Encourage spice use with more spice code

[MeTekillot]

Due to the upcoming release of Dune, I've been doing a lot of thinking about spice. I'm also a player who judiciously uses spice on almost all of my characters, both to try to encourage its use in other players because I find it themely, and also because it has extremely robust bonuses if used right.

So my ideas is as follows, to encourage its use by more people via making spice even more effective (with drawbacks), and by making it easier to use.

===Casual Spice User===
Functions more or less the same as spice does now with the addition of the following:

• Occasionally send message to the player to let them know how close they are to becoming addicted to a certain type of spice.

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A passing desire/persistent want/gnawing need for methelinoc floats through your awareness.
You find yourself unable to get the feeling of zharal out of your mind.
You sense a flagging in your self-confidence; you also sense that a pinch of melem tuek would easily remedy it.


• Generic messages or tailored messages that flesh out how exactly the spice benefits the person, either way.
• As well, give the player tiered messages as they approach the instant death overdose threshold of too much spice use.

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After using that krelez, you suddenly find yourself short of breath as your heart slams alarmingly in your chest.
You become uncomfortably aware of a foreboding strain in your muscles as the melem tuek courses through you.
After that last bit of methelinoc, you feel a sudden but fleeting mental fog clouding over your sharpened awareness.


• These messages could be prompted to the player when they are 50% and 75% of the way toward an overdose of the spice.

From this, I also propose adding two levels of spice addiction past this point.
Spice Addict
Spice Fiend
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• When they reach Spice Addiction, a person who is 'watch'ing them talk without a face covering will occasionally notice -- via the same interface as hemotes -- that there is a bluish tinge to their teeth and gums.

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You notice: As he speaks, you spot streaks of cyan blue veins through the tall, muscular man's gums.
You notice: Whilst talking, flashes of blue can be seen on the tall, muscular man's teeth.


• A spice addict will also suffer the addiction code as it currently stands if they decide to abstain. If they survive through it, they can settle back to the level of a casual spice user.
• However, in exchange for their reliance on spice, a Spice Addict should have a heightened threshold for overdose, and benefit more from spice use.
• I would argue that the bonuses should be appreciable but not ludicrous. 25-50% increase to overdose, 50% to 75% increase to the bonuses from use?

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And to the proposed final level of being a "Spice Fiend" (maybe a little dramatic, but a working title)

• The same as a Spice Addict, as pertains to speaking without a facial covering.
• They can never undo their reliance on spice, barring some sort of likely magickal or otherwise astronomically difficult to obtain herbal decoction.
• As well, anyone who looks at them will notice their eyes are blue -- if their eyes are uncovered anyway. It would append to 'assess' and to their long description, in much the same manner of some current affects. Anyone watching them when they 'scan', 'assess', or 'look' would also have a chance to notice, even if their eyes are covered.

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The tall, muscular man is in excellent condiiton.
The tall, muscular man's eyes are solid orbs of cyan blue, iris and sclera barely distinguishable.
--
The tall, muscular man scans the area intently.
You notice: As his eyes dart about, you can see the tall, muscular man's eyes are uniformly cyan in color.


• If they cease their use of spice, they will suffer damage in a manner quite similar to the starvation and dehydration systems until they receive another dose.

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You are struck with both a blinding pain in your skull and a maddening desire for methelinoc.
Weakness saps your limbs as if from an outside force -- you can barely move without more melem tuek.
You feel a lurch in your chest and darkness creeps into the edges of your vision. You need more krelez.


• In exchange for becoming hopelessly dependent on spice, the character's overdose threshold and benefit from spice use should be raised significantly. Perhaps two or three times that of a Casual Spice User, with perhaps double or 250% the benefits of each dose.

