Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You

[Dresan]

It's not as if there's much interaction between stealth and city NPCs unless you're wanted

Hmm. This did slip my mind. Current Infiltrator stealth fails, even with all the stealth gear I could find it would fail noticably.

This is not too much of an issue with infiltrator since a well trained one can at least last couple rounds or two with soldiers.

However, miscreant with infiltrator stealth using blowdarts for example might not be lucky enough to make it a roof top.   

[stoicreader]

Please give adventurer ranger plant break and give search to scout and stalker.

I think the biggest balance issues are from subguilds. The availability of certain skills (poison, lockpicking, backstab) is clearly very low from subs but so are other ones. I should make a spreadsheet

Please make a spreadsheet. I love spreadsheets.

[Inks]

On reading this again, misc and stalker stealth being less than scout and infiltrator is a little silly. I can see myself playing scout and infiltrator forever, with these changes. Maybe just give scout and inf low master sneak and leave misc and stalker where is. Or have stalker etc as the low master and inf/scout as high master. Either way. If you do either of these things I will be satisfied completely. I'm hankering to give soldier a go too.

Due to adding an extra master scan class, I reckon this will all work out.

[Dresan]

After some more thought, It does seem like the problem with miscreant is not its stealth (which is what is making it popular) but its theft. The biggest concern with moving max stealth to infiltrators is that you'll basically get mages/muls which are now better at combat, great backstab/sap, can bash AND you can't see them.

Therefore, I would recommend the following:

• I think it makes more sense to switch poison and perception skills between infiltrator/miscreant.
• Perhaps some of the miscreant's opportunitistic combat utility skills can be further lowered or just removed like blowgun/thow/sap/backstab/crossbow.
• Finally you can switch miscreant and Pilferer steal too in order to tone down some of the theft.

This takes some of the wind out of the sail of miscreants but leaves that tempting max stealth which will keep it popular despite bad combat/combat utility and reduced theft ability. While at the same time give infiltrator a much needed boost but still not make them a tempting pick with characters that cannot be seen at all wandering around the city by authorities (eg. suspected mages).

As much as I would love to play a infiltrator with max stealth or even low master stealth, deep down I don't believe this is not good for the game. Even low master stealth would make infiltrator an extremely tempting class to take especially compared to the current enforcer (or even enforcer after the proposed changes) with its poor stealth and unrealistic grind expectations.

That said, I know this isn't being proposed but sap/backstab should probably be lowered to low journeyman weapon skill for branching. This is still a decent investment in the character and the game hasn't been broken by people chosing subs like bounty hunter, slipknife or cutpurse. I think it'll be fine if a few more people manage to branch these skills without resorting to subs.

[Inks]

Yep. Was super excited, then realised scouts/inf would be 70% of all combat pcs. Switching the perception is fine too.

[GetKanked]

I think you overestimate the draw of the top tier combat classes for the sort of role that wants slashing (master).  The mages and muls especially aren't looking for better skill with swords realistically, they don't need it, they're looking for the grab bag of various tricks and survivability that comes with stalker/miscreant.  Moving the stealth just spreads around the skills a little more smoothly and makes two fairly meh classes into viable choices, while making two top tier classes still amazing all around.

[Dresan]

stuff

Having read a couple of your posts I believe that you are probably misunderstanding a few things.

In this case I think you underestimate the value of great combat skills and good stealth in term of survivability in this game, regardless of subclass or race.

Again, the short of my post is that I would prefer to keep piss poor combat and max stealth tied to one class.

[GetKanked]

I don't misunderstand, I disagree.  The survivability skills are far more important to a mul or a magicker than 'slightly better combat' is.  If you see things differently that's ok, but that has been my experience.  A slightly better slashing/piercing/etc. skill isn't as much of a boon as the myriad benefits of the stalker/miscreant class.  Moving a single one (stealth) to a different class makes for better balance.

[Dresan]

I would also recommend matching the changes with wilderness classes to the city. (ex. switching perception and focus)

But also consider switching  skinning skill between stalker and adventurer.

This is with the assumption stalker has high master and aventurer has low master value of the skinning skill.

[X-D]

Problem is Dresan, your suggestions would change nothing, The number of people that pick infiltrator or scout would not go up, The ones taking miscreant and stalker would not go down, the types of subs taking those classes would not change and the other (stated by Brokkr) Reason for the changes is to move Infiltrator a tiny bit closer to assassin and scout to actually be a scout.

Infiltrator or scout getting master poison and scan? Who cares? Totally useless change and I believe you know that.

Now, myself, I do not really think Brokkr's proposed changes will increase the number of mages that take scout and infiltrator. My experience is, depending on the mage type You want either HIGH utility, which stalker and miscreant still would fill, Or you want Master levels of combat brute-ness, which Infiltrator and scout still would not fill.

But it might change the overall demographic some while bringing things more in line with whatever vision he has for those classes.

