Economy Feedback - wood

[JustAnotherGuy]

To be honest, I've taken advantage of the wood prices a handful of times and I always felt it was excessive how much could be made rather easily.  For anyone that is experienced in the game, starting a character in the south, heading up north to get logs and craft a few basics chests (which takes little time to skill up to, especially with tools), and then head south and sell with massive profit, is rather easy.  The only "risk" is going from Allanak to Luir's, MAYBE from Luir's to wood due to some spawns that happen in those areas, but if you made a buddy that can get you there and back, and you toss them a few coins, still easy.

The easiest way to make coins in the game is with player interaction, and personally that is the best way to make coins.  Even with a change to wood prices, players will still make a bunch of coins easy.  I think the issue is that people don't want to go through the steps, the monotony, to do it.  Personally the game should be harder to make coins, it should be difficult, and if you want to do the minor "safe" money making grind, then you'll be like every other vNPC grebber out there trying to make coins for a meal.  We're not playing "Heroes" of Zalanthas, we're playing Survivors that can end up making an awesome story of their struggles.

Personally I want to know more about the furniture changes.  Gimme more content!

[triste]

The wood market used to be truly obscene without merchant inventory persistence. Now that we have inventory persistence,  I've seen cases where if you have 2-4 active woodworkers it can actually be quite a pain to make money due to full merchant inventories.

Given the north south conflict and that woodworkers have to go between north and south to make money, there should be even less of a problem. Don't like woodworkers? Great, you now have an excuse for killing them for being on one side of the shieldwall or another. Even if they aren't a Nakki or a Tuluki, well, false accusations are in theme aren't they!

IMO we need to fix other crafts to be more profitable, like clothworking. Woodworking pays so much because of the regional material factor, but clothworking has been excessively nerfed with the justification that you can get cloth anywhere. But I find this to be terribly unfair to characters who are stuck in cities, and this is in part why people are probably considering nerfing woodworking.

[Maso]

I totally get that, just trying to answer the questions in earnest. 

But there's also an element of balancing theme and the 'Zalanthan' mindset with the player mindset and enjoyability of the game.. I guess?

That said, I'm curious to see how it plays out.. it's basically an economic experiment which is pretty interesting. :p

Personally I think there will always be a couple of 'sand kings or queens' around, and there should be. Gotta have slum lords too. Most people seem pretty damn poor most of the time, from where I am anyway.

[mansa]

Whenever I think about the economy, I always go to the base level.  Where does the raw materials you work with come from?

For woodworking - go out and "use movement points to create wood items"
For stoneworking - go out and "use movement points to create stone items"
For jewelrymaking - go out and "use movement points to create precious stone items"
For clothworking - go buy cloth, and then craft it into other items.
For weaponcrafting - go kill a beast, skin it.  AND/OR gather wood AND/OR gather stones
For armorcrafting - go kill a beast, skin it.  AND/OR gather wood AND/OR gather stones
For cooking - go kill a beast, skin in.


The tricky one here, for the most part, is clothworking, as you have to buy the material in order to work with it, so you're at a loss before you've even started making coins. I do know that the staff recently introduced a clothing type - sandsilk - that can be gathered by players, so maybe we should invest in sandsilk items as a potential profit making scheme...

For the rest of the crafting skills, a single player may be able to produce the raw materials out of nothing, and then convert them into valuable items.



Regarding wood changes - I haven't played enough to get my opinion on it, yet...

[triste]

Yeehaw, thanks for indirectly backing me up Mansa, gives me hope people actually read what I post here even if I don't get credit ever.

Fix clothworking and you fix the economy whining IMO.

And if you think someone is too rich? Beat them up for their money or extort them for money depending on your strategy.

[triste]

And because I am a good-idea-machine...

Reiteration of previous good idea with in game anecdote:

Literally this is what the solution to the woodworking problem is.

Woodworker: Wow these woods sure are safe! I can chop wood until I am near totally exhausted! WELL. Guess it's time to sit on my butt and rest.

Raider: Well look at this sitting tregil...

(One in game hour later,  that raider suddenly has a new inix, tons of wood money, and that woodworker is nearly dead on foot or... well, dead)

This happened exactly to me about a year ago. Think you're the most elite woodworker ever and this wouldn't happen? Well try getting blasted fifteen rooms away from your mount by a Whiran and it will happen. I was never more pleased by Whirans than when I was raided by one as a woodworker who COMPLETELY DESERVED IT.

