The Allanak Problem

[Brokkr]

A snippet of data.  Random snapshots of where folks were, summarized enough to hopefully remove IC info:

Sept 23, 5:30 pm server time
late morning Z time
Clan Space South - 3
Tribe Space - 2
Allanak - 2
Gaj - 1
Wilderness - 6
Luirs - 1
Storm's End - 4
Morins - 1
Total players - 20
No one was in an apartment.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/11
2/2
4/1


Sept 24, 11 am server time
dusk Z time
Clan Space South - 2
Tribe Space - 1
Allanak - 5
Gaj - 1
Wilderness - 1
Luirs - 2
Storm's End - 3
Storm's Eye - 2
Total Players - 17
2 PCs were in Apartments/Bedrooms in Allanak.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/11
2/2
3/1


Sept 24, 11:10 pm server time
dawn Z time
Clan Space North - 1
Clan Space South - 5
Tribe Space - 2
Allanak - 4
Gaj - 1
Wilderness - 3
Luirs - 6
Storm's End - 6
Red Storm - 3
Morins - 1
Total Players - 32
2 PCs were in apartments in Luirs.  2 PCs were in apartments in Red Storm.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/10
2/5
3/2
6/1

Sept 25, 12:20 server time
late at night Z time
Clan Space North - 3
Clan Space South - 2
Tribe Space - 2
Allanak - 6
Gaj - 3
Wilderness - 5
Luirs - 2
Storm's End - 1
1 PC was in an apartment/bedroom in Allanak.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/14
2/4
3/1

[Barsook]

Thanks, I think seeing the numbers could help us understand the problem.

[Narf]

"Too many nobles" isn't the issue. Not enough minions for the nobles is.

"Too many aides" isn't the issue. Not enough aides is.

There are leaders and aides who have been trying for the past year to push plots and plots and plots but there aren't people to get involved.

Blaming "too many leaders" is silly. They're trying to reward minions with plots but few are even trying to get involved. Some of you are complaining about having nothing to do but then also not even trying to get involved.

I speak for only myself, but after playing this game for 20 years I've found that the more you get involved with nobles the more likely your character is to get cornered in an inescapable room and killed.

After the tenth time of that happening I just kinda got sick of it OOCly. I mean it was exciting the first few times, but it has long since gotten stale.

That's honestly the only reason I avoid nobles, I don't have any others. Again, I only speak for myself here.

And it's not even that it happens that frequently, but it feels like as soon as I start dealing with the nobility I've pretty much set a timer on your character. You'll go into 10 inescapable rooms with a noble or templar and be fine, and then the 11th and bam.

To be clear, I specifically find dieing in inescapable rooms to be the problem for me, not dieing in general. I haven't had the chance to be PKed out of inescapable rooms more than a tiny handful of times (actually I can't remember any at all).

[SpyGuy]

"Too many nobles" isn't the issue. Not enough minions for the nobles is.

"Too many aides" isn't the issue. Not enough aides is.

There are leaders and aides who have been trying for the past year to push plots and plots and plots but there aren't people to get involved.

Blaming "too many leaders" is silly. They're trying to reward minions with plots but few are even trying to get involved. Some of you are complaining about having nothing to do but then also not even trying to get involved.

I want to be very clear that I'm not complaining about a lack of things to do in the game.  My current PC (my first in years) has been involved in a ton of things and easily ranks in my top 3 PCs.

Minions have always been the most important thing for a noble or really any leadership PC to have.  I know of at least one noble house that seems to be very active right now. I can't speak for the current nobles in game, they're probably all great, but it's a problem if players aren't gravitating to those support roles because nobles -need- them. My anti-noble rant is more about how I feel their role can be better filled by other sorts of high class PCs that don't have as many restrictions.

[Jihelu]

Is this the place to say I'd like more coded mundane jobs for commoners/poor people to do in Allanak.

Cause I think it would be cool and I see players do very niche roles already, so yes the question of 'who wants to be a farmer?!?!?' does have an answer, so having more down to earth ideas might intrigue some people and encourage money making ways in different ways than crafting an item that's almost bugged with how much it can pay out or killing an npc that has a 300 sid chest plate every reboot.

Summary: Add the cotton field code to Yaroch and make a farming job please it sounds cool.

[Alesan]

Maybe it sounds odd, but I think there should be more roles that are NOT tied to being a noble's minion in some form. People who want to be a noble's minion will seek it out and that's perfectly fine, but if you don't want every single Allanaki character to be somehow involved in a noble's plots, there's really not much to do.

