Coercion, manipulation, and sex.

[williamson]

Let's try to refrain from insulting each other.

At least, OOCly...

[Aromit]

Final warning for all involved. If you cannot treat your fellow player with respect please do not post in topics of discussion with fellow players.

[Lotion]

Final warning for all involved. If you cannot treat your fellow player with respect please do not post in topics of discussion with fellow players.

Would you be willing to consider suspending problem users temporarily from posting rather than ending a discussing that appears to be otherwise productive?

[SodaDogARM]

Not sure how this trailed off into a conversation about flags and character separation. The definition of rape in the docs has left room for nastiness highlighted a dozen times over in this thread, so change the docs. Coming in here to talk about 'harsh realism'  and 'cancel culture' is going to seem 'real sus' in that context, if we're using buzzwords.

It's a fantasy videogame. I'll see your text wizard and raise you the bare minimum expectation PCs don't get locked in a room for sexual favors.

[LindseyBalboa]

Not sure how this trailed off into a conversation about flags and character separation. The definition of rape in the docs has left room for nastiness highlighted a dozen times over in this thread, so change the docs. Coming in here to talk about 'harsh realism'  and 'cancel culture' is going to seem 'real sus' in that context, if we're using buzzwords.

It's a fantasy videogame. I'll see your text wizard and raise you the bare minimum expectation PCs don't get locked in a room for sexual favors.

And I'll raise you the "dozen" times it's been pointed out by staff that would be a bannable offense, which is well-documented already. If you're going to ask people to stay on subject and harp on civility, then the "gaslighting" tactic of forced hyperbole should be left at the door.

However, the docs could use some updating. Some players (or well, Mansa, really) has started up a great job on that already, and asked for feedback. The conversation seems to have had a positive outcome so far - doc updating, staff reinforcement of community expectations and policy - which is great. Here for it.

[Shabago]

Perhaps a further and more stern warning is required.

The most recent player that felt is appropriate to go on an absolutely unwarranted attack is now banned from the boards, banned from the game and will not be welcome back to it, until such time as they write into the request tool to explain why they should be and are capable of coming close to a level of adult maturity.

Anyone else making personal or direct life attacks will find the same outcome. You're all capable of being adults. Act like it.

[SodaDogARM]

And I'll raise you the "dozen" times it's been pointed out by staff that would be a bannable offense, which is well-documented already. If you're going to ask people to stay on subject and harp on civility, then the "gaslighting" tactic of forced hyperbole should be left at the door.

Yes, there are close to if not over a dozen people in this thread that have recognized the behavior exists despite the docs, and they need clarity. You were one of them in your first post. Not sure where the hyperbole is.

Staff can point to it being bannable again and again, but clearly there is a disconnect because great players from this thread want recognizable change, and for good reason.

[triste]

I've been avoiding this thread but my two cents before it is possibly locked, if anyone cares.

On the topic of consent in real life: I was raped less than a year ago, and just last week someone almost killed me. Obviously I consented to neither of these things. I've been vocal about it and speaking about it without deposition training because we live in an absolutely mad and cruel world depending on your circumstances. Because the guy who raped me was never caught, I don't expect the guy who tried to kill me last week to be caught. Something like 90% of rapists are never caught and the stats are similar I am sure for assault. In many places on this planet, it is a privilege to demand consent, particularly if you are female. It may not be right, but that is the reality.

On consent in fiction: Free expression is a human right just like the right to consent, but likewise it can be suppressed. As much as I hate rape and violence in real life, I am fine with it in fiction because I understand reality and fiction are distinctly different. I fear that by limiting fiction and speech, people might be more compelled to lash out in real life. As long as people can choose to engage with fiction or leave it alone, everything should be allowed in fiction.

In conclusion: the ideal human state is for all humans to be maximally free. Free from rape and violence, and free to express themselves. If you care about sexual and physical violence donate to organizations that fight such injustices in real life. Free expression is also something that guarantees human happiness and freedom. It is possible to defend both; it is not incongruous.

[triste]

* donate and/or volunteer

Don't want to be classist, I volunteered a lot as a poor kid growing up.

* cracks another beer and hopes this game is alive and well when I have time for it again. *

[Malken]

Ok but do you want to change the docs or not.

