0-karma subclasses are abysmal! And here's why...

[wizturbo]

Subclasses have experienced substantial power creep since they were introduced, which is the main thing in explaining the power differential.

Maybe we need to reset to zero, for mundane subclasses?

I'm not sure what you mean by reset to zero Brokkr, could you elaborate?

[wizturbo]

There's a benefit and a cost. The benefit you note. The cost is a greater sense of elitism.

1 karma is far from "elite".  Any player should be able to achieve it relatively quickly.  I think it creates a nice short term goal encouraging new players to adhere to the standards of RP set by the game and creates a sense of investment in a given game account to discourage bad behavior once you achieve it.

It's the mud equivalent of "earn an extra feat if you write up a backstory for your pen and paper rpg character".  Kind of.  That's not a perfect analogy but you get the jist.

[Armaddict]

...what about what I said is trolling?  I said that extended subs became less needed after the class revamp.  They were far more pertinent before the class revamp.  Removing them now has a far smaller impact than before, and creates sharper class definition.

I have no idea why you'd consider that trolly.

[Brokkr]

Zero.

Zip.

Nada.

Like character's in the 90's.

[betweenford]

IMO alot could be solved by either making ESG's merged with normal subguilds, or separate but cost nothing and not be gated by karma (just extra options for 0 karma players or people who USED UP all their karma). Oh, and giving Master Crafterwhatever subguilds toolmaking... and universal food forage for master chef.

Honestly though, I'm all for the second choice. Have every option available during character creation even if some feel like straight upgrades or redundant.

[wizturbo]

Oh, remove the extended subguilds all together then?  Hm...  I don't know.  The mastercrafting aspect of all this definitely is a consideration, I'm sure there are a lot of people who like those subguilds.  I think I'd rather see things remain as they are, more options > less options...  unless the extended subguilds are replaced with even more new stuff!

[Brokkr]

Uh, like characters in the 90's, for mundanes.

I.E. before subguilds existed.

[wizturbo]

Oh... no subguild at all?!  That sounds not very fun to be honest.  So many concepts rely on subguilds in my eyes.  You'd have to rework the guild system again to include more options.

[Narf]

There's a benefit and a cost. The benefit you note. The cost is a greater sense of elitism.

1 karma is far from "elite".  Any player should be able to achieve it relatively quickly.  I think it creates a nice short term goal encouraging new players to adhere to the standards of RP set by the game and creates a sense of investment in a given game account to discourage bad behavior once you achieve it.

I believe it takes about six months of investment to earn a karma. Sometimes (usually?) more. That might not seem like a large investment /after/ its been put in, but it's a pretty daunting one when you're looking down the barrel from the other side.

Try to put yourself more in a newplayer's shoes. That's really who all this is for. Old players have no strong reason to care.

[Lotion]

I just wanna play Adventurer + Slipknife or any city/criminal class + outdoorsman/wastelander

[DesertT]

I don't see an issue with the current system MINUS the fact that Roughrider doesn't have Direction Sense, Master Chef not having MasterCraft Toolmaking, and Master Tailor not having Tent Making per my post here:  http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55991.0.html

Otherwise, you can take a Laborer Linguist and join the Byn, join Leadership for a couple of clans, and have loads of fun.

I know, I just suggested Linguist.

A more fun one would be Laborer Custom Crafter.

BOOM!!

[X-D]

I don't exactly agree with Armaddict. SOME of the classes get tons of skills...but almost all of those classes lack certain important skills often supplied by the subclasses.

3 main classes lack any type of support skills at all...these pretty much require subclasses to be viable unless you really enjoy hard mode survival.

And another 3 main classes are total fails in combat, this also can be partly mitigated with subclasses.

Now as to extended subs requiring karma. I think that any subclass that does not give master in some skills OR does not give certain perks such as wilderness quit or mount taming should not be karma. Let us take outdoorsman, likely one of the best extended subs yet why is it karma, Does it get a good number of skills...Yes, are these skills to a high enough level to cause any real unbalance...No. Do they get any perks that cause unbalance...No. And the bad part is they are not even that distinct of a subclass. If I was to have made them, with the intention to require karma, it would be a distinct class fitting with the name. So, first off...No archery. They would get skinning, scan, direction sense and hunt to master. Sneak, hide, climb to advanced and possibly wilderness quit. That is it. And there you go a distinct sub well worth requiring karma.