[Is Friday]

I think the lack of logging in from casual PCs can be attributed to there being no "casual" option in Allanak. It's a self perpetuating cycle if you log in, don't have the time to get involved with a 15 hour a week plot, and also don't find anyone to engage with.

More common access for "things to do and accomplish" for the low playtime player and transient population would likely fix some of it.

[Barsook]

Maybe it sounds odd, but I think there should be more roles that are NOT tied to being a noble's minion in some form. People who want to be a noble's minion will seek it out and that's perfectly fine, but if you don't want every single Allanaki character to be somehow involved in a noble's plots, there's really not much to do.

Agreed. Tuluk did, in a way, have it with the cotton and clay picking. Allanak needs the same.

[roughneck]

There was a time where I'd say it was way too hard to be a raider, or any kind of antagonist to Allanak. The city was full of powerful and seasoned characters waiting for a chance to be a hero, and would mobilize as one the second a mere salt forager was even threatened. Now it seems to have swung the other way, it's very easy to be a raider now, and folks wanting to play a grebber, jozhal hunter, or any kind of simple simple low class PC are going to have a tougher time in the dunes close to the city than a wanted enemy of the Templarate.

I'm not saying it's better or worse, but the true outlaw experience has definitely been lost, but other things have been gained. We players get what we want, then miss what we had.

Give Borsail a deep purse and a Wyvern slaver crew. Spec app the slave crew as fighters with boosts to all their combat skills, elite warriors with authority to contract out the byn, take muls out on patrol, and capture PC's. Whoop the shit out of these outlaws and fill the Borsail pens up. Bring some balance back, people will might start enjoy playing 'Nakki grebbers again which keeps taverns full, raiding will be more dangerous and fun, and the Allanak mercenary experience will be restored.

I've always loved to play antagonists, its way too easy now! Hunt me kill me!

[Jihelu]

"I'm not saying it's better or worse, but the true outlaw experience has definitely been lost, but other things have been gained. We players get what we want, then miss what we had."

I'll agree with you here.

However at the same time, I think there is a lack of a 'criminal experience' that can be experienced in the cities. Outdoor raiding (Aka, mugging but you are on a big bug) has the benefit of: You probably live in Luir's or Redstorm and no one will ever see your Sdesc ever again, but indoor mugging basically isn't possible because when someone looks at your 7 foot tall elf and ignores your Tdesc and the fact you're covered head to toe in a disguise, they'll walk up on you in the Gaj with a Templar + 4 soldiers going "There he is M'lord".
Anyway I want Mdesc hiding gear so city characters can have more than the standard: Damn someone stole my sword, or Damn some- *Backstabbed* experiences. There's extortion and what not but you can only do that on so many people, as extortion tends to go, but I really wanna see people be able to hold a shiv up to some silk wearing fucks in the dead of night to punish the fact they are walking around alone in the bad part of town.
And have them not codedly able to do much  in the realm of knowing your sdesc, mdesc, mother's maiden name, and be able to have  you whipped and thrown into the arena.

[Lotion]

If you want good criminal roleplay join the arm of dragon. They are better thieves than most PC elves.

[triste]

The "as salty as the bottom of a bag of pretzels" joke was apropos here, but it's coming from a good place. If I were to synthesize where we're all coming from here, it is that we do not like it when plots are unfairly terminated, or never allowed to begin at all even if they fit the setting.
- A couple of people want more lackeys to advance noble plots so that their plots can go somewhere.
- Some people believe uppercrust characters end more plots than they create, but rather than asking for removal they want a refactor.
- A ton of people want to play plots and roles previously removed (hunting, farming) because they were awesome.
- A ton of people want criminals to stop stealing their plot items; people who play criminals want to stop being PKed in jail cells.

Therefore, the solution is often to add options where the only options are "Plot ends forever through [death or some other gameplay reason]."

Very, very rarely is the proposed solution to REMOVE content. The idea to close apartments in Luir's, etc, is not originating from players and is not widely supported by players. I just want to reiterate where the consensus is here before any vital appendages go on the chopping block.

Much love to people putting creative ideas out there, +1 particularly to CodeMaster, Jihelu, Narf, wizturbo and others just because they happen to be advocating for the kind of plots I personally like. But I just want to say:
- Players, let's not be too salty.
- Staff, please don't remove content and take away our toys even when we're being salty and bratty. I know taking toys away from children is sometimes the right answer and easy to do when there is a huge power differential, but we actually aren't children (for the most part, parenthesis added here due to my obsessive commitment to facts) and we can decide to leave when things are taken away. We want to grow the game, not diminish it.

