In Defence of Full Guilds (and player input)

[Narf]

Here's another approach to the interest of magick skillsets:

I don't want to have all the spells in my element. I don't need them all.  But I'd like to pick which ones I get.  If the full skillset comes with 40 spells, I'd like to be able to "pick 15." As long as it's in that element, I can pick any 15 of them.  And whatever 15 I pick, that will now be my sub-class. I won't ever get any more magick spells with that character, they're all there, starting at the lowest level and able to max out.


Another -other- approach:

You select a combat main-class. You may now pick any 15 non-combat spells of your preferred magick class.
You select a merchant/crafting main class. you may now pick any 5 combat spells, and any 10 non-combat spells of your preferred magick class.
You select a sneaky/stealth/adventurer class. You may now pick any 10 combat spells, and any 5 non-combat spells of your preferred magick class.


The above are just ideas off the top of my head, to help some folks think a little out of the box and not see it as "we must have it either this way, or that way, and there are no other possible ways to see it."

From my experience with other games, a lot of the power of abilities comes not from the ability in a vacuum but rather its interaction with other abilities. This is true for magic, skills, or any special ability. This makes spells you can pick yourself potentially a lot more powerful than spells that are picked for you.

Something to keep in mind if you're considering free pick.

[Lotion]

It would be cool if the skillcaps of the main guild skills of aspect magickers were reduced slightly to prevent them from being "mundane plus". Touched subguilds would still have their full maximums in this design philosophy.

[Harmless]

It would be cool if the skillcaps of the main guild skills of aspect magickers were reduced slightly to prevent them from being "mundane plus". Touched subguilds would still have their full maximums in this design philosophy.

This makes realistic sense to me, but I would be far more interested in a kind of skill rusting system (maybe a soft and fully reversible one) that might have multitalented characters see slight shifts in what they are good at and not so good at over time based on which skills (or spells) were more used recently.

Also, I have a thought spinoff  after your idea. It pains me how restrictive the magick spell variety is for each subguild, as this is a storytelling game and highly limited abilities feels like it limits the storytelling options with these abilities. It is a problem compounded by the stigma of magick making so few interactions possible.

However I feel irked by the overly reliable nature of using the magick making it feel less dangerous and scary when used. I have good feedback for sure for the new critical failures and successes of magick. If every magickal ability had more drawbacks or difficulty in use or risks but in return the breadth of abilities for each subguild were expanded just a little to allow more role options I would be quite happy with the tradeoff.

[Mellifera]

That's a lot of assumption there! Usually, and especially so with Psis, what leads to world-shaking, memorably powerful characters is more story-based and clever application of their skillsets to plots, rather than straight up coded power. Just because they have been changed, doesn't mean they are in any way weak or not truly and utterly terrifying.

We will undoubtedly see some of our incredibly creative players successfully driving unforgettable plots with these classes still.

I realised I never replied to this. I agree in a sense, but what I've said is that I don't feel like this was particularly a reduction in raw coded power at all. It was a reduction in narrative power. A sub guild krathi or sorcerer with a combat main guild is just as good, if not better at killing people and not being killed as their full-guild counterparts were, and a sub guild psionicist with even a survival guild is ABSOLUTELY a better murderer than full-guild psionicists were.

Like you say, what made characters memorable and world-shaking was a clever application of their skillsets to plots, and now their relevant skillsets, the non-mundane ones, have been severely reduced. A single character can no longer have the all the skills to apply that make for a legendary figure like that.

In my opinion, psionicists are the biggest sufferers of this. What they are now is an order of magnitude better at killing people (they have more raw coded power) but such a drastic dissection of their abilities makes them feel so much less like psionicists. The flavour feels gone and now they're just normal characters with a handful of added abilities that they might sometimes throw around.

[wizturbo]

Since this has been a passion topic for me since the full guild changes went in, wanted to share my two cents .

• The magicker sub-guilds are cool.  Great addition to the game.  Some people want to be more mundane than magickal, and these are perfect for that.
• The full guild magickers were also cool, and it still feels bad they're gone.  Sometimes you just want to play a character where their element is a core part of the identity and the sub-guilds don't scratch that itch.

Why not have both?  It isn't a balance issue (many of the truly broken spells aren't anymore).  It isn't a lore issue.  And there isn't a lack of demand to play these.  What's the thing stopping them from being an option?  Could just make them all 3 karma, or special app like a sorc or psionicist.