New good thought, sorry if someone said this:

Woodworking and lumberjacking are some of the dangerous professions IRL, and this is without kryl, yompar and Whirans. In fact it is the MOST dangerous job in North America. Throw in a chance of a tree or branch falling on you now and then and possibly doing enough damage to even kill. Problem solved, realistically to boot.

[Dar]

We have an entire thread dedicated to Halaster asking the community why they do (or don't) play, and the most common refrain there is people not having the time to do a slew of things. Making it take even longer for characters to establish themselves is a bug, not a feature.

I'm sorry, but being insanely rich is not being established. Not having a choice of "I need to go greb to have sid for food/water, so I have to end this rp scene in a tavern" is important. But I also don't remember having such a choice set before me in decades at least

[Dresan]

I strongly disagree with Patuk

There is just a big difference between coded grind and wealth in game. You cannot compare rolling a 35 year old hunter who cannot ride, and not having the money to buy the very best gear salarr can sell. One is a coded mechanic that adds tedium and the other is a theme.

Additionally if this were a game where gear mattered more then skills or stats I might agree to a point but it is not. Gear in particularly weapons is nice to have not must have for accomplishing things in this game. Whats worse is that the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is often known through OOC sharing of information. Its very hard, if not twinkish to experiment with gear in this game, it generally makes gear a matter of preference for those of us who haven't become good friends with a staff member.

In fact if we look at past arguement, the biggest problem with money in the game is that we quickly run out of things to spend it on. People make coins too fast without having any crafting skills or being one of the merchantile classes. Everyone and their mothers having 10k in the bank and the best gear money can buy has been great demerit to many aspects of the game especially for merchant classes, because the money they generate doesn't matter as much. Then there are people that even need to go as far as having to 'RP' being poor, by junking coins or nobles invoking noble birthright of influence rather than just plain old wealth to get their way.

I've argued before that we need more money sinks in the game such as promoting the use of spice in game but this is also a better way to look at it, people are too rich, and making everyone poorer will be good for the game.

Furthermore in a perfect world, things would be balanced as shown below:

• Store/NPC loaded stuff--- Always available,  affordable, servicable but POOR gear quality/function
• All PC made stuff------Somewhat common, prices negotiable, GOOD gear quaility/function, will disappear from stores at steady pace due to PC and vNPC demand.
• GMH----uncommon, expensive, you need a know a noble, templar or someone with status to be talk to an agent. BEST gear quality/function. This stuff should disappear extremely quickly from stores do to VNPC and PC demand.

The merchants working for the GMH houses should only be selling stuff they can craft which should be Good qaulity stuff, but not the very best. Everything in general should be following the example above. Unfortunately stuff made by PC is often considered crap compared to the comon stuff you can buy at any shop. Not to mention, the shops often have good GMH gear anyways after someone died, because the vnpc sell code seems random rather than prioritize expensives and good quality stuff. 

In reality managing to wipe out a raider camp and finding a chest with 1000 sid and good gear should really be something worth celebrating about in this game, but it isn't. I think by making balancing wealth attainment in this game, it'll actually be beneficial to the game, especially when people are looking for a change and want to play something other than a combat capable character. And heck even if people don't play merchantile classes, the game will carry on fine with the poor quality stuff sold in stores.

[Brokkr]

When I think back to 2000, the advice you would get if you were struggling to survive would be to join a clan.  So far here, the feedback seems to be mostly from the perspective of someone not in a clan.  Or at least, that aspect isn't really elaborated on much.  If you don't have time to be successful as an independent, in terms of generating what you need for survival, it would seem the obvious answer would be a clan, whether that is a House, MMH, tribe, or whatever form the group takes IG.

[roughneck]

Triple the price of rent.

Editted to add some wood relevance: make baobab wood less useful. Make hardwoods very rare, and woods like baobab that are common, spongy and not very useful for quality weapons, armor and other goods.

[triste]

Triple the price of rent.

Are you serious?

_{^{if you do this please continue to have sketchy apartments with sketchy locks that are inadequate for storing materials but are adequate for [redacted]}}

[roughneck]

Triple the price of rent.

Are you serious?

_{^{if you do this please continue to have sketchy apartments with sketchy locks that are inadequate for storing materials but are adequate for [redacted]}}

Ab-so-fucking-lutely

Allanak seems like the type of place to me that it might take a family of 4 all working hard and contributing to be able to afford. Not 1 person with a side hustle making knives out of rocks.

