Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You

[X-D]

You know, I was thinking, and this is a funny thought to me. But Staff have said that the class name does not exactly mean anything to the class.

Yet, the changes proposed for miscreant, pilferer, Infiltrator, Actually do bring the classes more in line with the names.

Pilferer would actually be the best at...Pilfering...Infiltrator would actually be the best at Infiltrating and Miscreant would actually become the generalist ne'er-do-well.

[GetKanked]

GetKanked:

Are you joking on that last bit? I mean, I see plenty of light mercantile.

No, there's no point in being one realistically.  Just make it a 3x3 - you're combat, utility, or crafting in sneaky, wilderness, or city.

[adri]

Big +1 for swapping Scout and Stalker scan/listen instead of stealth. That seems more appropriate and beneficial for Scout while being less of a hit to Stalker. The rest of the changes are fantastic, IMO.

[hyzhenhok]

Time will tell. I'd bet money you're wrong on that and that the use of the Miscreant class will drop below either the current pilferer or Infiltrator levels. This'll just be pushing down bubbles in the wallpaper. It doesn't really create a new problem, but it doesn't really solve the old one. You're just moving it around.

I'd take the bet. Pickpocket was never popular, so I think the number of people going over to pilferer just for master steal will be quite small. Significant numbers will switch to infiltrator for the master stealth, but it won't monopolize city stealth. Its lack of mastery the other city utility skills will be a dealbreaker for many concepts that will prefer to stick with miscreant. Anyway I've beaten this horse enough so I'll leave it at that.

[Dresan]

Time will tell. I'd bet money you're wrong on that and that the use of the Miscreant class will drop below either the current pilferer or Infiltrator levels. This'll just be pushing down bubbles in the wallpaper. It doesn't really create a new problem, but it doesn't really solve the old one. You're just moving it around.

I'd take the bet. Pickpocket was never popular, so I think the number of people going over to pilferer just for master steal will be quite small. Significant numbers will switch to infiltrator for the master stealth, but it won't monopolize city stealth. Its lack of mastery the other city utility skills will be a dealbreaker for many concepts that will prefer to stick with miscreant. Anyway I've beaten this horse enough so I'll leave it at that.

I also believe what will happen is both miscreant becomes as unpopular as Pilferer.

Thats said, at the end I think its a moot point to argue.

Staff want strong thieves to go away or be forced to live the hard life of the city elf in hopes of encouraging more people to visit taverns again. 

Probably more so now that you rob one city state blind and go be a celebrated hero in the other.

We'll just have to see how it works out.

[X-D]

GetKanked:

Alright, now it is no secret that I am a fan of the Specialized balance method over the current generalist balance method. (no, I do not like ANY of the current classes, no secret but maybe some have not read past posts on the subject)

Now, the problem is that current staff seems to like the "I do almost everything OR if I do not I am OVER specialized" Balance method. And that is the framework we are currently in...so, really, much as I agree with you, I do fail to see how it applies to current change suggestions.

Narf:Dresan:
I rather doubt the intent is to push miscreant below the two mentioned but more to bring it even. I think it would.

[Night Queen]

Since this is not an urgent change it might be worth it to have a system where legacy characters are not affected first maybe please pleaaaase? It seems like the kind of thing that would pay off in future if other major changes need to be made too

The major issue with stuff like this it can make characters less viable for what they were envisioned as originally, and so not a great feeling for those affected, it's a two tier thing it seems like:
- If stealing is nerfed, it affects the characters with a focus on stealing
- If stealth is nerfed it affects more the characters that are NOT focused on stealing, for listening etc - and yet even before this I've felt for a while that magic roles just kind of trump the normal ones in usefulness, since they can do the same things without the game-ending consequences that are often present for getting caught (I would maybe look more really to nerfing those and maybe giving some kind of way to detect and chase if doesn't exist already)
- This becomes a split between two different characters, but either change is forcing to pick 1, but for existing characters this is too late so it just gimps them in a way that seems unfair to either focus

Otherwise this would change the abilities of a character but make them less likely to be able to do the IC job/role which is already there for existing characters

As people said earlier these roles are definitely a lot more dangerous than people that haven't tried them assume (most characters tend to not last long, for sure!) and the risk/reward in most cases is just not worth it (and I think we want to be encouraging MORE city drama not less, at the moment it's just SO DANGEROUS that most people just seem to pick the Law/easy mode side and there's a real struggle to find players brave enough and willing to face the extreme differential in power!):
- the proliferation of city magic
- proliferation of areas that have guards that will kill if actually get inside, few things worth kamikazing over
- rooms that are NOHIDE (or whatever the flag is called here) but without any way to indicate that OOC or in the room descriptions which are often ambiguous

[mansa]

Are we trying to promote more players in choosing select classes?