[Armaddict]

If I were to synthesize where we're all coming from here, it is that we do not like it when plots are unfairly terminated, or never allowed to begin at all even if they fit the setting.

I don't know that I'd say that.  'Unfairly' is a very subjective word with shifting meanings, and generally speaking (it's even said directly on the website), 'That isn't fair!' receives little to no listening time here.  I would say that a more accurate representation of what I've seen in the thread is that plot-value has risen so high that the prospect of losing plots is too high of a cost.  Where old players may remember times where our characters were tugged every which-way by plots, for the current timeframe being drawn in a direction is so rare (in feeling, anyway) that whenever it falls flat it actually disappoints the hell out of people.

Very, very rarely is the proposed solution to REMOVE content. The idea to close apartments in Luir's, etc, is not originating from players and is not widely supported by players. I just want to reiterate where the consensus is here before any vital appendages go on the chopping block.

While I agree with removing content=bad, in this case it was the addition of content that was stated to have a serious change, and again, player posts regarding it kind of affirmed that.  Apartment removal wasn't really the topic, it was more of a streamlining the power structure of Luir's by having the powers-that-be control access to those apartments, or at least the common ones.  That actually adds content to the game, because it makes Luir's clan-centric as a living space and a hopping place for non-clannies, promoting movement and goals for both clans and indies, as long as you can make interesting clans and clans interesting.  It won't see support because as it was said, people -like- that ease of access; no one supports making their own experience harder or more remote without a bigger picture in mind.

Which still isn't to say that it's something that should be done, but narrowing it down to a bad idea because of people reacting to personal preference doesn't always encompass good for the game.  Overall, I do like this discussion.  It's one of the most entertaining/insightful/easy-to-engage in discussions that I can engage in from afar, which generally just keeps my interest in return piqued even if my barriers are still in place.

[Spiderman]

I am going to agree that there never seems to be enough minion caliber pcs in Allanak, which is the root of the issue.  Minions also are wonderful go-betweens for GMH pcs, who show up in Allanak like a groundhog on groundhog day, "Oops, he saw His Shadow, and had to retreat back to Luir's for six more months of silence."  More minion possibilities gives everyone more people to collude with and against in terms of not only engaging social peers in more active plots, but against those higher and lower.  Everyone loves acting like they are running a game on a potential enemy.  So, point of this part of my post is very much an endorsement of removing "clan caps" and encourage people to go wild, hiring up the playerbase.  We need more Aides, Students, Bodyguards (yes I said it).  All of this gets the murder, corruption and betrayal going into higher gear.

There are things like cotton picking in Allanak, none of them are sexy.  Dung shoveling, salt mining, obsidian mining are all ample opportunities to make decent money in a way that fits the city thematically.  They are just not very sexy.  If there was some means of "middle class" sexy in Allanak, it might be a draw.  Like that shop in Red Storm that encourages every subclass in the Village to have tailoring.  Why not place a couple of these everyman shops in Allanak buying up the goods that flood the market:  nipple rings, chests, random silk dresses?  Or something more specific, but something geared toward making Allanak just a little bit more friendly to the low-effort crafter type who just wants to achieve.

Nenyuk:  Now this one might cause some shaken fists or some high fives...there's a decent little tax that gets levied per deposit on people.  Why not make those who are not GMH or Highborn servant take a monthly hit on their bank accounts, to account for letting vast piles of coin lie fallow in the bank?  City takes a piece, Nenyuk takes a piece, and a lot of that redundant, massive pile of cash gets wiped out virtually.  You don't like it?  Stash your money in your backpack (Yay thieves) or in your apartment (Yay other kind of thieves), and run the risk of having it vanish?  Make the coins something that are use or lose, rather than being amassed and hoarded.  Make the tax rate higher in Luirs than in Allanak, encouraging people to invest in the...biggest market in the known world?  Tricky, but effective, I think.

I've said it before, so may as well reiterate, dedicated GMH rep in Allanak for all the playable Houses.  Having done the GMH thing, life is a lot, lot easier when you don't have to juggle Templars and the Council.  You're ultimately not going to give part of it its due, and will just spin your wheels.  And that's not fun for anyone.  Have all production done in one location, and that means they have to move product to the outliers, giving the Byn something to do as well.  As such, I'd even go so far as to say turn the GMH Council into the commoner version of the Nak Senate.  Have the npcs give them baseline agenda to run around trying to fix for a RL month, review the efforts and make the change that way.  Rather than trying to have four people work four schedules to make decisions that should be over their paygrade anyhow.  Just a thought there.  That's not "Allanak's Problem".

