Remove/Lower the blasted Karma regen timer. q

[mirk_o_loio]

Everyone knows it.
You just apped in your char... a krathi, whiran, whatever that needs two karma. Good! You're happy, you're full of ideas. Yoz set out to carve your name into history. But then one of the following happens.

->Drov Beetle says hi in a sandstorm with 15hrs played.
->Cavernmouth yompar decides it has to reel-lock you two hours out of the gate.
->Various other sudden, untimely deaths.

And now you're there, raging at your phone/Computer because *lol ur karma gone 1-3 months* and you have to roll up a mundane again and do the same old shit over and over again for two months, only for the same thing to happen.

I would like to suggest with this post that the Karma timer be removed/halved to reduce the amount of pure, unrelenting rage our players go trough when this shit happens.

[Narf]

I feel like these suggestions would be more persuasive if they included proposals that would deal with the resultant increase in magic users, or at least provided a persuasive argument why such a thing wouldn't be an issue.

[mirk_o_loio]

A few more gicks around would not hurt anyone.
With the current setting all gicks you have are either:
->Twinking in their apartment/hideout because fuck waiting 1-3 months if I get seen/killt
->Dead.
->Out in the sands hunting and doing shit like a normal person, waiting for the above to happen.

[mirk_o_loio]

I might want to add: We're not only talking witches.

Half giants, delves, muls also exist.

[Kyviantre]

The amount of magickers, muls, giants and delves seems about right imho.  Or at least, there are a few 'staples' of each, and a constant ebb and flow of fresh ones (some that become staples, some don't).

Yes, it is frustrating to get deaded, but we don't really need power creep.  And there is always special apps.

It is good to encourage people to make mundanes - although I will agree, more carrot would be nice (in addition to this stick).

[Dar]

Everyone knows it.
You just apped in your char... a krathi, whiran, whatever that needs two karma. Good! You're happy, you're full of ideas. Yoz set out to carve your name into history. But then one of the following happens.

->Drov Beetle says hi in a sandstorm with 15hrs played.
->Cavernmouth yompar decides it has to reel-lock you two hours out of the gate.
->Various other sudden, untimely deaths.

And now you're there, raging at your phone/Computer because *lol ur karma gone 1-3 months* and you have to roll up a mundane again and do the same old shit over and over again for two months, only for the same thing to happen.

I would like to suggest with this post that the Karma timer be removed/halved to reduce the amount of pure, unrelenting rage our players go trough when this shit happens.

Forgive me, but I disagree with you.  Playing a mundane is not a bad thing. Even if you consider them a throw away and do not plan to keep it beyond a month, or two.

[Veselka]

I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

[mansa]

I've always been a big advocate for spendable karma.

2010 - Spendable Karma
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38144.0.html

2007 - Regen Karma
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.msg295715.html#msg295715

In fact - that whole thread is what I've lived through in the game, and it's a period of the game I never want to experience again.
( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html )



The reason why spendable karma was implemented was to combat power creep.

Every single magicker that gets created has the potential to be on another power level than every non-magicker player.  At some point, if enough magickers gather together, the intended play of these types of characters have massive world-changing impacts.  It's no longer about who stole from whom, who can beat whom in a sparring match, or who can gather what material and bring it back into the city to sell.  They trivialize the game difficulty, specially when dealing with player-vs-player events.


The intent of the karma spend system is to automate the act of telling the playerbase, "No, you cannot get what you want.  The game will go on without your idea today.  Try again at a later date."   I mean, who among the staff actually like telling the players, 'This super amazing character application will be world changing and blow my mind, but we have too many in game so you have to wait, denied."  It's easier to just automate rejection.

[triste]

I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

I'd be in favor of this or some other chance to have a redo/refund if you die within a short time window.

I'm a Rawlsian and I hate imagining situations like "[1] New player submits a special app Whiran Touched, [2] New player waits 39 days for said app to be approved, [3] New Player dies as a result of their first spell cast because they didn't know any better [4] New player quits."

Nearly every player in a situation like this with human emotions will submit some request or another, and have a hit-or-miss verdict granting amnesty. If anything an automation like this would take some administrative and emotional workload off staff and players.

[mansa]

I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

I'd be in favor of this or some other chance to have a redo/refund if you die within a short time window.

...

I'd submit that it should be the first 24 hours after character acceptance that karma spend could be refunded.

[triste]

I could see if it's under like...5 hours played or something, it regens quicker.

Otherwise I am happy having fewer 'specials' running around. There's already an abundance IG.

I'd be in favor of this or some other chance to have a redo/refund if you die within a short time window.

...

I'd submit that it should be the first 24 hours after character acceptance that karma spend could be refunded.

Maybe from first log in if the player is busy, but these are details as we know.

I also want to address the truism we often throw around when this topic comes up that "it is alright to play a mundane character for a few months while your karma regens." What is implied here is that people will often abandon these 0 karma "throw aways" soon after their karma regens. How is that at all helpful to plots, or to increasing the population of mundanes played by players with karma?

News flash, it's not helpful, and this is one of the ways karma regen actually isn't an ideal system for increasing the number of mundanes in game. In fact, it likely just has the effect of decreasing player population as players "wait through" these "throw away" characters they are being told to play.