I made this up from the rough data that was provided over the years:


Pilferer and Soldier are both classes that have low selection.  I believe these changes would make those classes more popular choices, and have Miscreant be chosen a bit less.


I think the proposed changes to Stalker and Scout wouldn't have much of a difference between players selecting those classes - but I think it would have a change in the habits of these character types.

As the world is dangerous outside the city gates, I think Raider will still be a very popular choice of players, and reducing the requirements for branching disarm might make the players feel better about their class choice -> in terms of having a goal (branching all skills) and progressing to that goal

[Bebop]

Are we trying to promote more players in choosing select classes?

I made this up from the rough data that was provided over the years:


Pilferer and Soldier are both classes that have low selection.  I believe these changes would make those classes more popular choices, and have Miscreant be chosen a bit less.


I think the proposed changes to Stalker and Scout wouldn't have much of a difference between players selecting those classes - but I think it would have a change in the habits of these character types.

As the world is dangerous outside the city gates, I think Raider will still be a very popular choice of players, and reducing the requirements for branching disarm might make the players feel better about their class choice -> in terms of having a goal (branching all skills) and progressing to that goal

I think it'd be worth creating another thread talking about why these classes are typically not picked.  Like I said, fence doesn't get master sneak/hide then his this janky branching of knife weapons that only goes to journeyman without any other real combat skills.  It's weird.  There's a few things with the classes that I feel need to be revamped.

I like that we have the new classes but I think there needs to be some tweaks/redos.

I still really like my healer idea:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55158.msg1038874.html#msg1038874

[Brokkr]

I thought about moving perception to infiltrator rather than stealth, but ultimately if stealth moves to infiltrator, that means in order to get steal you are going to have to use a subclass.  Meanwhile (whether steal moves or not), miscreants and pilferers would have great/decent steal, but only have decent stealth, hiding roughly as well as pickpockets used to.

On the other hand, yes, perception or stealth from stalker to scout could make sense, and there isn't necessarily a need driven by other components of the stalker guild for it to be stealth.

[Night Queen]

It just feels really awful to do this to existing characters since people chose the classes for different reasons on different characters, and so it's fine for some, but for others means less likely to get involved in interesting stuff in the future (and it seems like there's already a serious situation where there's much less players around that are wiling and able to put up with the way the game is already quite weighted against the criminal clans)

If there's any way at all for it to not include old characters since none of it seems urgent to do, it feels like "big game changes" should never affect current characters really (and maybe in future there'd be more stuff this applies to, so would make sense to change the system)

[triste]

Big +1 to night queen's point, existing characters should not be changed.

If there isn't a way to roll this out while preserving existing character skills, let's consider a full revamp of guilds or even a skill point buy system so that everyone can truly get what they want.

[Brokkr]

There is no versioning for skills trees, so no, it can't.

[Narf]

There is no versioning for skills trees, so no, it can't.

There's a way to do it, it'd create some temporary clutter though.

Create clones of the original classes, named something  different but with all the same skills (except for the changes). Keep the existing classes as legacy classes, and eliminate people's ability to choose them. Delete Scout, Miscreant, Pilferer, Infiltrator, and Stalker from the help file and replace them with the clone names.

It'd be the exact same process as the shift from legacy classes.

[Nao]

I think this would make infiltrator ridiculously good at PK.

[Dresan]

On the other hand, yes, perception or stealth from stalker to scout could make sense, and there isn't necessarily a need driven by other components of the stalker guild for it to be stealth.

Not sure if this has changed but I believe Stalkers have the best chance of getting certain poisons with max skinning skill. They are also the best at applying it with max poison skill. And have the best chance at adminstering it with max stealth skills.

This seems slightly imbalanced to me. I would argue that moving stealth to scout would help alleviate that slightly. Ultimately, moving just perception skills doesn't really make that big of a difference.

Also another reason why poison skill should probably be switched between stalker/scout and miscreant/infiltrator. The people who have the best chance of aquiring (buy/skin/steal) poison and good at making/curing it(brew), shouldn't be the best at using it on others gameplay wise.

[Narf]

There is no versioning for skills trees, so no, it can't.

Would it be possible to switch the class of an existing character to one of the classes they're swapping maximums with?

[Halcyon]

Are we trying to promote more players in choosing select classes?

<snippage>

As the world is dangerous outside the city gates, I think Raider will still be a very popular choice of players, and reducing the requirements for branching disarm might make the players feel better about their class choice -> in terms of having a goal (branching all skills) and progressing to that goal

I have to wonder how many players would choose raider if it had even jman skin, like the oldschool warrior.  Playing a ranger analog without skinning seems off to me.  Having to use a subguild for either skinning or food forage seems like an overly restrictive setup to me.