[triste]

Sure, agreed from an economic standpoint. I just best not be seeing negative account notes for smanging in an alley in the 'Rinth with a change like this. Some people have basic needs besides coin!

_{^{* edit and PSA for newer players. Hooking up in public is a naughty no-no in Armageddon just like its a naughty no-no on OnlyFans. I've gotten negative account notes for it once or twice. Don't be like me and my GF who got banned from OnlyFans.}}

[betweenford]

In terms of grebbing, lots of item tables are like... Kinda silly at the higher end. Glass is really easy to get mechanically for the price and usual risk(without pc raiders). Obsidian is largely fine. Salting is alot of inferred(but not actual) risk, would be good if prices on salting were adjusted a little bit to make it *slightly* more viable, maybe also make the area as a whole less stamina intensive(sometimes it isnt even that hot there but holy crap other areas are equally as and eight times as hot dry and theyre not that bad). Finding *certain* gems is absolutely a common occurrence and their prices don't really reflect their virtual rarity or how common they are.

Logging is ridiculously ez unless youre hunting for rare wood to cut.
Clothworking tends to be a timesink but alot of the variety in it isnt "worth" producing, especially when alot of items only make one 30 sid braies or something. Even the silk prices are kinda scuffed in that trend, it isn't worth it to produce alot of silken items when it makes like a 70 sid loss.
Stoneworking is fine but could do with more variety.
Clayworking(with glaze) is absolutely nutso and cool but not alot of npc shopkeepers buy those items.

Toolmaking.......... Can actually get a bit nuts with profit margins, just look at every tool shop lol.



Kinda cool things are being addressed but stuff's all over the place!

[Dresan]

I would agree with increasing rent, but I don't feel apartments have been made worth using for anything other than to store heavy unimportant stuff and privacy for mudsex.

If you gave people cheaper option to mudsex with other people, like a motel they could rent for a session, I bet apartments would become obsolete.

Also at the moment apartments feel like deathtraps. This needs to be addressed before increasing apartment rent makes any sense.

Edit to add: I am okay with someone taking a crafter subclass (instead of a mage/stealth) to be able to make coins relatively easily. Less okay with anything above a light merchantile class being able to do the same, that includes light combat and to a lesser extend survialist(mixed) classes. 

[Halaster]

Triple the price of rent.

I'd rather see more high-end places available without removing/reducing the low-end ones.

[Dresan]

All gear needing to eventually need to be replaced would resolve things. Basically, armor, weapons and even clothing on you would wear out slowly. You can only repair armor a certain number of times before you need to buy a new one, particularly shields and weapons. Great gear would last much longer of course but would still need to be replaced.

Again there would always be gear that is cheap and readily available so you won't be naked or unable to do stuff.

However, I know that people in this game love their virtual stuff in this game, and this would not sit well with them. As evidenced by how much crying there is when  soap is stolen from their pack and they swear upon the heavens to never enter a tavern again, not to mention the recent changes to steal.

[williamson]

Triple the price of rent.

I'd rather see more high-end places available without removing/reducing the low-end ones.

I agree. This is a good way to pull money out of the game and gives burglars more options.

[triste]

All gear needing to eventually need to be replaced would resolve things. Basically, armor, weapons and even clothing on you would wear out slowly. You can only repair armor a certain number of times before you need to buy a new one, particularly shields and weapons. Great gear would last much longer of course but would still need to be replaced.

Again there would always be gear that is cheap and readily available so you won't be naked or unable to do stuff.

However, I know that people in this game love their virtual stuff in this game, and this would not sit well with them. As evidenced by how much crying there is when  soap is stolen from their pack and they swear upon the heavens to never enter a tavern again, not to mention the recent changes to steal.

+1 to armor and weapons wearing out more, particularly if people with high skill in <armor repair> can do better repairs than shops can at masterful levels, thereby making that skill actually useful.

[Narf]

Triple the price of rent.

I'd rather see more high-end places available without removing/reducing the low-end ones.

I agree. This is a good way to pull money out of the game and gives burglars more options.

I'm not sure I understand how making appartments harder to afford will help burglars?

Pickpockets maybe...

[Narf]

For those coming up with their own ideas on how to fix the economy, please keep this in mind:

New Players already have plenty of problems making coin. The problems with the economy stem from more experienced players taking advantage of loopholes in the cost structure. Making things that new players buy a "cost sink" to take away coins is a bad idea. Stick to closing big money loopholes that new players probably haven't figure out anyways.

