- Being physically present at order time means that the code can take measurements so there are no sizing problems. (Imagine being ABLE to order a bow the correct strength, zomg.)
- The code for this can still support all manner of fun hijinks: amount due at delivery (vs upfront to the PC merchant), time the order takes (with some minimums enforced), whether the recipient ever actually gets the order. Cheat your boss, cheat your customers, spend your own money to sweeten the deal.
- Using tickets supports exciting new theft opportunities.

So this needs three new commands given to PC merchants:
(1) List objects in the database with a clan-specific filter. (This may be slightly glitchy because database inconsistency, but 99% of stuff should be fine...trust your sponsored roles to not load "[bow] [3room] [donotlaod]" that slipped through because of a typo.) They're using this to get object numbers. Yes, nobody should ever OOC "I want onum 12345," d'oh.
(2) View attributes of an onum in the database, just so they can see more than the sdesc. (Only works for objects they can already list.)
(3) Create a "tailoring" ticket for a PC in the room, encapsulating an onum (one that they can list), a price, and an order duration. These can be logged for compliance monitoring.

I think this is worth the investment just for eliminating order-nagging. But it also saves 15-30 mins of PC/staff time per item that could be better spent doing something else. And it gives GMH PCs the ability to be familiar with their craft list, which really should be the case anyway.

[Barsook]

I already suggested my idea about the ticket system earlier for the orders and I think we do need that.

[Brytta Léofa]

I already suggested my idea about the ticket system earlier for the orders and I think we do need that.

Derp, so you did. :thumbs up:

[Barsook]

The limitation on number of PCs employed for starters is very restrictive. Add to that the fact that they can only be crafters. Just makes for an extremely restrictive environment to play in. The inability to have in-House hunters/gatherers forces GMHs to depend on outsiders entirely, and that is tricky when one GMH is dominating the others in cornering markets of certain materials, or from certain suppliers of said materials. The same goes for the inability to have in-House intel-gathering staff, and muscle.

This needs to be remedied, perhaps with leeway to hire more and diverse PCs. In-House GMH corps (Kuraci Outriders & Regulars, Salarri Steel Guard and Kadian Falcons) worked well. Better than the Garrison for sure. And MUCH better than having to rely completely on supply companies and independent hunter/gatherers.

Along with a better ordering system, this is the other biggest problems is the lack of diversity does really limit the options. All of the GMH employees that I played, minus Hostess Songbird Mags of House Kurac, were mostly crafters. I think I had one hunter in House Salarr. That lead to spam crafting like crazy which I think overwhelmed the PC merchants with stuff to sell and no place to sell them.

That's why I enjoyed my first time in House Kurac with Mags because the entertainment branch was just not another crafting/hunting/merchanting branch.

To me, a crew isn't just three pieces of the puzzle but all of the pieces. It functions better that way.

ETA: I do agree that having the guarding branch of each GMH is better than the Garrison as it would create a better power struggle in Luir's rather than "Together we are strong!". Even though GMH's should be not competing against each other...

As far as adding product lines to GMHS, I would say that GMHs do NOT need more and newer products and product lines added to them. Indy trading companies vying to make a MMH already have tremendous difficulty in identifying niche products that do not overlap with the current product lines of existing GMHs. The GMHs have monopolies for a reason, but there's no reason to add to them really.

Agreed.

We want GMHs to be self-sufficient, we want them to deal with gathering raw materials, deliver goods on time without pissing off customers, dangerous elements in the wilderness, deadlier elements in the Cities, templars, nobles, politics amongst themselves - AND we want GMH leader pcs to survive, have longevity and have fun in their roles - then we need to give them the means to succeed!

Well said.

[sucre]

Maybe every item should be craftable? And then a master list provided of clan crafting recipes?

[Lotion]

Maybe every item should be craftable? And then a master list provided of clan crafting recipes?

this would be so nice but there are also an absurd number of items that lack recipies and posting such a large obtuse list on the gdb would be eek

[Veselka]

GMH absolutely compete against each other. It just is not in our RL understanding of how businesses are "competition". We think of it as — if they are making clothing, and I am making knives, how could we possibly be in competition with one another?

This is not how it plays out in places like Allanak and Tuluk, where you need politics to survive the onslaught of demanded fines, taxes, bribes, and "pocket nobles/Templars" to assist in the survival of your House. This is where the Agent branch comes into play and is IMHO vastly more enjoyable than playing a Merchant.

Houses vie against each other pretty constantly. It isn't always out in the open. Sometimes they are maneuvering for better deals from Templar Soandso while disadvantaging another House. Sometimes one Agent is putting out a hit on another House's Merchant for undercutting them at an Auction. There's a thousand reasons for GMH to not get along, and only a handful of reasons they should. Conflict is interesting when contrasted with peace — so there have been periods of time where that mutual animosity is subtle or behind the scenes.

But I don't think we should perpetuate the notion that GMH get along with one another just because their monopolies focus on different commodities. Politically speaking, they are certainly at odds with one another, as "FAVOR" is a finite resource when it comes to Templars and Nobles.

[Narf]

GMH absolutely compete against each other. It just is not in our RL understanding of how businesses are "competition". We think of it as — if they are making clothing, and I am making knives, how could we possibly be in competition with one another?

Well, except for Kurac. They compete very traditionally with just about everyone in the game. I mean I guess they don't sell slaves, so they're in the clear with Borsail and Kasix. That seems like about it though.

[Dune Bunny]

I think one way of approving a GMH member's time/life is that if you're not "Someone", then you shouldn't really be pestering them for their time. Amos the Grebmeister shouldn't be in the head of Merchant Minnie Salarr, pushing for an order of Ankheg armor ASAP, because he grebbed up 20 large in salt last week. (I'd love to see cash flow severely struck down, to combat these sorts of things, but that's a different topic altogether.)

IMO - Amos, more fittingly, should be going to the bazaar to search through the bins at the two Salarr shops for his elite goods, because common grebbers aren't on the same level of GMH blood, who likely have Nobles and Templars up their ass half the day, and don't need a basic dude adding to the headache. I'd assume Amos should be expecting to lose that Ankheg armor the first time he walks past an AOD corporal/sergeant in tattered leathers that just happens to need some new duds...

The goods at the Salarr shop aren't crap, by the way - they're Salarri quality wares, and the best arms/armor in the Known. And if a common Amos DOES wish to butt in on a GMH blood's busy schedule, it should come at an up-front monetary cost. "Oi, Merchant Minni, I know yer busy an' all, but here's some 'sid for your time, I'd like to speak abouts spendin' lotsa coin wif ya."

Another thing is that I think the GMHs themselves put too much wealth in the hands of the independents. Every normal shop in the world might pay 8 'sid for that bone dagger, but Salarr over there will give you 12. Salarr should be giving you 6-8, because they're doing you a favor by taking your out-of-house products to sell, and will sell it for more than the other shops as well. Why sell the Uber Silken X to Old Dude in the Tent for 500, when Kadius will give you 800, which is more than enough to live on until they sell one of the 5 you sold them, so you can sell more?

^ The sad reality of the above as well, is that as a crafter in a GMH, that thing that sells for 800, you'll see about 200 of it. Free food and water, and a wide open locker isn't an offset of 600 'sid per item when it comes down to numbers - because not only is that indy making an impossible fortune as it is, they have no restrictions put upon them by anything that a GMH will put on its employees. (As someone that has played more of independent crafters in the past few years than likely an entire decade of others pcs, I feel as if shooting myself in the foot here. XD )

The incentives to be in a GMH should be a shining example of 'The Good Life' on Zalanthas. Growing children should see an eventual job with a GMH as the pinnacle of life. Kadian Crafter #28475 should walk about with her chin up, because she's where 99.9% of the Known will never be. These things, sadly, just don't translate into the coded game, as well as the RP-area of it either, regardless of what the docs say about it.