I'll just throw out the idea I always throw out when this topic comes up. If you want to incentivize having players with karma play zero karma mundanes, and commit to these characters so that they will be involved in plots in a long-term way, we could add a mechanism for spending karma on living characters up to your karma cap. I saw an earlier post by mansa proposing people be able to select subguilds after character generation -- it's kind of like that, and I think there are code constraints hampering both of our ideas, but it would allow a player with karma like mirk_o_loio to play a 0 karma mundane, have their karma regen, and instead of thinking "It's time to store this character and kill any plots they had so I can spend my karma," choose, "Hey, this mundane actually got involved in some cool plots, I am going to keep this character and invest my karma in them to [get some skill bump or whatever]."

[X-D]

I could be on board with something like, The Karma does not actually get spent until X hours played on the PC. Likely  somewhere between 12 and 24.

Other then that, Meh, I am good with the way things are.

[mirk_o_loio]

I still think we should totally half these Regen timers, or give people a chance of refund if the char dies within a certain time frame.

[Barsook]

I still think we should totally half these Regen timers, or give people a chance of refund if the char dies within a certain time frame.

Refund, but I can see abuse.

[maxid]

Mansa's strange decision to pepper his post with links to the tv tropes website or whatever aside, halving the karma regen (or removing basic subguilds and just making them all ESGs) would go a long way toward making the game more fun and approachable to people who haven't been playing since 1999 or whatever.

Arguments about 'power creep' completely miss the point that if you app your first Touched and get instagibbed or fuck up and cast a spell somewhere you can't (which is not always obvious, even for a gemmed), then you have to wait a month to even have a regular mundane character because of the absolutely terrible idea to make ESGs karma-locked (even if they don't -spend- the karma.) 

[ShaiHulud]

Happened to me. So, I made up a non-karma character. (which I do without a timer on me)
That character turned out to be a great role, and even changed the game a little. I say, work with what you have, because it can be great if you invest.

[creeper386]

I'm not really a big fan of the karma regen system. But then again even when I had karma and it didn't regen I played like 3 mages and a half giant once? Maybe a delf or two out of 30+ characters. So maybe the normal player just really used to like spamming karma? I don't know.

I've said it before and one, I'd rather let the karma system just be trust in players. If they continue to only roll mages or x or whatever and seem to just be reusing OOC knowledge in a back to back basis, dock karma. But occasionally a character concept may come up during a character that you just spent karma on. If you die early or what ever I don't see it really being an issue. Say playing mage after your mul or what have you.


At the most see a cool down based on the race and class. I think the same issue could come into play if everyone continues rolling x role regardless of it's karma or not honestly.

[Harmless]

I am really a fan of the karma regen system. Thanks so much to staff for that.

I am a huge fan also of the (no cost for mundane subguild) idea. This change was what brought balance to the karma system.

I am fine with karma limiting half giants and muls somewhat too. There are plenty of those and they are extremely powerful and almost always long lived (moreso the half giants which is proper). Have never felt like the karma regen change made them too rare.

Continue to use this system to limit, somewhat, the supernatural. Make us be more careful. I love it. It has never made me like the game less. In my opinion, no changes needed to karma regen

[Dakota]

Everyone knows it.

I don't. "Back in my day we only had 1 spec app every 6 months..." Or was it 3? I forget. And I'm not even that old school.

Frankly I think it's fine.

[Jarvis]

I am really a fan of the karma regen system. Thanks so much to staff for that.

I am a huge fan also of the (no cost for mundane subguild) idea. This change was what brought balance to the karma system.

I am fine with karma limiting half giants and muls somewhat too. There are plenty of those and they are extremely powerful and almost always long lived (moreso the half giants which is proper). Have never felt like the karma regen change made them too rare.

Continue to use this system to limit, somewhat, the supernatural. Make us be more careful. I love it. It has never made me like the game less. In my opinion, no changes needed to karma regen

This. As much as I love playing gicks. Sure, there is always the chance of getting atomized by some unexpected force very early on and that karma is down the drain, but that adds to the thrill personally. Any incentive that adds to the real danger of death in the game is pretty peachy imo.

[Fernandezj]

This post reeks of veteran entitlement. I don't have any karma and only a few characters.
A bunch of us try our best to manage with the mundane subguilds a bunch of you cannot even apparently deign to play.
Stop whining, please, its very toxic.

[LindseyBalboa]

This post reeks of veteran entitlement. I don't have any karma and only a few characters.
A bunch of us try our best to manage with the mundane subguilds a bunch of you cannot even apparently deign to play.
Stop whining, please, its very toxic.

This is kinda what I wanted to say, but couldn't form the thought into words. That and a new player doesn't get some special refund if their character dies at 5 hours. Having the karma is enough of a benefit by older player, without also giving refunds if someone's character dies earlier than they feel was fair. I've had spec apps and karma character die before I wanted to, but that's like... the game I'm playing.

[Marauder Moe]

Crazy idea: every account starts with 1 karma.  Adjust max karma to 4.  Add +1 karma requirement to all magick subclasses and current karma races.  Make dwarves, elves, and half-elves cost 1 karma.