[Hauwke]

Uh, like characters in the 90's, for mundanes.

I.E. before subguilds existed.

I think that's an absolutely awful idea. Really the nuclear option, even. No one benefits from this.

[Hauwke]

I don't exactly agree with Armaddict. SOME of the classes get tons of skills...but almost all of those classes lack certain important skills often supplied by the subclasses.

3 main classes lack any type of support skills at all...these pretty much require subclasses to be viable unless you really enjoy hard mode survival.

And another 3 main classes are total fails in combat, this also can be partly mitigated with subclasses.

Now as to extended subs requiring karma. I think that any subclass that does not give master in some skills OR does not give certain perks such as wilderness quit or mount taming should not be karma. Let us take outdoorsman, likely one of the best extended subs yet why is it karma, Does it get a good number of skills...Yes, are these skills to a high enough level to cause any real unbalance...No. Do they get any perks that cause unbalance...No. And the bad part is they are not even that distinct of a subclass. If I was to have made them, with the intention to require karma, it would be a distinct class fitting with the name. So, first off...No archery. They would get skinning, scan, direction sense and hunt to master. Sneak, hide, climb to advanced and possibly wilderness quit. That is it. And there you go a distinct sub well worth requiring karma.

No sub gets anything to master anymore, is I think my biggest gripe.

Extended subs WERE lightly overpowered when you could take burglar/slipknife and have master sneak hide and backstab atop the skills burglar got. It only improved the guild it was combined with.

Then, when the class change happened, we lost the master skills from extended subs and they were reduced to advanced, mid advanced in many cases it seems, but advanced none the less.

I'm not totally sure how we could even fix this without simply bringing standard subs to the level of extended ones and making them all 0 karma.

By my count, there are 54 sub classes in total, 31 of which require karma to access. Over half of all subclasses require you to have played a minimum amount of time AND have been approved for a karma point AND for you to have said karma point.

(NOTE: My subclass count does include the touched subs, but even not including them comes up with over half requiring karma.)

[triste]

Uh, like characters in the 90's, for mundanes.

I.E. before subguilds existed.

If this is what it takes to bring back main guild magickers...

[Dar]

Personally. I think ext. Subclasses should require having 2 karma in the bank, but not spent


Aside gating complicated roles, they are also ment to limit them. So people can't play back to back 3 karma mages, etc.

But sometimes people find it reasonable not to play a ... Month to regain ability to roll a character with ext. Subguild instead of basic subguild.

But make the wait 60 days instead of 30 and that becomes less likely. So much less, that if a player is willing to wait this long - they are barely if at all playing the game at all. In which case it's inconsequential.

The power creep is there, but is also irrelevant. If there is 'any' difference. People willing to wait before rolling a character will wait.

[mansa]

Let's get some history here:


Before the year 2000, there was only 6 mundane classes:
Warrior, Ranger, Assassin, Burglar, Pickpocket, and Merchant.

Before the year 2000, there was no crafting skills, and there were no subclasses.

When crafting skills got implemented, the basic 0 karma subclasses got created and implemented.

Historically, this was intended to round out characters with regards to their primary class.  It gave some minor combat skills, minor stealth and thievery skills, and crafting skills.

The intent was to let the character be more than their standard skillsets, and to distribute crafting skills to those who want to minor in things such as knife_making or instrument_making.


---
Extended Subclasses were mentioned Sept 2011 when they updated the Karma system.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,41934.msg633505.html#msg633505


"Essentially the special application system will now be focusing on using the skill boost area or subguild areas for altering characters.  Special applications are currently limited to guilds/races currently 3 or less above your current karma range. We'll be following through with the same philosophy, if you want to get a few skill boosts or a different subguild and don't have enough karma you will need to special app and ask for a temporary boost of said karma points."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,41933.msg633526.html#msg633526 - Sept 2011


After they went live, there was a big discussion about it:
"To those that are lamenting the fact that these all incur a reasonable cost which could exclude lower or zero karma players from creating their most desired combinations, sorry, these are not your average subguilds. They are more powerful, they have more options and they are meant either for those that have the karma to spend on them or who wish to use up one of their special application slots to have one.  The existing subguilds and guilds are still in play and you have the same access to those that you have always had.  As mentioned above, the majority of these subguilds are available via special application which will open up combinations to everyone, you just might not get to play the nilazi assassin you were dreaming of."
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,42570.msg654746.html#msg654746 - January 2012


---

Nergal started the Guild/Class revamp in 2017
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52438.msg985902.html#msg985902

They went live in June 2018
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53139.0.html

Brokkr asked for feedback on subclasses in July 2018, and did some revision of the non-magickal subclasses.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53906.0.html


---

None of the extended subclasses have any combat/stealth/thievery skills that surpass "advanced" after Brokkr revised them in 2018, but should they be lowered again to reduce the power creep?

