Observations of a returning player.

[Dresan]

I am cool with making parts of the game hard and challenging but not at the expense of promoting RP and interaction.

However, there is an entire wilderness to explore (grey forest, pah, sea of eternal dust,etc) there for those that want that want harsh/isolated desert survival.

There is already an element of risk the moment you decide to go to different regerion. For example, stepping into the rinth and heading to the mantis, even if the way was cleared from NPC threats will always have an element of danger since its a lawless zone. Same with preventing clunky weather code from impeding travel to and from Redstorm or having alternative routes, there will still be beetles,raiders and lawless area in between.

You can still hire byn or get a friend to travel with you for safety from beetles and raiders, but even preventing the attempt travel due to clunky weather code is just bad in my opinion. There are plenty of ways of making the game hard, without also making it frustrating and  boring.

[Khorm]

sure the storm around rsv is obnoxious as fuck and so is direction sense in its entirety.

but why remove it and leave a blank where you previously had theme when you could come up with an interesting solution or alternative.

placing high threat out exclusively on the periphery feels like a solution that could make travel and rp easier, but it's a solution that is removing contrast; making the experience more flat. it would be awesome if we could figure out a way to add depth instead of taking it away.

[Dresan]

To clarify the thing we are talking about here is specifically the ability for players to travel from Allanak to Redstorm in a way that allows more regular interaction between these two areas. Not really looking to make any other area or activity easier or less challenging

I do like the fact that classes can't do everything, or require to work together but in this particular case I think it hurts the game more then it helps. Additionally, I really believe the storm code in the area is clunky and I would like to see it touched up to better represent an area that historically should have regular travel/trade. That said my preferred solution would be alternative routes to the place, for example longer route around the stormy (but more direct) areas which would require more rest(more danger) but happens to less windy thus less need less need of a single skill, or my favorite idea which is an underground route with its own dangers and challenges.

But regardless of the solution, easing some of the travel restrictions between the areas, and promoting more interaction and RP between the characters that live there should be further encouraged especially with a smaller playerbase.   

[Pariah]

I'm going to be paraphrasing quotes because I don't want to jump around copy and pasting, plus am slightly lazy.

The weather system and direction sense don't work well

I personally play almost exclusively some type of "ranger" type character, Stalker etc and I've noticed that after a lot of days played, say 10+ (Yes I'm aware that's nothing, just saying it's a lot for me.) that my direction sense still sucks and the extreme weather still sends me going in wrong directions all the time.

I personally think this stems from a couple things:

1. There are cheap pieces of equipment that boost this, and make it so that weather that might normally send you in the wrong direction and if I'm correct in assuming, teach you a tick of direction sense make it almost never happen, in this instance I think those pieces of equipment are TOO good.

2. When you're in weather that's so bad that even with boosted equipment for direction sense you're turned around, it's normally so bad, and the way that there are timers and limits on learning you end up having to either idle for long periods of time to wait out the storm, or camp and hope when you log back in it's not a blinding sandstorm you can't walk or ride out of.

So by Armageddon being a learn via failure mud, and each skill being the potential to fall on the insanely hard to raise level (think weapon skills) to super easy (Think certain crafting skills) it's hard to tell without being able to see the numbers if it could use some tweaking, but I feel that it definitely could.

Or possibly look at direction sense for Ranger types (stalker/scout) to possibly start off super high or maxed like contact to further enforce that you're a guy who lives in this world before your character pops outta Chargen and you're not some newb who gets turned around easily.  If I'm correct, that's why Contact was maxed, because in a world where psionics exists, everyone would be practicing contacting folks for their whole life, why would they need to train it?  I think it's fair to assume navigating harsh weather would be in the same bucket.  But as stated, this isn't a democracy so just putting that thought into the world and hoping maybe someone with the juice agrees.

The rinth is too dangerous and doesn't get enough use for what it is, a seedy lowlife, lawless area where back alley dealings would be done by both "Proper" southerners and Rinthers.