Goals:
*Lets newbies play with the extended (mundane) subguilds.
*Makes newbies think harder (and hopefully read docs) before running a non-human.
*Makes magickers a bit rarer.
*Maybe adjusts the PC racial demographics closer to documented.

[Barsook]

Would that turn of some newbies if they "forced" into reading the docs thoroughly?

[Marauder Moe]

Newbies who play half-elves without reading the docs risk getting turned off by much much worse things.

[gotdamnmiracle]

After climbing to a comfortable place in the Karma ladder, I think we should do away with it and opt for direct application or rolecall for all the karma situations. It would comfortably keep certain clans stocked and prevent everyone running around as a secret magick user. Either the only thing that should require karma is the extended subguilds or they should just replace subguilds because none of them are gamebreaking by any means.

I spent roughly three years playing before I realized I should be trying to pin up goodboy points if I wanted to play anything other than Joe Blow. Proof that new players will be so lost in the sauce of the learning curve karma will fall by the wayside.

[Lotion]

It would be neat if the karma timer operated on a combination of time played and time since last karma regen.
As someone with literally no experience spending karma I think ~five days played would be fair to regen a point of karma and then also reset the karma regen timer.

[SpyGuy]

Crazy idea: every account starts with 1 karma.  Adjust max karma to 4.  Add +1 karma requirement to all magick subclasses and current karma races.  Make dwarves, elves, and half-elves cost 1 karma.

Goals:
*Lets newbies play with the extended (mundane) subguilds.
*Makes newbies think harder (and hopefully read docs) before running a non-human.
*Makes magickers a bit rarer.
*Maybe adjusts the PC racial demographics closer to documented.

I like it. Also shows that playing non-human races is a matter of baseline trust in your RP too.

[Harmless]

This "entitled veteran" has played 10+ years. Karma one is something I earned extremely quickly, far quick enough not to have felt bad. Special apps empowered me on the few times I needed 2 karma for stuff. Sittin at 2 karma after 10 years and have been here at 2 for a long time. I ain't getting and I am not getting karma 3 unless I grind out some annoying leadership roles, but fuck that. Leading you people is a tremendous pain in the ass, I would never ruin my game experience by making it into a job so I will stay at 2 karma indefinitely and I am fine with that too.

I don't care about karma except that years and years ago, I got enough to have access to whatever I need and have been sitting at that balance ever since.

If I wanted I could start ranting and raving about how unfair it is for the game/staff to require me to lead to get max karma but I won't because I know how utterly entitled THAT would sound like, when there are people with less. Therefore, just enjoy all the roles you have and learn and you will get to middling karma like mine in no time. Hell, everyone here bitching about entitlement is prolly gonna have more karma than me in ONE YEAR, so pfffft.


Edited to add: the idea to just open up all ESG to people by adjusting the karma scale to 4 as Moe suggests above and setting the default karma to 1 is fine by me also

[Barsook]

Well said, Harmless. I once cared for karma and wanted karma walled roles but I learned that they are not for me. Two points is enough for me.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Crazy idea: every account starts with 1 karma.  Adjust max karma to 4.  Add +1 karma requirement to all magick subclasses and current karma races.  Make dwarves, elves, and half-elves cost 1 karma.

Goals:
*Lets newbies play with the extended (mundane) subguilds.
*Makes newbies think harder (and hopefully read docs) before running a non-human.
*Makes magickers a bit rarer.
*Maybe adjusts the PC racial demographics closer to documented.

I like it. Also shows that playing non-human races is a matter of baseline trust in your RP too.

I don't mind this. Having that extra karma point would also allow a player who's terrible to be punished without being banned. And yeah, having the extended sub guilds available to everyone bothers me not at all.

[gotdamnmiracle]

... how unfair it is for the game/staff to require me to lead to get max karma

Is that written down anywhere? I recall there being seven karma categories and leadership being only one of those 7. You could easily pick up some of the others to be recognized. For example, I'm pretty certain I've never gotten the "understanding of Magick" karma.

[Narf]

... how unfair it is for the game/staff to require me to lead to get max karma

Is that written down anywhere? I recall there being seven karma categories and leadership being only one of those 7. You could easily pick up some of the others to be recognized. For example, I'm pretty certain I've never gotten the "understanding of Magick" karma.

I've never apped a role, leadership or otherwise.
I've never played a magic user since karma came into existence.
I've never been on staff in any capacity.

I have 3 karma.

It is possibly, but I will grant it was pretty difficult.

[Kyviantre]

As a minor aside...I hate playing humans on games.  I play them on Arm (because there are perks!), but when I looked into Arm, being able to play non-human was the draw.  So I app'd a breed after a cursory skim of the docs.  Was it a good breed, nope!  But would I have bothered if I HAD to play human?  Also no.  I have passed over countless games that only had humans/newbie options were limited to humans.

So...if you push non-humans to 1 karma and give everyone a point, I don't mind (or care...the one time I was torn between a subguild and an extended subguild, and so looked into it, the subguild had more perks to the point that I wondered why anyone would pick the ESG!).

But don't price them out of newbie reach entirely...just in case that comes up later in this thread.