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I believe this could add significantly to the flavor of our world. Rather than every impactful antagonist plot being reliant on taking out some magickal threat, it could be something as mundane as a pack of Spice Fiending raiders out in the sands, their bodies both warped and superhuman due to their abuse of the melange.
--
Or, another avenue of leverage and competition to whoever wants to be the baddest fighter, the fastest rogue, deftest crafter, or slickest merchant in the Bazaar.
--
A bounty could be placed by this month's flavor of Allanki Templar -- five small for every head with the eyes of a Spice Fiend.
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In true culture shock fashion, being able to reach this level of bodily dependence on spice could be a status symbol for Tuluki Citizenry and Nobility. Their expertise and capability is unquestionable, because they have the finances to push their bodies and minds beyond metahuman limits without the foul taint of magick. And when the most talented artisans, bards, and warriors in the city find themselves too proud for their betters? It takes only a word from a Faithful or Chosen to have their supply cut off until they fall into step.

I think this would ultimately encourage more spice use. Not even with everybody desiring to have a spice-addicted characters -- the cautious messaging I suggested as regards to overdose and addiction can have more people occasionally using spice to bolster their odds without the anxiety over addiction with no warning.

I think spice use is themely, and while I do believe the systems in place already encourage it, I think it could be encouraged more while adding to both the coded and the atmospheric systems of the game. Not every plot has to be based around magick. With this, many more plots could come to be placed around spice, as they should be. And it would do so in an organic way.

[Veselka]

This is excellent and spot on with theme and execution. The Tuluki bit is also exquisite and perfectly solves two issues that stand out In my mind always: the purpose of spice and the staying power of House Kurac.

[Greve]

Encourage spice use by reverting the decay code. Spice isn't food. It's literally sifted out of the sand. Why does it rot as fast as a hunk of meat? In terms of its physical properties, it seems more or less like cannabis/hashish. I never understood why it was made to rot inside a RL week.

[Dresan]

I've always argued for refined spice from kurac. A spice that decays slower, and last way way longer.

Spice would be great before big missions or escorts but its not because the damn thing wears out before people even leave the gates. Then the idea becomes, well you can always take more, but how?With your sergeant and maybe a templar watching you.

Its inconvinent.

If it lasted a day or two more people would have a stash of it somewhere. The only thing its currently good for is if you know you are just about to stab someone on the back and you want a small boost. The threat of overdosing and withdraws keeps people from always being spiced out of their minds.

[MeTekillot]

The threat of overdosing and withdraws keeps people from always being spiced out of their minds.

Yes, precisely. I know from personal experience the levels of spice use a particular character can tolerate are quite high, but it can't really be expected for every player to know. That's why I propose my overdose and addiction warnings be added, if neglecting all the rest.

[Greve]

Addiction is insanely punitive, too. It may be different from one spice to the other, but the one time I had a character become addicted, it was essentially the end of that character. His health, stamina and stun dwindled down to 1/1 and stayed there for the next, like... 48 hours of play, which amounts to something like 30 in-game days. Eventually I walked into a one-room fall and died. While it did take quite a bit of spice to become addicted, it's not like it was months of constant use. In fact it was less than a brick. I obtained a brick that wasn't quite full, smoked once per in-game day, and when it was all gone, the character was addicted and became literally unplayable. Couldn't even use the Way due to having a max stun of 1. This was some years ago but I haven't heard of any changes.

[Tranquil]

+1 to all this.

[Veselka]

I would much rather spice addiction be nuanced compared to just SPAMMING you with come down messages, and your stats all dropping.

I really like OP's idea about the culture shock of it being considered 'HIGH CLASS' in Tuluk to be associated with spice/spice physical effects. I really like the idea of becoming Spice Reliant, to the point that you can take a shitload of spice without overdosing as easily, but you CANNOT survive without spice. Sounds like a huge trade off and makes House Kurac all the more interesting to me.

[oggotale]

The way it is right now isn't it that every spice addict eventually gets f-ed over into incompetence EVEN IF they keep up supplies?

Like when your needs reach a point that you'll literally die?

If that's the case - that should be one big change atleast - addicts can be penalised in the absence of spice but for the same of keeping up RP and interactions they should be okay as long as they can keep up the supply.

[Jihelu]

Haven't commented yet but: I like the ideas here

[Iiyola]

On a side note: Welcome back Metekillot.... I haven't seen you in a while

[MeTekillot]

Thank you, that's nice of you. It's good to see you too.

