The Allanak Problem

[wizturbo]

Some observations over the last hundred plus hours since I've returned:

1). Hunting near Allanak is anemic.  With virtually every guild having combat skills worth training, there is very little opportunity to do so easily from Allanak past the "apprentice" or journeyman levels.  Play further north, have more coded hunting to do for skill gains and wealth gains.

2). Everything is codedly much more expensive in Allanak. 

3).  There is less stuff to buy in Allanak than there is in Luirs despite the bazaar in Allanak supposedly being the largest center of commerce in the world.  There's better food, drinks, spice and other sundry items in Luirs.

4).  Allanak non-clan housing is extremely insecure. 

5).  Allanak closes its gates for 33% of the day requiring you to time any excursions or risk being stuck outside in the dark bored and having to wait around.  ICLy speaking Allanak is the most powerful city state, whereas less secure places don't take this added security measure.

6).  Most of Allanak's role play is not in public, with every single clan have robust compounds that shield those players from external eyes.  Even the upper crust bar blocks most of the player base from access. 

7.). There are 5 places to congregate in Allanak (2 public taverns, 3 private clubs with restricted access by social status.


8.) Many of the above items creates the situation where there are multiple hot spots to congregate around but there are rarely enough players there to make it feel social.

There may be awesome nobles and Templar's and aides and stuff in Allanak...but you rarely see them.  I've spent 120 hours in Allanak over the last month and ive literally only seen one noble and one Templar...maybe twice.  That isn't because they aren't active, I just never see them because the game has encouraged them to be hidden away.  If you're playing a sponsored role you will be contacted to interact with these people, but otherwise you probably won't know they even exist.

Creates the situation where if you're bored you don't have any coded thing worth hunting, very often  locked inside a city and can't find anyone to interact with.  There are people around, but you don't know about it and probably couldn't interact with them even if you did know.  Time to move, or time to log off.  If not for some incredibly active, fun players accessible over the Way in the city (which took me 40 RL hours to identify and build in game relations with), I would have left Allanak myself and it's basically the core of Armageddon for me...

Not proposing solutions here, just pointing out observations.

[Fredd]

I'de like to point out that Allanaks Non-clan housing isn't as insecure as you think. There are apartments hard enough to unlock, that your basic burglar isn't getting in. They will need to essentially master the skill to get in.

Why is this important?

MOST burglars die before they hit that point. Of the ones that don't, the vast majority will be tied to The Guild.

And The Guild wont rob you if you meet certain, very easy, conditions.

That leaves  noble aides. Those people that get assasinated constantly for stupidly robbing apartments. Among other things.

[CodeMaster]

Allanak feels like the ideal place to play a degenerate, and it's where I preferred to be.

Here are things that I think hurt:
- If there are lots of players out in public doing things, it's more fun to hide and watch, spy, or steal from them.  But if there's no incentive to actually be one of those "public" players, more and more will hide or avoid hubs, and it could perpetuate as this prisoner's dilemma
- Allanak's hubs are spread out and the paths between them are spooled out and often nonintersecting (and if you were worried about becoming someone's victim along the way, you just stealth around, and add net-zero to the game while you do)
- Being a victim in Allanak is often not fun.  Being put in the dungeon is an OOC punishment; being caught by an authority figure is often an OOC punishment that can sometimes result in setbacks to your story (character death)
- Amassing wealth has become an increasingly low "content"-generating activity.  This is perhaps a problem throughout the game, but what I mean by this is that silently crafting +2000 units of profit while hidden in your apartment adds nothing to anyone's story

Here's my list:

- Move housing and/or key resources so that people are forced to cross paths more often
- Add internal checkpoints that are effectively no-hide rooms, forcing people to come out of hiding occasionally.  There are often no incentives to be visible otherwise
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
- Tie more housing to occupation; open clans up to combatant roles and force more people to join clans (which makes sense) if they want a place to stay.  But this could also mean tiny room X requires you to clean tables at the Gaj, or shovel dung at the stable.  Open up low-class clan roles for elves and half-elves, like House Jaal sewer cleaners.  Players obviously love apartments, but make them pay for them through creating content and activity for other players

[Barsook]

Code Master, I think you have brought an interesting point on what possible role can be played in Allanak. Other than the solical-poltical roles, what others can be played well and why. What can't be due to problems that could be fixed? As you listed some for degenerate.

