Class Skills change suggestions

[mansa]

Hey,

I'd like to suggest some changes to the skill trees of the current classes:


Skinning :
I feel that more classes should have this skill, but the skill should be VERY LOW.  This should help with some minor and basic crafting that has been created that primarily uses the skinning skill.

Outdoors:
Raider - Novice

General:
Fighter - Novice
Soldier - Apprentice (low)
Labourer - Apprentice (high)
Craftsperson - Apprentice (low)
Artisan - Novice

City:
Pilferer - Novice
Fence - Novice

Counterpoints:

1)  Everyone can skin, even without the skill.  Skin a scrab.  Likely to get enough to feed yourself if you do several.
2)  There are some hidden modifiers you aren't taking into account.
3)  The economy is already too easy, the last thing we need is people that can make money by skinning.  See #1 about using it to feed yourself.
4)  Skinning was intentionally not given to certain crafting classes so that they would be reliant on others, unless they took a subclass that gave it to them.

...However, you can't use any of the skinning crafts without the skinning skill, and that's primarily why I want it to be a LOW PROFICIENCY addition.
One of the counter points was to move any 'skinning' craft to the 'forage' craft skill, and I think that would be a good alternative.

That is sort of contrary to #3 and #4.  I already went through, I think about a year ago, and added some crafts to cooking that get something, but not as much, as skinning does from certain things.

Fair.


Search :
I think Search is an underused feature, and in my opinion, having the ability to spot it doesn't give a huge advantage to the players.
Scout - Journeyman (high)
Stalker - Advanced (low)



Value :
I think Value is another skill that doesn't give a lot of perks to the players, in terms of advantage over other players.
Labourer - Advanced (low)



Climb :
I think Climb, at lower levels, should be given to a couple classes, as it can be annoying to try and climb out of pits.
Fence - Journeyman
Dune Trader - Journeyman


Poisoning :
I think it's a mistake to not have Pilferer have Poisoning, if Fence has Poisoning
Pilferer - Advanced



Finally, I'd like to give an additional City Elf Racial - Sleight of Hand which caps @ Advanced

[GetKanked]

These are all wonderful changes and add to the world without imbalancing anything.

[triste]

Onboard with more skinning.

I'll be ready to update https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/ if any changes go through!

[Knight of Knives]

Agree w/mansa.

The outside guilds not getting search in some capacity is kinda goofy.

[mansa]

Agree w/mansa.

The outside guilds not getting search in some capacity is kinda goofy.

Now..

I could see the game split it between an outside search and an inside search.

Burglars should be able to spot the hidden bookshelf and Rangers should be able to spot the hidden path to an encampment.

But, in coded reality, you really only need to know the keyword ONCE, and you, as a player, will forever know that you need to 'OPEN CRACK' in order to get into the secret hideout.   And once a secret is out into the aether, you can't put it back into the bottle.

I think that's a problem, but it's not a large problem... and locked door secret entrances can solve that.

[LindseyBalboa]

But, in coded reality, you really only need to know the keyword ONCE, and you, as a player, will forever know that you need to 'OPEN CRACK' in order to get into the secret hideout.

This is my issue with the entire crafting system. It skews heavily in favor of player knowledge over character reality.

On topic, though, I really agree there should be some outdoor classes with search - or more sub guilds with it. Less so about city classes with skinning.

[Patuk]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1. All guilds within a tier are created equal

Laborer has as many skills as miscreant and stalker do; raiders get as many skills as enforcers and fighters do. Mansa's buffs would bring a GREAT MANY boosts to some wilderness and city classes, which I don't really oppose, but do think should be compensated for with similar buffs to criminal classes. Direction sense might be a nice one(sewers!), or even just skinning for them(rats!).

2. Classes are fine, subclasses are bad

The class revamp gave us some stuff that's fucking great, and I approve of it all a lot. What has not been revamped is our subclasses, extended or not, all of which were created when the old system still existed. A subclass like outdoorsman or grebber fits extremely well on a legacy warrior, who could make use of nearly all the skills granted by such a choice. Today's raiders, enforcers, and other sorts struggle a lot more with picking something rounding them out well, in my experience, and this could be given some attention.

[mansa]

...
2. Classes are fine, subclasses are bad

The class revamp gave us some stuff that's fucking great, and I approve of it all a lot. What has not been revamped is our subclasses, extended or not, all of which were created when the old system still existed. A subclass like outdoorsman or grebber fits extremely well on a legacy warrior, who could make use of nearly all the skills granted by such a choice. Today's raiders, enforcers, and other sorts struggle a lot more with picking something rounding them out well, in my experience, and this could be given some attention.

I'm going to make a separate thread about subclasses.

