Psions

[X-D]

And while some people are living proof at humans being open to suggestion easily influenced and all that Triste, you are actually 90% off the point people are trying to make.

And that is before the point that Some of us might not be talking about humans at all, and you will have no research there. Dwarves for instance are documented as NOT being easily influenced.

Nobody (other then you) Has claimed the human mind is infallible etc.

Points People have made. In order of importance as I see it.

#1 Person playing a psi is the high karma trusted role, the onus is on them. At least as far as many players feel. But staff puts out docs to the rest of the players saying otherwise.

#2 Staff has stated things such as "everyone" And "always" Which is simply not true EVEN in your loved studies.

#3 Docs state that benders are known of and the most hated of all....yet staff puts out docs that state Oh, you should not think mindbender when some ham handed bulldozer thing happens to your PCs mind. Silly.

#4 We want to know what kind of wiggle room we might have in the stated docs, Such as the PCs race state of mind, personality etc.
I give two examples on this one...and both actually happened. And this could have been staff as easily as anything...but does not stop it from being bad.

To a Half-giant I was playing.
You think,"It would be dishonorable to club that guy while he sleeps."
So somehow, my Half-giant, who has  NO CLUE as to what honor might be is supposed to play along with that how?

Another I was playing a total and by the book psychopath. Somebody who had never empathized with anybody EVER...yet..."You feel sorrow and compassion for...." Again, something he had never felt, could not feel and even if somehow he really did feel it, he would not know what it was anyway and so would not affect his actions.

#5 Wanting things worked on to make it easier for somebody to play a psi OTHER then forcing the non-psi players to hate it and just log off. And in doing so make it more fun all the way around.

Taking above examples, If the HG would have thought, "Aww, but he is so cute." Very HG thought, easily played along with and achieved the same goal.

Or for the psychopath, "You don't even feel like bothering."

In short, If the psi or staff cannot be bothered to some effort...expect the same amount from me and we can take it to request tool.

Sleepyhead:
It is too bad on that. If you played the type that preferred to nudge rather then use a sledgehammer, I would have thought finding players to go along would have been easier. I do if there is any attempt at finesse at all, sadly other players of psi or staff have left me with rather low standards and expectations on the matter though.

[Narf]

I'm going to make a side note that's not exactly a direct response to what anyone's said here (but certainly tangential).

While I agree that people playing psions should do some investigation into how a character is motivated before they start sending them errant thoughts, or at least errant thoughts they expect to be acted upon, sometimes the way a player plays makes that investigation impossible.

What I'm really saying here is that if you never use the think command, it's not really the psion's fault that they don't know how your character thinks. I know I'm personally guilty of not using thoughts or feelings to express how or why my character is doing something so if I get a psion's thought projection that doesn't make too much sense for my character I'm probably not going to hold it against them.

[X-D]

Oh, and Hestia and others. There is a difference between a Random thought and an unbidden thought. Hestia milk example would be an unbidden thought. Something I actually would think everybody has now and again.

Random would be a thought unconnected to anything else. (never had that myself).

Also, a request to staff and benders....try to describe things when you do these things. Again more believable and much easier to play along with somebody describing say depression then just "You feel depressed." I as a player have no idea what it is to be depressed, how am I supposed to play along with that, describe and I might try.

Narf: That is why a nudge is better then a hammer. You can Nudge, Nudge, Nudge your way to the point allowing these to actually become the chars actual thoughts and feelings.

[triste]

> In short, If the psi or staff cannot be bothered to some effort...expect the same amount from me and we can take it to request tool.

You sure are expecting a lot out of people, particularly now that mind reading and mind influencing are separate.

The rule exists exactly to stop people like you from cluttering the request tool.

Here is a code related compromise for us all, because no X-D, your argument that "my dwarf is a shaolin monk who meditates on mountain tops and like snowflakes on mountain tops I am one of a kind and should be allowed to break the rules" is a VERY BAD argument.

