Psions

[Halcyon]

Many of us remember a particular psion who killed many many player led plots in a region.   Her body count was insane, not to mention those who learned they had to meta game and avoid her to play specific kinds of pcs.

I would prefer if psions in all forms were removed as playable options.   I really hesitate to say that, being staunchly opposed to removing long-held goals people look forward to.    That said, I think the game should err on the side of more plot, secrets, betrayals and politics rather than less.

In a perfect world I dont want to feel like a powergamer for avoiding any game region my pcs get "psi'd" in, or feel like a chump for playing a victim who has zero chance to defend themselves.   

Is there a third choice?


edit: There are two psion abilities I really object to, but obviously its bad form to talk about those openly.  Maybe one or more of the subguilds are fine, lacking those options.

[mansa]

It feels weird, when your character is doing things you, as a player, did not decide on nor consent to.

This is why you, as a player, feel unnatural hate towards pickpocket characters - those characters did something to your character without your consent.

It's why when some players immediately log out if the staff start echoing around them - they only want to play the game by their own means.



The 'being mind controlled' is something that you should ultimately trust the other players of our game to play out.

[Halcyon]

Never been mind controlled.  I'd like to think it would be novel and fun at least twice.

[sleepyhead]

EDIT: My point about the status/role difference between these two kinds of psions was already brought up on the other thread in much the same words.

[Jihelu]

I've engaged with psions, it's neat.

That said:

Staffs help files seem a bit on the overboard side, going to so many lengths that a normal person thinking 'I'M IN YOUR WALLS IM IN YOUR WALLS KILL MY FRIENDS' should first reaction be 'Oh crumbs look at the weather it's so hot!' as opposed to 'Wow, I live in a world full of magic and evil mosnters...something isn't right here'.

We expect people to RP robbery, to RP magic rp, to give good Templar RP and intrigue...why should I not have the expectation that a Psion should give a fuck about his mind fuckery and not go straight to 'Kill the child corrupt them all'.

I can tell you right now if I had what happened to me in my ...two? (It's hard to fucking tell when psions fuck with you lol) psion interactions in real life, one of my first thoughts would be: Damn, psychics in my brain.
I don't even believe in psychic but some wacky shit was going on.

[Mellifera]

Many of us remember a particular psion who killed many many player led plots in a region.   Her body count was insane, not to mention those who learned they had to meta game and avoid her to play specific kinds of pcs.

I would prefer if psions in all forms were removed as playable options.   I really hesitate to say that, being staunchly opposed to removing long-held goals people look forward to.    That said, I think the game should err on the side of more plot, secrets, betrayals and politics rather than less.

In a perfect world I dont want to feel like a powergamer for avoiding any game region my pcs get "psi'd" in, or feel like a chump for playing a victim who has zero chance to defend themselves.   

Is there a third choice?


edit: There are two psion abilities I really object to, but obviously its bad form to talk about those openly.  Maybe one or more of the subguilds are fine, lacking those options.

It sounds like you're talking about a Lirathan, who occupied a position very different to normal full-guild psions. The only reason to avoid a region because of a fear of psionics were Lirathans, which no longer exist, and I don't believe anyone is asking for them to come back again. Full-guild psions outside of Lirathans are not in the kind of position to simply spy and end plots like Lirathans were.

[Strongheart]

[Strongheart]

Unfortunately, I cannot take credit for this golden meme someone much smarter than I came up with it lol

[Dar]

I perfectly support psioncists. Let them corrupt normal mundanes in positions of power with illicit alliances.

I am very much legalized psioncists that can summon HGs and have a close to ultimate authority in a PC part of a city state.

[Rokal]

I too support psionicsts, i don't get this thread

I had minor experience with them, but not an incredible amount, and the potential for weaving plots is intriguing to me.

I don't think things would get to 'plot destroying' levels.

