Reasons to make extended sub-classes better.

[Dresan]

I was thinking about infiltrators and it occured to me that I didn't have an issue with them having low master stealth or even max stealth. The problem I have is them having this level of stealth and still being able to be a mul or choose a mage sub-class. Not to mention it feels like a nerf to elves who can make good use of this class. However, there is another thread for this discussion and that is not what this thread is about.

What might work better is improving extended subclasses stealth to low master and if a person feels their infiltrator/scout needs more stealth then they would have this option. In general I think improving extended subclasses just a bit more will ultimately be good for the game, and it would also make people think a bit harder whether they want to choose that mage subclass (not saying there are too many mages).

I am sure other people have other idea but here are some of mine:

• Improve stealth to low master on cutpurse, slipknife, rogue and outdoorsman
• Give rogue advanced search
• Give grebber advance skinning
• Give rough rider direction sense
• Give watelander advanced sneak
• Add pick making to a crafting subclass
• Lancer, aggressor, bruiser, berserker will give an additional +1 skill boost to its respective weapon skill

[Narf]

Why just improve the extended subs though? Is there any reason not to increase skills a bit on the subguilds as well?

That aside, my preference would be to nerf the main guilds a bit to balance out any improvement to the subguilds.

[Dresan]

Why just improve the extended subs though? Is there any reason not to increase skills a bit on the subguilds as well?

That aside, my preference would be to nerf the main guilds a bit to balance out any improvement to the subguilds.

Regular sub-guilds are pretty good for what they offer at 0 karma. They certainly add good amount of flavor and utility. Miscreant/outlaw, stalker/house servant just as examples.

I personally don't think making classes completely sub-par is a good idea, enhance yes, require a sub-guild like enforcer for backstab/sap no.

[GetKanked]

ESGs are fine, the real fix is to remove non-E subguilds and give them to everyone at 0 karma.

[Patuk]

ESG's were designed with very, very different guilds around than we have today. They're pretty cool, but they synergise poorly with the main guilds of the day, and a redesign is not a bad idea.

[Armaddict]

I'm on the opposite side of this.  New classes already make people near-independent of each other.  ESG's -as they are- solidify that.  I'd say remove ESG's entirely, and rework normal subs.

[Narf]

I'm on the opposite side of this.  New classes already make people near-independent of each other.  ESG's -as they are- solidify that.  I'd say remove ESG's entirely, and rework normal subs.

I'm of a similar opinion, but different solution. Make the main classes worse, and the subguilds (all of them) better. I think main classes get far too large an array of skills. I'd prefer to narrow their focus a bit, and then let people customize with more tenable subguilds.

[Dresan]

New classes already make people near-independent of each other.  ESG's -as they are- solidify that.

I am not sure I agree with this completely. If anything this is really only the case for wilderness classes. The same cannot be said for criminal and city classes.

ESG's were designed with very, very different guilds around than we have today. They're pretty cool, but they synergise poorly with the main guilds of the day, and a redesign is not a bad idea.

I agree with this opinion.

That said, I believe strong mundane options are good for the game, so I would still want to see 0 and 1 karma sub-guilds. On a side note I would want to see skill boosts (that cost karma) worked into the applicaiton process

[Dresan]

I'm of a similar opinion, but different solution. Make the main classes worse, and the subguilds (all of them) better. I think main classes get far too large an array of skills. I'd prefer to narrow their focus a bit, and then let people customize with more tenable subguilds.

I do like this idea.

For example even if its just for PVE does raider really need slings and low level sneak/hide? Replace archery in outdoorsman with low master sling, better stealth and it would be a solid pick if someone playing a raider decides they need those skills.

Does Enforcer really need blowgun with its lack of poison and poor stealth? What about low level sleight of hand, this is probably more of a liability to use with this class. I can see it being more useful for elves but if so maybe it should be inheriant to them. You could add blowgun use skill to slipknife, along with giving it the better stealth to use it.

The same could probably be done across all classes.

[creeper386]

I do think some overhauls it certain places would be interesting. I agree I think some classes look incredible compared to others.

My big pet peeve I think is that too many people get bandage. Pretty much every main combat class gets advanced or better. For the most part natural regen is already fast, bandage regen is really good. I don't might those rates, I think just giving everyone pretty solid medical knowledge is too much.

Raider based on what I see, far outclasses the other two heavy combat in my opinion as well. It sounds like some of the other tiers might have similar issues that are being looked at with the stealth skills.

I agree the ESGs and often the subguilds themselves either round out certain classes really well, to the point they can pretty much do whatever. And then other times they are just kind of "flavor".

