Observations of a returning player.

[triste]

Agreed on the time investment, which is why offline way messages is the cure-all tonic I have for you!

Seriously, it would help move plots with less time invested, help off peakers, help busy people, fix this problem, fix that problem, fix yo momma's problems...

^{_{(It's no coincidence that I have an easier time holding on to hoes cuties IRL than IG, arranging booty calls is much easier asynchronously)}}

[th3kaiser]

Biggest barrier for most players is time and cost/reward of time invested. Time invested is not worth the return - at least not in my experience in the past couple years.

Right there with ya. I want to play and love the game like I used to when I was a kid but the time sink is real.
Much like people seem to keep suggesting when someone complains, I've just stopped playing. I do miss some of y'all though.

[Dresan]

Make your own fun and people will find you.

This is true. Unfortunately the majority of fun people will try to find you with is to murder you and/or all the people you are enjoying playing with.  Last time I played there were too many bored muls, defilers and other boosted sponsored roles with nothing better to do then find reasons to kill each other. 

I am glad to see something more happening in the world now at least. Hopefully it will keep those overpowered roles busy and not engage in too many petty acts.

Putting effort in to making a interesting character is exhausting, and training a character not to get rolled over by a the first strong dwarf they see takes even more time and effort, especially if you want to role-play at the same time.

I think the game would benefit with a way to train skills in an OOC way at this point. It'll facilitate RP and risk (like sitting in taverns apparently) while lessen the feeling of starting again after losing a strong PC.   

[Khorm]

Make your own fun and people will find you.

I think the game would benefit with a way to train skills in an OOC way at this point. It'll facilitate RP and risk (like sitting in taverns apparently) while lessen the feeling of starting again after losing a strong PC.

i'm starting to warm up to this idea. i think if it were implemented well it could be great at doing the things you said.

might even make it based on clans to encourage people to play in these groups. byn aod garrison have martial training complexes. maybe gmh have warehouses for material goods and sparring yards for baby gains comparatively.

mostly i'm into giving people the option to feel like they can play the rp grind (an inordinate amount of time in contact via way) while still progressing their character in other areas. i think it would encourage people to spend more time with rp instead of thinking about shit like timers that can turn the game into a chore.

[Fenneko]

I personally feel like the grind got a lot better with the new changes to classes and skillcaps. I can truly say that with my last few roles getting a massive number of (master) and whatnot on the skill list wasnt really a chore at all, it just happened organically over the last few years of my PCs career. A good wisdom score helps!

[Fernandezj]

There was a discussion about this on Discord, Shal or Hal or someone had good ideas on the concept.
Encourages more casual play... like you can be in the Byn for 2 IC years but if you only have limited play or no online-mates, you walk out a novice...
Would be encouraging, especially off-peak, if Byn or Militia had some passive combat gains while offline up to a certain point or with some other balances (insert codey magick).

[Pariah]

There was a discussion about this on Discord, Shaloonsh has good ideas on the concept.
Encourages more casual play... like you can be in the Byn for 2 IC years but if you only have limited play or no online-mates, you walk out a novice...
Would be encouraging, especially off-peak, if Byn or Militia had some passive combat gains while offline up to a certain point or with some other balances (insert codey magick).

Yeah I unfortunately lost access to discord a few years ago.  Wish I could still get in and see what was going on.

[mansa]

... Yeah I unfortunately lost access to discord a few years ago.  Wish I could still get in and see what was going on.

You can always submit a request to have your discord ban revoked.

[Akaramu]

Would anyone like to provide a summary of what was discussed on Discord (Shaloonsh ideas for more casual play?) I honestly avoid it for any game I play, too many potential OOC pitfalls and not enough hours in the day to even stay halfway up to date.

(Also hi, still alive, looking for boog. Anyone seen boog?)

[Barsook]

I agree, someone of don't read the scrollback.

[Dresan]

Halaster mentioned something similar idea a couple weeks ago on discord.