[williamson]

Triple the price of rent.

I'd rather see more high-end places available without removing/reducing the low-end ones.

I agree. This is a good way to pull money out of the game and gives burglars more options.

I'm not sure I understand how making appartments harder to afford will help burglars?

Pickpockets maybe...

There are 15 rentable apartments in Allanak.
The staff add 5 new fancy ones with high rents.
People who rent these new apartments have less coins.
Burglars have 20 apartments to rob instead of 15.

[X-D]

Brokkr wrote:

When I think back to 2000, the advice you would get if you were struggling to survive would be to join a clan.  So far here, the feedback seems to be mostly from the perspective of someone not in a clan.  Or at least, that aspect isn't really elaborated on much.  If you don't have time to be successful as an independent, in terms of generating what you need for survival, it would seem the obvious answer would be a clan, whether that is a House, MMH, tribe, or whatever form the group takes IG.

Question is, why was that advice in place?
Hint, It was not the price of wood. (still not against working on the economy BTW just pointing out something here)
It was several things that effected the economy. EVEN in clans. Like water...water actually was harder to get, no clan had a "perm" Water source for free water, Almost no clan had a free food NPC, but for the Byn and that provided some of your water too. The wilderness was arguably far greater in danger as well. I mean, nobody really wants to go back to the roaming gith death squads that used to be...but only because of how buggy they were.

If it was me, I would be looking at the changes that put the economy where it is now.

For instance, other then what was already stated above, Let us look at the payouts for all the "scripted" Methods to make coin. Now, I do not have a problem with those existing...but I find that a PC can make WAY too much money per day on any of them but clay digging. When a PC can make over 300 per RL day shoveling dung and then another 300+ on obsidian then another 600+ on glass...and this is just one area and we are not even including salt because it at least carries some risk. I mean really, 1200 a day just on those activities? Then you have areas where a large amount of coin can be earned without the skinning skill bringing in low risk critters, then that buy rather large amounts of wood.

Now I am not saying these things should go away, Or even the payout per item change. But I think there should be much lower hard caps as to how much the npcs will buy from a PC.

There is a LOT more...economy rebalance would be a major undertaking to get back to around 2000. Because we have over 20 years of inflation all over the market. The merchant houses for instance. Both in NPC shops and PCs, the prices have been hiked MANY times over the years.

In 2000 skinning scripts were also MUCH smaller, there was far less to sell off of one animal and higher danger. Today even small, totally safe animals can gain you 100 coins.

And oddly enough...water prices have not gone up with everything else.

Anyway, I say keep pecking at the issue...it might be possible to fix.

(edit)
I do not see changing rent prices helping anything, I bet less then half of the "rich" PC's rent anything anyway. None of mine in the past few years have and knew very few with the same level of coin that did either.

Adding very high end coin sinks could be helpful...And they need not even be big to justify prices...just much more secure.

[Dresan]

I know I am derailing a bit but imagine:

• If crafted gear was not only GOOD in regards to quality and functionality but potentially GREAT if you can make custom gear. 
• On top of that if it was also convinient if you could make it because gear would need to be replaced.
• As being one of the few ways of being relatively well off in terms of wealth because easy means of making money disappeared.

There would be such a positive impact to the game beyond re-enforcing the poorness theme. Off the top of my head, an raider/weaponcrafter or armorcrafters would be a solid choice for combat heavy characters, soliders would be a much more desirable class to choose, there would probably be more crafting sub-classes in the game them mages and merchants classes would have a much more important coded role in game equal to other classes.

[mansa]

Triple the price of rent.

I'd rather see more high-end places available without removing/reducing the low-end ones.

In terms of Renting Apartments / Warehouses.
The current rental program is for 125 in-game days, which is roughly 8 real-life days.

Your character needs to do activities to generate obsidian coins every week to renew your rent for one more week.
This means that in addition to hunger/thirst satiation, you need to do activities to generate coin to meet the character's rent, if they have an apartment/warehouse.

So, there is a balance required, as some players have longer playtimes than other players, and the goal is that players don't have to "do chores" in order to enjoy playing the game. 

When they change the prices of (expensive) tent items to become cheaper, your 10 minutes you may have spent crafting enough tents to pay for your rent now needs to be spread out to other crafts, OR make a decision to to downgrade your apartment / warehouse OR make a decision to join a clan that has it's own warehouse and stop paying rent by yourself.