[triste]

I entrust this to you all, I just hope this game can keep its quality as an immersive roleplay engine when I come back. That is and always has been what this game has been about. Reality has no rules, at least none that simple human organisms can fully comprehend or control. Someone can violate or end you at any moment IRL and it is statistically likely they will not face justice. I am an engineer who enjoys simulations (the basis of a lot of machine learning) and am more in favor of authenticity than clumsy restriction.

[triste]

TLDR, to quote someone I am fond of, in simple terms:

No rules.

I will politely vote this way and sip my beer, it was fun to check here again.

[triste]

And just because I am likely going to not check this for another month, but may or may not get other replies like Malken's: there is literally only one rule I think Armageddon should have, and that is that it should be for players over 18 years old now that telnet gaming is a niche hobby.

I was banned from the discord and gladly never came back because I firmly believe this. I want the kiddos out, respectfully, so that we can all experience a world closer to an adult's world than a protected child's world. And then, once we have a game that has been established to be for mature adults, we can do that whatever we want in our reality simulator. Literally so many players who are authentically "the shit" IRL have left, more or less agreeing with me here. I do not like coddling a select few and losing freedom and authenticity as a result of that coddling.

That said, I trust you all. I still enjoy the combat mechanics and the core setting of this simulator, if not the OOC dictated rules layered over the simulator.

[RavingTregils]

Help files are like user manuals - opened after a problem surfaces. I have empathy for those who find themselves caught up in the RP of the moment and are unable to figure out their best OOC options on the fly - that distance thing. So how can you get someone to make a good decision for themselves at that moment?

How about reminder notifications (realize you can do a better job than I do)?

When someone types "OOC Consent" have a reminder pop up. Just to break the moment and say "Hey, are you sure this is appropriate?" like:
"You are about to embark upon sexual or graphic torture RP. FTB is always an option. If you feel this Consent request breaks the rules report immediately."

There could be an agreement page Y/N in each char creation to make sure people have at least seen the rape/coercion rules before they are allowed to create a character.

[Veselka]

I think we just need to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to consent. Like I mentioned, you can always offer the alternative in your consent request.

OOC: Consent granted for graphic scene (sexual)? Or FTB (Fade to Black)? I personally offer consent, but am fine with fading to black as well.

OOC: Consent granted for graphic scene (torture, mild mutilation)? If we Fade to Black, the maiming/torture will still occur, but be off screen. Alternatively, if you do not wish to live with a maimed PC, we can do a straightforward kill/execution.

It seems like word soup, but really, it's just more clear communication than:

OOC: Consent?

Which is what I see from people 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time I just see:

OOC: Consent to adult erotica?

or

OOC: Consent to torture?

So, by not offering the alternative options as Players within that consent guideline, we are putting the pressure on the other parties to consent without (possibly) understanding there are alternatives.

[Blanc de Ocotillo]

I think we just need to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to consent. Like I mentioned, you can always offer the alternative in your consent request.

OOC: Consent granted for graphic scene (sexual)? Or FTB (Fade to Black)? I personally offer consent, but am fine with fading to black as well.

OOC: Consent granted for graphic scene (torture, mild mutilation)? If we Fade to Black, the maiming/torture will still occur, but be off screen. Alternatively, if you do not wish to live with a maimed PC, we can do a straightforward kill/execution.

It seems like word soup, but really, it's just more clear communication than:

OOC: Consent?

Which is what I see from people 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time I just see:

OOC: Consent to adult erotica?

or

OOC: Consent to torture?

So, by not offering the alternative options as Players within that consent guideline, we are putting the pressure on the other parties to consent without (possibly) understanding there are alternatives.

Agreed! Also just..if you are in a leadership role just OOC:" Hey are you to possibly pursuing a relationship with my pc? " as soon as the thought jumps into your head and BEFORE it gets all super uncomfortable. This is not a hard thing to do.

[Dar]

OOC: Consent granted for graphic scene (torture, mild mutilation)? If we Fade to Black, the maiming/torture will still occur, but be off screen. Alternatively, if you do not wish to live with a maimed PC, we can do a straightforward kill/execution.