[wizturbo]

Perhaps a wacky idea, but figured I'd share it...

   
• What if all non-magick subguilds were removed, in favor of allowing most skills to be learned up to apprentice levels by anyone?
• I don't mean having all skills on the skill list at character gen, but instead requiring a teacher at Master in the skill to teach someone in order to branch it.  It may take more than one teaching to learn the skill.

Instead of having mundane subguilds/extended subguilds, instead skill boost options could be added for each class at a variety of intervals.  For example:

   
• Enforcer Boost 1 (Costs 1 Karma; skills are boosted by a small amount)
• Enforcer Boost 2 (Costs 2 Karma; skills are boosted by a moderate amount)
• Artisan Boost 1 (Costs 1 Karma; skills are boosted by a moderate amount)
• etc

The use of Karma would then be focused on starting off further along, but without having any additional potential beyond anyone else.  A time saver, just like skill bumps used to be.


Maybe some skills would be exempt (city, wilderness versions of some skills for instance)?

[Armaddict]

3 main classes lack any type of support skills at all...these pretty much require subclasses to be viable unless you really enjoy hard mode survival.

Kinda like ye warriors of olde.  And this is kind of the point of the 'powercreep', is that the concept of viability has shifted pretty drastically.  Subguilds are still there to grant the minor support to allow those classes to do things, just not be exceptional at them.  Extended subguilds aren't needed for them to be viable...but if you're looking for a character that does 'all the things', then you choose a class that's worse at combat.

That was kind of the idea in the original mission statement for classes anyway, it's just that extended subs kind of throw a wrench in it, and we made the 'able to do things' classes too formidable in combat anyway.  So of course it feels like you aren't you viable in those roles...you have these other roles that don't actually sacrifice that much unless they're very active in PvP, which is not that big of a portion of the game anyway.  So instead, you build it more like those classes, but with higher combat skills...and you can do the same from those classes to make them more formidable in combat.  Again, this just makes the classes altogether kind of meh.  Different combinations don't -actually- increase variance that much in the current state...it all comes down to one or two skills in each archtype where all you have to ask is 'Do I plan on using that?  No?  Shift up to the next class.'  'Do I plan on using that?  Yes?  This is my class, now get this from subguilds and I basically give up nothing'.

I'm not saying that this just has to happen or the game is going to suck.  But I do think extended subs are kind of a remnant at this point from a historical problem.  Like...like...we had serpents before, and we added subguilds so that they could leap, then wings so they could fly, then we transformed them into leaping lizards, and now they just have a bunch of arms and legs like an octopus with wings trying to do everything or else they're an evolutionary setback.

Okay, that last paragraph was mostly for my own amusement.

[Kryos]

1) ESGs need a rework, not a nerf.  Nerf = bad, uplift = good for player enjoyment.  This lesson has been beaten, and beaten, and beaten home by so many games now I'm surprised people are seriously talking that way. 

2) Classes need polish and some refactoring too.  Maybe 1 or two need a touch of a refactoring 3-5 need expansion ranging from trivial to bigger.  Some I can't talk for because I never really play that style.

3) There's some shiz I want to say but I think tis a bit too technical and data scraping to be good for the GDB.

4) The best option?  Blow it up and do a tier investment system that lets each player build their own character as they want, not as handed down from on high that will never satisfy.

Longer Spiel:

I don't think the main classes are done being polished, from a gameplay and fun perspective.  There's some . . . behind the
scenes behavior I don't think is appropriate to touch on on top of some of the classes lacking skills that befit their name and/or intended role(which are different).  Newer players will look at the names and pick based on that, and not get what they want.  People with more characters under their belt will look at classes and see gaps that they don't fill out on their own for any one concept.