[MeTekillot]

An idea someone proposed in the Discord the other night (I think it was Lotion? Sorry for not remembering):

Instead of futzing about with how much benefit each dose gives, have each level of addiction just give a flat benefit to stats.

Passive addiction (+1 to stat, +10 to derived stat such as stamina, stun, health, etc.)
Dependence (current adiction, +3 to stat, +30 to derived stat)
Lethal dependence (Not implemented, you eventually die without your spice and you can never be cured of it barring possible magickal assistance, +6 to stat, +60 to derived stat)

[Dan]

Encourage spice use by reverting the decay code. Spice isn't food. It's literally sifted out of the sand. Why does it rot as fast as a hunk of meat? In terms of its physical properties, it seems more or less like cannabis/hashish. I never understood why it was made to rot inside a RL week.

All for reversing the spice decay code.

[Jihelu]

There's a weird fine line between making something a commodity worth buying and making it a pain in the ass and not worth it.

If armor doesn't break it becomes something you buy once and never use, if spice never decays you buy it once and perhaps use it very infrequently. Making armor break makes it necessary to buy more, making spice decay supposedly does the same thing.
It seems the decay is too fast though.

Really I think the decay should be lowered and it would be nice if staff would have a discussion over it, perhaps with the players, of what people expect a good delay should be that
A: Emphasizes that you should use your spice
B: Makes it worthwhile to use and not 'I'll buy it and never actually use it'

It would also be nice to know what the actual rates of decay WERE (AKA: The old ones, assuming we are changing them, not necessarily the current ones)

[dumbstruck]

I feel like that is comparing wildly different things, so different  in fact, I have to wonder if you are aware that spice is a consumable like food. I mean, literally, if you ACTUALLY use it, you have to buy more if you want to keep using it. Unlike food however, if people don't like the spice decay code, they can just opt not to deal with spice, not so with food, and it seems like that is what is happening. So why would you need spice to decay to encourage people to buy it when it seems like the people who did buy and use it no longer are specifically because of the decay code? Unless my reading comprehension is lacking, that is?

[Jihelu]

I feel like that is comparing wildly different things, so different  in fact, I have to wonder if you are aware that spice is a consumable like food. I mean, literally, if you ACTUALLY use it, you have to buy more if you want to keep using it. Unlike food however, if people don't like the spice decay code, they can just opt not to deal with spice, not so with food, and it seems like that is what is happening. So why would you need spice to decay to encourage people to buy it when it seems like the people who did buy and use it no longer are specifically because of the decay code? Unless my reading comprehension is lacking, that is?

Armor, and weapons, are consumed when you use them against other people.
Both are 'consumed' in various ways.

The real reading comprehension question is: What are you trying to add to the discussion? My entire point was: The decay is too quick and you're nit picking a comparison.
My point was also: If spice doesn't decay we are vastly decreasing its value and any scarcity. I played before the spice ban and with several nobles, their spice boxes and the spice boxes they kept in the estates were fucking massive and there was very little reason to go out and buy more when you bought a shit load last year. You die, then the next noble finds the box and now never has to buy spice.
It was the same issue with poison and how people had 80 night night poisons sitting in apartments and bags because they never went away. Though the benefit wasn't buffing strength or getting high as fuck it was killing people.

" So why would you need spice to decay to encourage people to buy it when it seems like the people who did buy and use it no longer are specifically because of the decay code?"
Because it isn't about what people really 'want' it's about what makes a fun gameplay experience and balanced one. It's about not having pouches filled with spice that never goes away. The issue is fixed by pulling back the decay timer, not removing it entirely.

[MeTekillot]

as well, I think this idea will significantly contribute towards shorter lived characters acting in the game world instead of holding up the current status quo with people needing to grind up their skills for 2 to 5 days played before they start rocking around.

Yes, you could train up your combat skills or you could just get absolutely jacked to the tits on war and wisdom spice to the point where you're hopelessly addicted to it in exchange for becoming a combat Superman at two days played.

