Some finer details about money.

[Ulga]

So, I've been in the game some months now. I'm starting to feel something off about money.
At first, I thought that certain items were peculiarly priced. I still think this is true in some instances, like with mounts. You'd be hard-pressed to search history for an instance where medium-end shirts cost more than beasts of burden in the same time and location. The shirts are just one example. Beasts of burden, I think, are vastly underpriced. Their variation in price is also negligible.
Another odd example: a few clumps of dung = the cost of an arrow.
Another odd example: You can buy a potshard from a presumably poor merchant for a few coins. 100 broken pieces of clay pot = the value of a domesticated working animal. Seems weird.
Its also weird that 2-3 IG days of grebbing, salting, hunting, whoring could easily net enough profit after food and water to buy a mount. If this is the case, why doesnt every free commoner own a pack-beast?
There are a few issues going on:
First, inflation. The fact that it is hard to find items for sale under 10 units of currency is a red flag.
Second, the presence of only one unit of currency - the obsidian coin - (in a place where economic inequality is so very high) makes it hard to rectify the differences between slum markets and higher-end markets. At present, the differences are relatively non-existent. Your average knife in the slums costs about as much as an average knife elsewhere. In fact, to touch back on the first point, the fact that you cannot find any items within a commoner's market for 1 unit of currency is weird. Heck, a piece of rotten fruit costs a few.

The International Institute of Social History has some valuable insight into Ancient Babylon's currency and prices. link: http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/babylon.php

In ancient Babylon, the Shekel was always the basic monetary unit. 8.33 grams of silver. During the Hellenistic period, payments were also made in Greek coins. 2 shekels = 1 drachmas. 4 drachmas = 1 stater.

This type of multi-value currency is essential once a civilization starts growing, even in fantasy realms like:
DnD
Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum, in 10x increments of value (boooo electrum)
WoW
Copper, Silver, Gold, in 100x increments of value.
In fact, RPers in WoW offer the advice that when RPing with Copper, Silver, Gold, that it can be, and should be treated like real-life currency. For instance, 1 copper = 1 dollar. 1 silver - 100 dollars. 1 gold - 10,000 dollars. This seems very appropriate for prices in relation to one another. If you can buy an arrow for 20 sids ($20 irl, which is accurate), then you walk a few yards over and buy an ox for 450 sids..... Thats like buying a whole ass cow for 450 bucks. Lol.


So, whats up with the money? I assume that in the last 30 years of this game's existence that currency has been discussed before, but I dont see anything too recent. lets have a chat.

[mansa]

Economies in ArmageddonMUD are based on a few game design decisions that are all historical from DIKUmud code written in 1990.

NPC merchants have a limit, based on the item#, of how many they will purchase from the players.
The limit is 5.
If someone has "an obsidian tipped, green-fletched arrow" and "an obsidian tipped, blue-fletched arrow", since they are different item#, the NPC merchant will purchase a maximum of 5 of them to keep in their inventories.
You can trade <items> to NPC merchants for currency.


NPC merchants, for the most part, are the only source that generates "currency", for the players to use.
Most MOBs do /not/ have a currency that you can acquire when you kill them.  Scrabs don't give you 50 obsidian coins, but they give you <items>.  You can only convert these <items> into currency via NPC merchants, and see the problem above.
Other ways to create "currency" for the players to use are paymaster/quartermasters from CLAN NPCs, where you can request your monthly payments and they will "create currency" for players to use.


Question:  Where do players get Currency from?   
Answer:  NPC merchants.

Question:  Why do some items cost a certain value?
Answer:  Because staff members thought the cost to attain those <items> should take a certain amount of playtime.

Question:  How much currency should players be able to acquire within a certain playtime?
Answer:      If I were to guess, I'd say something around 80~100 coins per real life hour.

Question:  Doesn't that seem a lot of coins, compared to the theme and world building of Zalanthas?
Answer:  Yes.  It does!  But it's a balance between fun, playability, and realism.  We don't want to force our players to keep playing the game in order to afford their character's rent.

Question:  Why don't we have different currencies?
Answer:  We do!  Some NPCs will trade for other <objects> instead of coins.  You can also use the barter system to trade one item for another item!