[Rogerthat]

Nah dont make them three karma. I dont agree with that part, BUT! i do agree with bringing them back, i mean shit, i dont even want to play gicks now a days, its just... Not the same as the old school gicks

[Lotion]

I've heard that it might be a lore issue.

[th3kaiser]

I've heard that it might be a lore issue.

I'd doubt it. I seem to recall that staff have said more than once that full guild elementalists and sorcerers exist in the world. It's simply that players no longer have access to play them.

Unless I'm mis-remembering.

[mansa]

What's the thing stopping them from being an option?  Could just make them all 3 karma, or special app like a sorc or psionicist.

My goal is to keep characters playable.  In the case of fully branched main guild sorcerers, truly advanced elementalists and high ranking templars, they could get to a point where they were unplayable. There is no end game for such characters.  Without sufficient challenge, interaction with the rest of the playerbase becomes less meaningful.  It then falls on Staff to represent the proper response from the game world, an inflated sense of that character's importance in the game world to either the player or worse the playerbase, and other pitfalls that happen when a character gets to a certain level of coded power.

Advanced Full Magickers (and Sorcerers) enter storytelling themes that require staff interaction.

in my opinion,
This is an argument about player storytelling and staff storytelling and where the conflict arises with implementation these wishes within a coded system of interactions between each player.
Players want to be a level 20 wizard, and Staff want players to be a level 7 party of adventurers.

[Mellifera]

Advanced Full Magickers (and Sorcerers) enter storytelling themes that require staff interaction.

in my opinion,
This is an argument about player storytelling and staff storytelling and where the conflict arises with implementation these wishes within a coded system of interactions between each player.
Players want to be a level 20 wizard, and Staff want players to be a level 7 party of adventurers.

I agree, and it feels like this has been the direction for the development of Armageddon for some time. Player characters are slowly becoming less influential, powerful, and important. They have less of an impact on the world. I think that's not just a massive shame, but I think it's going to lead to the eventual decline and death of the game. Armageddon, and MUD's in general, are favourable because of the possibility for players themselves to shape the world, and that feels as though it's disappearing.

Once upon a time there were level 20 wizards and psions driving massive plots of their own, and now everyone is a level 7 adventurer, and all those truly powerful figures are NPC's run exclusively by staff. Where's the appeal in that?

Personally, if the issue is that these full guild characters require staff interaction, I think they should get it. I feel like it would be plausible to treat full guild psions, sorcs, and mages as heavily sponsored roles, like templar, GMH, and noble characters are treated (which also require heavy staff interaction to function whatsoever). If the problem is the lack of an end-game, I think one can be facilitated for all of them, especially with staff oversight. Storytellers are ultimately there to facilitate the story of Armageddon, why not have one who is devoted to helping these powerful PC's drive their side of that story. I'm sure the issues with their end-game could be managed too, perhaps in much the same way as templar, noble, and GMH end-games are, with 'ascension'.

Like I've mentioned previously in this thread too, I think there are many ways to offer even long lived full guild sorcs a proper challenge if the game world responds right and their enemies are properly supplied.

When it comes to full-guild psions, I don't think they were ever lacking a significant challenge, even at their final stages. If anything, they'll be able to put up a much greater fight as sub-guilds than they ever could as full-guilds. Full guild psionicists were never like full-guild sorcerers, they were never as untouchable or powerful. Once again all the points levied against full-guild characters seem the least reasonable when applied to psions.

Ultimately, my main point is that there are other solutions that could be attempted than just killing all full-guilds off. Even if staff absolutely must be able to not oversee full-guilds at all, I think there are ways to solve the issues presented. The last thing we should be doing is just plain removing them, and cutting down the power and influence players are entrusted with even further.

[Jihelu]

Throwback to the old site mentioning becoming a dragon, avangion, half elemental. All that fun stuff.

[Tranquil]

Imagine a brutally honest Armageddon website front-page on magick.

10-15 years ago:
"Become a semi-Elemental with the blood of innocents! Raise your own undead army with the dark and full power of Nilaz at your fingers!"

Present day:
"You can get 'fireball' to mon so you can throw them at chalton to kill them slightly faster whilst doing the exact same thing as the other hunter (with fireballs)."

[Patuk]

A full god damn one third of the game is magickers already; opening up full guilds next to subguilds will only elevate that percentage. Get outta here if you want to tell me there is a way to give out OP shit along avangion lines to that many people.