And then there's 1 or two that are just bonkers.  Whatever SG you pick is for the lolz.

ESG's changed, call it power creep if you want, but there's been nerfing too.  No master skills from a ESG now.  No master skinning means if you intend to do certain tasks around killing and skilling animals you HAVE to do it with an non tier 1 character.  I tried with an old style warrior/outdoorsman (with low master skin from the esg and a bonkers stat roll) and it was paiiiiinful even then.  A normal stat roll likely means 'good luck.'  You can apply this to more skills than skin, that have real, hard thresholds that ESGs won't offer.  This matters for ALL tiers and mages.  It means you can 'try' some things but you'll NEVER pull it off.  On top of this, there's some combos that can't be achieved, period, with the classes and esg as is.

I don't think the combat caps are done right, but that's a suspicion I don't have any data to confirm. (I think low tiers cap too high) Just call it a practiced eye.

What am I getting at?  The whole thing needs a polish round.  Do not pull out the nerf bat for indiscriminate bonking.  Everyone who does that regrets it.  Consider blowing up a class system and make an investment tier system based on karma for race/skills/magick/wealth/'perks'.  Want to make everyone happy?  Let them build their own characters within a uniform system.

Also, big props to everyone upstairs who are moving the game along in a good direction in general.  I've got some remarks from a game design perspective, sure, but Arm's in a much better place these days in many facets.
 

[Kryos]

To the OP's point, as the above was on the tangent.

Bullet point first:

1) The answer has always been staring us in the face, and I purposed it years and years ago.  Cooldowns ala a spec app timer.   A lockout timer based on your karma selection.  If you make a mul enforcer/whiran you can't play a mul for 3 months after death nor a whiran.  Desert elf adventurer/master weaponsmith means no desert elf or master weaponsmith for a month after death. 

Spiel

Some years back I purposed that the 8 karma system was bonkers and needed to go.  Crunch it down to 4 I said, 1 de/dwarf, 2 some gicks/hg 3 mul, 4 psion/sorc.  Lets say it met with some nay saying and discouragement.  Few years after that poof:  new karma system.  But I did not advocate a karma regeneration system. 

The karma regen system discourages risk taking, encourages absences and extended leaves, and does nothing to prevent repeat roles.  Boo, hiss.  A blocker on the selections you made for your pc after they die means you are encouraged to keep playing, taking risks isn't the end of the world nor is dying if you want to try another karma role, AND  it encourages you to try something new.  Yay, hurray!

[mansa]

The karma spend system also coded-ly enforced a limit to how many magickers a player can create in a row, which is the intent of the system.

Simply, which is to tell the players "No, you cannot play another magicker."  You cannot play what you want to play. You break the world every time you play one.



That's the whole reason why it exists.   The whole reason is to tell the players "No."   And as players, we're upset we're being told "No"!

[CodeMaster]

I'd vote for a rework, although I'm currently an interested but inactive player (so grain of salt).
 
I think extended subguilds distort what karma is actually supposed to be (and I don't think it's just supposed to be "more power").  In my view, exercising karma used to mean you'd inherit more responsibility over the story.  Primarily you got a role that required a higher standard of play.  In return, you would enjoy a character who was more strongly integrated with the gameworld.  Often this integration made the character stronger, e.g. an ability to do sorcery.  But it also often made the character weaker, e.g. she was now an escapee, a pariah, a target, or some other thoughtful restriction on her story.  This made it feel 'fair' when someone had a karma character, because they were taking the good along with the restriction.  They weren't just the beneficiary of a pat on the back; they'd demonstrated an ability to take responsibility for the story and now they were following through with a more integrated role.

I think there are too many subguilds/extended subguilds and they are robbing the main guilds of canonical-sounding names.  I'll use the sneakies as an example: "assassin", "burglar", and "pickpocket" probably shouldn't be reused any time soon, but I think they were pretty good names.  If you asked someone from another game what skills these guilds had, they probably wouldn't be far off in their guesses.  Contrast with "miscreant", "infiltrator", "pilferer".  The "pilferer" is actually a pretty middling thief, the "infiltrator" is not the best housebreaker in the group, and the "miscreant" is not the best at fighting dirty!  I sympathize with the apparent difficulty to find names for these classes, but it isn't surprising considering "rogue", "thief", "thug", "slipknife", "pickpocket", "burglar", and "assassin" have all been taken (thanks to subguilds).