[Lotion]

I think if a psion gives someone a thought they would never think that it's irresponsible RP on their part and the person should absolutely suspect something is up. Understand your target and then give them many nudges towards your plan. Don't make the dwarf with a focus about having the stinkiest fart shank your enemies, have the dwarf decide he needs to sit on your enemies' faces and fart on them until they die of suffocation to measure how stinky his farts are. It's the most famous sun tzu quote "If you're playing a mindworm you need to understand the people you are manipulating so that they don't even realize you are manipulating you."

mindworm that gives you boring instructiony thoughts -> lame
mindworm that understands how you think and then uses that knowledge to manipulate you into doing something cool -> fucking awesome

[Hestia]

I think if a psion gives someone a thought they would never think that it's irresponsible RP on their part and the person should absolutely suspect something is up. Understand your target and then give them many nudges towards your plan. Don't make the dwarf with a focus about having the stinkiest fart shank your enemies, have the dwarf decide he needs to sit on your enemies' faces and fart on them until they die of suffocation to measure how stinky his farts are. It's the most famous sun tzu quote "If you're playing a mindworm you need to understand the people you are manipulating so that they don't even realize you are manipulating you."

mindworm that gives you boring instructiony thoughts -> lame
mindworm that understands how you think and then uses that knowledge to manipulate you into doing something cool -> fucking awesome

To extend how I understand the rules as we've laid out for our (and your) play:

This doesn't mean you're not allowed to...

Code Select Expand

think That was a strange thought. Such random. Much unusual. Wow."

what it means is that you shouldn't extrapolate that into..

Code Select Expand

think OMG MINDWORM

You can absolutely know that you've popped out with a random urge, unusual thought, previously-unknown twitch.  But because your character would (or should) not have had much intimate or formal discussion with anyone regarding "mindbender lessons 101" it should not be your character's go-to assumption.  You, in real life, have random thoughts ALL THE TIME.  You'll be driving somewhere and see a sign that says 25mph and think "oh yeah I need a quart of milk!"  Are you being mindbent? Of course not. But your brain knows that 25 = 1/4.  And 1/4 = "a quart." and "a quart" = the size container of milk you're running low on.

Random thoughts are random. There's nothing unusual about them.  If you are in a mundane conversation with someone who you don't particularly care about - not actively dislike, but are mostly ambiguous - and they say something and suddenly you realize there's something interesting about them afterall..

that's a normal reaction to normal conversations with normal people. There's no reason why you should think you're being mindbent.

However - it seems common to jump to that conclusion, because YOU - the player - are not the one who typed that line into the game screen. It came from elsewhere.  So you, the player, conclude that your character is being mindbent.

And you, the player, might very possibly be correct. But your character isn't typing things into game buffers to produce their thoughts and feelings. They're just living their lives.  Why not just play what your character senses? If they feel something, roll with it. Or wonder why they felt that, or heck match it with an equally random thought to show your character is multi-dimensional.


To me it's no different than when my character, who has never been to the north, has reason to be there for the first time ever. And sees their first tregil ever.  She doesn't just somehow KNOW it's a tregil. I, the player, see the word "tregil" and  know that yup, it's a tregil.  But my character doesn't.  And so I'll roleplay what I feel my character would know. Which is - huh - what a cool little  freaky looking critter. I hope it doesn't bite.

[X-D]

For the record....

You, in real life, have random thoughts ALL THE TIME.

.....No...I do not.

Every thought I have had in memory has stemmed from another or a known want or need.

EVEN when using psychedelics that may have caused random "visions" I knew the entire time what the issue was with these assuredly alien "visions".

My mind and brain are quite well known to me.

Even your example is not a random thought. At some point you noticed you needed a quart of milk...Later, you remembered you needed a quart of milk. Likely triggered by the fact you are outside the house...which is where you are likely to find a quart of milk.

Even IRL if I was to actually have some alien thought/feeling/urge, I would know immediately that it was not me and start making a tin foil hat...and I don't believe in aliens either but there would be few other possibilities. Because those did NOT come from me.

However - it seems common to jump to that conclusion, because YOU - the player - are not the one who typed that line into the game screen. It came from elsewhere.  So you, the player, conclude that your character is being mindbent.

While true, as you state soon, and so have others, this is you, not your PC.

And you, the player, might very possibly be correct. But your character isn't typing things into game buffers to produce their thoughts and feelings. They're just living their lives.  Why not just play what your character senses? If they feel something, roll with it. Or wonder why they felt that, or heck match it with an equally random thought to show your character is multi-dimensional.