Fewer Noble Houses Open, More Opportunities in them:  Keep three open, give them all incentive to work with/against each other on Senate level goals and agendas, let the low ranked Highborn fight for scraps and recognition, in ways that can be determined with an attaboy or execution, after a period of time.  Open-ended, goal focused, story driven and glass ceiling respecting plot driving.  As such, allow those Noble Houses the ability to hire unlimited Whatsits, Scorpions, Wyverns, allow minions to get in, work the agenda and achieve in line with the House Senator's wishes.  You all succeed or fail together, punching up.

Random:  Remove all the known spawn points for the usual critters and beasts inside and around Allanak, shake them up and then put them in places that make sense thematically, but require a bit of looking around, so you don't know that everyone is wacking the same rooftop npcs all the time, because they can.  And then, once that's done...set up one of the things I am about to suggest:

More of those "barter" npcs, like in the Muark wagon:  A trade off of hunted goods for finished products, even if they are all low grade.  Bring in chalton hides, get better boots, whatever.  But more trades where it's barter, than stuff for coin.  Coin needs to regain some sense of value beyond just being a gigantic virtual number sitting in the Banker's hands, doing nothing.

And lastly, this one relates not to Tuluk as an enemy of the City and a great antagonistic force, but the market.  The cities have code in place where items have higher or lower values based on what is being sold.  One of the coolest things was preparing a trade run, from north to south or vice versa, where you had to be very aware of what sold best where.  Instead of "sell it no matter what".  Perhaps expanding Morins to include a larger market, maybe, but that doesn't fix Allanak.  I think Allanak just needs that counterbalance commercially, in terms of import/export being more than just "I can sell chests to the stores that buy pants?  That's awesome."

More than a couple 'sid.  But it doesn't matter, 'sid is meaningless.

[Fredd]

This could be tossed into it's own post. But one of the serious problems I see, is that one character doesn't feel much different from the next anymore.

The new classes and subclasses allow one PC to do everything. An Adventurer/mage Can have solid enough combat skills to hunt, craft, and they can do magick. Change mage to a stealth class, and now you have hunter, crafter and burglar/assassin.

The old classes allowed your next PC to feel different.

[Halcyon]

The Ocotillo Festival starts, and on a Thursday no less.  Suddenly 50 people are logged in, and there is a whole horde of mostly long lived Allanaki pcs I havent seen since the last RPT.

Something about this feels wrong.   If it isnt noble rp you arent interested?

[Barsook]

Agreed, it seem to only benefit the Leadership PC's and their minions. This also includes the Byn and Arm of the Dragon.

I feel like it gonna to be the same with the Senate RPT.

But then again, this was stated in the thread once or twice. And outside.

[Hauwke]

Pretty much every RPT benefits the Byn in some capacity. They are designed that way.

That said, it really is a joke that half of the long lived PC's only come out for a big RPT, especially since many of those people are in leadership or higher than commoner positions. You aren't a good player if you spend all day willingly logged out until something happens or your buddy on discord asks you to.

Edit: Removed a little vitriol, I was feeling a tad passionate.

[Lizzie]

I think this comes and goes in waves. Sometimes there is lots to do because whoever is playing the leader characters are really great at creating interesting and fun projects for their minions - and that attracts more minions, which propels "fun things" further. Sometimes though, the minions are already serving some other leader character, doing their own projects, and the newer leaders have no one available to serve them. So that leader flounders, and that clan is given a reputation for being boring.

It's not boring. It's just going through that stage waiting for "players who WOULD want to be in that clan's" PCs to die and bring their new PCs into the game.

Every single existing clan in the game right now could be hoppin, AND every single independent character in the game could be kept busy and entertained. But the timing never syncs up. That's the nature of a game that's played 24/7. Sometimes all the cool people are over "there" and you create a PC for it - and then that leader dies and suddenly it's not as cool as it was. Hopefully the new leader will be equally cool (or cooler) but the transition takes time.

And of course sometimes a clan will have a leader who stinks at leading a clan. Darwin's theory works well here. The really bad ones will cull themselves out eventually.

Sometimes a leader's player has to be somewhere, or was sick, or they had to evacuate from fires in the west, or was an emergency room staffer during the worst of the pandemic, and didn't have time or energy to play. So they finally show up and help to create and run a big to-do, but everyone thinks they were only interested in the game to do big to-dos.