To anyone who might rebutt this with "but then everyone is going to feel like they need to use spice to be competitive"


.... uh, yeah. yes. precisely.

More spice means more smuggling means more plots, more murder, more corruption, more betrayal.

[dumbstruck]

If you say so. It seems to me like you played someone who wanted to sell more spice and couldn't and are blaming it on there being spice left over making it undesirable to buy more spice. If the fix (making it decay even though it makes no sense for it to decay) is also making people not want to buy spice, it doesn't seem like much of a fix does it? Objective question, has spice BUYING gone up at ALL since decay was put in or has it declined significantly?

[Riev]

If you say so. It seems to me like you played someone who wanted to sell more spice and couldn't and are blaming it on there being spice left over making it undesirable to buy more spice. If the fix (making it decay even though it makes no sense for it to decay) is also making people not want to buy spice, it doesn't seem like much of a fix does it? Objective question, has spice BUYING gone up at ALL since decay was put in or has it declined significantly?

Currently spice does decay.
The longer it is in world, the more it decays, unless you have it in a proper container. It may still be 'usable' as it decays but it looks bad.
Once it has gone to oil and hardened, it is no longer of any use.

What I think Jihelu is saying is that the decay time is still too short, and some people purchase and never use it... so it gets 'consumed' without providing any benefit to the purchaser at all.

He is not saying it NEEDS to decay. He's saying it does, and it should, and going back to when it DIDN'T was a bad time.

[sucre]

Maybe instead of decaying and becoming rancid, it could lose potency? It might still give a brief high, but it wouldn't spoil?

I have very little experience with the spice code, admittedly. I don't know if this is already how it works.

[Jihelu]

Maybe instead of decaying and becoming rancid, it could lose potency? It might still give a brief high, but it wouldn't spoil?

I have very little experience with the spice code, admittedly. I don't know if this is already how it works.

As far as I'm aware of this isn't the case, spice goes from perfectly fine to gone with no inbetween stages that I've seen (I had some in my personal box once and it just randomly disappeared one day, and this is in a secure location with a single key that I possess.)

To quote the wisdom of Goldilocks and the three bears.
No decay is too hot
Too much decay is too cold
There's an inbetween somewhere.

[Dar]

I'll admit. The whole concept of spice and illegality of it is so awesome and yet so underused. The reason it's underused is not the danger, or even expense. It's the hassle. It is simply not worth the effort except in rare very situational occasions. And none of those requires you to maintain a habit, or maintain illicit relationships.

Personally, I think it's a wasted opportunity. I think the spice should be altered to be worth the hassle.

Right now. Even as a member of kurac who could get spice dirt cheap, I would find the need to go get it and maintain its freshness too great a hassle/too little gain to keep a war ready spice kit. I would always have Tho for entertainment reasons, but warspices? Didn't bother.  Am I alone in this?

[Narf]

I do think one of the inhibitors to spice use is the fact that it's not common knowledge that posession or use of spice is only supposed to be worthy of a small fine in Allanak.

If you look at the laws board, spice use is at the very bottom of the fineable offenses (meaning it's supposed to be the least severe)

[MeTekillot]

I agree that the perceived negatives towards the layman as regards to spice use do outweigh the positives which themselves are already pretty appreciable.

The problem is that the addiction and overdose mechanics are opaque and you can really only learn about them if you ask somebody else or use your current character as a guinea pig to experiment with it.

As it is now it's more like a potion of +whatever... except potions in DND usually don't run the risk of crippling your stats for however long it takes you to recover or causing you to die horribly from overdose or to get your ass tanned by a Templar who is bored as shit

Thus my initial idea and as well the idea I proposed just a few posts up. Spice should be just as attractive as magick buffs, RANGZ, or a minmaxed character build.

Current sustained use seems to have nothing but penalties and difficulties ( for some reason). This ideas for there to be rewards to balance out those penalties and for there to be more penalties added but paired with even more appreciable rewards, if you decide to take your character down the path of the spice fiend.

and I'm glad that you guys are talking about spice decay code being kind of a pain in the ass but even before we had spice decay code almost nobody used it anyway.