This IS exactly the point. While I might be thinking OOH, Bender. I at the same time look at what the experience was through the lense of the PC. Is this something I can work with on this PC given his mind and personality and history? And too often the answer is Nope. Because let us say it is a "random thought" And that thought is "I want to kill my mother." Problem is, this PCs mother died giving birth to him, so A: He never knew her and so could not have that thought and B: She is already dead so WOULD not have that thought.

So, player side "Oooh...bender" Becomes "Ugh...bender". And I, the player am left with an impossible situation because of poor play by the one playing the bender and rules stated by staff that push that I have to play to power emotes from a newb.

[Jihelu]

Like I said, and agree with X-D

My random thoughts IRL are not 'DESTROY THE CHILD, CORRUPT THEM ALL'
They are

"I need to do X today" (Something that was ON my list of things to do.)

Not spooky scary mind worm stuff.
And as I explained.
In my two interactions with mind worms in the game, if that shit happened to me in real life one of my first thoughts would be
1: Damn I guess magic exists
2: Damn, fucking psychic in my head.

Hence why my post, and Lotion's, put the burden of RP on the mindworm. Who is a 3 karma player. Who used a spec app for this character.

They should be expected to make believable thoughts instead of having the broadest of safety nets that I can have a guy in my head going 'NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE' and all I can do is go to my closest confident and be like 'Uwu I guess I had some bad Erdlu steak haha please pick up that a mindworm is in my head because if I make that connection I'm a bad roleplayer'

"
To me it's no different than when my character, who has never been to the north, has reason to be there for the first time ever. And sees their first tregil ever.  She doesn't just somehow KNOW it's a tregil. I, the player, see the word "tregil" and  know that yup, it's a tregil.  But my character doesn't.  And so I'll roleplay what I feel my character would know. Which is - huh - what a cool little  freaky looking critter. I hope it doesn't bite."

I have no idea what connection you are trying to make here.
'Wow a creature I've never seen before' and Crazy shit going on in my head are vastly different things. Unless you want me to start treating animals I've never seen before in the wild as 'fake' and 'oh I must have been in the sun too long, there couldn't possibly be a -tregil- over there! I've never seen it before!'

[triste]

Are we really debating the docs and whether you should accept a thought a psion gives you?

With as much respect as I can muster, if you are defying the docs and in the camp of "I would not consider a psion's planted thought as natural and roleplay suspecting my own thoughts," you are being, for lack of a better term, an immature poopy head.

Not only are you being an immature poopy head, you probably lack a lot of scientific knowledge and experience. There is an epidemic of women getting rufied and drugged in developed countries right now. Hell, my transguy friend was rufied while hanging out with me just last month and I saw it happen. Suddenly, not like drunkeness, he became very wobbly, open to suggestions, etc, it was weird and awful. I knew what was happening to him and saved his ass because I've been through the same.

So why do assholes rufie people? So they would do stuff they normally would never do, like kank gross dudes. Sometimes it works, but THANK GOD it usually doesn't. If you don't believe it's possible for your brain to have a thought under one circumstance that you would never have under another circumstance, well, maybe you aren't hot enough to be rufied.

Chemical influences on human willpower aside, the human mind is EXTREMELY fallible. I was interested in psychology in middle school and read this famous article about patients having false memories planted with the use of doctored photos and realized as a freaking 12 year old that the mind takes shortcuts, is fallible, and is open to suggestion. It's almost like significant parts of our modern world is based on this premise! If you look at politics and the economy, people make and spend billions to change the way people think.

Live a little, do your research, get over your fallacious complacency and get with the program (which is validated more by research every day).

If you can't push yourself to follow the docs here, that problem is 100% on you.

[sleepyhead]

I have played psionicists, and 99% of the challenge of playing a psion is finding people who won't FREAK OUT and scream mindbender the moment you do anything. And I'm not talking about putting in a thought like "It would be great if I murdered my entire family because I am suddenly extremely evil!" I mean really basic thoughts like "Is X looking at me funny?" or "I wonder if Y would make a good friend."

If you can't plant even that kind of thought into someone's head, then the power is useless. Yes, thoughts usually arise from prior thoughts, but for all you know the mind may compensate by coming up with a false 'bridge' between your natural thoughts and the unnatural thought. Kind of like when the connections between the hemispheres of the brain stop functioning, the brain will come up with false verbal justifications for instructions only seen by the non-verbal side of the brain.