I don't think I've stepped foot in the Rinth in years, literally RL years, but I seem to remember that when I tried last time, I had some NPCs knock me unconscious and steal all my shit, and another time backstab me to near death and finish me.  I could be wrong, but I think these were NPCs, not players so I didn't really have anything to do but rely on code to flee which didn't really work and boom dead/pennyless.

Now, I am not saying make the Rinth easy, but maybe as someone stated, put a rinth gathering point in a more accessible, less gauntlet of death area so that folks who want to do and hire illicit acts don't have to risk life and limb to get there.

This may have changed since last time I was there, and if so awesome, but I know those were my frustrations and why I've never tried to join the guild or play an "official" criminal character.  Because between not knowing how to efficiently and realistically train criminal shit without ending up in a Templar Cell, dead or get called a twink was always my challenge there.

Types of players are different, some like combat, some like crafting, some like emoting and RP.  How do we make a system that's open and inclusive to all?

I can't see logs, thinks or any of that personal shit that staff sees, so I can't really judge others too harshly in the area of if they are playing the game to theme or correctly.

However, I do know what I like doing, and I'm a mixture of combat against critters (due to my playing always a ranger character).  Magick (when I spec app something) and crafter type player.

I have sometimes got stuck for full day cycles or more in interesting bar/apartment/clanhall RP too, so I'm not against it.  But I tend to be more of a "Hey man let's interact so we can help one another, or do something together." type of RPer more than a "Oh you draw for House Fale, tell me about your mother and your child." type RPer.  There has to be some end game for me to interact with you on a regular scale.  Whether that's necessity (Byn Training, you're my spice dealer, you're my animal part buyer or you're my guy who I go hunting with).

I know I struggle just giving a shit about aide fancy silks Tressy Tress who works for House Oash but has no reason to really talk to or interact with Amos the Ranger.  Now I'm not saying that they aren't important to the game and don't fill a role, but like real life, I might know 100s of people, but only a select few are actually my friends or someone I care if they were to get hit by a car tomorrow (Harsh example but hopefully you get what I'm saying.)

I would be totally fine with some type of idle tick or passive skill gain idea, but what I have always felt is missed is RP'd development on a character level.  Now I'm not talking about I start as a Runner and become Sergeant of the shitcloaks type of advancement, I would deem that more skill/relationship advancement.

What I mean is how things are set via your class/subclass to the point that you literally will never learn anything outside X number of skills/crafts no matter if you live for one month RL or 6 Years RL.  I've always felt that there should be a way to unlock certain skills through RP and striving for something in game.  I don't think it should be easy, but it should be possible to say be Amos the Ranger, who finds out his buddy Tektolnes the salter is really moonlighting as a defiler, but because I've known Tektolnes for so long and built a relationship, I'm not turning in my boy.

Now I feel, that in that scenario, if my boy wants to teach me to suck some life outta a tree and cast a fireball of doom, it should be something I can eventually become.  But in the current system that can't happen, at least it's been my experience.

However, it appears that staff is open to oddball shit via Special Application and giving folks ability to do things sorta custom.  I personally years ago played a Burglar for like a day with slight Psionicist abilities, and of course since I didn't know what I was doing, he died like instantly due to murder the mindworm, but I could do it and it was fun.

Now again, I'm not speaking from a position of any ACTUAL knowledge that these things don't happen, and maybe it's due to my horrible past with staff that I've never seen it, but I think that it would be cool if characters could grow beyond the mold skill/stat wise.

I can't play because I can't sink the time into it anymore. / I have ideas of characters all the time but can't bring myself to play due to not wanting to commit the time.

Preach to the choir man! I get it, I work about 45 hours a week on a normal week, have a kid, have four dogs and a steam library of over 1000 games, trust me I got a lot of shit that can take up my time.

This is why I think that the ability to coordinate with folks on an OOC ability beyond Clan Boards would be beneficial.  Say I have four hours to play, I don't want to spend two of it trying to find Fancy Pants Lord Fale.  I want to be actually doing things.  I mentioned about how if you read some off the OOC boards around the world right now, you'll see awesome idea, awesome plan, awesome grouping up opportunity and etc ALL OVER THE DAMN place, but they are now either dead or gone.