[Dresan]

I have to wonder how many players would choose raider if it had even jman skin, like the oldschool warrior.  Playing a ranger analog without skinning seems off to me.  Having to use a subguild for either skinning or food forage seems like an overly restrictive setup to me.

Raider is pretty popular already. On top of that I think staff already mentioned it has a higher hidden skin base skill percentage so it should be able to feed itself.

Raider is less of a ranger and more of a warrior that also can ride, climb, charge and go through storms. 

[Maso]

Would it be possible to switch the class of an existing character to one of the classes they're swapping maximums with?

Maybe existing Miscreants could request for skillbumps to be restored to avoid concepts being ruined?

I think it reflects a pretty big nerf to highly popular class though, and I'm in the camp of smaller, iterative adjustments to measure impact. I don't really understand why one big adjustment to character sheets would be better.

[Inks]

I have to wonder how many players would choose raider if it had even jman skin, like the oldschool warrior.  Playing a ranger analog without skinning seems off to me.  Having to use a subguild for either skinning or food forage seems like an overly restrictive setup to me.

Raider is pretty popular already. On top of that I think staff already mentioned it has a higher hidden skin base skill percentage so it should be able to feed itself.

Raider is less of a ranger and more of a warrior that also can ride, climb, charge and go through storms.

Raider is already great, yes. They aren't great at raiding due to a lack of hunt, but they do not need skin at all.

[Dresan]

A bit of a derail but I've always been confused on why so many classes/subclasses get low level scan. 

Leaving aside how crappy max scan with elven wisdom is it would be nice to see a bit more variety in the perception skills.

Quite frankly if the atocious failure rate of low level sneak/hide were to be removed, it would be much easier to balance scan/listen/widsom against hide/sneak/agility depending on classes and combos allowing counter-play while at the same time even keeping sub-class thief's hide/sneak rather useful against people that have not invested in stat/class/sub-class to counter it. 

In addition to the above, this pains me to say because I love stealth and I abuse this feature a lot but scan, hide and sneak need to be seperated into wilderness and city skills that have no interactions with each other.  For example, I believe its a problem that stalker(or in the future scout) can have perfect sneak/hide just by taking house servant. It just allows many characters to have higher levels of duo stealth which makes balancing out scan/listen even more complicated.

But again before anything the failure rate of stealth skills need to be addressed, its one thing for you to be spotted or heard because the other person invested in chararacter with higher wisdom/skill to counter you but its totally crap for it to fail completely because of RNG.

[Brokkr]

I think you are assuming that scan was put on those Classes for PvP purposes.

[Dresan]

I think you are assuming that scan was put on those Classes for PvP purposes.

Even taking into account NPCs it doesn't change my opinion. That said, I am sure scan is probably more useful in wilderness settings then it was to my city elf.

However, this would be all the more reason to seperate the skills between wilderness and city like listen has been, rather than just having flags or different values.

Again sorry for the derail.

[Greve]

First off, you should never worry about hurting existing PCs with a balance change. Almost none of the current PCs will still be here in six months, but balance changes (ideally) improve the game forever. If anyone's against a change because it nerfs their current PC, fuck 'em. It's like being against student loan forgiveness because you already paid yours off.

Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels

While I've always felt that Miscreant needs a nerf, I don't think it's the stealth levels that should be targeted. Especially if the next change down the list is also being considered. I think Infiltrator could be given master stealth without taking anything away from Miscreant. The issue with Miscreant isn't that it's too good at stealth (I mean, it's literally the main stealth class, right?) but rather the wealth of other stuff it gets. Why does it need master hunt, forage, poisoning, etc.? I would keep this class as the top dog of stealth and thieving, but cut down on its frankly ridiculous lineup of mostly-master utility skills. These can then be Robin Hooded out to needier classes. Like why on Earth doesn't Scout have master hunt?

I do think some changes are in order for stealth in general, but those are not addressed by shuffling the skillcaps around.

Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level

If you take away Miscreant's stealth and steal, the class is dead. It would still be playable if you nerfed only its steal, but the Pilferer would - even if it got top tier steal - still be a meh class that lacks mastery in all the other skills that go hand in hand with steal. It's not just about the steal skill itself, it's the stealth, it's peek, it's sleight of hand, and arguably even master watch so you can better notice if someone looks at you or starts to watch you. It would be exactly like Infiltrator and Scout are right now: they master their one trademark skill (backstab and archery respectively) but are still unattractive because everything else they have is mediocre.

I think this change would be a net loss as it makes Miscreants crappy without actually making Pilferer an equivalent alternative. The class that focuses on theft needs to have the highest possible sneak/hide and peek as well or you kill the entire master pickpocket playstyle. I'm tempted to say that there shouldn't have been a Pilferer class in the first place, since criminal skills in particular are so dependent on very high skill levels that the jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none class design doesn't work for this archetype. That works a little better for combat-oriented classes where half of the skills are practically impossible to master anyway.