Code related fix. I imagine a lot of this is in code already.

- have ability to resist psi attacks be wisdom based (probably already done).
- if a psionicist fails a roll with an ability with you as the target, you get some echo about the failed attempt. Something like "You feel something trying to tug and influence your mind but it soon passes."
- NOW you can roleplay ,"Aaah a psionicist is fucking with me, it must be Cindy who just logged on" like every doc defying twerp today.
- if the psionicist succeeds and influences your mind? FOLLOW THE DOCS.

[Halcyon]

> In short, If the psi or staff cannot be bothered to some effort...expect the same amount from me and we can take it to request tool.

You sure are expecting a lot out of people, particularly now that mind reading and mind influencing are separate.

The rule exists exactly to stop people like you from cluttering the request tool.

Here is a code related compromise for us all, because no X-D, your argument that "my dwarf is a shaolin monk who meditates on mountain tops and like snowflakes on mountain tops I am one of a kind and should be allowed to break the rules" is a VERY BAD argument.

Code related fix. I imagine a lot of this is in code already.

- have ability to resist psi attacks be wisdom based (probably already done).
- if a psionicist fails a roll with an ability with you as the target, you get some echo about the failed attempt. Something like "You feel something trying to tug and influence your mind but it soon passes.
- NOW you can rollplay ,"Aaah a psionicist is fucking with me, it must be Cindy who just logged on" like every doc defying twerp today.
- if the psionicist succeeds and influences your mind? FOLLOW THE DOCS.

Doesnt much matter if there is a partial resist.   Either a character should be able to train the possibility to resist as a skill, or the psion should be restricted to the range of one room with an obvious effect, allowing the target to reply by other means.

Without one of these two caveats, the psion can simply keep pounding on a pc anonymously until an attempt lands.   Where is the fun in "I win" buttons of any sort?

[triste]

Where is the partial resist you speak of coming from. A dice roll?

The dice rolls happened. It's called code. Again, do. Not. Be. Twatty.

It's a two way street. Again my critical hit example was a 100% parallel to what you're saying. So let me try again:
Dungeon Master: The lich casts fireball on you.
Twatty: But I don't believe in magic, therefore I take zero damage.
Dungeon Master: I already rolled the dice, Twatty.
Twatty: I thought this wasn't a roleplaying game but a game where I always get to win.
Dungeon Master: Damnit, Twatty...

[Narf]

> In short, If the psi or staff cannot be bothered to some effort...expect the same amount from me and we can take it to request tool.

You sure are expecting a lot out of people, particularly now that mind reading and mind influencing are separate.

The rule exists exactly to stop people like you from cluttering the request tool.

Here is a code related compromise for us all, because no X-D, your argument that "my dwarf is a shaolin monk who meditates on mountain tops and like snowflakes on mountain tops I am one of a kind and should be allowed to break the rules" is a VERY BAD argument.

Code related fix. I imagine a lot of this is in code already.

- have ability to resist psi attacks be wisdom based (probably already done).
- if a psionicist fails a roll with an ability with you as the target, you get some echo about the failed attempt. Something like "You feel something trying to tug and influence your mind but it soon passes.
- NOW you can rollplay ,"Aaah a psionicist is fucking with me, it must be Cindy who just logged on" like every doc defying twerp today.
- if the psionicist succeeds and influences your mind? FOLLOW THE DOCS.

Doesnt much matter if there is a partial resist.   Either a character should be able to train the possibility to resist as a skill, or the psion should be restricted to the range of one room with an obvious effect, allowing the target to reply by other means.

Without one of these two caveats, the psion can simply keep pounding on a pc anonymously until an attempt lands.   Where is the fun in "I win" buttons of any sort?

Well, I mean the victims have an "I win" button. We're just not supposed to use it casually.

[triste]

Exactly.

And the fix is to implement this just like pickpocketing: success, noticeable failure, and silent failure.