Thanks for reading my PSA

[Shaydee]

I only have one karma and honestly where I am at is good for me right now. I'm not sure I'll ever play a leadership role, it's just not something I think I'd be good at, and I'm okay with that. I honestly care more about having access to the extended subguilds, not even looking at any type of magick subclass yet. Some of the non-magick extended subguilds look awesome! But I'm pretty basic, and mostly end up playing basic vanilla non-karma costing characters. I do my best with what I got 

Which ultimately may not be all that great, but I'm trying and I'm having fun, which I think is the most important thing?

[Dakota]

This post reeks of veteran entitlement. I don't have any karma and only a few characters.
A bunch of us try our best to manage with the mundane subguilds a bunch of you cannot even apparently deign to play.
Stop whining, please, its very toxic.

Whose whining? And the best PCs are mundanes. I know. My best/most successful PC was mundane playing on hard mode.

[SpyGuy]

Which ultimately may not be all that great, but I'm trying and I'm having fun, which I think is the most important thing?

Yup.  Having fun, that's what it's all about.    


Also I agree with Dakota.   Being a magicker doesn't make for a better story.

[DesertT]

My longest lived character to date was a karma 0 Laborer - Linguist.

A lotta good times and interactions with that character.

I wasn't even close to ready when his story ended.

~78 days played as I recall.

[Dakota]

Which ultimately may not be all that great, but I'm trying and I'm having fun, which I think is the most important thing?

Yup.  Having fun, that's what it's all about.    


Also I agree with Dakota.   Being a magicker doesn't make for a better story.

I'd even go further and say it tends to make it worse b/c you're beholden to a LOT of RP handcuffs, code stuff, and way more limits. Now a few (half?) of those limits are gone via the class revamp, but still.

In effect, you're kinda boned if you're a magicker if you compare what opportunities a fresh mundane has.

[Shaydee]

My longest lived character to date was a karma 0 Laborer - Linguist.

A lotta good times and interactions with that character.

I wasn't even close to ready when his story ended.

~78 days played as I recall.

Right? My longest lived was a miscreant linguist and to top it off, one of her stats was POOR. But it was a great time. I mean I was no where near that length of time played, but still.

Honestly I'm still not over her story being cut short  .


Point being though, non-karma characters can be tons of fun, I think it's all about one's mindset.

[Riev]

I'm sure its been mentioned, but you can also use karma to give bumps to your starting skills.

Its entirely possible to play a "mundane" character that uses 3 karma because you aren't interested in spending 10d played trying to get your slashing up.

Its not just about playing magickers back to back.

[Veselka]

I'm sure its been mentioned, but you can also use karma to give bumps to your starting skills.

Its entirely possible to play a "mundane" character that uses 3 karma because you aren't interested in spending 10d played trying to get your slashing up.

Its not just about playing magickers back to back.

I believe you can use a special application for this, not karma, per se.

[mansa]

I'm sure its been mentioned, but you can also use karma to give bumps to your starting skills.

Its entirely possible to play a "mundane" character that uses 3 karma because you aren't interested in spending 10d played trying to get your slashing up.

Its not just about playing magickers back to back.

I believe you can use a special application for this, not karma, per se.

It's once every 30 days, and it's a Ext.Subguild / Skill Bump Spec. App. in the request tool.  Though it does point to https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications for more details.

[Harmless]

Okay I checked my last account notes from years ago and actually the kind staffer mentioned I can also do regular communication/reports as a non leader to get to the next karma level.

I will continue to just file reports when I can and we will see but I am not stressing about it.

Anyway i am still not upset at all at this karma system, that was my point

[Wedi]

I believe the karma timer should be set up like so:

I have 3 Karma:
1. I make a Whiran Tempest and die after 1 day played
   - Whiran Tempest option is gone for 90 days
2. I can make the other 3/2/1 karma options.

The end.

[Dan]

I believe the karma timer should be set up like so:

I have 3 Karma:
1. I make a Whiran Tempest and die after 1 day played
   - Whiran Tempest option is gone for 90 days
2. I can make the other 3/2/1 karma options.

The end.

Interesting take.  I like it.

[Alesan]

I believe the karma timer should be set up like so:

I have 3 Karma:
1. I make a Whiran Tempest and die after 1 day played
   - Whiran Tempest option is gone for 90 days
2. I can make the other 3/2/1 karma options.

The end.

Interesting take.  I like it.

I prefer the idea of reworking the system so that you simply cannot play the same character types back to back. I know that is not an appealing option for some players, but I feel like it would lessen the idea that the game feels overcrowded with certain character types.

[Cordon]

Time given to the karma regen adds depth to the balance needed to get the most out of Arm.

[X-D]

After giving this more consideration...I think that ALL karma should regen after 30 days.

Spent 1 spent 3...30 days, good to go. I do not see as that hurts anything and I think it overall helps. Most anybody I know, if they spend 3 karma and that PC dies 4 days later...they are perfectly willing to not play for 90 days...this I think is actually bad for the game.

Even myself...(it has never happened) But if I lost a high karma PC in a few days...mech warrior online for two to three months NP...If I come back at all.

In short 1 karma regen per month is bad for the game world.