[triste]

I have played psionicists, and 99% of the challenge of playing a psion is finding people who won't FREAK OUT and scream mindbender the moment you do anything. And I'm not talking about putting in a thought like "It would be great if I murdered my entire family because I am suddenly extremely evil!" I mean really basic thoughts like "Is X looking at me funny?" or "I wonder if Y would make a good friend."

If you can't plant even that kind of thought into someone's head, then the power is useless. Yes, thoughts usually arise from prior thoughts, but for all you know the mind may compensate by coming up with a false 'bridge' between your natural thoughts and the unnatural thought. Kind of like when the connections between the hemispheres of the brain stop functioning, the brain will come up with false verbal justifications for instructions only seen by the non-verbal side of the brain.

Yep, basically all of this.

If you don't follow the docs on psions, you're basically being Twatty in this example.
Dungeon Master: the orc rolled a twenty and critically hits you.
Twatty: No. Nope. I've never been critically hit IRL so I refuse to be critically hit IG.
Dungeon Master: Twatty. These are the rules. Plus your argument is stupid.
Twatty: No your rule is stupid, Imma play how I want and ignore your rule.
Dungeon Master: Okay Twatty. You can play by the rules or not play at all. Going to roll damage here.
Twatty: But like I don't even believe critical hits happen IRL so like why should this happen.
Dungeon Master: You've never been in a fist fight have you Twatty.
Twatty: No.
Dungeon Master: Maybe we should fix that today!

[Alesan]

Is the average Zalanthan aware that psionicists exist? I just want to reconcile with the idea that they blame every little odd thing on some gick that must have passed by them, but errant thoughts don't even warrant a pause. If they are not meant to be aware that psionicists exist, then I could stand by the psion docs with confidence. If they are aware psionicists exist but still deny that any thought could in any way be linked to one, then I'm going to have a much harder time with it.
I realize this is meant to make psions more playable, because I'm sure it must suck to be rejected at every turn because everyone jumps to OMG MINDWORM the instant their character does something the player didn't choose, but the docs seem a little heavy handed and oppressive to me.

[triste]

Is the average Zalanthan aware that psionicists exist? I just want to reconcile with the idea that they blame every little odd thing on some gick that must have passed by them, but errant thoughts don't even warrant a pause. If they are not meant to be aware that psionicists exist, then I could stand by the psion docs with confidence. If they are aware psionicists exist but still deny that any thought could in any way be linked to one, then I'm going to have a much harder time with it.
I realize this is meant to make psions more playable, because I'm sure it must suck to be rejected at every turn because everyone jumps to OMG MINDWORM the instant their character does something the player didn't choose, but the docs seem a little heavy handed and oppressive to me.

This is fully beside the point. The very definition of planted thoughts is the people who have these thoughts do not even realize they are planted. Feel free to read the research I linked and similar research.

The docs aren't oppressive, denying the docs is self-serving to the point of oppressing the roleplay ambitions of others. Breaking the rules here is the same as power emoting. You are overriding the emote of another in a way you shouldn't be allowed to. You are overriding someone else's successful skill roll because you want to be selfish and lame. Be a courteous roleplayer and not an immature shittt one. Don't be Twatty in my last example. Don't be a twit and break the rules because of your limited life experience and scientific knowledge.

The cool thing about role-playing is it lets you experience new things you haven't experienced before. The rules here aren't oppressive, they are merely making things fair and needed to be enumerate because people were being twatty and uncooperative.

[Alesan]

Is the average Zalanthan aware that psionicists exist? I just want to reconcile with the idea that they blame every little odd thing on some gick that must have passed by them, but errant thoughts don't even warrant a pause. If they are not meant to be aware that psionicists exist, then I could stand by the psion docs with confidence. If they are aware psionicists exist but still deny that any thought could in any way be linked to one, then I'm going to have a much harder time with it.
I realize this is meant to make psions more playable, because I'm sure it must suck to be rejected at every turn because everyone jumps to OMG MINDWORM the instant their character does something the player didn't choose, but the docs seem a little heavy handed and oppressive to me.

