Author Topic: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q  (Read 3923 times)

mirk_o_loio

  • Posts: 195
Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« on: November 18, 2020, 08:52:34 PM »
Everyone knows it.
You just apped in your char... a krathi, whiran, whatever that needs two karma. Good! You're happy, you're full of ideas. Yoz set out to carve your name into history. But then one of the following happens.

->Drov Beetle says hi in a sandstorm with 15hrs played.
->Cavernmouth yompar decides it has to reel-lock you two hours out of the gate.
->Various other sudden, untimely deaths.

And now you're there, raging at your phone/Computer because *lol ur karma gone 1-3 months* and you have to roll up a mundane again and do the same old shit over and over again for two months, only for the same thing to happen.

I would like to suggest with this post that the Karma timer be removed/halved to reduce the amount of pure, unrelenting rage our players go trough when this shit happens.
Quote
Tek's Balls - See Utep's teeth.



If life gives you lemons, open a lemonade stand untill you make millions, invest into weapons and go to war.

Narf

  • Posts: 1051
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2020, 09:01:03 PM »
I feel like these suggestions would be more persuasive if they included proposals that would deal with the resultant increase in magic users, or at least provided a persuasive argument why such a thing wouldn't be an issue.

mirk_o_loio

  • Posts: 195
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2020, 09:12:21 PM »
A few more gicks around would not hurt anyone.
With the current setting all gicks you have are either:
->Twinking in their apartment/hideout because fuck waiting 1-3 months if I get seen/killt
->Dead.
->Out in the sands hunting and doing shit like a normal person, waiting for the above to happen.
Quote
Tek's Balls - See Utep's teeth.



If life gives you lemons, open a lemonade stand untill you make millions, invest into weapons and go to war.

mirk_o_loio

  • Posts: 195
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2020, 09:16:06 PM »
I might want to add: We're not only talking witches.

Half giants, delves, muls also exist.
Quote
Tek's Balls - See Utep's teeth.



If life gives you lemons, open a lemonade stand untill you make millions, invest into weapons and go to war.

Kyviantre

  • Posts: 682
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2020, 09:33:43 PM »
The amount of magickers, muls, giants and delves seems about right imho.  Or at least, there are a few 'staples' of each, and a constant ebb and flow of fresh ones (some that become staples, some don't).

Yes, it is frustrating to get deaded, but we don't really need power creep.  And there is always special apps.

It is good to encourage people to make mundanes - although I will agree, more carrot would be nice (in addition to this stick).
Previous of note: Kaevya the blind Tor Scorpion, Kaloraynai 'Raynai' the beetle Ruk, Korenyire of SLK, Koal 'Kick' the hooved Whiran, Kocadici/Dici/Glimmer, Koefaxine the giant Oashi 'Aide', Kosmia 'Grit' the rinthi
Current: Like I'd tell you.

Dar

  • Posts: 1683
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2020, 09:39:46 PM »
Everyone knows it.
You just apped in your char... a krathi, whiran, whatever that needs two karma. Good! You're happy, you're full of ideas. Yoz set out to carve your name into history. But then one of the following happens.

->Drov Beetle says hi in a sandstorm with 15hrs played.
->Cavernmouth yompar decides it has to reel-lock you two hours out of the gate.
->Various other sudden, untimely deaths.

And now you're there, raging at your phone/Computer because *lol ur karma gone 1-3 months* and you have to roll up a mundane again and do the same old shit over and over again for two months, only for the same thing to happen.

I would like to suggest with this post that the Karma timer be removed/halved to reduce the amount of pure, unrelenting rage our players go trough when this shit happens.

Forgive me, but I disagree with you.  Playing a mundane is not a bad thing. Even if you consider them a throw away and do not plan to keep it beyond a month, or two.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1299
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2020, 09:47:18 PM »
I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

mansa

  • Posts: 10209
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2020, 09:47:46 PM »
I've always been a big advocate for spendable karma.

2010 - Spendable Karma
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38144.0.html

2007 - Regen Karma
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.msg295715.html#msg295715

In fact - that whole thread is what I've lived through in the game, and it's a period of the game I never want to experience again.
( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html )



The reason why spendable karma was implemented was to combat power creep.

Every single magicker that gets created has the potential to be on another power level than every non-magicker player.  At some point, if enough magickers gather together, the intended play of these types of characters have massive world-changing impacts.  It's no longer about who stole from whom, who can beat whom in a sparring match, or who can gather what material and bring it back into the city to sell.  They trivialize the game difficulty, specially when dealing with player-vs-player events.