I feel that if I could advertise things and get IG interest to look up my homeboy in game via OOC means that it would provide folks with a reason to build Crafter Bob to help Hunter Amos or build Hunter Amos II so that he could team up with the original.

Right now to actually team up with people outside of clans I feel like you sorta gotta deal with them like little kids do.  "Hey my name is Billy, see my beetle?  His name is Diza.  You look cool and your inix is pretty sweet, would you like to come out and play with me and Diza?"

Then assuming they are free to go play, I gotta either coordinate with them via OOC Hey I play normally from 8pm-1am EST, what about you?  Or I have to try and vaguely express that like, "Hey me and Diza normally go riding later in the week, what about you?"  Where it would benefit me to be able to mudmail or something the player of and be like, "Hey I got a few hours to play today, interested in logging and going hunting?".

So I feel like some type of staff viewable messaging would be a benefit to actually getting folks on and logged in DOING SOMETHING.  I recently was in the Byn as a player and there is even a roleplay guide in there that says something along the lines of, "Don't log in, see nobody is at training and then log off." And yes while I get why, and I do support the sentiment of being someone that others can look for versus the give up and try later that perpetuates nobody in the game actively.  I also don't wanna be the dude sitting on a bench waiting to see if you log in to smack me with bone sticks.

There are way too many clans open to be logged on idling in the hope that the 2-3 people you're looking for will decided to join the 30 that are logged in and spread throughout the world.

Summary:

I'm all for people getting what they like out the game, if you wanna chop mutha fuckas up with bone swords, do it.  If you wanna craft jewelry for four hours a day, you do you boo.  If you wanna go down that hole in the ground and die to some big bug/monster that you didn't know was there, I'm definitely here for that and cheering you on as well.

But I feel we need more ways to interact, more avenues to do things and more plots and plans to run to fruition or defeat and to do that, I think we need a way to coordinate that's outside of clan boards.  But I totally get that this isn't an easy thing to do and will take trust involved for people not twink it up.

Here's to hoping?

[triste]

My two (2) cents on a long thoughtful* post.

Cent 1

I've always felt that there should be a way to unlock certain skills through RP and striving for something in game.

Ye old skill point buy argument. We'd all love it! I only opposed it after looking at an [allegedly leaked] version of the Arma codebase [for a second before pretending I never downloaded it] and saw guilds were largely based on static files. It's a PITA to move from something like static class/guild definitions to a skill point buy. But possible! People have asked for it for years. I opposed it, "knowing" what I "know." But seeing as staff themselves just proposed a skill point allocation system... Let's fuckin' do it.. And let's go all the way.

Cent 2

This is why I think that the ability to coordinate with folks on an OOC ability beyond Clan Boards would be beneficial

Oh so you mean a way to "Way" people psionically when they are logged out? Something I've posted about for more than a year, after noticing metagamers were reaping an unfair advantage over honest players? It's fine, I know no one can publicly back up my ideas because I am a freak like Adina Howard.

The utility of such a feature is obvious, but I also agree with another poster that "mudmail" is cringeworthy. I just hope Staff invest time in thinking about the need that needs to be fulfilled here (AKA, people do NOT want to metagame and cheat but want to be able to coordinate RP asynchronously), and come up with a good solution, if they do not like mine.

*_{^{I know Pariah looks like a shill account of mine because this b!t-h was also permabanned from discord like me and we share a lot of opinions, but I don't know who this fool is and Staff can validate that, I guarantee we have share no IP addresses, only logical opinions.}}

[Pariah]

My first account was banned years ago for something I probably deserved but can't remember due to it being years ago.

Me and Triste are definitely not the same person.

If I shared my original account name, I think you find that we went at it back and forth and did not like each other at all.

I had a habit of flaming and being a general douche canoe and that is what caused my current issues with senior staff.

Hopefully through consistent non-twinky play and posting on the board that's not douche'y it will change.