This is fully beside the point. The very definition of planted thoughts is the people who have these thoughts do not even realize they are planted. Feel free to read the research I linked and similar research.

The docs aren't oppressive, denying the docs is self-serving to the point of oppressing the roleplay ambitions. Breaking the rules here is the same as power emoting. You are overriding the emote of another in a way you shouldn't be allowed to. You are overriding someone else's successful skill roll because you want to be selfish and lame. Be a courteous roleplayer and not an immature shittt one. Don't be Twatty in my last example. Don't be a twit and break the rules because of your limited life experience and scientific knowledge.

I never said anything about denying the docs. I'm discussing here because... it's a forum for discussing. You seem to be assuming a lot. Please don't. I will be following the docs regardless of how I feel about them.

[sleepyhead]

I do kind of want to know: if I have a character who is super paranoid about mindworms and constantly (wrongly) thinks that he is being fucked with, does that mean that when he is actually fucked with, that is the one time he can't possibly suspect?

[Narf]

For those claiming that "random destructive thoughts" don't make sense:

https://thetab.com/2014/07/18/ever-had-the-sudden-urge-to-do-something-totally-horrible-dont-worry-thats-perfectly-normal-17732

The research study spawning the above article is talked about here:

https://psychology.wikia.org/wiki/White_Bear_Phenomenon

Unfortunately the links to the original research are no longer working (not surprising, it's from 1989).

[triste]

Thanks for more research. It really does look like one side of this argument has heaps of research here while the other does not.

While one side, the side I am on stating that the mind is fallible and easy to influence, is well substantited by science, let's also look at history. After all, Armageddon is more like a bronze age city than the modern world. Back then, most commoners had no idea how the world fucking worked. Most commoners would see birds as omens or messengers from the gods. Completely irrational stuff. Multiple people (until the last century) would claim to hear the voice of god or the gods, and again, people just accepted this. Public education is a modern invention, and the cult of rational thought we have today is brief in the span of intellectual development. Even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who made a fictional character EPITOMIZING RATIONALITY, Sherlock Holmes, believed in faries, hypnosis, and other pseudoscientific fads at the time.

The human brain takes shortcuts and is easily influenced. Research shows that. Humanity has believed various crazy things, and such ideas are easy to plant in others. History shows that. The idea that humans are completely rational is a fallacy promoted by out of date intellectuals like Adam Smith at best.

TLDR one side [the human mind is fallable and easy to influence] has heaps of research while the idea that people have 100% agency over their thoughts and actions has effectively no recent evidence.

[Usiku]

I do kind of want to know: if I have a character who is super paranoid about mindworms and constantly (wrongly) thinks that he is being fucked with, does that mean that when he is actually fucked with, that is the one time he can't possibly suspect?

If you wanted to roll this kind of concept, then this is the kind of thing I would recommend working with staff on. But at a first pass, I'd say if the character had a background and consistently RP'd history of thinking all their own thoughts were implanted and that they were constantly being attacked by mindworms even though they weren't, then yeah, sure, you should continue rolling with that if under attack from an actual mindworm. Though sod's law would have it that that character would never fall prey to a Psion. You'd just be playing an absolutely insane character. :p

There is sometimes a little wiggle room around some docs, but it's better to make sure you set the proper groundwork with character development and discuss these kinds of things with your Storytellers first.

[sleepyhead]

I do kind of want to know: if I have a character who is super paranoid about mindworms and constantly (wrongly) thinks that he is being fucked with, does that mean that when he is actually fucked with, that is the one time he can't possibly suspect?

If you wanted to roll this kind of concept, then this is the kind of thing I would recommend working with staff on. But at a first pass, I'd say if the character had a background and consistently RP'd history of thinking all their own thoughts were implanted and that they were constantly being attacked by mindworms even though they weren't, then yeah, sure, you should continue rolling with that if under attack from an actual mindworm. Though sod's law would have it that that character would never fall prey to a Psion. You'd just be playing an absolutely insane character. :p

There is sometimes a little wiggle room around some docs, but it's better to make sure you set the proper groundwork with character development and discuss these kinds of things with your Storytellers first.

Thanks for the response! I'm not necessarily planning on playing such a character, but I thought it would be a good way to illustrate the rule of thumb.