How to change that without making independents feel like they've had the rug yanked out from beneath them is a debacle I don't think I have an answer for though. So, I don't really think there's much reworking that needs done to the GMH, so much as the culture of the game surrounding them needs to be in a place where GMHs are considered fun/viable/awesome to be a part of when compared to not having any restrictions to adhere to as an independent. (A former Trade Templar that was not happy at all if my 300 a year taxes didn't come with at least a large worth of a tip was a nice thing to see, even if by lore standards, 1300 a year should be a fortune. XD)

That was a lot of (hopefully not) incoherent rambling, sorry!

[WithSprinkles]

GMH absolutely compete against each other. It just is not in our RL understanding of how businesses are "competition". We think of it as — if they are making clothing, and I am making knives, how could we possibly be in competition with one another?

Well, except for Kurac. They compete very traditionally with just about everyone in the game. I mean I guess they don't sell slaves, so they're in the clear with Borsail and Kasix. That seems like about it though.

I had considered contributing and said nah, but this caught my attention.

I don't see Nergal's post right now, and don't feel like searching for it, but years past he put up a summary about an RPT that was attempted for the merchant houses. It seemed to end rather prematurely on staff's part, and his post cleared up the fact that staff had seemingly dropped it because there were suspicions of OOC collusion. At the time, my character was very much still alive, at the time of the post, and for a long while after, so I felt that my hands were tied in properly responding to what was shared with the community, though I expressed my displeasure in the request tool at how events were characterized. I'm not bound by a living character, or the one year "rule" anymore.

The merchant houses do squabble and compete, though folks that regularly play in them, the merchant houses and AOD know that. At the time, Kadius and Salarr had a pretty good relationship. Our crews regularly went out to hunt together, and we had several leadership roles in both crews - I think three in each house. There were no major conflicts between any of us that I noted, beyond usual sibling pranks and tensions in house. In fact, Bella of the Salarri crew had proposed to Maristen - they both had no true interest in each other beyond being friends, but saw the benefit of a business marriage contract (which would have been a way to get Maristen rightfully promoted... maybe also transferred, but again, politics). His own house ended up jamming a ring onto his finger, maybe, to prevent a talent poaching as lifesworn had been abolished at that point. From a character perspective, I've no clue.

In any case, both houses got on so well that there would be makeshift surprise sculptures outside of both compounds made by the crafters and hunters in teasing formations of random supplies that I think the leaders pretended to ignore, for the most part. With the combined strength of the crews, we were bringing down big, and sometimes exotic game, and using it for new crafts.

So when we got wind of a cave full of ankheg with pretty shells, we naturally got excited. It was right near Kurac's holding, but we reasoned that it was right by Salarr's Camp, and near enough to Kadius' Outpost, so we weren't gonna let them just have it all to themselves. So Salarr and Kadius sat down and tirelessly wrote draft after draft after DRAFT of a contract with a 33 percent share to show to Kurac. My character couldn't read at the time, but was fully involved in it all, with the leaders of both houses beginning to (with permission from higher up and some dealing) showing my character how to understand Cavilish writing.

Kurac wasn't having it, and was angry and suspicious that we'd already been negotiating, and hardly any amount of discussion was getting through to them. So we wrote the contract over and over again with them threatening to just blow the cave up saying that it would be safer for their Outpost - which... took Kadius and Salarr aback. We started posting up spies, and sure enough, Kurac seemed to be sending in scouts, and there were fences being set up near the cave.

Now this was getting the leaders of Kadius and Salarr pretty upset, and spies were sent in. My character clapped his hands over his ears a couple times during some parts of the discussion, because he wanted to be able to say WITHOUT LYING that he knew nothing of some of what might go down, because the Kuraci were beginning to get exceedingly hostile about blurs in the sands. After the events at the Estate a year or so prior with the crafter named Mert, Maristen had a certain terror of magic. However, he spent a good deal of his time in the company of Templars that sometimes glowed with power, and had to frequently do business in Tuluk as a Merchant House Overseer. He had been trained to know what mind worms were, if not what their attacks felt like, and carried fetishes on himself to try to shield his thoughts.

Long story short, he woke from resting at Red's, and as soon as he stepped out into the streets, people told him to hide himself, because Ruke was dead. I think he immediately changed cloaks and ran home. I was a bit confused as a player, and shocked, and also had a good deal of, "What the hell?" swirling in my head. I was bummed because I respected the longevity and work of the player, but my character thought he was being difficult to work with at the time. I believe that Tezi died soon after this, leaving Meg was the highest ranked one left standing.

I reasoned that perhaps it might be a good idea to take a swipe at, or kill, Meg, because if the new leadership rolled in, and she wasn't there, then things might smooth over more quickly. There was also the fact that Kadius as dealing with a bit of unnecessary back and forth with the Atrium over "party rights" and interior design contracts, which shouldn't have even been a thing we needed to tousle with the school over, but it was what we were simultaneously being told to do by our Storytellers, and told was "beneath us". It was a very mixed message, and this is important -

   * The Atrium was supposedly a school, but it was sequestering all of the nobles and high crust people away behind a membership. They were a Minor Merchant House and making it hard for the Major Merchant houses to work because they were operating outside their role by being a tea house. As for myself personally, I was not being "allowed" to ASK for a membership, and I was not being allowed to JOIN by my Storyteller at the time. So it meant, FAR less business. Basically, they were setting up the leader of the Atrium to fail and be killed unless she opened her doors - and... it wasn't really happening, she had about 4 different contracts on her life.

  *THAT is important because MEG came to town and started selling her goods in the middle of a silent turf war. Right in front of the people feuding. If she had known, had agents in town, or stayed away, she wouldn't have gotten batted at. But, she did, and it scared her so much she didn't want to come back. I remember that she got caught up later, and that was also a part of things, I think.

I believe after this was the Ocotillo festival (I know that I may be getting some of the order of events confused). Kadius bribed the Templars to raid Kurac's wagon, and I'm sorry. I know that was a HUGE inconvenience, but it was good, you have to admit... We were also trying to get them taxed and everything else to keep them from participating and joining in on the profits because of their behavior during negotiations.

After Meg died, Joyner (Kadius' NPC) comes barging into the argosy where Maristen and Zhaka lived, and starts demanding to search us. I have zero idea what is going on and he's laying into us hard. When my character speaks up, Joyner calls him a "worm", which makes Zhaka step in front of Maristen and tell Joyner to remember that my character is a family member and mind his tongue. It pisses Joyner off, but he changes subjects. Zhaka admits to doing what he had to do for the house, but as I player, I'm pretty flabbergasted by the pure anger in the room, let alone Joyner going off on me, because he never had before - Joyner calls us both stupid because the Guild is beholden to Kurac, so hiring them to attack Kurac would never work.

*This fact was not in Kadian documentation, and I had specifically asked for any pertinent info when I was made a Leader. Apparently, as far as I can piece together, the Storyteller took it on themselves to animate the world and pass along the information, because they were very firm about Kurac knowing everything, despite the fact that it made little sense. It was the last time I, the player, hired or trusted the guild for anything because I lacked this insight, and I ended up making Guild members pay for the supposed "betrayal" after. The only thing my character knew in regards to the Guild was that he was supposed to pay the proper protections, get the markings, and kill off anyone that stepped too heavily on his toes - otherwise, live and let live.

The fact is, it was a very strange response from Joyner - to demand that we bend our necks and give up instead of trying to work with us. Zhaka kept asking him if he had been somehow been nibbled on by brain worms, and I hilariously kept thinking of maggots in his brain because I hadn't heard the term "Worm" before in regards to... that. Joryner denied it, and got alarmed and angry when it looked like he was going to be attacked, but after things calmed a little, Zhaka stormed off, and I couldn't blame him. I really wanted to as well, and wondered if I shouldn't have in the days after. Zhaka's head was delivered to Kurac. Joyner apologized to my character, and handed Maristen Zhaka's ring finger, telling him that it was all his mess to clean up or he was fucked. Maristen wrapped and buried the bit of his cousin in the garden and in the years after would go and "talk" to Zhaka when he needed some quiet time.