[Jihelu]

Note: Barring people accidentally dragging, or baiting, npcs to different areas there are ways to get to the 'hub' areas of the Rinth without coming across muggers. I can think of a few with various ways of doing so (Outright running, different paths to take, climbing, sneaking/hiding, could always fight your way through)
I suggest excel mapping if you /really/ don't like memorizing geography cause its kinda a 'labyrinth' in there *laugh track*

Even then there are easy as hell ways around them. I don't think the muggers should be changed and I think making it safer to get into any part of the 'Rinth, as an outsider, devalues the 'Rinth as a slum and criminal underground where outsiders shouldn't be having fun in.

That being said despite playing in the 'Rinth I'm never really 100% on what the 'Rinth should be, but somewhere in my heart it is 'A place to hide after fucking up that steal check'. Silks begone.

Despite this little spiel I do think it would be nicer to have some way of coordinating play OOC  more. Does this mean a Rinthi specific method? Probably not, rumor board does most of the work and once you know people you can kinda get in the know, but if OOC methods are added or less poo poo'd on it would extend to the 'Rinth as a way to help it without rolling out the red carpet for people to walk to the mantis with their fancy clothes on so they can frolic with elves.

I guess I should comment on the specific quote/the kinda quote used

"The rinth is too dangerous and doesn't get enough use for what it is, a seedy lowlife, lawless area where back alley dealings would be done by both "Proper" southerners and Rinthers."

I don't think the 'Rinth is too dangerous, the amount of npcs that will attempt to mug you are rather low and it's based on being worth mugging. So a disguise fixes 100% of this.
I don't think 'Proper' Southeners would want to use the 'Rinth as a place to do deals. It's absolutely filthy in there and littered with corpses. If they did do business there I think the disguise part should be required.
When I was playing a Noble's aid I actively did deals with the Guild. They'd go southside, we'd meet in a certain spot, then do a hand off. I would never meet them near the Rinth and it would be silly to assume I would. Maybe a non-aide might be asked, or go up there, but that's to be expected and they should be ready to have to deal with that. If they can't deal with some alley muggers, they shouldn't be able to deal with the big boys. And if they are dealing with small fries the small ones can come to you.

I did deal with the 'Rinth on a character who had valuable things on him once, hasn't been a year so no specifics,  but I circumvented the need of a disguise with Hiding and sneaking. This character HAD a disguise back at the apartment, but I didn't need to use it because I was a chad that could hide in the alleys better than they could.

[Maso]

Breaking my heart. The 'rinth is perfect. It has... everything we need it to have, and if you don't know how to utilise that, then you haven't played there enough or you're just not ready for the heat.

The idea of a safe zone to meet southies is just.. so.. unthematic. Shady northside/southside deals should require risk. Otherwise, they're not shady. They're just boring.

*isn't sure what the rest of the thread is about but can't abide suggestions to soften up the rinth*

[Dresan]

I think the 'paraphrasing' turned this thread into a broken telephone.

The idea was about making one location at the edge of the rinth  a little safer for people without  high combat/sneak/hide skills to get to in order to promote some more interesting interaction between these southside/northside players.

Considering some people are avoiding going to the Gaj for fear of being killed and no one mentioned changing any other part of the rinth, I think the danger level will remain quite fine.

The ideas mentioned are really about allowing players to be proactive when it comes to finding RP with different sort of people without having too many skill/class requirements. 

[chrisdcoulombe]

Come for the murder, stay cause you are murdered.

[Narf]

I think the 'paraphrasing' turned this thread into a broken telephone.

The idea was about making one location at the edge of the rinth  a little safer for people without  high combat/sneak/hide skills to get to in order to promote some more interesting interaction between these southside/northside players.

Considering some people are avoiding going to the Gaj for fear of being killed and no one mentioned changing any other part of the rinth, I think the danger level will remain quite fine.

The ideas mentioned are really about allowing players to be proactive when it comes to finding RP with different sort of people without having too many skill/class requirements.

This seems a strange suggestion to me. I've found that for players that play along with the culture of the alleys, it's one of the safest areas in the game. If I tally up character deaths northside versus southside for myself, it's not even comparable. And all of my deaths northside, without exception, were because my character was starting shit they couldn't finish.