Question:  No, I mean, I want 'ruby coins' or 'ivory coins'.
Answer:  That is already implemented, but, are you asking for a "moneychanger" NPC?  Have NPCs only accept the 'ivory coins' ?   In order to implement this, the NPCs need to be created, and this is work for the staff.   At that point - it's the juggling of user stories and work/effort vs player usage for implementing.

[Ulga]

Right. Most of that is a given, I think.
A few things you mentioned struck the nail on the head, such as:

Question:  Why do some items cost a certain value?
Answer:  Because staff members thought the cost to attain those <items> should take a certain amount of playtime.

Question:  How much currency should players be able to acquire within a certain playtime?
Answer:      If I were to guess, I'd say something around 80~100 coins per real life hour.

Question:  Doesn't that seem a lot of coins, compared to the theme and world building of Zalanthas?
Answer:  Yes.  It does!  But it's a balance between fun, playability, and realism.  We don't want to force our players to keep playing the game in order to afford their character's rent.

So, from these three statements together, it seems as though, in an attempt to increase fun and playability, at the heavy cost of realism, certain items were priced a certain way, which results in a lot of the oddities I noticed.
Oddly enough, this sentiment does not apply across topics, say, to skills. Huge grind, there. I'm not opposed to this, mind you! In fact, I'd be happy if the cost of mounts was something more realistic, like a few thousand for a solid beetle.

I wasnt asking for extra currencies for the sake of having shiny ruby coins. I was thinking more for realism. For instance, if a typical food item in the slums costs 20 coins, and it also costs 20 coins outside of the slums.... Why does anybody ever live in the slums, save for nefarious purposes? Usually people live in slums because they are poor, and it is hard to make enough money to live the lifestyle offered by a higher-class location. But if there are (free) public dormitories, and the same cost of basic necessities..... See what I mean?
Now, if you couldnt sell anything in the slums for more than a sid or two, and this was mirrored by their prices.... Thats a step in the right direction.

I think the game would have an awful lot more flavor if Jimmy-The-Salter over here was stressing because he had a bad salting trip today, and has to choose whether to eat or make rent.
It would also prevent every tom, dick, and harry from being decked out in horror plate armor and diamond jewelry.

The fact that carry-weight is universal across all socio-economic classes, which prevents higher amounts of value from being carried freely, means there is a physical limit to the amount of coin which may be carried. This limit gives us (whether a PC rinther or a PC Templar) a visceral, innate valuation of what a sid is. That max number, whatever it is.

The fact that the minimum amount of currency you can carry is 1, this means with a simple 10,000x, you could hire a mercenary company to do your bidding.....

Compare this ratio to USD. minimum able to be carried: 1 penny. 10000x 1 penny. Thats like hiring a mercenary company with 100 bucks. See where this is just wrong?

[Halasturd]

Part of the reason mounts don't cost more is playability and making them obtainable by new-ish characters.  Unless you're a desert elf, you can't get very far in the desert on foot, you need a mount.  If it was a lot more difficult to get one, then newer characters would have a harder time leaving civilization and doing things to earn money, explore, etc.  So yeah, you could say that the average commoner could easily afford a mount.  Maybe that's true, even, but then the average commoner simply may not want one.  They may not want to leave the city and so have no need for a mount.  It's really just one of those situations where playability beats out realism.

Plus, the economy has evolved over many RL years and a lot of things are still priced based on ideas from a while back.  Revamping and overhauling would be an enormous investment of time and pretty disruptive to the game.  That's not to say it shouldn't or couldn't happen, but someone on staff would have to be willing to take that on.  And let's be honest, that doesn't sounds like a of fun to most people.

[Ulga]

Your second paragraph makes perfect sense, Halasturd.
The first, however, is self-defeating.
First, you said that the mounts are cheap for new-players, as if they are essential. Then, you said that the average commoner simply may not want one. This line of reasoning only makes sense if the game was designed to make every single PC above the average commoner. This would explain why I've not seen any PC beggars, whores, or workers. However, I think that is against the design of immersive RP.

[Narf]

If you're looking for a way to explain why a PC can make so much more than an NPC, consider that the PC only makes coins while they're being played while an NPC can make coins continuously. For players that play a lot, they might hedge out an NPC's ability to make coins, but if you're playing a couple days a week for a couple hours a day and you make 400 coins in that time, and NPC would have had 112 days to make that much coin (so about 4 coins a day of profit). That's not unreasonable.