As for the rest of the conflict, Salarr was still and ally, but they were having their own breaks with family and major issues. Mannivichi, Kadius' First Hunter, was attacked by a half-elf sergeant while in Luirs, and was later killed. Albie also vanished around this time, I think, but Maristen didn't have the resources to figure out what happened. This is around the time that Maristen grew a pair and started killing people that got in his way.

Kurac's new family members screamed profanities about Meg's death at Maristen, and were showing deference to a person that was not their family member yet over him. They demanded 50,000 sid from Maristen personally (which was a harken back to when Maristen asked for 50,000 sid for Mannivichi's attack. The difference between the two instances is that Maristen opened up with 50,000 to negotiate and was met with offense, and when he was told to pay 50,000 and balked, their NPC merchant was kidnapped and trade was halted).

Trade was only "halted" for Maristen's particular company, so to speak, and he was told by Kadius that all the other companies could get through and that his problems were his own and to fix it. So... Maristen turned to the nobles and Templars of the city and proposed making a new trade route through Ten Serak. There was enthusiastic agreement. However, Kadius again said no (they had been attempting to discourage participation in the Ankheg event at ALL, and were refusing to help and actively hindering a lot).

So.. Sometimes when you are hit with a no, you just prepare to do things anyway. I was also getting very sick, as a player, of listening to the half-elf character constantly contacting me via the Way and mentioning how he was going to "piss on your grave" and stuff like that. It was more than I wanted to deal with. He had some assumption that my character wanted to kill him, but I didn't have that reach yet, and was mostly trying to end the conflict so that I could regroup.

I also refused to pay out of pocket for the negotiation. I gave them the 50k out of the clan account and had done with it. I wanted to buy my hunters armor and told the Storytellers that I was getting fed up with it all, and I wanted help ending it, because the verbal abuse was getting stupid. Yeah, I had participated just the same as everyone else, but I wasn't a villain and I was ready for it to be over, as I figured I had played along long enough. It's probably obvious that I'm getting testy thinking back on it. When Ten Serak was ruled out as an option, I was polling Allanak and cajoling the leadership to try to take the Outpost. It wouldn't have happened, but I was willing to do whatever it took, if it meant dismantling that place brick by brick by myself to be left alone.

Kurac and Kadius settled the dispute, and I was sort of bemoaning the loss of Tuluk, because I REALLY wanted a change of scenery after all that when I made a new character. Yeesh. As much as I grumble about it, it was fun, and I think I got a lot out of it, learning how to play, but when the argosy wheel snapped, I was done. I wasn't, in any universe, gonna talk with the Kuraci again for at least another year or two. Too soon. I'm sure you were all lovely, but I bet you all feel me from the other end of that muddle. I just wrote a novel, and that was exhausting to recall.

So yeah... improvements? Let's have both more and less of THAT. I was gonna format it and make it pretty, but screw it. bathe in that ramble, and I don't like to be grumpy, but whomever that Storyteller was, I hope your ears are burning a little. My character, like many others who got through all that, deserved a promotion and a trophy for all that fuss. My recall may not be perfect, and I wasn't any angel, but I didn't see any collusion in all that. We were almost chewing on all that paper writing out those dang contracts and those meetings to get it all done to RL hours.

You wanna know what being an Overseer is? This is it. On TOP of filling orders. Man.

[Incognito]

GMH absolutely compete against each other. It just is not in our RL understanding of how businesses are "competition". We think of it as — if they are making clothing, and I am making knives, how could we possibly be in competition with one another?

This is not how it plays out in places like Allanak and Tuluk, where you need politics to survive the onslaught of demanded fines, taxes, bribes, and "pocket nobles/Templars" to assist in the survival of your House. This is where the Agent branch comes into play and is IMHO vastly more enjoyable than playing a Merchant.

Houses vie against each other pretty constantly. It isn't always out in the open. Sometimes they are maneuvering for better deals from Templar Soandso while disadvantaging another House. Sometimes one Agent is putting out a hit on another House's Merchant for undercutting them at an Auction. There's a thousand reasons for GMH to not get along, and only a handful of reasons they should. Conflict is interesting when contrasted with peace — so there have been periods of time where that mutual animosity is subtle or behind the scenes.

But I don't think we should perpetuate the notion that GMH get along with one another just because their monopolies focus on different commodities. Politically speaking, they are certainly at odds with one another, as "FAVOR" is a finite resource when it comes to Templars and Nobles.

Competition and conflict between GMH's (for resources or favor or intel or overall dominance even) is fine and actually healthy, as long as it is on an equal footing, and subjected to the same restrictions and limitations by PCs and NPCs and the World (i.e. Staff).

Saying anything more on this subject would be considered whining and IC sensitive, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited to add : Although, I will admit and agree, that a fresh-out-of-chargen GMH leader PC cannot and should not expect to have the same power and influence as their counterpart in another GMH, who has been around for a while and has built up relationships that result in what might "seem" to be disproportionate advantages.

[Decameron]

*Take it with a grain of salt, as I've only had one PC GMHer in over 25+ years of playing, this is just my personal observation in that time*

I'll be touching briefly on player perspective and expectation, since that is something I believe we can all change. I am sure there are other areas others have touched on, but as noted above, there seems to be a trend or natural human instinct to log right in and swing for the fences.

It's sort of like prison rules mentality has bled into the concept of this specific role that I rarely see anywhere else in game, for example:

Take a newly app'd Borsail Noble, they aren't going to:
- Immediately try to kill a Senior Noble of House Oash (without consequence)
- Try to take over Jal's sewer responsibilities (without consequences and a lot of odd looks from their own family)
- 'Shake Things Up' by conquering a new outpost without involving anyone else
- Gun immediately for promotion (from what I've seen, if you think you're playing in the role for less than an OOC year and think you're getting a promotion, you're wrong)
- Go super off-doc (trying to hire known magickers, mind-benders, etc. Likely getting stored in the process)

Even with the competition actually built into the Templars, you aren't going to have a fresh-faced nobody Blue take a look at an established Lord Inquisitor, compare their two month-long stint to the years and hundreds of OOC hours of connections, networking, experience, effort, etc and mutter, "Hold my farmer's blood, I got this."  I am not saying these objectives aren't all well and good for the long-term (mind-bender / magicker hiring aside), but just because you've spent 7 hours IC doesn't mean these things are going to be achievable. 

The Noble analogy is also interesting to me because it points to specific areas that the Noble Houses are centered upon, and I feel this should be considered similar to the GMHs, but which is often overlooked. They do compete for natural resources and influence, but their markets are more or less settled to my understanding. I don't think Kadius should be trying to dive into the spice trade, Salarr trying to build wagons, or Kurac trying to get into fine silks or weaponry. They have their respective monopolies for a reason, and these trades earn each GMH millions of 'sid every year, and have for hundreds of IC years. That isn't going to change without some major effort, nor should it.

tldr: I am all for MCB, but just as the Allanaki Nobility hasn't torn each other apart over their own occasional squabbles, I view the GMHs as siblings rather than at war with one another.

That being said, I do feel it is one of the most labor intensive, challenging,  often thankless, and overlooked positions that I have ever experienced in the game. The challenge is its own reward.  The documentation could use a little love as things have naturally changed. However, as challenging as it is, it does share similarities with other leadership roles within the game: you need patience and you need to establish yourself first and foremost before potentially pursuing some of those big ticket items.

[Barsook]

tldr: I am all for MCB, but just as the Allanaki Nobility hasn't torn each other apart over their own occasional squabbles, I view the GMHs as siblings rather than at war with one another.

You nailed it and from other posts above, I see the take away is that competition isn't much in resources but it's political. And as Decameron said, plus one on updating the docs.