[Dresan]

Infiltrator or scout getting master poison and scan? Who cares? Totally useless change and I believe you know that.

Yes. It is a mostly useless change for infiltrator and miscreant. And misceants and stalker would still remain popular even if steal/skin got switched. Thats good.

However, I am not convinced that infiltrators need miscreant level stealth. Besides, scout numbers are pretty healthy if you ask me. No one seems to be concerned that enforcer numbers are in pretty bad too shape too in comparison to raiders or even fighters for that matter.

If anything, I might agree low master stealth is needed and this alone would improve the numbers of players trying out the infiltrator class without ruining miscreants if staff is so inclined to improve its numbers. But Staff already mentioned not wanting to increase stealth in the game and i think the improvement numbers will come at the cost those who would have chosen enforcer (unless branching grind for enforcers sap/backstab is improved).

[Inks]

Yeah, the whole point is to increase popularity of clearly weaker classes. You are kind of missing the point.


Probably playing a miscreant m8. Or Stalker.

While I don't particularly believe these should be nerfed stealth wise,  or we will just have the opposite problem, scouts and especially infiltrator need a boost. Low master stealth would be good enough for me to get into it. I am not too fussy so master scan prob would too. But master scan just creates a real mess of a class and low master stealth gives it viability at...you know...infiltrating.

Or give miscreant and stalker low master and inf/scout high. Works for me. I'm eager to get these changes going.

[Dresan]

Probably playing a miscreant m8. Or Stalker.

lol.   

I admit I am a bit biased mostly because having twink mul miscreant and mages coming to gank your mundane and the newbies around you is a bad enough experience.

Assuming Brokkr really has no intention of increasing stealth in the game, I rather not have miscreant gimped to the point of irrelevancy or infiltrators becoming the go to class for stealth.

Regardless of what is decided at the end I am curious to see the changes too.

[triste]

another plea in vain here to avoid changing living characters if at all possible, or giving some sort of bump to living characters that get altered. I wrote and entire app because I dislike skill overlap so much it physically pains me. If I have overlap as a result of these changes imma fite.

[GetKanked]

Problem is Dresan, your suggestions would change nothing, The number of people that pick infiltrator or scout would not go up, The ones taking miscreant and stalker would not go down, the types of subs taking those classes would not change and the other (stated by Brokkr) Reason for the changes is to move Infiltrator a tiny bit closer to assassin and scout to actually be a scout.

Infiltrator or scout getting master poison and scan? Who cares? Totally useless change and I believe you know that.

Now, myself, I do not really think Brokkr's proposed changes will increase the number of mages that take scout and infiltrator. My experience is, depending on the mage type You want either HIGH utility, which stalker and miscreant still would fill, Or you want Master levels of combat brute-ness, which Infiltrator and scout still would not fill.

But it might change the overall demographic some while bringing things more in line with whatever vision he has for those classes.

Basically this, X-D actually sees the point of this and sees it clearly in an objective way.  Dresan is still misunderstanding the combat power gap between infil/scout and miscreant/stalker - it will not affect how strong muls are against PCs in any meaningful way except in a few fairly specific cases of a highly trained mundane PC vs. a relatively untrained mul/gick.  It just removes the 'is the best at literally every trick in the book' from stalker/miscreant and spreads that around, while still leaving stalker/miscreant pretty damn good at stealth.

People act like high advanced is some sort of death sentence, and for what stalkers and miscreants tend to do, it certainly isn't. Especially if you get a decent agi roll.  It's just you can't roll a dwarf miscreant and ninja your way through the entire city after setting agi as your dump stat the way you basically can now.  It just makes infiltrators and scouts a bit more useful.  Both middle classes still get a bazillion skills and a large group of them at master.

[Narf]

  It just makes infiltrators and scouts a bit more useful.  Both middle classes still get a bazillion skills and a large group of them at master.

Just for the record, infiltrator gets more total skills than miscreant as of right now.  The skills miscreant has that infiltrator doesn't are brew and haggle. That's it. That's the unique flavor of miscreant if you ignore skill levels.

In exchange you give up half your weapon skills, bash, and subdue.

The primary reason people play miscreant over infilitrator is not the number of skills they get (they get fewer) but the levels that those skills are at.

[Dresan]

it will not affect how strong muls are against PCs in any meaningful way except in a few fairly specific cases of a highly trained mundane PC vs. a relatively untrained mul/gick. 

This is pretty meaningful and important actually. Again I think some of your argument don't completely make sense in the context of the point you are trying to make, but thats okay, you keep being you.

I've been thinking about the reason it feels reliable steath is needed but that is for another thread.

[najdorf]

as someone else also mentioned, miscreant has too many skills, rather than reducing caps on most effective skills, drop these to advanced:
poisoning, hunt, search, scan, listen and some more.

nerfing the skills which give miscreant its true power will either
a) reduce players playing it, or
b) will give to a rise of city elves (for those that will survive more as Miscreant), which I think is not preferred by staff.