[Ulga]

So, the casual vs dedicated playability argument. Its an argument to be had, but the consensus, regardless of the game being played, (WoW, Ragnarok, RS, PoE, GW, or any mud/mush out there) is that low-rate servers are the most rewarding, and offer the highest level of realism.

[9001]

On the topic of improving the game's economy...

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54533.0.html

Lots of work has been going into it, and I'm pretty sure lots more work will be put into it. While there's a lot to be said on playability when it comes to why the game isn't, and shouldn't be some kind of perfect economic simulator, it's also important to remember that this is a roleplay intensive environment. The code doesn't need to perfectly enforce the economic factors of Zalanthas in order for you to believably play someone from the slums, or a down on their luck grebber/salter. While the coded aspects of the game should be balanced in a way that reflects the world, I think it's still primarily incumbent on the players to approach things in a way that makes sense for the role they want to play.

[Ulga]

9001, thanks for the link. I can see work is being done to change item prices in relation to their material costs. This is cool.

I totally agree with you that players are responsible for their roleplay. That being said, its still odd that if you are RPing an un-skilled beggar, you're not far away from making big moves.

[mansa]

...

So, from these three statements together, it seems as though, in an attempt to increase fun and playability, at the heavy cost of realism, certain items were priced a certain way, which results in a lot of the oddities I noticed.
Oddly enough, this sentiment does not apply across topics, say, to skills. Huge grind, there. I'm not opposed to this, mind you! In fact, I'd be happy if the cost of mounts was something more realistic, like a few thousand for a solid beetle.

You can never decrease in skill, where you can decrease in currency.  The grind to collect skills never goes backwards, where the grind to collect coins is to spend them to keep your character alive/fed/housed.

I wasnt asking for extra currencies for the sake of having shiny ruby coins. I was thinking more for realism. For instance, if a typical food item in the slums costs 20 coins, and it also costs 20 coins outside of the slums.... Why does anybody ever live in the slums, save for nefarious purposes?

NPCs can buy item types at different rates.  It seems the staff member who implemented it didn't set different buy prices for those particular item types.

Usually people live in slums because they are poor, and it is hard to make enough money to live the lifestyle offered by a higher-class location. But if there are (free) public dormitories, and the same cost of basic necessities..... See what I mean?
Now, if you couldnt sell anything in the slums for more than a sid or two, and this was mirrored by their prices.... Thats a step in the right direction.

This can exist, and does exist.  You can tell Salarr NPCs sell the same sword at a higher price than some elven merchant, and buy at a different price.

Re: Free "quit rooms" are definitely a playability decision, because you don't want to let your players have their characters harmed/killed because they didn't gather enough cotton from the fields in order to successfully 'quit' playing a game.

I think the game would have an awful lot more flavor if Jimmy-The-Salter over here was stressing because he had a bad salting trip today, and has to choose whether to eat or make rent.

I would stop playing this game if I was forced to spend my real-life time to do some coded action I didn't want to do in order to make my character survive.  If they implemented bowel movements, I'd probably split too.

It would also prevent every tom, dick, and harry from being decked out in horror plate armor and diamond jewelry.

The fact that carry-weight is universal across all socio-economic classes, which prevents higher amounts of value from being carried freely, means there is a physical limit to the amount of coin which may be carried. This limit gives us (whether a PC rinther or a PC Templar) a visceral, innate valuation of what a sid is. That max number, whatever it is.

The fact that the minimum amount of currency you can carry is 1, this means with a simple 10,000x, you could hire a mercenary company to do your bidding.....

Compare this ratio to USD. minimum able to be carried: 1 penny. 10000x 1 penny. Thats like hiring a mercenary company with 100 bucks. See where this is just wrong?

The big questions that I have are..

Is there a game play design regarding currency accumulation and what is that value?  i.e. should players be able to earn 200 coins during 1 gameplay session?  Less?
Are there particular game play actions that give over that value, or under that value?  i.e. should mount rent be 20 coins, or 200 coins?
Are cultural events priced correctly?  i.e. should the Byn be 300 coins, or 1000 coins?   


They all tie back to the original question - how much coins should a typical player be able to earn in a typical session?  And in my mind, everything should be priced out at that.   And that's a lot of effort Shabago has been doing over two years.