[creeper386]

I believe the karma timer should be set up like so:

I have 3 Karma:
1. I make a Whiran Tempest and die after 1 day played
   - Whiran Tempest option is gone for 90 days
2. I can make the other 3/2/1 karma options.

The end.

This is my favorite option. Even if it was, 3 karma gicks were off the table for 90 days. To prevent someone from just rotating through the 3-karma magickers. But still lets them app a mul if they really want.

But I personally think that if people are abusing their karma to a degree that caused these timers to exist ... Maybe they shouldn't have had the karma in the first place.

[Halcyon]

This post reeks of veteran entitlement. I don't have any karma and only a few characters.
A bunch of us try our best to manage with the mundane subguilds a bunch of you cannot even apparently deign to play.
Stop whining, please, its very toxic.

Respectfully, I've played almost 200 0 karma pcs.   I dont play "cleanly" some days, and have had runs of losing karma pcs on day 2.

I support lowering or removing the karma timer.  Is the game served by veterans not playing, or avoiding most risks until their timer is up?

[triste]

I support lowering or removing the karma timer.  Is the game served by veterans not playing, or avoiding most risks until their timer is up?

It's not.

But just an ironic side note that my only character to have any lasting change in this game in the past two years was a 0 karma throwaway comic relief character I had while waiting for karma to regen, so this game is still worth playing while karma regenerates.

But otherwise I would love to see this system reconsidered, I would love more context on why the system was put in place. Were there too many magickers running around? Seems like there are still a ton, they are just more cautious. Were people suiciding for good stats? Well that's really more of an individual player problem and I don't see why everyone should be punished. Just curious to see if this karma regen system fixed what it set out to fix and I am not sure it has.

If we want a system that increases the number of mundanes and increases the amount of time people play as a certain character: allow people to spend karma on living characters.

New players often make the mistake of getting karma on a great character and over-eagerly storing that great character to spend karma. This hurts plots and roleplaying. If it were possible to spend karma on existing characters to get a new skill or skill bump, we would stop being hurt by the pattern of people storing when they get karma and the whole "non-mundane elitism" concept would be obliterated. We would see more mundane concepts and this proposal seems like an unequivocal "win" in solving this problem (codebase permitting).

Last sidenote for Fernandezj -- please don't call veterans "toxic" and "entitled" one post as someone who has "only had a few characters" and proceed to post in a thread asking for veteran opinions like a veteran the next month. I am not asking that you make up your mind as to whether you are a veteran or a new player (the facts make this evident), I am asking you and everyone to be RESPECTFUL.

[SpyGuy]

Just a +1 on more ways to spend karma that aren't on a magicker or niche race.   Special apps are great but it'd be really nice for a character to be able to grow and pick up a new skill after they've been around forever by spending some karma.  (Within limits of course)

[Maso]

If we want a system that increases the number of mundanes and increases the amount of time people play as a certain character: allow people to spend karma on living characters.

This would be so freaking cool. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wish like hell this was a thing. Ratio? I dunno ...

Maybe it costs three karma to add a skill, with a cap of advanced. Three karma later, if you bump it again, you get a cap of low master. Maybe you can't bump it past low master, to preserve high master for people who created the character with that skill.

Or, maybe one karma gets you apprentice, two gets you journeyman, and three gets you advanced. And then, to get low master, you spend three again. That way you can kind of just branch out, and any new skill requires a great deal of time to become really good at.

[Maso]

I wish like hell this was a thing. Ratio? I dunno ...

Maybe it costs three karma to add a skill, with a cap of advanced. Three karma later, if you bump it again, you get a cap of low master. Maybe you can't bump it past low master, to preserve high master for people who created the character with that skill.

Or, maybe one karma gets you apprentice, two gets you journeyman, and three gets you advanced. And then, to get low master, you spend three again. That way you can kind of just branch out, and any new skill requires a great deal of time to become really good at.

6 months to add a new skill to low master seems...legit. I think maybe it should depend a tiny bit on the skill, some are infinitely more valuable/powerful. E.g. if someone want to master floristry or basketweaving...don't make them wait 6 months...they probably want it for RP reasons...

[SpyGuy]

I spent way too long thinking about this today buuuuut....

I'd say give players the option after 2 ic years (~3 RL months).  Then the PC has to wait another 3 months to do it again.  All changes must be backed by RP and be logical, your nobles aide probably shouldn't learn chopping weapons if you've never held an axe. They can spend a certain max amount of karma total on such upgrades.  Let's say five max so that long lived PCs don't suddenly get all the skills. 

1 karma : buy a new utility or crafting skill with a max of journeyman or advance the cap of an existing skill up one step.

2 karma:  buy a new combat or weapon skill to apprentice or advance the cap by one step.

And if there was a max of say 5 karma being spent this way I'd also say a karma role should deduct from that.  So a 2 karma mage could only spend 3 karma total on improving their PC.  This is partly to make mundanes more attractive. 

Something like this would be amazing, have RP benefits, encourage long lived PCs and hopefully not be a burden on staff.   One can dream.

[Maso]

I spent way too long thinking about this today buuuuut....

I'd say give players the option after 2 ic years (~3 RL months).  Then the PC has to wait another 3 months to do it again.  All changes must be backed by RP and be logical, your nobles aide probably shouldn't learn chopping weapons if you've never held an axe. They can spend a certain max amount of karma total on such upgrades.  Let's say five max so that long lived PCs don't suddenly get all the skills. 