[Brokkr]

Counterpoints:

1)  Everyone can skin, even without the skill.  Skin a scrab.  Likely to get enough to feed yourself if you do several.
2)  There are some hidden modifiers you aren't taking into account.
3)  The economy is already too easy, the last thing we need is people that can make money by skinning.  See #1 about using it to feed yourself.
4)  Skinning was intentionally not given to certain crafting classes so that they would be reliant on others, unless they took a subclass that gave it to them.

[Patuk]

Counterpoints:

1)  Everyone can skin, even without the skill.  Skin a scrab.  Likely to get enough to feed yourself if you do several.
2)  There are some hidden modifiers you aren't taking into account.
3)  The economy is already too easy, the last thing we need is people that can make money by skinning.  See #1 about using it to feed yourself.
4)  Skinning was intentionally not given to certain crafting classes so that they would be reliant on others, unless they took a subclass that gave it to them.

Re point 3: the economy is tougher than it's been in a decade. Mostly, the game is played by people who have been playing for that long anyhow, so it's fine. Other than them, the game is pretty damn hard, and I don't know that it needs to be made harder.

Re point 4: I logged in at 11 am(my time) yesterday, and there were two other people around. Two. The game is already quite empty for those who don't live in the pacific, and I'd appreciate some thought for those who share such a predicament.

[mansa]

Counterpoints:

1)  Everyone can skin, even without the skill.  Skin a scrab.  Likely to get enough to feed yourself if you do several.
2)  There are some hidden modifiers you aren't taking into account.
3)  The economy is already too easy, the last thing we need is people that can make money by skinning.  See #1 about using it to feed yourself.
4)  Skinning was intentionally not given to certain crafting classes so that they would be reliant on others, unless they took a subclass that gave it to them.

These are all very good counter-points to the skinning addition to the classes.  However, you can't use any of the skinning crafts without the skinning skill, and that's primarily why I want it to be a LOW PROFICIENCY addition.

One of the counter points was to move any 'skinning' craft to the 'forage' craft skill, and I think that would be a good alternative.

[Brokkr]

That is sort of contrary to #3 and #4.  I already went through, I think about a year ago, and added some crafts to cooking that get something, but not as much, as skinning does from certain things. 

[Pariah]

That is sort of contrary to #3 and #4.  I already went through, I think about a year ago, and added some crafts to cooking that get something, but not as much, as skinning does from certain things.

Ahh so that's why you can get x numbers of bones in skinning but x number lower in cooking.

Always wondered why that was so redundant. But I almost never play a thing that can't skin.

[Bebop]

TBH I think everyone should have skinning.  It's one of those things that anyone could attempt to do. I think it should just be that it can't go above average for most.  I don't know if it works this way already but meat should be easy to skin, good cuts harder and shells and hides hardest to get.  That way someone can at least feed themselves but it's harder to make a profit unless you have a high skinning skill.  Right now skinning is definitely a big guild sniffing giveaway and makes character creation quite frustrating.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Giving everybody that skill would just lead to people sniffing out whether you can get shells and hides. I don't know if it would actually change that much.

Mind you, I'm not arguing against getting the skill. I'm just being realistic about sniffing.

[hyzhenhok]

I've written about this a number of times on the Discord and I figure I might as well put this here.

End the Master Stealth Monopoly
I think the core issue is that stealth feels bad when it is not reliable, and players who want reliable stealth only have two main class options. But those two main classes are really, really good in other respects so there really isn't a good justification for making them the exclusive master stealthers.

I'm not worried about infiltrator/scout balance having light combat skills plus stealth; they will face a trade-off between wearing armor and being able to sneak unencumbered. And these classes are both pretty anemic; master stealth would put them on actual closer to equal footing with the other options.

Thus: Infiltrator, Pilferer, Scout, and Adventurer should all get master sneak and hide.

If you want miscreant and stalker to remain the best stealthers, you can give them a slight edge over the others, but make them all master.

Require a Choice in Urban Stealth: Utility Mastery or Specialized Thief
Everyone knows miscreant's mastery of all of the perception, stealth, theft, and poison skills plus advanced access to the assassination and brew skills is pretty godly. Great class. Unfortunately, that means there's not much of a choice when it comes to urban-based class selection. The end result is everyone not interested in combat or crafting picks the same class, everyone can do the same stuff, and it's all pretty bleh.

My bright idea is to take the master theft stuff away from miscreant and give them to pilferer. Yes, it's a slight deviation from the original combat - utility - crafting design, but IMO it might create a more balanced and varied class experience for urban players.

Thus: Pilferer gains master steal and master pick (and sneak and hide). Miscreant is slightly nerfed to have only advanced steal and advanced pick.

[Delirium]

Looking at the top tier classes, Fighter looks incredibly anemic compared to Raider or Enforcer.