[Jihelu]

I would say that competition probably isn't as fine as it sounds in theory, primarily due to the way the houses have formed themselves. Competition works if you're providing competing services. A northern merchant house that supplies building materials, vs a southern house that provides building materials. Both competing for contracts in Luirs.

That doesn't work when your house is providing substantially different products. There can be a bit of competition in a few areas but they are few, such as Salarri armor and gear vs Kuraci outdoor gear and bows and what not, but Borsail isn't going to be fighting Sath anytime soon over slavery.
They've contracted themselves into their own merchant kingdoms because they knew it would help themselves, any energy focused on 'competition' is keeping smaller merchant houses in their place or absorbing them (As the merchant houses have done before).

[Derain]

One thing, the world should re-act accordingly if you murder a merchant family member..

Templar executes a merchant publicly for some dumbass reason or no reason? Well? The NPC family with there huge wealth should make the Templars life hell..

Oh you killed Bob Salarr? wellll all the legions have just taken a 10% cost increase on cod pieces across the board..

Oh shit you killed Joe Bob Kurac? Welp suddenly there is no spice for any of the Templarates Mul's in the city.

Kadius? oh well.. ok but now Great Lord whosowhatsit isn't getting his lace thong for another 2 years.

[Jihelu]

One thing, the world should re-act accordingly if you murder a merchant family member..

Templar executes a merchant publicly for some dumbass reason or no reason? Well? The NPC family with there huge wealth should make the Templars life hell..

Oh you killed Bob Salarr? wellll all the legions have just taken a 10% cost increase on cod pieces across the board..

Oh shit you killed Joe Bob Kurac? Welp suddenly there is no spice for any of the Templarates Mul's in the city.

Kadius? oh well.. ok but now Great Lord whosowhatsit isn't getting his lace thong for another 2 years.

Yeah, this is a politics nightmare that the game does express sometimes but the virtual world would have the most impact.

Even if the family member was a bit of a fuck up, if they were a huge fuck up the family wouldn't have them in place to be executed they'd do it themselves, the Templarate just expressed that the Merchant Houses 'aren't as special' as they feel they are.

Merchants would be calling in favors or politicking with nobles over this.
They'd be politicking with other Templars who are more in their pocket.
They've be raising hell depending on how important the member was to their contacts in the Senate (Don't they have seats on the Senate or do nobles represent them?) If they are less important I imagine most bitching is the backroom/way kind of bitching.

I imagine there would be less of a 'measured response' as simple as 'They killed our person, haha fuck their prices' as that angers people you can't afford to anger.  Amos Kurac and House Kurac aren't as important as the Templarate, sorry but sucks to suck. However inconveniencing a single Templar, or a small group of them, won't get your entire ass introuble. Once Samos the Red starts getting inconvenienced he flies into the Estate and starts asking questions.

Nobles/Templars aren't commoners. inconveniencing them gets them mad, not inconvenienced.  A commoner gets a 10% increase on their product and goes 'Damn that sucks'. A noble does and they start plotting or finding someone else to do their stuff. (Or in my case, I get a bad deal from a Merchant House and my staffer tells me it's a great idea to go around them. Then his staffer tells me 'Uh no sorry uh trade deals I guess deal with the enormous price hike'. And then the plot dies!)

[Hestia]

One thing, the world should re-act accordingly if you murder a merchant family member..

Templar executes a merchant publicly for some dumbass reason or no reason? Well? The NPC family with there huge wealth should make the Templars life hell..

Oh you killed Bob Salarr? wellll all the legions have just taken a 10% cost increase on cod pieces across the board..

Oh shit you killed Joe Bob Kurac? Welp suddenly there is no spice for any of the Templarates Mul's in the city.

Kadius? oh well.. ok but now Great Lord whosowhatsit isn't getting his lace thong for another 2 years.

It depends on the merchant and the reason for killing them.  Not everyone has access to all the information leading up to the kill.  A hypothetical though:

Bob Salarr gets killed. You know this. You know he was killed because Lord Templar Amos caught him overcharging the AOD for armor.

What you don't know, is that Bob Salarr intentionally overcharged the AOD, because the AOD QUIETLY eliminated Bob's aide, Talia, who they knew was a mindbender. Bob also knew that Talia was a mindbender, and didn't immediately give her up to the templarate. The Templarate discovered that Bob knew. The Templarate questioned Bob over the Way following Talia's execution, and Bob admitted that he knew it, but he loved his mindbender and she was a good armor maker so he kept her around, plus she was manipulating all his minions to do better work, and that's always good for business.  When the AOD killed her, things started falling apart for him. So he started charging the AOD double to punish them for interfering in Salarr business.

Except - mindbenders are absolutely NOT Salarr business. They're Templar business.

But you didn't know any of that. All you know is he was executed for overcharging the AOD, and that seemed like a lousy reason, and the templar was over-reaching his authority, and so Salarr should come down hard on the templar and punish the entire city by refusing to make armor for the AOD for the next year.

You'd be 100% wrong about that.  Salarr should be presenting gifts to the templar for cleaning up what was turning into a HUGE mess for Salarr, and apologizing profusely for allowing the mess to exist in the first place.

[Halcyon]

I'd like to suggest GMH products get separated into three groups.

Restricted House goods I think should be added to a set of vendors only GMH Merchants + can access.   The GMHs know they will sell Oash or Kassigarh more armor and uniforms.  There are probably a few stacks made somewhere so that good relations can be retained with the nobility.

Most of the rest of the item list should require a pc craft, AND pc gathered materials, with all recipes published on clan forums.  This makes hunters and crafters needed.  This makes some goods cyclic based on material access.   This makes part of a Merchant or Head Crafters job maintenance of the materials stores.

The rarest and best of items should always come from orders.   I see logical problems with allowing pcs to craft metal, for instance.   Access to the highest tier weapons and armor should politically restricted, and I like a ST being able to use these requests to generate plots, bidding wars, etc.

[Dan]

Tiered reward system based on how much coin the leader PC deposits into the House bank account.

Ten tiers granting the PC a mix of item options, unique tools, areas, etc. to culminate in a House NPC that can sell them extremely rare and exotic items.

First tier 5k deposited. Tenth tier 250k deposited over a lifetime.

[Night Queen]

Nah it's better to encourage people to roleplay with other characters, if you can just turn coins into goods then it makes so much obsolete, it's putting a dam on a river with all the hunters and grebbers and their escorts and diplomatic agreements for protection/access downstream at the other end, if rare resources can just get magicked out of thin air.

Even staff do this too much sometimes, a memorable time I remember was seeing someone in a full outfit of SOMETHING RARE that apparently they just had plenty "in storage" lying around. Unlimited basically. It wasn't very believable IC and almost got that character killed, but figured out it was not their fault and it was stupidness about how merchant stuff is done, it just seemed so weird that I just ignored it to not make the RP jarring, it didn't really make sense since everyone had been saying how hard it is to get this stuff and making agreements for it to be gathered and brought to them. But then someone on staff just hands them all they need so that never happend. I wondered at first why there was no demand anymore. Then figured it out on my own that this is apparently "just how stuff is done".

HOWEVER it seems like later on new staff tried to cut that back a bit and make people actually have to work for materials, resources, and create the RP stories that happen naturally by not having everything be hand-outs and every thing has more of a story to how it was created (for instance some rare stuff being from whole expeditions that were a RPT for another clan and paid for in blood), it's MUCH more interesting and means merchants actually have to make deals and not just havbe everything easy where it's a closed loop of the house -> client and hiding in wagons kanking gross muarkis in between.

[Dan]

Nah it's better to encourage people to roleplay with other characters, if you can just turn coins into goods then it makes so much obsolete, it's putting a dam on a river with all the hunters and grebbers and their escorts and diplomatic agreements for protection/access downstream at the other end, if rare resources can just get magicked out of thin air.

I imagined the GMH leaders would make their coin from other players. Causing them to seek more sales and deals to make coin for the House. You're saying incentivizing GMH PCs to collect coin to dump into the House coffers would limit RP with other players?