1 karma : buy a new utility or crafting skill with a max of journeyman or advance the cap of an existing skill up one step.

2 karma:  buy a new combat or weapon skill to apprentice or advance the cap by one step.

And if there was a max of say 5 karma being spent this way I'd also say a karma role should deduct from that.  So a 2 karma mage could only spend 3 karma total on improving their PC.  This is partly to make mundanes more attractive. 

Something like this would be amazing, have RP benefits, encourage long lived PCs and hopefully not be a burden on staff.   One can dream.

Yeah, that's nice.

[Riev]

I feel like we had something SIMILAR with Character Generation Points (such as being able to use 3 karma on a 0-karma mundane to raise some of your skills at character generation).

CGP no longer exists, so we don't have that functionality.

I'd be down for allowing karma expenditure on live characters. Give the people who can survive the 3-karma regeneration time a little something extra, if they want it, rather than the feeling of "sitting on karma".

Conversely, however, it might cause more 'safe-play' from people who know they don't NEED to go do anything dangerous if, in a RL month, they can just request to have their slashing upped again.

[triste]

I want to be clear when I first proposed this idea I meant for spending karma, up to the cap. Therefore you couldn't have a mul you also spent 5 karma to boost the slashing of. It's more that you can have a mundane who gets promoted to Sergeant who you then can make fancy by spending karma on as your karma regenerates. This would keep things fair and avoid these "edge cases" you are anticipating. It would serve to keep mundanes in game as worthwhile concepts (our main goal) without messing up anything else.

Glad y'all like the idea generally speaking though!

[creeper386]

I think if this was for giving you a cap, not just giving you a new skill at that level. One it'd be less powerful then just, *beep boop* "I know kung fu." It also addressed a nobles aide now having chopping. They still have to LEARN it in game. It's just a story telling mechanic.

I'd love some way to modify characters at creation and later on as well. I think there should be limits for sure. But man, imagine a long lived artisan who put in the time learning can swing a bone sword as well as any Bynner. That'd be fun to me. Probably still wouldnt' touch attack/defense hidden skills because nothing does currently.

I'd mostly love it for a skill here or there that is either missing for the character or something from that they interact with often and would make sense for them to start picking up.

[Inks]

Do not want. The less stuff that allows high karma vets to lord it over everyone the better. Play responsibly and you will nearly never run out of karma.

[Narf]

Do not want. The less stuff that allows high karma vets to lord it over everyone the better. Play responsibly and you will nearly never run out of karma.

I agree with this sentiment, but at the same time there's nothing saying that these options couldn't just be given to everyone.

Personally I remember when Karma was introduced and it was never meant as a "reward" per say. It was an expression of trust. We trust you to play these difficult things. At some point along the way it's turned into a reward, and I don't think that was the right way to go with it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh. Karma is still trust, and it has always been a reward. I don't think anything at all has changed with the concept of karma.

[triste]

Going to try and lay this out succinctly since patience for me is at a minimum.

Summary of problems to solve in this thread:
1. If you whine about karma regen, you are maybe elitist, keep the current system.
2. There aren't enough mundanes and too many gickers and half-giants and muls.
3. People doing stuff like storing "throwaways" when karma regens which kills plots.

Humans often think in terms of cost-benefit analysis and opportunity cost. If you have two or three karma, here are your options:
A. Play a 0-1 karma mundane for "the good of the game" and have up to 3 karma just sitting on the shelf unused.
B. Blow your max karma on a fancy concept like a mul and get hella pissed when your mul [does redacted] after taking 1 hp damage and [redacted redacted] mantis head.

As we can see, because of human nature, very few people are going to be virtuous and select option A because of... unspent... points!!. Thus everyone picks option B in perpetuity, causing problems 1, 2, and 3 in perpetuity. And people without karma are tired of hearing it.

Allow more ways to spend karma on mundane concepts and everybody wins.

[Alesan]

Do not want. The less stuff that allows high karma vets to lord it over everyone the better. Play responsibly and you will nearly never run out of karma.

I agree with this sentiment, but at the same time there's nothing saying that these options couldn't just be given to everyone.

Personally I remember when Karma was introduced and it was never meant as a "reward" per say. It was an expression of trust. We trust you to play these difficult things. At some point along the way it's turned into a reward, and I don't think that was the right way to go with it.

It is a reward. It was always a reward. "Here is a reward of the ability to play more powerful roles because you have done things to earn it." Is it trust too? Maybe. But at its core, it is a reward. And it's used as a reward, too.

[triste]

What Inks might be referring to is the argument a lot of people pose, that Karma is just opening doors and it shows "We trust you enough to play a ____," and that there is an intrinsic reward to playing a mundane in that it opens up promotions, and climbing ranks, etc. Therefore karma is not a reward but only a sign of trust.

It's a good argument, but people like Alesan and 7DV who see it as a reward aren't wrong either, given the traditional [and documented] definition of the word "karma."