Filing a complaint about you Veselka. Veselka player OOCd me: Consent for graphic scenes, or maiming. But in their request they threatened they'd kill me if I refuse. I was unnecessary pressured to endure torture, just to keep my character alive. 



I'm being funny, of course. But I trust you get the point?

[Lotion]

Maiming is they can oocly decide to die from the maiming if they don't want to play the character with that permanent disability.
e.g. My character cuts your character's dick off and you ask to be killed by the procedure.
So I type
ooc please set nosave combat so that your character can die as easily as possible

Fading torture is because you don't want to see emotes about torture on your screen and then rp around them. If they weren't going to kill you if you don't fade then it's unreasonable to kill you if you don't. After the fade you'll still be playing a character who has just been tortured, the same as if you didn't fade.

[Alesan]

I appreciate this thread for informing me that you can choose to fade torture instead of either consenting to it or dying.

[Dar]

Are you being serious?

Oh damn. Then yeah. This whole thread is worthy of just that alone.


To be honest. Yeah! Do not be afraid to FTB.  Any scene really that you can maintain story continuity with FTBing, you should be able to FTB.

[Malken]

So I have a strange question...

What if my PC shadows a couple and they end up in a room, my PC stays hidden because at first they're just talking and suddenly they start doing the deed and they both consent... Do I also need to consent and by doing so outing myself? We all know that at that point 99% of players would suddenly start scanning like mad and probably FTB and now my PC is risking to be exposed and/or killed.

Could I just wish up either to consent (and wait till they're in the middle of it to either steal the key and get out and/or murder them) or wish up to ask Staff to teleport me out of the room?

[mansa]

So I have a strange question...

What if my PC shadows a couple and they end up in a room, my PC stays hidden because at first they're just talking and suddenly they start doing the deed and they both consent... Do I also need to consent and by doing so outing myself? We all know that at that point 99% of players would suddenly start scanning like mad and probably FTB and now my PC is risking to be exposed and/or killed.

Could I just wish up either to consent (and wait till they're in the middle of it to either steal the key and get out and/or murder them) or wish up to ask Staff to teleport me out of the room?

What's the intent of the consent rules?  How was life different before and after the policy became official?



::edit::

The intent of the consent rule is to allow players, who do not wish to roleplay out certain experiences and storylines, a way to skip or 'fastforward' those interactions.  The policy allows for you to wish up and request some intervention by the staff, which will be clarified with you before it happens.

[Riev]

So I have a strange question...

What if my PC shadows a couple and they end up in a room, my PC stays hidden because at first they're just talking and suddenly they start doing the deed and they both consent... Do I also need to consent and by doing so outing myself? We all know that at that point 99% of players would suddenly start scanning like mad and probably FTB and now my PC is risking to be exposed and/or killed.

Could I just wish up either to consent (and wait till they're in the middle of it to either steal the key and get out and/or murder them) or wish up to ask Staff to teleport me out of the room?

If that situation occurs, and the PCs immediately start scanning and changing what they were doing due to an OOC request to fade to black, thats reportable.

Though I WOULD suggest doing a wish all Shadowed some people into an apartment. They're engaging in an adult scene, can I get TP'd out so they can continue?

But really, if players start scanning, they're doing it wrong. They don't know if its a PC, or a staffer who was watching, or whatever.

[Malken]

If that situation occurs, and the PCs immediately start scanning and changing what they were doing due to an OOC request to fade to black, thats reportable.

Though I WOULD suggest doing a wish all Shadowed some people into an apartment. They're engaging in an adult scene, can I get TP'd out so they can continue?

But really, if players start scanning, they're doing it wrong. They don't know if its a PC, or a staffer who was watching, or whatever.

Yeah, that's probably what I would do.. Also, it would be kind of strange that a staff ooc's that they are not consenting to the scene - so in that case, the players would probably guess that there's another player in the room and .. I don't know, I guess I'll just go with it if that ever happens to me.

Does quit ooc breaks hide? Maybe if there's no one to answer the wish and the scene is ongoing, that could also be a solution... You quit ooc and shoot staff a request asking them to move you out of the room.

[Lotion]

The consent helpfile says all visible so they don't need your consent to start going at it if you're not visible, really the biggest decision to make is when to type backstab