If people are making coin in clans by crafting and selling to NPCs that is horribly poor form IMO and should stop.

As for rare resources being magicked out of thin air- that's not what I was implying at all, but rather one-off or rare items that are in the database that don't really ever see the light of day that may not necessarily have crafting recipes or if they do, are so convoluted that they'd never be stumbled upon. These items could be loaded onto an NPC only an experienced player, that has proven their worth to the House, would be granted access to in order to leverage this stuff for political and economical power.

[WithSprinkles]

Just from the experience of playing ONE GMH leader, coin was very important, but favors and friendships were equally as important.

I wanted to replace the wagon that my character crashed, and in the tier list of goals that I had for Maristen, that was a huge one. It took RL years to accomplish, and when it finally came down to it, it took a lot of materials and manpower. I had to sit down with Tezi from Kurac and make a rough design and contract. We decided on the number of rooms and features, as well as the layout. That was a long and intense meeting, that was also echoed in requests and meetings with NPCs.

Then we discussed materials and prices, meetings that were also echoed with NPCs and in requests for logistics. A Storyteller would be dedicating their time to this, after all, so it had to be worth their while. This is where the cost of every nail and board became important. ARGOSIES AND WAGONS are not CHEAP. I learned how dizzying costs can be when it comes down to a single nail, and started finding out how to cut prices and find suppliers. More meetings by Way or request.

Then came finding people to gather the materials. Here is where hiring Byn and other outside agencies is inefficient. The Byn is there to make money, and more power to them for that. For exotic hunts, they would be where I would go, but not to get me 100 or 200 lengths of wood or MORE. That needs to be in house, sorry. I struggled with that, at first, but vowed to make Kadius' hunting branch strong, and I did. There was the OPTION to buy the materials virtually or through Kurac, but that option was insane. Tezi was quoting outpost prices for materials, and when you look at global prices, a person can do better - especially when you have the option to travel or craft your own things. No hate there, I would have tried to bump up my profit in her shoes as well!

I was trying to back indie mercenary companies so they could use the MMH system, but people kept dying, so it wasn't working. I was getting pushback for properly setting up Morin's at the time, but could see the potential of pumping resources in that direction. I didn't have the experience to really push for that, so mostly let it be.

Long story short, we got the wagon built, it was BEAUTIFUL, and I was almost afraid to drive it anywhere. It was such a relief to have fixed a bit of the game world that I had taken away. When I heard that it had been crashed, I was bummed, but amused, because I NOW know that wagons crashing is a meme around here, but at least I got the red out of my own ledger, so to speak. Whatever storyteller wrote up the designs outdid themselves - it was really worth all the work, and enough to get a person to cry with relief when it was all finished. That took literal years, but I looked like a scream emoji when it happened, so I felt it was worth it.

-------

I didn't really get the concept of bribes until I observed other people doing it during the Senate RPT. After that, Maristen gave away exotic clothing, or furniture to keep people happy, but before that... he gave Templar Alveron a little cactus plant as an apartment warming gift. And bless that man, he smiled at it, and put it in a prominent position on his shelf.

After it clicked with me, the player, how much of a difference having a luxury item could make at just the right moment, or how to use my character's position and influence, my ability to wield it went up. Before that, I was scrambling to fill orders. After that realization, I started focusing on delegation, contracts, and politics. I think this moment here is when a GMH family member becomes an AGENT.

I also started to begin to worry and wonder about my character's footprint on the game world and "less is more". Being around a lot when you get to a certain level can sometimes be counter productive. It seemed to sometimes slow things when I was physically in the workspace - I think it was the having your "boss" walk in effect. I wanted to make sure everyone else was having fun, so I started logging in a touch less, and being in the main rooms less often unless I had specific things to put out. I wasn't sure how to maintain the needed presence (and threat in being present to keep everyone protected and profitable) and still keep people at ease.


-------

For Kadius, one thing that I found was more important than coin, was influence and what was seen. The statue outside the Fale estate was envisioned and commissioned by Lord Timotheo, then designed and crafted by Maristen with the expertise of Macian. Later, Maristen was asked to design a tapestry for their halls, and then redesigned the daily wear of their house aides. (the parti-colored robes). Kadius is supposed to be the pulse of fashion and influence culture in Allanak. That, above daily sales, is what I was driving them to be.

When crafters were hired, they were asked about their innovative spirit, and what they could bring to the table. Hunters were encouraged to create, but I wanted to be less dependent on the Byn for materials, even if we used them for escorts. It wasn't cost efficient. The warehouse of materials didn't matter - we needed exotics, and I meant to get them. In order for that to happen, we needed crafters that wanted MORE. Amazing things come of it. It was a very good time. I wish that I had more experience under my belt for it all, but I'm glad for the patience people displayed, because it was fun. Amazing shoes, bloodball, zeers, gardening shears, lovely lingerie items, glowing jewelry, lanterns, furniture, all kinds of things came from the house at that time. Organizations commissioned the house for awards (it makes sense for a Kadian badge/medal/ribbon to be more prestigious than any other).

Basically, a diamond ring is always going to be beautiful, but a Tiffany ring is always going to be a Tiffany ring. The name is what matters, and the brand had better be delivering quality or it looses its luster. You can't walk into shops for some luxury goods in the real world and just buy their goods, even if you DO have the money. Because you don't have the clout. THAT IS KADIUS.

When crafters first start out, sales is where they begin. They need that seed money so that they can establish themselves later. It takes money to be able to buy from the warehouse, or fund their political careers. Money will ALWAYS be important, but after a certain amount of time, they are either content to stay at that level, and there is nothing wrong with that, or they get deeper into the workings of the house. Some enjoy training others or take on other responsibilities, but sales and crafting is where people begin. Toward the end of my character's career, I was thinking of sales in terms of building contracts, what products were getting sold where and for what price, and was contemplating zeroing out someone's bank account over morning coffee with a Nenyuki official because they were potentially stealing from the house (I didn't do it, and this is tied to character footprint - at some point you get very powerful, and have to consider your actions carefully and with empathy).

-----

I know I beat the drum a lot, but support for leadership characters and otherwise is key. Looking into issues when they arise is important. Also, yeah, from Hestia's example, I see that not every angle of a situation can be known by one party. My examples are only from my own point of view, and THAT viewpoint is from an introvert. A viewpoint can't be dismissed, however, just because they don't know everything - not unless all the cards are laid on the table. Find out IC is good for new stories, but they can't be held sacred for decades, because that just perpetuates, "You don't know the whole story" narrative, that can be frustrating. Like... after a certain amount of time, when does it become acceptable to pull back that veil? D&D stories are fun because they are shared and loved by all, even the ones that make people cringe. The richness and nuance of the game is lost behind a veil. Lift it and share. There is a lot of good in there. The forums should be bursting with tales, and not waiting for them to be shared in the request tool.

[Night Queen]

That is a great writeup and thank you for sharing your stories now you can, it's really nice that you still remember so well There is Biographies that can later be converted to Original Submissions so it's much better than it could be I think logging is really good because it's hard to keep up with writing everything down at the time when stuff is going on
(and the server should really start backing up the old logs instead of deleting them, it's so sad when you think of all the good moments that never made it to having a write up because the player that played the character is gone, stuff like that - feels like a kind of cultural vandalism just throwing it all away!)

It's important to not make those super special rare things a hand-out because otherwise it makes those people who create crafter characters nothing to aim for and cheapens the whole thing - if it's obvious that merchant can just ask for a npc to do it, why bother playing a crafter character at all? If their presence actually slows things down because without them it's all instant NPC spawn items, it would make it so hard for people to be motivated. Losing an experienced crafter should be a big loss, not a minor inconvenience to cash-flow - that'd make people treat the characters better than conveyor belts, and make more people willing to play them.