[SpyGuy]

I'd argue the ability to spend karma on a long lived PC doesn't benefit vets.   A brand new player that's fitting in should get that first point for longevity in ~6 months.  If they somehow have a PC that lived long enough to start spending karma on learning new things then the karma system opens up to them without the urge to die/store to try a d-elf or touched.

[Dan]

Do not want. The less stuff that allows high karma vets to lord it over everyone the better. Play responsibly and you will nearly never run out of karma.

I agree with this sentiment, but at the same time there's nothing saying that these options couldn't just be given to everyone.

Personally I remember when Karma was introduced and it was never meant as a "reward" per say. It was an expression of trust. We trust you to play these difficult things. At some point along the way it's turned into a reward, and I don't think that was the right way to go with it.

It is a reward. It was always a reward. "Here is a reward of the ability to play more powerful roles because you have done things to earn it." Is it trust too? Maybe. But at its core, it is a reward. And it's used as a reward, too.

It was implemented as, and has always been a measure of trust by the staff in the player to not abuse the coded power that comes with the increased karma options, also, to play such roles realistically. It has never been just a reward. There have been plenty of people who have done things others might consider karma worthy, but they have acted in bad faith, lied, abused code, etc.

Williamson's Guide mentions it as a measure of staff trust: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56441.msg1055567.html#msg1055567

It seems to be contested some in this thread from 2016, but trust and not reward is the central theme:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50905.0.html

Thread on Karma for new players from 2018:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53814.0.html

Finally, it's straight up in the help files. It tells you there in 'help karma' that it's a measure of trust by the staff.  http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Karma

I would hope people trust the staff to adhere to that metric. If they don't believe staff are, maybe it could be part of the answer as to why that person has less karma than they feel they deserve. The trust has to go both ways.

[Narf]

Do not want. The less stuff that allows high karma vets to lord it over everyone the better. Play responsibly and you will nearly never run out of karma.

I agree with this sentiment, but at the same time there's nothing saying that these options couldn't just be given to everyone.

Personally I remember when Karma was introduced and it was never meant as a "reward" per say. It was an expression of trust. We trust you to play these difficult things. At some point along the way it's turned into a reward, and I don't think that was the right way to go with it.

It is a reward. It was always a reward. "Here is a reward of the ability to play more powerful roles because you have done things to earn it." Is it trust too? Maybe. But at its core, it is a reward. And it's used as a reward, too.

I was part of the original discussion back when karma was being implemented in the late 90's. At that time you couldn't use it for extended subguilds or skill bumps or anything other than playing a role  deemed to require a more responsible amount or rp. I know not every staff member's published statement necessarily reflects staff opinion as a whole, but there were several staffers at the time that explicitly said that the only purpose to karma was to determine a player's suitability to more difficult roles.

I would agree that such is very much not what it is today. My desire is to go back to its original purpose where karma is /only/ used to determine whether or not someone is suitable for a difficult role. As for all these benefits that people are suggesting, I'm actually in favor of them I just don't want them tied to karma. There are other ways to do it, up to and including just making them available to anyone that's doesn't have a record of specifically abusing them.

The other thing you could do is hand out specifically rewards for the behavior you want to encourage. If you want people to play mundanes, give them a free skill bump for every X hours or X times they play a mundane. Allow only common characters to earn new skills in game. Something that's attainable to a new player that doesn't know the ins and outs of the karma system, and might want to not feel left out of all these special benefits when they make their first or second character. And you can say "Oh, but they haven't earned it" but that begs the question, why do they need to jump through all these fancy hoops to earn something that's relatively minor and everyone else will have access to? Does it really make the game better?

I think it'll drastically improve the game to let the new players play with some or most of the toys that the older players get to play with.

[Halcyon]

Do not want. The less stuff that allows high karma vets to lord it over everyone the better. Play responsibly and you will nearly never run out of karma.

Responsibly = never interact with a pkilling pc?

[creeper386]

Nothing thing that I realized, one thing I don't like about spending karma is I'm already cost adverse. Mental defect of mine perhaps. Combine this with the more abstract mindsets and various code difficulties I've yet to overcome(like magick), makes me just less likely to spend karma ever.

On the other side, I know people that would just be against "leaving the karma on the table", so they'd perhaps always be spending karma. If they have a long lived character, there is a chance that "spending" karma incentivizes players to just reroll another karma character when they are done.

Don't know a ton about psychology, but do know enough that when it comes to spending things, human brains tend to get dumb. There is all sorts of fallacies we fall into that we don't really work logically around spending.

I'd still love to see the facts and reasoning around why the decision was made in the first place. As far as anyone seems to know that never was publicly discussed. one staff member mentioned seeing a player suicide and reroll a krathi three times before they got something that they liked. I assume stats? IDK. To me, that sort of behavior, should be penalized. Not adjust the whole system. That staff member said it's hard to catch ... I say if it's a big problem, maybe put in some extra tools for people to use when reviewing apps. Or some basic data on their last few characters is visible when viewing the new app. Feel like that would help prevent people from suiciding and rerolling ALL characters instead of just karma roles.


Harley

[mansa]

Nothing thing that I realized, one thing I don't like about spending karma is I'm already cost adverse. Mental defect of mine perhaps. Combine this with the more abstract mindsets and various code difficulties I've yet to overcome(like magick), makes me just less likely to spend karma ever.