[GetKanked]

  It just makes infiltrators and scouts a bit more useful.  Both middle classes still get a bazillion skills and a large group of them at master.

Just for the record, infiltrator gets more total skills than miscreant as of right now.  The skills miscreant has that infiltrator doesn't are brew and haggle. That's it. That's the unique flavor of miscreant if you ignore skill levels.

In exchange you give up half your weapon skills, bash, and subdue.

The primary reason people play miscreant over infilitrator is not the number of skills they get (they get fewer) but the levels that those skills are at.

that's fair, it's more the level of the skills - they currently have 17 skills they get at Master.  Dropping 3 of those to advanced isn't that big a deal, when Infiltrator has 9 they get at Master.  There's quite a bit of overlap as you pointed out (and lack of brew is potentially a large shift depending on your role).  In either case, Miscreants get far more skills at Master, and the majority of those are quite useful utility skills, especially at master.  Infiltrators get mostly 'two-handed' and 'dual wield' type of skills at master. Useful, combat focused, but nowhere near the utility.

it will not affect how strong muls are against PCs in any meaningful way except in a few fairly specific cases of a highly trained mundane PC vs. a relatively untrained mul/gick. 

This is pretty meaningful and important actually. Again I think some of your argument don't completely make sense in the context of the point you are trying to make, but thats okay, you keep being you.

I've been thinking about the reason it feels reliable steath is needed but that is for another thread.

And you keep being dismissive without putting up any evidence except 'ur wrong but you keep being you lmao' - which is needlessly rude.  It's a matter of opinion in some ways, but also you don't seem that familiar with how powerful a mul stalker/miscreant actually is, which is fine, not everyone has played those roles. I suggest, though, that you start engaging with what's said instead of passive aggressive attempts at ad hominems.

[Dresan]

It's a matter of opinion in some ways, but also you don't seem that familiar with how powerful a mul stalker/miscreant actually is, which is fine, not everyone has played those roles. I suggest, though, that you start engaging with what's said instead of passive aggressive attempts at ad hominems.

I do believe miscreant stealth is more of a concern then stalker steath . Scout already has decent numbers despite not having max stealth or skin. Not to mention Raider/anything is solid. But I digress

I will break it down though. You believe mul/mage miscreants/stalkers are powerful --- I agree with this. Where we disagree what the most important skill a miscreant brings to the table. Its not steal, perception, poison or even brew. Those are nice and useful but not as overly valuable in the current meta as max stealth.

Ultimately, its a difference of opinion and playstyle but the reasons as to why I believe an experienced player rolling mul or really any kind of mage might not care about steal, perception, poison or brew the class brings and would  prefer better combat skills and perfect stealth(not to mention all the other lower level goodies infiltrator brings) would probably fall under Find out IC territory.

All mages/mul are supposed to be powerful, so the point is very likely moot. And i feel walking into town with hidden mage buffs stealthed will eventually have a reckoning, just like casting fireball in a city.  However, even leaving aside mages/muls its still my just my opinion that mixing better combat of infiltrators and perfect stealth is bad for the game. I understand not all agree. Thats fine. 

[GetKanked]

Hey, yeah I've been cool with us disagreeing the whole time!  I find poisoning, steal, scan, pick, climb, hunt, etc., etc., etc. to be important flavor components (and also very valuable skills).  The slightly higher combat sort of melts into the background for the most part as a mul (and most mages) except at the absolute lowest and absolute highest levels of skills. Which is why I don't feel it's often the reason someone picks a class when they have race - mul or most gick subguilds.

[Nao]

The difference in combat ability is very large.

[GetKanked]

It becomes less relevant when playing a mul or most gicks is my point.  There are thresholds.  Also it's really not THAT large between infil and miscreant or stalker and scout.  The end result can be, sure, but at the start it's not that big a gap.

[Dresan]

A bit of a derail, but the game should give enforcers another small bone and let it start with throw and then branch crossbow/blowgun(lol).

It really feels that when this class was created staff was afraid of no-karma player playing a warrior with semi-decent stealth and maxed out backstab/sap. So they locked the somewhat better stealth and OHK behind slipknife/cutpurse.

Almost surprised bounty hunter/thug still has sap to help it out with how gated every useful skill is, but with the terrible stealth I figure its pretty balanced .

The problem is in comparision to a spiced out Raider/slipknife or Raider/cutpurse (and maybe infiltrator in the future after changes) the class over all really doesn't look very attractive. Not even mentioning after all murder for hire can be a double edge sword.

Maybe an extended subclass could be created called Master Tuluki bounty hunter with advanced ride, wilderness sneak,  wilderness hide, sap, hunt and direction sense. 

[Lotion]

Master Chef should be made a zero karma subguild