The overall idea still needs a lot work in terms of detail but  it would work a bit like this:

• Everyone would earn up to 10 points to allocate to any skill while offline.
• Clan members could allocate up to 15 points.
• You would need to log in to assign the points to boost any skill.
• How much points boosts a skill percentage wise would still need to be worked out but we are still talking about 9 months or so of RL time to master a weapon skill this way

The benefits of a system like this are many in a game where the population has been dwindling and will continue to dwindle and become more casual. For example, along with facilitating RP in general, this will help the game retain clan/location options with less people playing the game. After all there only being 1 or just 2 people in an active clan or remote location was a problem even when peak time was 70~ people.  Ultimately, the low population isn't a temporary thing, its been happening for years and accelerating more as there are less people in the game to make things interesting, while at the same time bored people just often pile drive the interesting characters to the ground.

[triste]

Do we ever get to vote on ideas? It feels like players often propose ideas, and then some idea comes from Staff that isn't necessarily what players wanted, and then we just say "Oh this [might be / is] a good change," or, "Oh no, this [might be / was] a bad change."

Yes I know I said "when do we get to pick and vote ideas as players," or similar in the Developer Request (or similar) thread, and in the discord, at which point I was told this isn't a Democracy, which I understand.

But it feels like we've had 2-3 major changes from staff recently where players don't like it and say "WTF was this?" Just from a practicality standpoint it would be more efficient to get people's feedback in advance and listen to that feedback.

[Personally I fear a point skill buy system might get players to play less. Why wait in a clan hall to spar if you don't have to spar anymore? And if you aren't actually logged in to wait for your clannies, how are you ever going to roleplay with them? My offline psionic message idea by definition solves the same problem and by definition will promote more roleplaying because the mechanism itself is roleplay. There are better ideas than what staff are proposing here, and those ideas can come from any of us. Seems like this non roleplay point buy system will kill roleplay and our player counts even more.]

[Khorm]

Seems like this non roleplay point buy system will kill roleplay and our player counts even more.]

disagree 100%.

this lessens the necessity of skill grind for gains, which is a 100% non-roleplay system that exists in place of a more organic system of gain over time. i might be a little more interested in something that is more like eve online, where you pick a skill to improve and it just goes over a period of time. maybe a primary, secondary, tertiary that train at different rates to reflect the less single-mindedness that the point buy could simulate.

this idea and the idea of offline communication serve exactly the same purpose in my mind. curious how they could be separated as good vs bad.

[Malken]

Do we ever get to vote on ideas?

No.

[RavingTregils]

Deja vu. Anyone from the early 90's time will remember mudmail.

I don't see the skill grind as related to the lack of interaction. I like the auto grind idea but I've never had a maxxed out pc and when it gets to the point of watching my skills too closely, I'm past bored with that pc and usually store.

What I found was that nobody needs anyone else - the shops are so full of junk it's a pain in the ass just to scroll through the pages. The game is a crafter's paradise but a hunter/grebber, not so much. Maybe there's a market for something only a good hunter/grebber could get that I didn't see.  I would even leave things around that I was sure other pcs could use...but only the reboot monster was interested.

I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just very different. Since sid is plentiful and mats are plentiful, maybe information is the new currency?

[Fernandezj]

[Personally I fear a point skill buy system might get players to play less. Why wait in a clan hall to spar if you don't have to spar anymore? And if you aren't actually logged in to wait for your clannies, how are you ever going to roleplay with them? My offline psionic message idea by definition solves the same problem and by definition will promote more roleplaying because the mechanism itself is roleplay. There are better ideas than what staff are proposing here, and those ideas can come from any of us. Seems like this non roleplay point buy system will kill roleplay and our player counts even more.]

The idea, as proposed, was NOT to make it so you could basically never login and still be on par with a player that plays actively, but that characters that can only play casually are not LEFT IN THE DUST by players that have unhealthy play schedules. This also, as someone mentioned, helps with clans with no population, and allows for RP opportunities and IC justifications for skill advancement, like a Kadian crafter that is actually learning tentmaking from a master without just spamming tent-craft. Etc.