Armor repair? LOL. The most worthless of the craft skills. Give them a real crafting skill that caps at, say, journeyman.
Branching watch? You get watch at the start, there is no branch. Should branch scan instead.

Mid-tier combat classes are a no-man's land. Give scouts and infiltrators journeyman brew. They won't be able to counter the Scary Shit alone but at least they'll be useful in being able to create and identify basic cures when nobody has rolled a stalker/miscreant in their area, or when the stalker/miscreants in their area happen to be part of an enemy clan, or an elf/roundear/witch etc.

A lot of the current skill gating seems to create far more frustration than interaction.

"Yeah sure I can expertly stab a kryl and murder it but I have no idea how to pull apart a pile of bones."

For the love of all that is holy, fix the way some combat skills (kick) raise and adjust how slow and difficult weapon skills are to raise, or change the branches on Raider/Enforcer. They can still take time to branch without being as ridiculous as they are now. It seems like mundane classes really get the shaft when it comes to being frightening, sometimes.

Semi-related: if you choose a magick sub, perhaps you shouldn't be able to choose higher than scout/infiltrator/soldier.

[Hauwke]

I've never been able to raise kick, please fix that yes.

[creeper386]

I actually feel enforcer looks better then fighter on paper but not sure it does since the main things that set it apart branch off weapon skills. Enforcer also has no perception skills? No listen or scan so other then for being purely offensive combat not sure they'd be great at much.


I would like to see not everyone have advanced bandage. Or at least the combat classes. The subclasses that give bandage pretty much are just for brew and bandage making as if you are in a place that you might need to bandage someone, probably you or several other people already have high bandage.

[lostinspace]

I frequently get kicked to advanced, if not master on my combat oriented characters. I don't think I'm doing anything special...

The skill I have never once seen raise is listen_wild. I literally don't even know what it does.

[Narf]

I frequently get kicked to advanced, if not master on my combat oriented characters. I don't think I'm doing anything special...

The skill I have never once seen raise is listen_wild. I literally don't even know what it does.

It's supposed to give things penalties to sneak up on you.

I assume you practice it by listening in at conversations in outdoor taverns.

[Strongheart]

Looking at the top tier classes, Fighter looks incredibly anemic compared to Raider or Enforcer.

Armor repair? LOL. The most worthless of the craft skills. Give them a real crafting skill that caps at, say, journeyman.
Branching watch? You get watch at the start, there is no branch. Should branch scan instead.

Mid-tier combat classes are a no-man's land. Give scouts and infiltrators journeyman brew. They won't be able to counter the Scary Shit alone but at least they'll be useful in being able to create and identify basic cures when nobody has rolled a stalker/miscreant in their area, or when the stalker/miscreants in their area happen to be part of an enemy clan, or an elf/roundear/witch etc.

A lot of the current skill gating seems to create far more frustration than interaction.

"Yeah sure I can expertly stab a kryl and murder it but I have no idea how to pull apart a pile of bones."

For the love of all that is holy, fix the way some combat skills (kick) raise and adjust how slow and difficult weapon skills are to raise, or change the branches on Raider/Enforcer. They can still take time to branch without being as ridiculous as they are now. It seems like mundane classes really get the shaft when it comes to being frightening, sometimes.

Semi-related: if you choose a magick sub, perhaps you shouldn't be able to choose higher than scout/infiltrator/soldier.

+1 to all of this! Still need to read more of the thread but I love these suggestions, seems peeps are getting somewhere.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Armor repair? LOL. The most worthless of the craft skills. Give them a real crafting skill that caps at, say, journeyman.
Branching watch? You get watch at the start, there is no branch. Should branch scan instead.

Wait, see, I want armor to break down more than it currently does, so I say make armor break, and let them keep that repair skill right where it is, with more usage.

I love the watch->scan idea, though.

[Riev]

That is sort of contrary to #3 and #4.  I already went through, I think about a year ago, and added some crafts to cooking that get something, but not as much, as skinning does from certain things.

Suggestion: Give all classes Skinning, at a low level, but hidden. Nobody sees it on their skill list. Its not something that can be increased through use, unless you're a class that is allowed to.

Just let Artisan PCs separate bones from claws. You don't have to give me ultimate-wtf-bbq levels of skinning, to at least allow me to attempt that craft.

[Strongheart]

Armor repair? LOL. The most worthless of the craft skills. Give them a real crafting skill that caps at, say, journeyman.
Branching watch? You get watch at the start, there is no branch. Should branch scan instead.

Wait, see, I want armor to break down more than it currently does, so I say make armor break, and let them keep that repair skill right where it is, with more usage.

I love the watch->scan idea, though.

I'd use armor repair if it were actually effective. I don't mind it at all but using a mega crap ton of materials just to ruin an armor piece further is stupidly annoying AND pointless.