It ain't rocket science (or neuroscience).

[X-D]

Again Triste misses the point.

I will make it simple.

Arguing that you do not agree with the rules or that the rules don't make enough sense or that they need be better defined is not saying OH hey, I am going to break the rules.

In this matter the only "winning" I and many others are interested in is a fun and Believable scene and story.

And if this can happen or not is STRONGLY linked to said rules and play on all sides.

My argument is that the rules/guidelines, whatever, as currently worded do more to lower the possibility and therefore fun then to raise it...though I can see the intent is to raise it.

Along with not making sense...Mindbenders are REAL...But don't assume mindbender...Huh?

Along with the rules basically stating I have to treat good play and bad play the same, Be it bender or staff. And that is a rule I would break while logging off and heading to complaint section of request tool.

EDIT:

Keep in mind, I have had good interactions. Just cannot say much in public.
But for instance, I had a HG, now I do not have any idea if this was staff or a bender. I tend to assume bender because it went on for weeks. Still, whoever, came in slow, used HG friendly methods and after a while (did not take that long because...you know...HG) That my PC thought this was a normal thing and enjoyed having an "inner voice". Was sad when it stopped. Hopefully that player or staffer is still around and remembers. I do not remember if I sent a kudos, likely not...but happy late kudos.

[Halcyon]

Where is the partial resist you speak of coming from. A dice roll?

The dice rolls happened. It's called code. Again, do. Not. Be. Twatty.

It's a two way street. Again my critical hit example was a 100% parallel to what you're saying. So let me try again:
Dungeon Master: The lich casts fireball on you.
Twatty: But I don't believe in magic, therefore I take zero damage.
Dungeon Master: I already rolled the dice, Twatty.
Twatty: I thought this wasn't a roleplaying game but a game where I always get to win.
Dungeon Master: Damnit, Twatty...

I dont think you read my response.   I dont understand yours.   I give up.   Enjoy your day.

[triste]

Because they succeeded on their skill roll.

Dungeon Master: Okay Twatty. You don't believe in critical hits or magick. But this psionicist just rolled a perfect 20 and he's gonna control your mind.
Twatty: BUT I DON'T WANNA.
Dungeon Master: Please... please twatty. It's in the rules. Here I will do a reroll for you. *another 20* your mind is fucking controlled.
Twatty: (in a baby voice) No. nooooooo!
Dungeon Master: You're out of my game, Twatty.

Again, not rocket science. Add partial failures like with pickpocketing so people CAN say oh my, we have a psionicist among us.

I am not missing the point, I know what RULES are.

[mansa]

Because they succeeded on their skill roll.

Dungeon Master: Okay Twatty. You don't believe in critical hits or magick. But this psionicist just rolled a perfect 20 and he's gonna control your mind.
Twatty: BUT I DON'T WANNA.
Dungeon Master: Please... please twatty. It's in the rules. Here I will do a reroll for you. *another 20* your mind is fucking controlled.
Twatty: (in a baby voice) No. nooooooo!
Dungeon Master: You're out of my game, Twatty.

Again, not rocket science. Add partial failures like with pickpocketing so people CAN say oh my, we have a psionicist among us.

I am not missing the point, I know what RULES are.

Keep in mind,

Being mind controlled / unnecessary thoughts being imposed on your character is losing agency of your character you are playing in a game.
You are being railroaded and forced to play along with something you didn't agree with.

Players are allowed to feel upset when this happens.

[triste]

Yes players are allowed to feel upset, just like they might when they lose agency by being murdered in a PK.

This game is supposed to be harsh. The loss of agency is harsh but also a core theme of the game.

What IS a violation of the rules and NOT good roleplay is power emoting the resistance of successfully used skills. I am merely advocating for having a functioning game.

[Halaster]

Since some of you (trist, x-d) cannot comment without insults, I'm locking this thread.  When you learn how to have a discussion without insults, maybe we'll let it play out.