[Ulga]

You can never decrease in skill, where you can decrease in currency.  The grind to collect skills never goes backwards, where the grind to collect coins is to spend them to keep your character alive/fed/housed.

Solid point. Though, when people talk about playability and the casual/dedicated player dichotomy, skill progression is always brought up.

NPCs can buy item types at different rates.  It seems the staff member who implemented it didn't set different buy prices for those particular item types.

So, they can, but they dont to the degree which would make living in the slums a necessity. If a formerly middle-class person lost all of their possessions and had to start life over, they wouldnt go to the rinth for cheap food and water, because its not there. There is no monetary reason to ever live in the slums, which is the only reason your average person lives in slums irl.

edited to add: If a person living in the slums' life-goal was to make it out of the slums, and they have zero coin.... They could do it in a few days, because cost of living in the slums and out of the slums is virtually the same.

This can exist, and does exist.  You can tell Salarr NPCs sell the same sword at a higher price than some elven merchant, and buy at a different price.

Re: Free "quit rooms" are definitely a playability decision, because you don't want to let your players have their characters harmed/killed because they didn't gather enough cotton from the fields in order to successfully 'quit' playing a game.

Right, so it can exist, and does in negligible amounts, but not to the degree where it makes an impact on the relative value of currency.

I dont think public dormitories are a playability decision. I think they are a realistic decision. Public dormitories in ancient times were not unheard of. Keep in mind, I am not talking about every single quit-room in the game, but those designated as explicit public dormitories.

I would stop playing this game if I was forced to spend my real-life time to do some coded action I didn't want to do in order to make my character survive.  If they implemented bowel movements, I'd probably split too.

Right, because you dont want to play a salter. If someone wanted to, and they played reasonably, they could still get insanely rich in no-time, because of the value of currency and items in-game.

The big questions that I have are..

Is there a game play design regarding currency accumulation and what is that value?  i.e. should players be able to earn 200 coins during 1 gameplay session?  Less?
Are there particular game play actions that give over that value, or under that value?  i.e. should mount rent be 20 coins, or 200 coins?
Are cultural events priced correctly?  i.e. should the Byn be 300 coins, or 1000 coins?   


They all tie back to the original question - how much coins should a typical player be able to earn in a typical session?  And in my mind, everything should be priced out at that.   And that's a lot of effort Shabago has been doing over two years.

I think that line of thinking is backwards, and does not lend itself to realism in the least.
You're building the world based on the lowest common denominator. This is why everyone who is not a casual player can get decked out in horror-plate and diamonds with relatively little effort.


If I were to throw out a minimal-effort solution to my perceived problems, I would say.... Cut all existing coin IG by 90%, have all coin dispensing utilities cut their numbers by 90%, cut the price of basic foods, waters, and low-end items by 50-75%.
After this, see how it goes, and make alterations based on the response.

[Maso]

I don't have a huge amount to add, since I think Mansa et al have covered most of it pretty thoroughly.

But I would definitely enjoy seeing a much bigger price variation in mounts. E.g. starter mounts that cost 300-500 'sid...and pretty awesome ones (codedly as 'good' as we have now but maybe some vanity perks, or slightly improved carry capacity, rarer animals etc) that are more like 3000...and some in between.

[Ulga]

Lol that would be a start, Maso. Or even further. Irl you can expect to spend a few thousand dollars on a horse. You can also get an Aged horse for a few hundred bucks on craigslist. They are slower, weaker, and probably going to die or go lame soon. Current prices IG would kinda make sense for aged mounts.

Then you have your average horses, selling for a few thousand.

Then you have thoroughbreds, which could cost you anywhere from there to over 100 thousand. Sometimes the strongest, the fastest, the most beautiful, the smartest, highly trained, etc.

[Narf]

One thing I've considered when designing my own games is using a dual currency system; One for the rich and one for the poor.

Poor people might deal in things like coins to buy basic necessities and tools for their respective jobs, but if you want something really spectacular coins aren't going to cut it. You need something special, something like... Paper money.

Paper money would represent promissory notes from people that are actually important, though honestly what they exactly represent isn't so important as how you get them. No normal coin-generation profession could generate paper money. You could only get them from other players, or if you're a noble or high ranking merchant. If you were foolish or desperate maybe you could trade them for coins, but you could never trade coins for paper money. Paper money would be used to buy all the really fancy things in game. The horror plate, taxes for your burgeoning merchant house, certain items deemed 'marks of status' like silk.