As far as I can tell there is no danger whatsoever from NPCs for walking to a rinthi gathering spot if you follow the culture of the alleys during travel. Am I wrong here? Did I miss something?

[Riev]

I have long considered the idea of the Screaming Mantis in the 'Rinth to be the 'seedy alley bar' that people go to for first-contact. Geographically, the T'zai Byn could set and control access to an alley that leads directly to it. For a price, you can use their "safe" way to get to the bar.

Especially considering "back in the day" all the 'rinthi guards WERE Byn Mercs.

[slipshod]

Bring back the Dirk

[Pariah]

You guys are making me want to roll a criminal.  But I think he would survive up until the first time I typed steal dude and mantis head.  So I probably won't.

[Barsook]

You guys are making me want to roll a criminal.  But I think he would survive up until the first time I typed steal dude and mantis head.  So I probably won't.

(not kidding)

[mansa]

Bring back the Dirk

The Dirk is back.

See -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56934.0.html

[slipshod]

similarities in location aside, it's not the same

[LindseyBalboa]

... if you can't think of an in-game, player-driven, established area near the rinth where you could probably go to meet criminal-types in a seedy environment in relative safety as opposed to wandering the rinth itself, then I don't believe you're actively playing in Allanak.

If you want to go inside the rinth to make deals, then you'd need to make friends beforehand, or risk it. That's kinda the whole point.

[Maso]

... if you can't think of an in-game, player-driven, established area near the rinth where you could probably go to meet criminal-types in a seedy environment in relative safety as opposed to wandering the rinth itself, then I don't believe you're actively playing in Allanak.

If you want to go inside the rinth to make deals, then you'd need to make friends beforehand, or risk it. That's kinda the whole point.

Riiigggggght? 

[number13]

Remove the muggers, except in the deepest parts of the rinth.

The danger of the rinth should come from Rinthi PCs, not wtfpwn NPCs.  Savvy players just walk right past the muggers anyway. Nowadays they really only serve as an excuse to get some combat training for armored dwarves and other bored Byn/ex-Byn.

[Veselka]

Nah.

[Veselka]

To be more proactive:

Make the NPC Muggers just as dangerous, and obviously at the territory of the 'rinth. Just as with soldier patrols in Allanak, have roving bands of NPC Marauders that are visible from a distance patrol the 'rinth. Those capable of enough to pass detection, can search the Old Merchant Estates that have Booty and Treasures galore (Forage Artifact). They might uncover...Bags of obsidian coins. Old treasures. Artifacts. But it takes some danger to get there.

Fuck the idea of having the 'rinth be a cakewalk. It should be difficult. There should also be some risk vs reward behind delving deep into its past and history.

[LindseyBalboa]

Add more muggers, if anything.

But don't add MORE wealth to the rinth. It's already covered in a hundred thousand sid worth of 3 sid cloaks and 5 sid obsidian daggers at any given time.

As much as I love the idea of dangerous places having potentially valuable rewards for exploration, the rinth isn't a treasure hunt in a cave. People shouldn't be coming in there at all, that's the whole point. Why would you want to?

The only thing that unites an Eastside elf and a Westside human is, after all, complete lack of trust in southies/outsiders.

[Dresan]

The rinth isn't the wild ruthless desert. It lawless yes, but people still live there, they have shops, families and jobs. They just happen to be poor. They also have protection from the gangs and organizations there.

Not to derail but I would love to see more stuff added to the Rinth to make it more of a place people live rather than just hang out or come to have dangerous adventures. One thing that is missing is gang run and protected apartments. If you fuck up now, the only place it feels like you can run to in order to start a new life is Redstorm(hope your character has direction sense skill) or Morins. West and Eastside should be their own mini towns, and to be fair it has been getting there with new unique shops and such but still needs a bit more love.

[number13]

There are protected and semi-protected spaces in the rinth for PCs already. In fact, even the semi-protected spaces are "safer" than any southside apartment you can rent.