[mansa]

Before we change anything,

What problem was the extended subclasses meant to solve?  Why were they created?  What's their intent?

[Dresan]

I do think some overhauls it certain places would be interesting. I agree I think some classes look incredible compared to others.

My big pet peeve I think is that too many people get bandage. Pretty much every main combat class gets advanced or better. For the most part natural regen is already fast, bandage regen is really good. I don't might those rates, I think just giving everyone pretty solid medical knowledge is too much.

City classes have it and the light surivalist wilderness classes. It might seem like everyone since stalker and scout are popular.

[Narf]

Before we change anything,

What problem was the extended subclasses meant to solve?  Why were they created?  What's their intent?

I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. Ultimately though, their original purpose is far less relevant than their current effect.

Subguilds in general though were explicitly made to make guild sniffing more difficult and allow characters to be more realistic in their capabilities. But they were originally designed back in the day where classes were much more pigeonholed and that purpose is a lot less relevant with the current classes.

[GetKanked]

They still do that.  And, frankly, generally do a great job with it too. If anything we should throw a few more skills an improve the ESGs a little, or if we pare down, give them skills that get to master that aren't just crafting skills.

[X-D]

I do not like any of the current subs....because of the new classes.

With legacy they sort of made sense...now, most of them do not. Almost any sub you take now, be it karma or not, simply makes little sense with the current classes. In almost every case you end up either doubling up on half the skills or ending up with a bunch that really make no sense to the class you chose.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

With all the talk of skills and changing things up, let's not forget about abilities. IMHO they are definitely a factor to be considered.

[GetKanked]

I do not like any of the current subs....because of the new classes.

With legacy they sort of made sense...now, most of them do not. Almost any sub you take now, be it karma or not, simply makes little sense with the current classes. In almost every case you end up either doubling up on half the skills or ending up with a bunch that really make no sense to the class you chose.

I definitely don't find this to be true.  Play with triste's guild picker for like 5m before you make your char and you generally only overlap 1 skill (which often offers an no-branch or easier branch of a cool skill).  You can just choose which flavor of a thing you want in the ESGs.

[Greve]

I generally don't like the freemium feel of the 0-karma subclasses, as compared to the extended ones. Magic subclasses are fine, there's valid reasons for them to have a lot of power potential. But if a new player learns that their current character is vastly inferior to the exact same type of character made by someone with karma for a better subclass, with no strings attached and no roleplaying obligations or risks, it's a little more likely to make them go "fuck this." If anything, I think mundane subclasses should all be 0 karma. If they were, I'd be all for making them better. As it stands, improving them will simply make 0-karma characters even worse, which is bad for new player retention and former player recovery.

Like it or not, people care about the coded worth of their characters, and if they face the reality that their lack of karma means their characters are distinctly second-rate, that's unhealthy for the game. It's already a little bit bad, and it'll be much worse if mundane karma subclasses come with truly powerful things like masteries. The karma races and magic subclasses come with restrictions and weaknesses that the mundane subclasses do not. You can easily stomach not having access to desert elf or spells, because there are loads of reasons not to want those at all; but if your enforcer has 60% sneak and hide while that guy's has 80%, that's a discovery that will make some people opt out of playing.

[GetKanked]

I generally don't like the freemium feel of the 0-karma subclasses, as compared to the extended ones. Magic subclasses are fine, there's valid reasons for them to have a lot of power potential. But if a new player learns that their current character is vastly inferior to the exact same type of character made by someone with karma for a better subclass, with no strings attached and no roleplaying obligations or risks, it's a little more likely to make them go "fuck this." If anything, I think mundane subclasses should all be 0 karma. If they were, I'd be all for making them better. As it stands, improving them will simply make 0-karma characters even worse, which is bad for new player retention and former player recovery.

Like it or not, people care about the coded worth of their characters, and if they face the reality that their lack of karma means their characters are distinctly second-rate, that's unhealthy for the game. It's already a little bit bad, and it'll be much worse if mundane karma subclasses come with truly powerful things like masteries. The karma races and magic subclasses come with restrictions and weaknesses that the mundane subclasses do not. You can easily stomach not having access to desert elf or spells, because there are loads of reasons not to want those at all; but if your enforcer has 60% sneak and hide while that guy's has 80%, that's a discovery that will make some people opt out of playing.

This, 100%.  ESGs should be no karma and SGs should be boosted or dumped.

[Jihelu]

I haven't played enough of the regular subguilds to feel I have a large horse in this race, but the phrase
"Make ESG 0 karma, and bump or buff regular subguilds" Is something I'd be able to get behind.