The particulars could be shifted to represent something more culturally appropriate to the world, I just pulled these examples out of my poseterior, but the point of it would be that it would keep you from "grinding" into certain types of wealth. The only way to get the true marks of status, or the really good items in game would be by interacting with other players, and the nobility/high merchants would be the best (though not only) option.

[Cabooze]

Part of the reason mounts don't cost more is playability and making them obtainable by new-ish characters.  Unless you're a desert elf, you can't get very far in the desert on foot, you need a mount.  If it was a lot more difficult to get one, then newer characters would have a harder time leaving civilization and doing things to earn money, explore, etc.  So yeah, you could say that the average commoner could easily afford a mount.  Maybe that's true, even, but then the average commoner simply may not want one.  They may not want to leave the city and so have no need for a mount.  It's really just one of those situations where playability beats out realism.

Plus, the economy has evolved over many RL years and a lot of things are still priced based on ideas from a while back.  Revamping and overhauling would be an enormous investment of time and pretty disruptive to the game.  That's not to say it shouldn't or couldn't happen, but someone on staff would have to be willing to take that on.  And let's be honest, that doesn't sounds like a of fun to most people.

I think that the game's currency has become so inflated,  90% of items and player's bank accounts can be taken to 1/10th current value when priced more than a range between 500-1500, inform players of the OOC changes to the economy, and the world would function much the same with such artificial inflation removed. What once was 20k is now 2k, and those penny-pinched 'sids are finally worth something again. It would make it easier to find yourself falling into poverty's pocket, something which is almost completely removed from the playstyle of veterans unless it's self-imposed. Herbs, pelts, meats, stone-ware and simpleton equipment should not net you thousands of 'sids on every visit to the shop. Maybe a few hundred if you're particularly loaded down on that text-loot. Maybe even tone the economy down so far where half-coins become something akin to change, like coin currency is to paper currency in the US.

The amount of time-sink required by staff to do this makes it almost totally unviable, though. Dreamers can dream.

Edit: Oh hey I didn't read through all of the thread before I put in my opinion: Seems I'm not the only one!!

Cut all existing coin IG by 90%, have all coin dispensing utilities cut their numbers by 90%, cut the price of basic foods, waters, and low-end items by 50-75%.
After this, see how it goes, and make alterations based on the response.

[Ulga]

Narf, thats a pretty cool system you have in mind. It would be interesting to see implemented. It reminds me of Slave-chits vs usd.

Cabooze. I'm right there with ya, except for the bit about the time-sink/inviability. You could toss a code-monkey a couple hundred bucks and have it done in no time.

[Brytta Léofa]

NPCs can buy item types at different rates.  It seems the staff member who implemented it didn't set different buy prices for those particular item types.

So, they can, but they dont to the degree which would make living in the slums a necessity. If a formerly middle-class person lost all of their possessions and had to start life over, they wouldnt go to the rinth for cheap food and water, because its not there. There is no monetary reason to ever live in the slums, which is the only reason your average person lives in slums irl.

I think this point is especially interesting. Especially the point that slum merchants should buy approximately everything, but at absolute cut rates.

Solike in Allanak:

- Bazaar NPCs should buy and sell things at 100% value modifier.
- Common Quarter, non-Bazaar NPCs should buy and sell things at 70% of Bazaar prices.
- Rinth NPCs should buy and sell things at 10% of Bazaar prices.
- Also the rinth should have a SUPER cheap grey water seller.

Does this result in the slum merchants being generally preferred? I don't think it does. I think it results in:
- Desperate commoners buy stuff in the rinth - super cheap but kinda dangerous.
- Normal commoners buy stuff in the commons if they can. PC crafters sell their surplus here.
- The Bazaar always has the most variety, because it gives sellers the best prices.

BTW, giving people a non-flavor reason to live in the rinth is amazing.

[Ulga]

Not bad, not bad. It solves the problem of "why does any non-criminal live in the rinth?" Cheap stuff. Lower cost of living.

Doesnt address relative prices, but its a solid start.

[Veselka]

Spice/Fleeing the Law.