As for solical-poltical roles, I think the main two issues is where are the gathering areas are located and who the events are for. As for a fix for gathering areas, I think I do agree with Code Master, they need to in paths where people are forced to cross paths with along with maybe combining the Gaj and Red's Retreat into on major tavern with many rooms with another entrance for the clientele of the Red's Retreat. And I think it should be the Gaj not the Red's because the Red's is too deep in Allanak.

[Alesan]

Being a run-of-the-mill degenerate character in Allanak is like being a vNPC that people can target.

[Saiseiki]

- Tie more housing to occupation; open clans up to combatant roles and force more people to join clans (which makes sense) if they want a place to stay.  But this could also mean tiny room X requires you to clean tables at the Gaj, or shovel dung at the stable.  Open up low-class clan roles for elves and half-elves, like House Jaal sewer cleaners. Players obviously love apartments, but make them pay for them through creating content and activity for other players

I don't feel like I have either the seniority nor the perspective to intelligently comment on many of the above points, but the bolded section actually makes a lot of sense to me.  This hits several of the areas of concern that are coming up again and again - it gives low-class characters a viable employment option; you have a legitimate IC reason for upper-crust characters to rp with their "lessers"; and it firmly reinforces the species hierarchy.  Not sure if it fits in with other setting aspects but at least on these points I think it's a winner.

[triste]

- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick

Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.

[TheBardicCircle]

Oh! Wow! The dungeon idea is so cool!

[Fredd]

- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick

Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.

10/10 I support this.

Banishment DOES happen IG. it has happened recently if I am not mistaken. However it isn't CODED, as far as I know. So eventually, CrimCode wears off.
The dungeon's cells should only be used for things like merchant,s or nobles awaiting a trial. The others should get a group room that's dark, has secrets, and a chance to escape. Also, the chance to be locked up with the guy you hate and choked to death.

Codedly fighting for your freedom sounds awesome. When was the last time the Arena was even used? Been a minute I think.

[HeeBeeGB]

- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick

Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.

C'mon now. Justice is dispensed how it is dispensed...As with most things in ArmageddonMUD it is pretty binary. You are caught or you are not caught, you survive a torture or you don't.

Making things more complex (and possibly more fun) doesn't mean the current dispensers of justice are lazy, they're simply using the tools they have available to them.

[Narf]

- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick

Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.

C'mon now. Justice is dispensed how it is dispensed...As with most things in ArmageddonMUD it is pretty binary. You are caught or you are not caught, you survive a torture or you don't.

Making things more complex (and possibly more fun) doesn't mean the current dispensers of justice are lazy, they're simply using the tools they have available to them.

Wouldn't take much stretch of the imagination for orders to be passed down that Allanak's population is dropping too fast, and prisoner's need to be conscripted into the army instead of killed or the like.

[Jihelu]

- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick

Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.

10/10 I support this.

Banishment DOES happen IG. it has happened recently if I am not mistaken. However it isn't CODED, as far as I know. So eventually, CrimCode wears off.
The dungeon's cells should only be used for things like merchant,s or nobles awaiting a trial. The others should get a group room that's dark, has secrets, and a chance to escape. Also, the chance to be locked up with the guy you hate and choked to death.

Codedly fighting for your freedom sounds awesome. When was the last time the Arena was even used? Been a minute I think.

From my understanding you can perma crime code people.

[HeeBeeGB]

Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.

[HortaCulture]

Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.

There is indeed such a setting.

[Fredd]

Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.

There is indeed such a setting.

We should see more banishments. Send them out naked into the desert, blindfolded.

[Hauwke]

Banishments would result in salty, grumpy players though sadly.

[HortaCulture]

Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.

There is indeed such a setting.

We should see more banishments. Send them out naked into the desert, blindfolded.