Maybe have the recipes for clan-only recipes on the clan forums since they can't be copied out to the wider game anyway (maybe not exact item names for the rarer stuff but clues to lead people down the path of finding out about things not in the help files - you can learn this stuff as a merchant that stays inside a town as easily as a sun runner could, because people love telling their adventure stories). The special stuff should create RP and adventures to get!

That is the kind of thing I think is great about giving people challenges to succeed or fail - succeeding shouldn't be the default, people shouldn't be able to breeze through it with all the hard parts done for them and aggravating everyone else that doesn't get the easy mode version of merchanting! It seems like how Tuluk has been set up was really a breath of fresh air and staff are trying to genuinely give independents a chance to compete which is GREAT and really shakes things up - instead of it being too virtualised, it creates so much stuff from the chain of dominos

[askaran]

Bring back hunters/guards. The number one argument I hear whenever this is brought up is that an independent can make more money etc.  But the comradery and dynamic of a group of merchant house hunters/guards/soldiers whatever, is a great thing and something that isn't met by a group of people who sit in a warehouse and craft all-day. Some of the most fun I've ever had as a leader was as First Hunter, even if I died like an idiot but that's my own fault.

[Night Queen]

Similar concepts are pretty much essential to how Tuluk was set up and brings that kinda stuff back, but have to find out IC

[Dan]

I'd agree with the ability for GMH to hire their own hunters again.

[Night Queen]

I'm not exaggerating

[askaran]

Also, someone else already brought it up, but all Merchant leaders are good for nowadays are getting assassinated. Maybe if they had more badass hunters/guards around them like they used to it would be a -teensie- bit harder to do that? Maybe?

[WithSprinkles]

One other bit of tradition that I did note:

I am not certain how it happens in other organizations, but GMHs pass down secrets orally. Very rarely are these things written down (for obvious reasons). So... I have seen time and again that apprentices get picked out, and then they follow the leader around, get introduced about, and run errands. It is surprisingly hard to find people that have an interest in leadership, an aptitude, and can follow through. Running an event from start to finish takes time - especially with the wildcards of other PC's time, Storyteller time, food decay, gathering supplies, etc. If you are making an event up from scratch, explaining what you even want to do, and convincing people they want to participate is part of it.

Certain roles are not always about eliminating the enemy - that is a last resort if you can help it - and it was the first lesson that was drilled into my character when an indie was "stepping on our turf". Yes, sometimes you squish that sucker flat, but everyone has a possible use. When it comes to family members, if you piss off an older and more established cousin, and they aren't giving you the orally passed down traditions, recipes, and information that you might need. It all being posted on the GDB is not always ideal. Sometimes stuff is "secret to the ring", so to speak. You only learned it when you were lifesworn, or blooded family. It makes zero sense for it to be posted, but it could be requested or learned.

Cooperation is key to some extent, even across families, because all families have things that only the other families can make for each other for certain important events. The higher ups would not be thrilled to have these traditions broken. There are some things that should be documented, such as a clan's history and their ties, and other things that should not, such as the exact markup on certain goods, and trade rates. I think this is a good example of  IC information that should stay IC and not be posted because of the possibility of abuse, its in character allure, or its spoiler-ish nature. Naturally, there are other examples, but this is specific.

Not everyone wants to play this way, but this could also be why the GMH role can be very difficult to play, at times. It can be played casually with few problems, but there is potential to shake the game's economy and be a dominating force while being a squishy if you have the determination.

Edit - And yes, I stopped playing my character before the hunters were removed from the merchant houses, but the hunters were such a wonderful part of the GMH experience. Them being there alongside the merchants was pretty integral. The crafters being happy and secure in their presence and sparring with them, being escorted in the streets, and being guarded while grebbing. it was nice. And the crafters would repair the hunter's armor, and bandage their wounds. It was perfect synergy. Not to mention just being able to sit comfortably in the same space and talk and chat, and craft together.

[Blink]

To those wishing for the return of House Hunters:

It happened a few months ago.   

[Barsook]

But I think the limit of 2 is what some of us don't want.

[Derain]

One thing, the world should re-act accordingly if you murder a merchant family member..

Templar executes a merchant publicly for some dumbass reason or no reason? Well? The NPC family with there huge wealth should make the Templars life hell..

Oh you killed Bob Salarr? wellll all the legions have just taken a 10% cost increase on cod pieces across the board..

Oh shit you killed Joe Bob Kurac? Welp suddenly there is no spice for any of the Templarates Mul's in the city.

Kadius? oh well.. ok but now Great Lord whosowhatsit isn't getting his lace thong for another 2 years.

It depends on the merchant and the reason for killing them.  Not everyone has access to all the information leading up to the kill.  A hypothetical though:

Bob Salarr gets killed. You know this. You know he was killed because Lord Templar Amos caught him overcharging the AOD for armor.

What you don't know, is that Bob Salarr intentionally overcharged the AOD, because the AOD QUIETLY eliminated Bob's aide, Talia, who they knew was a mindbender. Bob also knew that Talia was a mindbender, and didn't immediately give her up to the templarate. The Templarate discovered that Bob knew. The Templarate questioned Bob over the Way following Talia's execution, and Bob admitted that he knew it, but he loved his mindbender and she was a good armor maker so he kept her around, plus she was manipulating all his minions to do better work, and that's always good for business.  When the AOD killed her, things started falling apart for him. So he started charging the AOD double to punish them for interfering in Salarr business.

Except - mindbenders are absolutely NOT Salarr business. They're Templar business.

But you didn't know any of that. All you know is he was executed for overcharging the AOD, and that seemed like a lousy reason, and the templar was over-reaching his authority, and so Salarr should come down hard on the templar and punish the entire city by refusing to make armor for the AOD for the next year.

You'd be 100% wrong about that.  Salarr should be presenting gifts to the templar for cleaning up what was turning into a HUGE mess for Salarr, and apologizing profusely for allowing the mess to exist in the first place.

Everything you said is spot on but I was more talking about the Blue robes who assume and don't really know, and just kill the merchant anyway. I can't give examples for a bit but there was definitely an assumer who never got checked and kept some merchant from even stopping in Nak.

[Fredd]

One thing, the world should re-act accordingly if you murder a merchant family member..

Templar executes a merchant publicly for some dumbass reason or no reason? Well? The NPC family with there huge wealth should make the Templars life hell..

Oh you killed Bob Salarr? wellll all the legions have just taken a 10% cost increase on cod pieces across the board..

Oh shit you killed Joe Bob Kurac? Welp suddenly there is no spice for any of the Templarates Mul's in the city.

Kadius? oh well.. ok but now Great Lord whosowhatsit isn't getting his lace thong for another 2 years.

It depends on the merchant and the reason for killing them.  Not everyone has access to all the information leading up to the kill.  A hypothetical though:

Bob Salarr gets killed. You know this. You know he was killed because Lord Templar Amos caught him overcharging the AOD for armor.

What you don't know, is that Bob Salarr intentionally overcharged the AOD, because the AOD QUIETLY eliminated Bob's aide, Talia, who they knew was a mindbender. Bob also knew that Talia was a mindbender, and didn't immediately give her up to the templarate. The Templarate discovered that Bob knew. The Templarate questioned Bob over the Way following Talia's execution, and Bob admitted that he knew it, but he loved his mindbender and she was a good armor maker so he kept her around, plus she was manipulating all his minions to do better work, and that's always good for business.  When the AOD killed her, things started falling apart for him. So he started charging the AOD double to punish them for interfering in Salarr business.

Except - mindbenders are absolutely NOT Salarr business. They're Templar business.

But you didn't know any of that. All you know is he was executed for overcharging the AOD, and that seemed like a lousy reason, and the templar was over-reaching his authority, and so Salarr should come down hard on the templar and punish the entire city by refusing to make armor for the AOD for the next year.

You'd be 100% wrong about that.  Salarr should be presenting gifts to the templar for cleaning up what was turning into a HUGE mess for Salarr, and apologizing profusely for allowing the mess to exist in the first place.