On the other side, I know people that would just be against "leaving the karma on the table", so they'd perhaps always be spending karma. If they have a long lived character, there is a chance that "spending" karma incentivizes players to just reroll another karma character when they are done.

Don't know a ton about psychology, but do know enough that when it comes to spending things, human brains tend to get dumb. There is all sorts of fallacies we fall into that we don't really work logically around spending.

I'd still love to see the facts and reasoning around why the decision was made in the first place. As far as anyone seems to know that never was publicly discussed. one staff member mentioned seeing a player suicide and reroll a krathi three times before they got something that they liked. I assume stats? IDK. To me, that sort of behavior, should be penalized. Not adjust the whole system. That staff member said it's hard to catch ... I say if it's a big problem, maybe put in some extra tools for people to use when reviewing apps. Or some basic data on their last few characters is visible when viewing the new app. Feel like that would help prevent people from suiciding and rerolling ALL characters instead of just karma roles.


Harley

Original announcement:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,41934.msg634122.html#msg634122

More Details:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48281.msg852037.html#msg852037

More Details:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48618.msg862662.html#msg862662

More Details:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html


https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56336.msg1054410.html#msg1054410


"I'd still love to see the facts and reasoning around why the decision was made in the first place."

Historically, the players with sorcerer options would only play sorcerer after sorcerer after sorcerer after sorcerer after sorcerer.  And players with Whiran karma would play whiran after whiran after whiran after whiran.  This has been stated by the staff multiple times in the past.  (Here's a post from 2004 from Sanvean:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,7607.html )

[triste]

Has this been shown to fix the problem it set out to fix? Sounds like people are still playing non-mundane concepts repeatedly (due to the stupid human psychology around spending) just more cautiously or not at all while their karma regens (or while they are afraid to spend it).

Is there any point, after years of discussion, when we decide this system has actually created more pain points than the one alleged pain point it set out to fix?

[Kyviantre]

Clearly I am playing wrong...I dot back and forth between playing maxed-out (for me) karma roles and playing mundanes.  Across my last four characters (in no particular order), I've had one mundane karma-race (maxed), one touched magicker (non-karma race) (not maxed), one full magicker (non-karma race) (maxed), and one mundane with extended subguild (not maxed).  My next character is probably going to be a mundane with extended subguild, and the one after that I'm looking at another mundane.  My touched magicker was originally going to be a mundane, but the extended subguild I wanted was missing part of the juice I wanted that the regular subguild had, but the regular didn't have something I needed...so it was a bit cornering

So yes, I do like the extended subguilds, but that is because I like the option to do CCs and add new crafts into the game, more than they are 'bling'.  If I'm playing mundane, I'll take the extended subguild if it is an option.

But my point is that I don't like this idea that we're ALL either scared to use our karma OR spending the max every time.  I don't feel represented...sometimes I just like a -little- bling, on top of an otherwise simple, mundane 0-karma-race character.  And I'm sure I can't be the only one (maybe I am?).

I like the idea of being able to spend karma on living characters.  I would 100% invest heavily into that!  Even if the timers were long, and the rewards small, sometimes it is nice to give your beloved character a little polish.  That smidgen of bling of a cherry on top, and give them more zest and excitement because they are evolving with the RP you are doing...a little like being able to put in for description changes!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I legitimately pay nearly no attention to karma. I guess I would if I had none, but I play mundane after mundane after mundane ...

[Barsook]

I legitimately pay nearly no attention to karma. I guess I would if I had none, but I play mundane after mundane after mundane ...

Same. I don't care for anything but mundane humans.

[X-D]

It used to be that I would play mundane...mundane....karma....mundane...etc etc.

But now you can do both so....

Still, I don't play two in a row unless one was to die in like a week and I really wanted to try it. Has not happened, just saying that is what it would take.

Personally, I think the best option for the thread title is a "newbie period" for karma.

You make a karma pc, that karma is not spent till a certain time played, say 12-24 hours. Maybe as much as 72.

After that, it is spent but your karma regen started at the same time your PC was approved, same as now.

[LindseyBalboa]

Cut karma regen timers in half. Still takes 45 days to get 3 karma - that's plenty of RL time.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Cut karma regen timers in half. Still takes 45 days to get 3 karma - that's plenty of RL time.

I support this.

[triste]

+1 as well

Sometimes simple adjustments are best. An example of a good, recent, simple adjustment is not making mundane extended subguilds consume karma.

[DesertT]

I think the Karma regen timer is fine.

What I'd like to see though would be to allow the extended subguilds to be allowable at all times instead of ensuring someone has 1 karma in their stock.

Another idea, what if when you took a gem at chargen, it refunded you 1 karma as well?

Lastly, what if the max karma you could earn was increased to say five?  This way, if you rolled a karma 3 character and it died suddenly, you still have 2 karma to fall back on.  There would be no other perk to having 5 karma other than if your karma 2 or karma 3 character died rather suddenly, you still had a couple points in your pocket.

No, I don't have 3 karma.  And yes, I'm currently playing a karma zero character that I created while sitting on karma.    Which pretty much defeats my first suggestion, HA!

Just throwing out ideas.