[X-D]

It would not elevate it. The people who like to play mages will or they will not.

[Patuk]

There are people at the margin who would pick a fully classed mage but won't play one with a subclass; if there's even seven of them, that's a cool ten percent of the playerbase shifted from the mundane to the magickal.

[Lotion]

There are people at the margin who would pick a fully classed mage but won't play one with a subclass; if there's even seven of them, that's a cool ten percent of the playerbase shifted from the mundane to the magickal.

https://www.armageddon.org/updates/
I haven't done a proper statistical analysis on that yet but I feel like there's a very high likelihood that you are underestimating the number of unique players who regularly login by a factor of two. Even if your baseless guess of seven players who would suddenly permanently be playing full guild mages all of the time after previously having never played a mage was correct then it would be five percent of the playerbase.

Here's my baseless claim on what these supposed full time mundane players who will suddenly play a full guild magicker will do:
One of them will try to fuck around in the Pah and get dunked immediately and then play a mundane again
Two will try to fuck around in the Grasslands and get dunked and then play a mundane again
One will try to fuck around in the mantis valley and die to a rantarri and then play a mundane again
Two will take gems and become oash circle mages and never be allowed to do anything interesting except show up to an RPT to cast buff spells on oash circle mages with real main guilds
One will join the crimson wind to spar for an irl year and then get hands of winded the moment word of their existence spreads and then do it again

[MeTekillot]

Once upon a time there were level 20 wizards and psions driving massive plots of their own, and now everyone is a level 7 adventurer, and all those truly powerful figures are NPC's run exclusively by staff. Where's the appeal in that?

[MeTekillot]

Sometimes it feels like the reward that I can expect for working hard to contribute to the game is that I get to watch somebody play with their action figures with the expectation that I be impressed.

[Patuk]

Sometimes it feels like the reward that I can expect for working hard to contribute to the game is that I get to watch somebody play with their action figures with the expectation that I be impressed.

If it makes you feel better, this is basically what the Dark Sun campaign books look like.

[Alesan]

You've basically described what the game is like for players who prefer mundanes over magickal characters.

[wizturbo]

The staff interactions required with high level magickers was no different than the staff interactions required for dozens of other roles in the game.  One of the most amazing things about Armageddon is its potential for epic plotlines that other games just couldn't support.  It's a shame that we're not embracing that aspect of the game more.

Honestly, it boils down to one simple point.   The full guilds were extremely fun.  Fun for more than just the player behind the wheel, they were fun for the entire player base.  The whole point of a game is to have fun, and the removal of these guilds didn't help towards that goal.

[wizturbo]

whoops.  duplicated.

[Riev]

I understand the FOMO of not getting to see what its like to learn to become an elemental, or turn into the biggest fireball, etc.

I think part of the problem lies in finding out "what is turning into an elemental equivalent to in mundane terms?". If I play a warrior, what is my "becoming an elemental"? Leadership roles? Nah. Mastering my weapon skills? Twink. Fighting a big creature? Probably better to be non-mundane anyway.

I think one of the coolest non-mundane (mostly) plot I've been involved in was with the Byn, and involved being contracted to help enslave a de-virtualized tribe. It was humanoid vs humanoid and didn't involve gith. Sure there was SOME magick but the plot didn't revolve around it. I imagine it took a LONG TIME to get it all set up, but it was the most fun in the Byn I've had in some time.

Non-plot wise, though... I agree with other posters. It was fun to make magick central to my character. Its also fun to make magick a PROBLEM to overcome. I liked playing 'the shaman'. I can do that with subguilds but it doesn't feel the same.

[MeTekillot]

You've basically described what the game is like for players who prefer mundanes over magickal characters.

The setting is based around magick, psionics, and the consequences of their use.

I think if you base your character around interacting with these themes as little as possible that maybe you shouldn't be quite as surprised or disappointed when your projected effect on the game and other players isn't quite so dynamic.

[triste]

Lo and behold, this setting [mostly] supports all of our wants. Maybe that is why we're all [mostly] playing.

First, glad people are catching on to the "why not both" idea I have advocated for forever, but I hear the complaints that mundane plots are what they favor. It's possible the solution is already in game for you if you hate magick: Tuluk.

I don't want to spill the beans, but if anything the debate here just motivated me to kudos the good people keeping Tuluk magick free.

Faithful Against Drunk Defiling