Everything you said is spot on but I was more talking about the Blue robes who assume and don't really know, and just kill the merchant anyway. I can't give examples for a bit but there was definitely an assumer who never got checked and kept some merchant from even stopping in Nak.

I've played a few GMH family members. And I play them well. Why? Because I have the time to dedicate to it worth at least 2 characters worth of time. One for handling order, training, and other inner house stuff. And one for politics and public facing stuff. Three if you want to have a personal/love life.

GMH family members work well when the crew is well established, and you have at least 1 non family member with ordering authority. But it takes a while to get that going. So my suggestion is for any GMH role calls, to have a spot of a family member, and another for a non family merchant.  To give the non-family roll some enticement, throw in some maxed out crafting skills at least 2, but I honestly say just max them all out. Nothing like explaining to people you don't have any crafters that know how to craft, right other former GMH family members?

As for the above quote. I had a Kuraci family member who did just that. Did not end well. Let's just say that.

[SpyGuy]

Damn.  I've been pondering this question for awhile and Fredd basically said the short version of what I think is needed.  It's a 2 person job at least unless you can be online a -lot-.  And even then if it all depends on one PC if they're on vacation then the whole thing grinds to a halt.  I have seen what appears to be staff being open to this and hope future staffing in GMH tries to fill the spot with 2 roles in most cases.

So the longer version of my thoughts:

When putting out role calls for GMH there should be at least 2 PCs capable of selling items to players.  That might mean 2 family members or offering spots for lower ranking long term employees to be apped in.

I think PC GMH should be seen as a semi-independent crew of House operations.  Meaning they are expected to act in the House's interest and contribute to their core business but also are given some freedom to use their crew as they see fit.  Think Expansion Division or various times when Kurac had a giant presence.  I would still keep a firm clan cap of 6 or so members in the crew but allow the PC leadership to determine the make up of that crew.  So if a GMH crew wanted to be a bunch of hunters/soldiers and have a focus on exploiting region X for resources that would be possible. This might change over time as employees die/leave.

I don't think PCs in a crew should get put in a box that they're a crafter and only a crafter.  Why couldn't a crafter be used to pilot the wagon/cart, help with getting materials and be the soft squishy target everyone is defending?  I think conceptualizing GMH players as a crew that might do things differently than the House's normal employment regulations would allow for a more diverse way of people playing in GMH that really utilizes the class/subclass structure we have.  This might just be me being greedy and wanting to do it all but I think there's demand for these roles being more flexible.

I really didn't like the idea of having 2 hunters to each House and then encouraging Houses to work together in the new system.  I think parts look good on paper but time zones / chain of command / IC politics / etc. turns me off from this system.  Especially if it's coupled with a restriction on who those hunters can go hunt with.  I play off peak a lot.  If I meet a fellow wilderness player IC I don't want clan rules telling me I can't go hunt with that person because they're not in a GMH.  Same with sparring tbh, GMH should be hiring tutors to train their hunters etc.  Also good hunting trips ideally have like 3-5 players imo so the 2 per House rule rankles me.

[Barsook]

I totally agree with giving the GMH leadership freedom on what roles are needed and allowing dual duties/jack of all trades. That doesn't happen in real life. Afterthought, that didn't make sense because I think doesn't happen in real life, but it would be nice for some policy change due to shrinking player-base.

As for having more then two PC's for selling, you will be running in the risk of miscommunication since we aren't allowed to use the clan boards as a order tracker.

[Evilone]

GMH should ALWAYS have at least 2 family PC's IMO. They are huge parts of the game, and need to be accessible over various time zones, and it is so much more fun when you have fellow family to interact with, and numerous other GMH family about to socialize with, and plot with or against. I have fond memories of coming in as a junior agent of Kurac and having Hurlen-da above me, and dealing with Tasok and Kevak Salarr, and Siamaca Kadius.

[Fragmented]

I know I'm going to be cursed for this - but I have always been of the opinion you should close GMHs to players. OR - remove the entire merchant aspect of it. I've played one, awhile back, but I did have a Salarr merchant. You're a vending machine, but not through the fault of the buyer - it's simply the only way to get things that aren't spawned in a shop. So if you're the buyer, your main drive is typically - when do I need to be online to catch this person, and as soon as you DO catch them, your overriding question whether you make smalltalk or not is: Do you have my stuff?

I propose that ONLY blooded family members play, if at all, and their primary goal should be large scale stuff on furthering the house, politics, whatever they want. MAYBE they can take orders for custom, one of a kind items from those wealthy enough to afford them. Otherwise - have /all/ GMH items be available in a shop /somewhere/. If it's northern themed, only in the north, southern, only in the south, etc. Maybe put them on a cycle like Kadian fashion. Low Sun? Oh, it's spiked armor, scrub camo, blue clothing and warhammer month. Don't let them buy other people's crap (for example, Salarr shops would ONLY buy Salarr items) because why would they want to sell inferior junk anyway? To make up for it, have the indie npc merchants buy 8 of an item or something.

Just my 2 cents.

[Fredd]

I totally agree with giving the GMH leadership freedom on what roles are needed and allowing dual duties/jack of all trades. That doesn't happen in real life. Afterthought, that didn't make sense because I think doesn't happen in real life, but it would be nice for some policy change due to shrinking player-base.

As for having more then two PC's for selling, you will be running in the risk of miscommunication since we aren't allowed to use the clan boards as a order tracker.

Communication isn't an issue, honestly. Most people know who they ordered from, and will say "I ordered X from your Merchant, but it's been a while. Can you check on it."

Then I either meet up IC, or shoot a pm if I'm having trouble getting ahold of the person.

It's the shrinking playerbase that makes me doubt this policy change would go into effect. We do still have a decently strong one currently. So maybe the change can bring some fun back into a role that's struggled to have anyone interested in them.

You could make them both family members, so they can write to each other as well. I have fond memories of messing with my other Kadius family members on my first one. (bad choice in the end, but every fun)

Tuluk being open is a big plus for the GMH too. If things are problematic in one city, they can go to the other for a bit. And it does give them a very fun perk, if you are into the socialite side of the game.

[betweenford]

There's a number of things I find kinda problematic with the way GMH are regarded from a PC standpoint and from a virtual standpoint. From the point of making money during general basic sorts of play, and not dealing with like massive house-specific deals, it can actually be a challenge compared to indie merchants to make money. The economy is kind of busted, especially in allanak. NPC murderers, glasshackers, spamcrafters, RSV sweatshoppers, gem miners etc can all make tremendous amounts of money and for less effort than going through a bunch of minor sales, and sometimes with very very little risk. Indie Amos is out here making more money than borsail nobles sometimes, and GMH Sandy generally isn't making all that much and to the same extent. More ways for GMH to make money would be nice, to represent their wealth and the ease of which they can come into it. Maybe something similar to RSV sweatshopping but particular to each GMH so even crafters or dedicated merchants with a crafting sub can get rich.

From an employee standpoint with the GMH, alot of progression in the Houses can feel sort of slow, and generally not worth it compared to staying indie for the reasons above. Not everyone wants to invest an IRL month(and then some) to get into the swing of things. Depending on the GMH, despite the variety of items, sometimes very little in comparison is actually craftable, which can lead to your position in the game world feeling more like a flavor role than anything else. The lack of play for guard pcs, and limited slots for Hunter PC's is also limiting, and although the current arrangement for clanned hunters is okay, I do wish the Garrison, clan guards, clan hunters etc were all actually open for each GMH, to rise and wax and wane as player interest does and for more PC concepts to come in and flesh out the clans. I don't personally care if a clan has alot of people in it compared to others, or dominates a region, as long as those PCs generally remain visible. Side promotions, recognitions for efforts like medals or pins, more opportunity to rise vertically etc would all be nice and promote more pcs into the role as well.