But the playerbase as a whole needs to be more patient and durable, I feel. Yes there's a point where you cut bait and pull anchor, take your boat to another clan or part of the game. But I feel people are doing that too quickly. Or worse - they might have observed a clan floundering with one PC - their next PC shows up and they decide immediately that they won't allow their character to have any interest in joining that clan.

Well - maybe you're the reason the clan would've been so amazing. And you're failing yourself, and the game, by choosing to stay away from it.

On the OTHER hand - maybe you're the one who makes clan life difficult, but you insist on joining the same clan with new PCs over and over again. Sometimes that can suck the life out of a clan, having the same "flavor" of drama repeat itself with every new PC who shows up.

tl;dr: there are TONS of variables that go into the "why this city needs..." or "why Allanak is..." or "how can we make Allanak great again." Those variables vary with every single character approval, and every single character death. Every. Single. One.

[HortaCulture]

There is definitely something to be said for good, solid leadership PC's in various clans and how that affects the atmosphere. If I am intimidated but having fun at the same time, you are awesome and thank you very much.

Blanket kudos to people who play leadership roles that put energy and love into it. Thems roles is hard. You're the best.

[triste]

Agreed with HortaCulture: if you love 'em, send them a kudos!

Just wanted to touch on the whole "You aren't a good player if you spend all day willingly logged out," and tie that in with something others have said earlier. We need more ways for people who are busy IRL to get involved in plots in a meaningful way. Some people have proposed a psionic message inbox, or assistant leadership roles that require less time commitment. I love this game, but phrases like "You aren't a good player if you spend all day willingly logged out," and the implicit playtime requirements for a lot of roles makes my skin crawl. We lose great, intelligent players when we bully them for being busy and not logging in as much as they "should." Please invite these good people to play, even rarely, rather than shitting on people who have hobbies and obligations in addition to ArmageddonMUD. And if anything add features that make the game more playable if you only have a few hours a week or even only a few hours a month to spare.

We want more people to play, not less! If someone says "You aren't a good player" because you don't log in frequently please just ignore them, I still love you and might see you during one of the five hours I log in a month as well (because as Lizzie mentioned I am busy evacuating my friends from wildfires and shit, literally).

[Is Friday]

You all can just @ me next time, I guess.

Playtimes for leadership have a minimum requirement. Staff keep an eye on that and give leeway to RL when it comes up. Genuinely: playing a leader for a long period of time (or multiple over years) can be very draining.

I personally get a lot of fulfillment for producing content or fostering RP for other people. That's why I enjoy playing leader PCs. However, I'm not beholden to any of you. If you demand my PC's time for 4+ hour scenes, kidnap them to your secret lair, or get impatient that my PC isn't running a 1 on 1 GM session with you -- you're ludicrous. I refuse to allow my enjoyment of the role or make the game be contingent upon pleasing a bunch of (often) ungrateful players.

I'll meet the requirements set out by staff playtime wise. I'll RP well. I'll lead the clan with my PC.

But I don't work for you.

[Spiderman]

A Clan Leader's Perspective:

1.  Wandering around looking for rp and pcs spam walk to avoid you, or you visibly see them go another direction to not be in your path.
2.  You sit in a tavern, ready to settle in for a session where maybe people seek you out to find some fun, you're spotted from a distance with your npc guard, and they go elsewhere.
3.  Same situation as #2, but you take a knife to the neck within minutes of showing up.
4.  Same situation as #2 but you realize while sitting there, with your guard, you suddenly are light keys, coins, that nice knife and any packages in your belt, as all your containers are open.
5.  Same situation as #2, and people walk through, bow and walk on.  Giving you zero to work with.

Hate to say it but, let's be honest, role play sessions are a two way street.  If leaders are hard to find, it's likely because they are getting beat down by something listed above.  Not just once or twice, but some combination of all of those, literally every single time they log in.  Roleplaying a clan leader, and Friday is right, is a commitment between Staff and the Player chosen, with a time investment that is agreed upon.  It's a two way streets, you can say they suck for not seeking you out and engaging you personally, but there are an awful lot of ways (I just listed five) where the opposite is also true.

[triste]

I understand and agree with Friday, Spiderman, and staff here as this wasn't the point I was making. Separate point, but yes, I agree, some roles have playtime requirements.

But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.

[Is Friday]

But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.

Now I don't mean to speak for all leader players (past or present) but if I have a minion that I can count on for 5 hours a week -- that's a good minion to me. Just let me know when you'll be available and I'm going to put your PC to work -- productive goals that contribute to the overall plots.

IMO if you're playing a leader and you can't "use" low playtime PCs, you need to re-evaluate how you're leading your clan.