Subguilds and extended subguilds could stay, but then they should be refocused, clarified, and their names should be pillaged to help rename and refine the main classes.

(edit: got interrupted and then posted without realizing I hadn't finished.  Apologies for poor editing on the first round)

[triste]

The karma regen system discourages risk taking, encourages absences and extended leaves, and does nothing to prevent repeat roles.

A clear statement of what we've all observed and what I was saying earlier. If we had full insight into playtime statistics and the motivations for players to play or not to play I can promise this would be a commonly stated factor.

I'd vote for a rework, although I'm currently an interested but inactive player (so grain of salt).
 
I think extended subguilds distort what karma is actually supposed to be (and I don't think it's just supposed to be "more power").  In my view, exercising karma used to mean you'd inherit more responsibility over the story.  Primarily you got a role that required a higher standard of play.  In return, you would enjoy a character who was more strongly integrated with the gameworld.  Often this integration made the character stronger, e.g. an ability to do sorcery.  But it also often made the character weaker, e.g. she was now an escapee, a pariah, a target, or some other thoughtful restriction on her story.  This made it feel 'fair' when someone had a karma character, because they were taking the good along with the restriction.  They weren't just the beneficiary of a pat on the back; they'd demonstrated an ability to take responsibility for the story and now they were following through with a more integrated role.

I think there are too many subguilds/extended subguilds and they are robbing the main guilds of canonical-sounding names.  I'll use the sneakies as an example: "assassin", "burglar", and "pickpocket" probably shouldn't be reused any time soon, but I think they were pretty good names.  If you asked someone from another game what skills these guilds had, they probably wouldn't be far off in their guesses.  Contrast with "miscreant", "infiltrator", "pilferer".  The "pilferer" is actually a pretty middling thief, the "infiltrator" is not the best housebreaker in the group, and the "miscreant" is not the best at fighting dirty!  I sympathize with the apparent difficulty to find names for these classes, but it isn't surprising considering "rogue", "thief", "thug", "slipknife", "pickpocket", "burglar", and "assassin" have all been taken (thanks to subguilds).

Subguilds and extended subguilds could stay, but then they should be refocused, clarified, and their names should be pillaged to help rename and refine the main classes.

(edit: got interrupted and then posted without realizing I hadn't finished.  Apologies for poor editing on the first round)

A few responses to this:
- I know it's only implied and not your main point, but I like the implication that the crime main guild rework didn't pan out in an ideal way. And it didn't, we have a lot of threads on this. A lot of people are displeased that "Miscreant" is simply the "best" of these options, and that criminal sub-guilds lost their specialization. If we rework subguilds, might as well rework guilds like these.
- Subguilds also lack specialization. I am fond of the weird subguilds: customcrafter for giving you one skill + custom crafter, hunter for giving you outdoor sneak (without the actual sneak skill) and con-artist (for giving urban sneak without the actual sneak skill). These subguilds actually feel, well, /specialized/. I think you're getting at the need for more specialization and specificity in these guilds and I agree.
- Extended subguilds definitely need a rework because some used to be 2 karma and others were just 1. So now we even got crappier extended subguilds mixed in with more overpowered ones, and... yeah, we gotta fix it.

And now I just want to dump another thought:
- Ideal solution to address all the subguild/guild grievances coming up: Point based skill buy? Is now the time? I was against this before because of my fear that it would cause a lack of specialization [suddenly all warrior types will have skinning again]. But now after realizing that a lot of these guilds are "Jack of all Trades, master of none," and prone to annoying crap like skill overlap or skills unusable by elves showing up on your skill sheet, I am now in favor. Maybe we can have some system where your main guild is more or less what we have now, but you can buy additional skills. This might also work with some issues around magickers and the trouble of shaping a character concept when you do not know what spells you will get.
- MVP solution that precisely fixes OP's problem: I am 100% in favor of Kryos's idea and like it even more than the idea I floated earlier in this thread. The core issue, by far, is karma regen. There are much more efficient ways of imposing this super fun "You cannot play what you want" rule from mansa. Kryos's idea cuts right to the chase without penalizing people who die unluckily like OP describes in the first post.

[Dar]

As far as I understand. The point buy system has one significant flaw. It's borderline impossible to introduce it with Armageddon's aged character generation code.