The intent of the karma spend system is to automate the act of telling the playerbase, "No, you cannot get what you want.  The game will go on without your idea today.  Try again at a later date."   I mean, who among the staff actually like telling the players, 'This super amazing character application will be world changing and blow my mind, but we have too many in game so you have to wait, denied."  It's easier to just automate rejection.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 10:05:42 PM by mansa »
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2020, 10:11:13 PM »
I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

I'd be in favor of this or some other chance to have a redo/refund if you die within a short time window.

I'm a Rawlsian and I hate imagining situations like "[1] New player submits a special app Whiran Touched, [2] New player waits 39 days for said app to be approved, [3] New Player dies as a result of their first spell cast because they didn't know any better [4] New player quits."

Nearly every player in a situation like this with human emotions will submit some request or another, and have a hit-or-miss verdict granting amnesty. If anything an automation like this would take some administrative and emotional workload off staff and players.
ARMAGEDDON SKILL PICKER THING: https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/
message me if something there needs an update.

mansa

  • Posts: 10209
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2020, 10:17:33 PM »
I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

I'd be in favor of this or some other chance to have a redo/refund if you die within a short time window.

...

I'd submit that it should be the first 24 hours after character acceptance that karma spend could be refunded.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2020, 10:37:29 PM »
I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

I'd be in favor of this or some other chance to have a redo/refund if you die within a short time window.

...

I'd submit that it should be the first 24 hours after character acceptance that karma spend could be refunded.

Maybe from first log in if the player is busy, but these are details as we know.

I also want to address the truism we often throw around when this topic comes up that "it is alright to play a mundane character for a few months while your karma regens." What is implied here is that people will often abandon these 0 karma "throw aways" soon after their karma regens. How is that at all helpful to plots, or to increasing the population of mundanes played by players with karma?

News flash, it's not helpful, and this is one of the ways karma regen actually isn't an ideal system for increasing the number of mundanes in game. In fact, it likely just has the effect of decreasing player population as players "wait through" these "throw away" characters they are being told to play.

I'll just throw out the idea I always throw out when this topic comes up. If you want to incentivize having players with karma play zero karma mundanes, and commit to these characters so that they will be involved in plots in a long-term way, we could add a mechanism for spending karma on living characters up to your karma cap. I saw an earlier post by mansa proposing people be able to select subguilds after character generation -- it's kind of like that, and I think there are code constraints hampering both of our ideas, but it would allow a player with karma like mirk_o_loio to play a 0 karma mundane, have their karma regen, and instead of thinking "It's time to store this character and kill any plots they had so I can spend my karma," choose, "Hey, this mundane actually got involved in some cool plots, I am going to keep this character and invest my karma in them to [get some skill bump or whatever]."
ARMAGEDDON SKILL PICKER THING: https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/
message me if something there needs an update.

X-D

  • Posts: 5817
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2020, 11:58:04 PM »
I could be on board with something like, The Karma does not actually get spent until X hours played on the PC. Likely  somewhere between 12 and 24.

Other then that, Meh, I am good with the way things are.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

mirk_o_loio

  • Posts: 195
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2021, 05:48:13 PM »
I still think we should totally half these Regen timers, or give people a chance of refund if the char dies within a certain time frame.
Quote
Tek's Balls - See Utep's teeth.



If life gives you lemons, open a lemonade stand untill you make millions, invest into weapons and go to war.

Barsook

  • Posts: 8699
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2021, 06:15:47 PM »
I still think we should totally half these Regen timers, or give people a chance of refund if the char dies within a certain time frame.

Refund, but I can see abuse.

maxid

  • Posts: 740
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2021, 06:24:15 PM »
Mansa's strange decision to pepper his post with links to the tv tropes website or whatever aside, halving the karma regen (or removing basic subguilds and just making them all ESGs) would go a long way toward making the game more fun and approachable to people who haven't been playing since 1999 or whatever.

Arguments about 'power creep' completely miss the point that if you app your first Touched and get instagibbed or fuck up and cast a spell somewhere you can't (which is not always obvious, even for a gemmed), then you have to wait a month to even have a regular mundane character because of the absolutely terrible idea to make ESGs karma-locked (even if they don't -spend- the karma.) 