The idea, in summary:
1. Reduces time investment for players because there is some passive development when offline.
2. Allows for spending more time ONLINE interacting vs. fail-chasing, since you will be generally improving.
3. Allows for players to try out clans that might be "dead" because they don't need an active population to sustain themselves.
4. Helps retain off-peak players.

etc.

[triste]

Well, I guess I shouldn't argue with the idea since I am not on Discord and don't have all the context, by definition this is one sided and a losing battle. So carry on with this idea, it's whatever and hurts indies but have at it lads.

I do ARORE the post and many others like it highlighting the OOC pitfalls of Discord. I wonder how one can stop OOC metagaming while still allowing people to communicate asynchronously and arrange roleplay... I swear someone has been posting about this idea that solves ten problems at once...

* thonk face *

[Narf]

I'm gonna concur that skill gains aren't as important as being able to arrange rp opportunities with players out of game.

Someone proposed the idea where you could basically send your OOC availability to another character via an automated message where all you get to fill in is the times and days you tend to be online. I think that or something like it would do ten times as much for rp as this skill gain idea.

[Khorm]

the thing is that there a lot of widely varied styles of play when it comes to armageddon.

some people go hard on skills. some people go hard on rp. there's a whole giant spectrum in between that people will fall into.

giving players tools to be able to bridge the gaps between those styles of play strikes me as a fantastic idea. like maybe giving people on the heavy skills side of the spectrum a little extra oomph and the people on the rp side of the spectrum a little extra oomph will blur those extremes a bit, moving everyone toward a more productive center.

like in my case - give me some ability to communicate to offline characters so i don't feel like i'm wasting my time by doing some boring idling shit and waiting around for someone when i could go out and do something engaging like "bash braxat".

or in the case of the diehard clan crafter, give them some marginal martial gains so that their huge time investment doesn't get instantly nullified by a newb raider dwarf with ai strength and a two handed bludgeoning weapon.

i feel like these ideas can coexist and they benefit everyone that plays the game. i don't know how i feel about the idea that it would hurt indies. it would benefit them less if they received 10 pts vs 15 pts or whatever arbitrary value gets stated, but there's something to be said for having an entire gmh or noble house or military organization worth of resources at your disposal vs .. a warehouse.

[Dresan]

Well, I guess I shouldn't argue with the idea since I am not on Discord and don't have all the context, by definition this is one sided and a losing battle. So carry on with this idea, it's whatever and hurts indies but have at it lads.

I myself am rarely on discord. That said before any major change its usually communicated here in some official manner, i think(?).

Secondly, the current game is very biased to supporting clanned characters. Indies (who are often the most interesting character IMO) especially those in remote locations are pretty much cut off from any meaningful training without borderline twinking in some cases. This idea would help ideas out the most since they find themselves isolated and alone more often then not, perhaps not as much as clanned character as like with all things but better than nothing at all.

[Fernandezj]

Well, I guess I shouldn't argue with the idea since I am not on Discord and don't have all the context, by definition this is one sided and a losing battle. So carry on with this idea, it's whatever and hurts indies but have at it lads.

I do ARORE the post and many others like it highlighting the OOC pitfalls of Discord. I wonder how one can stop OOC metagaming while still allowing people to communicate asynchronously and arrange roleplay... I swear someone has been posting about this idea that solves ten problems at once...

* thonk face *

A) It was just an idea. Its not being implemented.
B) No one ever said it would just be for clanned people so your whole negativistic mentality that a non-existent feature is out to hurt independents, i.e. "So carry on with this idea, it's whatever and hurts indies but have at it lads." The idea was mainly meant to primarily help those who don't have training buddies in a clan. With some added notion that maybe being a clan with a reputation as being the best at something, would have a minor boost.

You and some other are convinced that OOC coordination of play times is the answer. Some other players would never do this and feel that instead the problem is the game takes too long to develop in the combat-realm, or negatively affects players that can't play at the high levels other people play.

Like Khorm said, there are different types of players. Some would likely like the ease of facilitating interactions, others would like to feel some sort of progression, even if they can only play a couple hours a week. Both are valid wants and solutions to both can exist without canceling the other.