On that note, there's kind of a recurring theme here, isn't there? The classes that are J.O.A.T.-M.O.N. tend to be unpopular. It turns out that having a bunch of skills that cap at advanced just isn't very appealing. With the old guild system, the guilds mastered most of their skills, but there was a much bigger difference in the actual skillsets. Now we have a system with much more overlap in skillsets, where some classes master their important skills and other classes get almost no masteries but advanced in a wider range of skills, and the latter has sort of failed. I'd say that the solution is not to take mastery away from some classes and give it to others, but to simply increase many of the skills of underplayed classes from advanced to master. You can still leave a 5-10% gap between them to keep some classes truly the best at something.

Switch Stalker Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Scout Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels

Pretty much the same goes here as for the above. Doubly so for the Stalker, in fact, because its other master skills are less role-defining compared to the Miscreant. Top stealth is basically the reason to play a Stalker in the first place. Without it, why would you ever choose it over Scout? I would give Scouts and Infiltrators low master stealth without taking it away from other classes. The problem with stealth skills has always been the classes that get it to the highest possible level, not the ones that got it to the ranger/pickpocket level of "just exactly master but not as high as assassin/burglar."

Add Scan to Soldier with same maximum skill level as Stalker/Miscreant/Laborer

Absolutely 100% in favor. Soldier should always have had master scan. As it stands, there's almost no reason to play the class over Fighter, and adding master scan would instantaneously make it the go-to choice for law enforcement. Due to the sub-optimal combat skills of the class, and lack of any other gotcha skills (no backstab, steal, poisoning, etc.) there's really no balance concern involved. Giving Soldier scan doesn't turn it into some kind of cheap PKing monster. Do this even if you make none of the other changes you listed. It really sucks that if you want to play a thief-catcher in the current setting, you have to pick a class that otherwise has nothing to do with the militia role. This exact change was suggested once and I cringed at the number of people going "well, why don't you just pick LABORER for your soldier PC?"

Increase Soldier Subdue to same maximum skill level as Jihaen Templar

I'm indifferent. Don't really know how high Jihaen Templars get their subdue, and the skill is rarely used outside of arresting people who probably have nosave arrest on anyway. I'd venture to say that the change is probably fine, but not terribly impactful. Never heard of anyone who managed to raise subdue above low advanced anyway.

What I would like to see is a small bump to Soldier's parry and shield use, to reflect the fact that it is thematically more combat-oriented than Infiltrator and Scout. Buff it up to the threshold of master, still lower than the heavy-combat classes but enough to make it feel like the class lives up to its name a little better. This should be the first choice for players who want to play an actual soldier, but its defenses are just not quite up to par, being apparently equal to scouts and infiltrators. It's very difficult to justify taking anything other than a heavy-combat class in a basically combat-oriented role, especially with the Soldier's lean selection of utility skills. It doesn't even get ride above the innate level that all characters get.

Increase starting Kick skill slightly for Fighter/Raider/Enforcer (its actually lower than the formulaic design, somehow)

This won't really make a difference unless you raised them incredibly high, like starting at journeyman or something. These are skills that are essentially useless at lower levels, so it doesn't matter if they start at 5% or 15%. It'll shorten the grind to raise them from 500 hours to 490 hours, with no meaningful impact on anything.

Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers

Definitely in favor. These skills are brutally hard to raise, and they branch into a very important skill for these two classes. I wish there were none of these "you branch a class-defining skill through a grueling grind that takes longer than most people ever play the same PC" issues in the game. If it's deemed balanced that a class gets a certain skill, it should not be gated behind a prohibitive grind. If it's gated behind a prohibitive grind because it's deemed unbalanced, it should not get the skill. Particularly since you can completely circumvent that grind by taking the right subclass, which renders invalid any notions of needing to gate a skill behind anything. The same goes (to an even higher degree) for things that branch from very high weapon skills, which I wish you'd change.

And I would switch the skillcaps for backstab on Enforcer and Infiltrator, and archery on Raider and Scout. The classes that already master all the game's other combat skills, and get a decent selection of utility stuff on top (unlike Fighter), should not also have the highest possible caps in backstab and archery. I want to see Infiltrator and Scout with pickpocket/ranger-level stealth and the kings of backstab/archery, as compensation for their otherwise very underwhelming skillsets. Middling stealth and not-even-top backstab/archery just isn't good enough. If you're not gonna have good enough stealth skills to rely on them, you might as well go Enforcer and Raider for vastly superior combat skills, and then if you really want poisoning or skinning or whatever, you get it from a subclass.