[rinthrat]

Not bad, not bad. It solves the problem of "why does any non-criminal live in the rinth?"

This is a bit of a tangent, but this is a relatively new problem. There used to be, and IMO still should be, a massive stigma attached to rinthis. They're not citizens. Even the Byn didn't take them 10 or so years ago. Why hire a rinthi, when there are thousands of starving commoners in the city proper that already know how to behave and probably won't rob you and run off to the lawless part of the city where you can't get back at them?

Right now, there is little reason to stay for anyone that's human and not a mutant or rotting alive. No PC in their right mind would stick around when they can just work for a noble instead. This wouldn't be much of a problem if employers treated rinthis like the complete scum they're supposed to be.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think most employers will hire a rat who acts like a rat, and many still won't hire one if they know where they've come from. But I'm more than alright with a rat being able to, over time, leave the Rinth and become someone else. And I'm alright with certain clans using them for certain reasons. I dislike the idea of forcing every Rinthi that ever walks to follow the same sort of issues that elves have.

[rinthrat]

I dislike the idea of forcing every Rinthi that ever walks to follow the same sort of issues that elves have.

Why? This worked in the past, and it doesn't seem to hurt the elf population. It creates conflict. It encourages anyone that wants to leave to take measures to hide their origins. If that's not who you want to play, you can always play a poor PC from Allanak proper instead.

I've seen PCs slowly crawl their way out, but I've also seen obvious rinthis get hired pretty much out of chargen. Right now, as the player of a human rinthi, you need to actively put in effort and dodge opportunities that just get thrown at you, and go out of your way to find an excuse NOT to leave.

[Ulga]

This is a bit of a tangent, but this is a relatively new problem. There used to be, and IMO still should be, a massive stigma attached to rinthis. They're not citizens. Even the Byn didn't take them 10 or so years ago. Why hire a rinthi, when there are thousands of starving commoners in the city proper that already know how to behave and probably won't rob you and run off to the lawless part of the city where you can't get back at them?

Right now, there is little reason to stay for anyone that's human and not a mutant or rotting alive. No PC in their right mind would stick around when they can just work for a noble instead. This wouldn't be much of a problem if employers treated rinthis like the complete scum they're supposed to be.

Rinthis aren't citizens? I never knew that. From the docs, what I saw of the rinth was that it used to just be the poorer commoner's quarter before it degenerated. In the months I've played, I dont think I've ever seen anyone being mean to someone for their rinthi accent.... They're generally well-accepted...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why? This worked in the past, and it doesn't seem to hurt the elf population. It creates conflict. It encourages anyone that wants to leave to take measures to hide their origins. If that's not who you want to play, you can always play a poor PC from Allanak proper instead.

I've seen PCs slowly crawl their way out, but I've also seen obvious rinthis get hired pretty much out of chargen. Right now, as the player of a human rinthi, you need to actively put in effort and dodge opportunities that just get thrown at you, and go out of your way to find an excuse NOT to leave.

Mostly I dislike it because I want to foster OOC player inclusion, not because I think it's a good idea in game. I do admit that I hate a Rinthi getting nailed down by a non-Rinthi entity without being exceptional for a prolonged amount of time, but because of how player population works, I understand why this sort of thing happens. But then again, if Rinthis just stayed in the Rinth, that wouldn't happen.

I would vastly prefer to see the struggle though, to become accepted, to your point. I just don't want to vilify the Southside using the Northside when a Northsider decides they want to try and make a break for the better part of town, as long as the Northsider is, personality wise, fit for duty.

Rinthis aren't citizens?

Rinthis are citizens like elves are citizens - nominally, because they live within the Walls of Allanak.

... what I saw of the rinth was that it used to just be the poorer commoner's quarter before it degenerated ...

I'm not completely sure about the history of how the Rinth became the Rinth, but yes, in Ages past, it wasn't the Rinth.

... I dont think I've ever seen anyone being mean to someone for their rinthi accent ...

That's not good. You should have seen people being less than accepting of a Rinthi Accent. How mean depends on who is doing the accepting, but a normal commoner is going to be distrustful of someone with a Rinthi accent, and normal Nobles are going to be downright derisive and dismissive of someone with a Rinthi accent.

... They're generally well-accepted...

And again, this depends on who they are dealing with. Your mileage will vary.