ShaiHulud

  • Posts: 336
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2021, 10:50:54 PM »
Happened to me. So, I made up a non-karma character. (which I do without a timer on me)
That character turned out to be a great role, and even changed the game a little. I say, work with what you have, because it can be great if you invest.
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God? -Muad'Dib

So let's all go focus on our own roleplay before anyone picks up a stone to throw. -Sanvean

creeper386

  • Posts: 2665
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2021, 12:13:56 AM »
I'm not really a big fan of the karma regen system. But then again even when I had karma and it didn't regen I played like 3 mages and a half giant once? Maybe a delf or two out of 30+ characters. So maybe the normal player just really used to like spamming karma? I don't know.

I've said it before and one, I'd rather let the karma system just be trust in players. If they continue to only roll mages or x or whatever and seem to just be reusing OOC knowledge in a back to back basis, dock karma. But occasionally a character concept may come up during a character that you just spent karma on. If you die early or what ever I don't see it really being an issue. Say playing mage after your mul or what have you.


At the most see a cool down based on the race and class. I think the same issue could come into play if everyone continues rolling x role regardless of it's karma or not honestly.
21sters Unite!

Harmless

  • Posts: 2891
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2021, 09:40:13 AM »
I am really a fan of the karma regen system. Thanks so much to staff for that.

I am a huge fan also of the (no cost for mundane subguild) idea. This change was what brought balance to the karma system.

I am fine with karma limiting half giants and muls somewhat too. There are plenty of those and they are extremely powerful and almost always long lived (moreso the half giants which is proper). Have never felt like the karma regen change made them too rare.

Continue to use this system to limit, somewhat, the supernatural. Make us be more careful. I love it. It has never made me like the game less. In my opinion, no changes needed to karma regen
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 09:42:58 AM by Harmless »
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Dakota

  • Posts: 1291
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2021, 11:09:49 AM »
Everyone knows it.

I don't. "Back in my day we only had 1 spec app every 6 months..." Or was it 3? I forget. And I'm not even that old school.

Frankly I think it's fine.
Czar of City Elves.

Jarvis

  • Posts: 261
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2021, 11:11:08 AM »
I am really a fan of the karma regen system. Thanks so much to staff for that.

I am a huge fan also of the (no cost for mundane subguild) idea. This change was what brought balance to the karma system.

I am fine with karma limiting half giants and muls somewhat too. There are plenty of those and they are extremely powerful and almost always long lived (moreso the half giants which is proper). Have never felt like the karma regen change made them too rare.

Continue to use this system to limit, somewhat, the supernatural. Make us be more careful. I love it. It has never made me like the game less. In my opinion, no changes needed to karma regen

This. As much as I love playing gicks. Sure, there is always the chance of getting atomized by some unexpected force very early on and that karma is down the drain, but that adds to the thrill personally. Any incentive that adds to the real danger of death in the game is pretty peachy imo.
The man puts his tongued, grotesque, translucent groin rig on over his eyes.

Fernandezj

  • Posts: 194
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2021, 11:23:22 AM »
This post reeks of veteran entitlement. I don't have any karma and only a few characters.
A bunch of us try our best to manage with the mundane subguilds a bunch of you cannot even apparently deign to play.
Stop whining, please, its very toxic.

LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 346
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2021, 12:31:05 PM »
This post reeks of veteran entitlement. I don't have any karma and only a few characters.
A bunch of us try our best to manage with the mundane subguilds a bunch of you cannot even apparently deign to play.
Stop whining, please, its very toxic.

This is kinda what I wanted to say, but couldn't form the thought into words. That and a new player doesn't get some special refund if their character dies at 5 hours. Having the karma is enough of a benefit by older player, without also giving refunds if someone's character dies earlier than they feel was fair. I've had spec apps and karma character die before I wanted to, but that's like... the game I'm playing.
Fallow Maks For New Elf Sorc ERP:
sad
some of y'all have cringy as fuck signatures to your forum posts

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13015
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2021, 03:22:55 PM »
Crazy idea: every account starts with 1 karma.  Adjust max karma to 4.  Add +1 karma requirement to all magick subclasses and current karma races.  Make dwarves, elves, and half-elves cost 1 karma.

Goals:
*Lets newbies play with the extended (mundane) subguilds.
*Makes newbies think harder (and hopefully read docs) before running a non-human.
*Makes magickers a bit rarer.
*Maybe adjusts the PC racial demographics closer to documented.

Barsook

  • Posts: 8699
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2021, 03:43:56 PM »
Would that turn of some newbies if they "forced" into reading the docs thoroughly?

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13015
Re: Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2021, 04:17:30 PM »
Newbies who play half-elves without reading the docs risk getting turned off by much much worse things.