When dealing with buyers, again due to the lack of alot of pc craftables, generally dealing with buyers and handling orders is done via the request tool, and depending on the staffer this can be quick and simple or a long process of waiting for stuff to get done. And some PC's will unironically get mad at being made to wait for something you have no control of. When dealing with commissions, from a crafter perspective, especially with how easy it is for some roles to get or be given money and thus place alot of commissions, it can really feel as though you don't have very much creative input on what you're bringing to the clan as a whole. People generally want THEIR stuff THIS exact way, and as soon as that one is finished they want something else. And with the current rules on Customcrafting being bound to one a month, this can really be creatively draining when you want to make a putine or something instead of a tunic with a red sun on it and then a sword with a tassel on it and then a knife that looks bloodied and then etc etc until you die.

Virtually, despite the status, prominence, and everpresence of GMH in every market in the world alot of people really kinda feel keen on ignoring alot of that and not in the sense they're seeking you out specifically for interaction. You and your crew will be treated as the only group of Salarris to ever exist anywhere. You will probably be treated as kinda average and dirt, despite the status of your family. And you will be treated as a kowtowing vending machine despite any sort of power your family or bosses might actually wield. And it's draining to be treated like that.

[Barsook]

May we have the staffs' input on this?

[Veselka]

Honestly, it's been refreshing playing in Tuluk, because I can just go see what's for sale in a shop and call it a day. Which is how it should be IMHO -- If you want to buy shit, just go to the NPC seller. And PCs can craft shit and put it on the NPC seller. And call it a day.

I'd say do away with the custom items and special ordering except in particular circumstances. Custom items just end up being made for Templars and Nobles, rarely for Commoners, and it's an annoying vanity game at that point in my experience. My last GMH family member spent at least 50% of his time dealing with Templars being annoyed with previous GMH family members taking too long or getting something wrong with their 'fancy helmet #402'. It's boring.

I'd love to see GMH mostly political animals. If they are merchants, they're designing new lines of clothing/armor/weapons, not making up fantasy sword but Aztec for the Templar that knows fuck all about weapons. I always felt the GMH should be designing FOR these people, meaning they have them in mind, but not receiving verbal blueprints.

GMH roles are a burnout and can be fun if you focus on the PC and their ish, instead of the vending machine.

It's clear there's a slow burning issue -- It's been years since i've seen the likes of Markua or Danu or even Asil. Somewhat long lived, risky, getting involved in politics, getting their hands dirty. Now a days it seems we get a new PC, they die or store within a month, and we rinse and repeat.

At a certain point we have to stop looking to blame the PCs involved, and rather take a look at the system that is creating the same outcome, over and over again, with only a few exceptions. Why is the role not fun? Why are people storing so quickly? What demands are placed on the role that are too much, or too little?

I think it would be a good place to start for Staff to reach out to 5 previous long-lived GMH PCs, and 5 very short lived GMH PCs, and talk about the pros and cons of the role.

[Veselka]

GMH should ALWAYS have at least 2 family PC's IMO. They are huge parts of the game, and need to be accessible over various time zones, and it is so much more fun when you have fellow family to interact with, and numerous other GMH family about to socialize with, and plot with or against. I have fond memories of coming in as a junior agent of Kurac and having Hurlen-da above me, and dealing with Tasok and Kevak Salarr, and Siamaca Kadius.

With our playerbase being as thin as it is these days, i'd rather not have '2 of everything' as we once would have (Two Tenneshi, Two Borsail, Two Templars). I'd rather see more representation (Minor Merchant Houses, for instance) than 2 of everyone.

I think we need to put the focus on RP and plots with GMH/similar roles, rather than coded items and their design. The benefits for creating RP and Plots are endless, and the benefits for creating a new sword are...Finite.

[FamousAmos]

Could people that have played GHM leaders possibly give an idea of what was most onerous about the role?

I mean I've heard people complain, but it's hard to tell how much is hyperbole and how much is genuine grievance.

Putting in orders, having to wait after that. Meanwhile, other orders keep piling up and when the items are finally available, having to run like a headless erdlu to get all orders fulfilled. Read: trying to find the person that ordered them AND set a time and place for exchange.

Or worse: having to find a way to craft all of those things while already in a time pinch due to irl constraints (and having to gather all basic materials, which sometimes can be hard to find).

Or, needing something on the spot, since its such a small order, and wishing up isn't doing anything because your staffer isn't on.

It all causes a lot of stress. Lots and lots of stress, and lots of RP time is wasted just by trying to organize all of the above.

[SpyGuy]

I totally agree with giving the GMH leadership freedom on what roles are needed and allowing dual duties/jack of all trades. That doesn't happen in real life. Afterthought, that didn't make sense because I think doesn't happen in real life, but it would be nice for some policy change due to shrinking player-base.

I've thought about this and would agree if you look at modern corporations it doesn't track much.  But I'm thinking something more like arms dealers, drug dealers and traders in blood diamonds. Closer to organized crime or the East India Trade Company in their willingness to get their hands dirty. Those groups might all have a diverse set of people with diverse sets of skills if it helps them accomplish their goals.

[Barsook]

Just a thought here on freedom for the PC leadership and Divisions:

Back in the days of the Expansion Era of House Salarr pre 2010+, when there were more players playing, my question is did GMH's had more active clan members than now? Granted it's all based on the PC leadership that at time, that I'm aware that there was a larger player base. I'm just wondering if bringing back/creating new Divisions would make a difference. On the same vein, does the three playable GMH's have a Division name for the PC Leadership crews?

I'm pretty sure that all Crews were allowed to have crafters, hunters, merchants, and agents branches within said Division. Kurac is slightly different but still they have the same roles plus on unique one to them. I'm mainly looking at the agency branch, but I have a feeling that only Salarr had more lower ranks in that branch due to the Era- which I can see where SpyGuy is getting from in his post above.

Honesty after writing this, I'm not sure if allowing more freedom via branches and ranks is the way to go. More like in allowing a secondary duty when a crafter/hunter is not doing their main job.  But it would be cool if the agency branch is it's own thing but the PC leaders would still be like vending machines like the merchant branch.

I don't know...

It might just be the nostalgia of looking back at those days even though they might not be that glorious at all.

[FamousAmos]

Not sure if I mentioned it yet....

but in ye olden days it was fun and we had time to gather ingredients for certain brews.

But being a responsible adult with limited play time... I just don't have the time anymore to do all that, in between roleplay, putting in and delivering orders and traveling.

The booze should be readily available. Especially wine, which needs some time to rest in casks.

[Fredd]

Just a thought here on freedom for the PC leadership and Divisions:

Back in the days of the Expansion Era of House Salarr pre 2010+, when there were more players playing, my question is did GMH's had more active clan members than now? Granted it's all based on the PC leadership that at time, that I'm aware that there was a larger player base. I'm just wondering if bringing back/creating new Divisions would make a difference. On the same vein, does the three playable GMH's have a Division name for the PC Leadership crews?

I'm pretty sure that all Crews were allowed to have crafters, hunters, merchants, and agents branches within said Division. Kurac is slightly different but still they have the same roles plus on unique one to them. I'm mainly looking at the agency branch, but I have a feeling that only Salarr had more lower ranks in that branch due to the Era- which I can see where SpyGuy is getting from in his post above.

Honesty after writing this, I'm not sure if allowing more freedom via branches and ranks is the way to go. More like in allowing a secondary duty when a crafter/hunter is not doing their main job.  But it would be cool if the agency branch is it's own thing but the PC leaders would still be like vending machines like the merchant branch.

I don't know...

It might just be the nostalgia of looking back at those days even though they might not be that glorious at all.

Each one had a family member that was an Agent, and One that was a Merchant, and the merchant hired the crafters and handled deals, while the Agent tended to handle the more political talks.


I think we need to do something like this again.  But maybe it's just me being nostalgic. But it made life easier in a lot of ways. The Agent tended to handle the Nobles and other Merchant family members orders while the Merchant branch handles commoner orders.