[Pariah]

I love the discussion going on, and I'll have probably a lengthy post to share some of my feelings when I'm not at work.

However, please do be cordial and not attack one another due to disagreement in stances.

I think this would be a waste of a productive forum post to be locked due to fighting one another.  Assume positive intent of others and don't just assume they are out to harm you or your idea.

[Dresan]

Just to add, in my mind there are really two regions of interaction in the game:

Allanak-Rinth-Redstorm (South)

Luirs-Morins-Pah(d-elves/human-tribes) (North)

I think further efforts should be done in the game to strengthen the ability to move and interact within the regions.

For example, the mantis should be a neutral bar not only between west and east but also with the south. The gangs from both sides of the rinth should ensure that path to this bar is clear for visitors from southside who are potentially looking to do some shady business and thus finding people from southside at the mantis should be more common. This small change would increase the interaction between the two areas.

Another example, is that playing around Redstorm  or traveling from Redstorm to allanak should not require direction sense. The majority of the game rooms is wilderness where this skill is vital already. Frankly, I've always wished the locations of redstorm/alanak would get switch with luirs/tuluk because the weather script and just general area around redstorm feels so outdated and clunky sometimes.  I wish this would get high magicked or just reconned into being better.  At the very least there should be more interesting alternatives to getting from one place to the other.

That said the influence one area (for example templars) has on the other needs to continue to be very limited. That way people can still feel like they can fuck up in one place and still go make a living in another.

Luirs-morins is currently in a special transitional situation at the moment it seems so I won't comment on it. (though imo its definitely seems to be gearing up to potentially go into a very interesting direction that players have been wanting to see again...we'll see. ) 

[Akaramu]

I'm gonna concur that skill gains aren't as important as being able to arrange rp opportunities with players out of game.

Someone proposed the idea where you could basically send your OOC availability to another character via an automated message where all you get to fill in is the times and days you tend to be online. I think that or something like it would do ten times as much for rp as this skill gain idea.

This, and also a very limited (and not spyproof) messaging system to reach players who are offline. Back in the day I had SO many plots stopped dead in the water because I could never reach any of the people I needed to reach to advance my plot. Offpeaker with weird random times ftl.

[Khorm]

Just to add, in my mind there are really two regions of interaction in the game:

Allanak-Rinth-Redstorm (South)

Luirs-Morins-Pah(d-elves/human-tribes) (North)

I think further efforts should be done in the game to strengthen the ability to move and interact within the regions.

For example, the mantis should be a neutral bar not only between west and east but also with the south. The gangs from both sides of the rinth should ensure that path to this bar is clear for visitors from southside who are potentially looking to do some shady business and thus finding people from southside at the mantis should be more common. This small change would increase the interaction between the two areas.

Another example, is that playing around Redstorm  or traveling from Redstorm to allanak should not require direction sense. The majority of the game rooms is wilderness where this skill is vital already. Frankly, I've always wished the locations of redstorm/alanak would get switch with luirs/tuluk because the weather script and just general area around redstorm feels so outdated and clunky sometimes.  I wish this would get high magicked or just reconned into being better.  At the very least there should be more interesting alternatives to getting from one place to the other.

That said the influence one area (for example templars) has on the other needs to continue to be very limited. That way people can still feel like they can fuck up in one place and still go make a living in another.

Luirs-morins is currently in a special transitional situation at the moment it seems so I won't comment on it. (though imo its definitely seems to be gearing up to potentially go into a very interesting direction that players have been wanting to see again...we'll see. )

i'm heavy into making the game hard. i also want it to be accessible for people who don't fuck with desert survival or combat elements.

the harshness or the desert and difficulty of travel seem like central thematic elements. kurac exists ic'ly as a means to address this.

it would be cool if there were caravans or some shit that would have departures and arrivals and dates and means to join or leave them. couple npc guards, npc guide, maybe a cart. pay a fee and join, pray you don't get raided. maybe create a system where players can replace the npcs as caravan guards if they're up to snuff. work out details of what happens on either end and if it gets btfo.

or make a player clan that does this. that could be cool?