The difficult part is that by exercising said "setting" you are also effectively triggering every NPC guard in the area to hunt that mofo down. It gets tricky. Especially because PC's have pesky habit of fleeing reflexively and then lethal force gets deployed by the aforementioned law enforcement..

Banishment is really cool though. Being banished is pretty bad ass even if you embrace it.

Banishments would result in salty, grumpy players though sadly.

So does dying I reckon. We're all salty like the bottom of a bag of pretzels.

[Barsook]

I'm not sure if this could really help, I fear it will hinder more than help. I still want hear some thoughts. I know some of youn seen this on Discord.

Since Tuluk is gone and the only major city like area is Luir's, would moving all of the GMH's and the Byn's holdings to Luir's. Like in the real world, both operate as businesses. Having that said, if the said holdings move, could Allanak have competition with the Post?

To me, that fits the theme of both areas and the game itself.  Heck, it could even give us a big baddie.

[Kyviantre]

Sounds like it would just encourage more people to play in Luir's than in Allanak.  At least right now, the GMH move back and forth en masse regularly (good for bringing gossip, raiders wanting to attack them, byn contracts, and an ebb and flow of people that can help with circulation).  If they were kept in Luir's, you'd lose most of that...and I'm not sure why they would want to leave the wealth and politics of Allanak (willingly) - Luir's might have the raw materials that they need, but the market is small and mostly made up of each other or hunters/grebbers/soldiers (fine for their cheaper gear, not good for the big ticket items that they can maximise profit off in Allanak - not to mention the fact that Allanak is huge in comparison, with a much larger buying power overall, even if the PCs don't represent that atm).

I can see that going very wrong...I think I'd rather see smaller merchant houses eventually push onto the council and try to shove Salarr/Kadius out of the Outpost (not sure you could get Kurac out, prickly things they are!) and back to Allanak.  That would seem like a far more logical progression, but relies on players building little merchant houses and surviving.

[Barsook]

You are right, it hinders Allanak. The Post should say as an outpost.

[Aruven]

The incentive for people to play ordinary mundane roles was supposed to be Karma.

Playing the roles to flavor the atmosphere up and even play a character into a death scene to blow someone else's mind was supposed to be rewarding. Your dedication to the story and ability to provide enjoyment to the players yielded more responsibility and power to tell that story.

Part of the discussion is that when people get full karma there's less incentive to do the little things. I have for awhile and still feel part of the discussion is the greater plot arc of the larger world.

Playing in Allanak (This is coming from ME, the Tuluk guy!) is and can be rewarding. There are still myriads of options to choose, I personally would like to see the houses opened in full. Hell with active raider clans there's even opportunities to hire the borsail wyverns again.

[triste]

I love all the mobilization around more House roles (from Jal sewer workers to House Hunters). Currently Allanak is a case of the Haves and the Have Nots not only in terms of in game coin, but in terms of plot resources (there are Infinity Percent more noble roles open than staff supported city elf roles. Infinity more percent. Don't hate me because this is a mathematical fact given there are Zero staff supported city elf roles). If certain people literally are not allowed to play noble roles, at least open up some commoner roles.

How many people are going to say "GMH Hunters were great," or "New house roles for commoners would be great," before we see a fair shift of RP resources away from "The Top 1%" and towards the places players actually want to play.

[triste]

I just want to say I respect where staff were coming from by heavily supporting Noble roles, but let the playerbase speak: Trickle-down Roleplay Economics does not work. If it did work, this megathread would not exist.

Even if Noble players are well intentioned and want their wealth and influence to trickle down, they aren't allowed to hire people for the roles in the docs. "Oh I am a great Salarri and I need hunters but I cannot hire you because of [beep beep boop a strange restrictive rule on House hiring that isn't supported by documentation]." Yeaaah we should fix this. Literally the only thing Nobles are allowed to trickle down in Trickle Down Roleplay Economics is trickling ginka sauce on concubines. And that isn't their fault (as frustrating as it is for everyone involved, even that concubine who would rather be a House Hunter than a House Whore. Again please do not punish me for speaking truth as prostitution roles are open but hunter roles are for whatever reason not.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics

[SpyGuy]

I'd just like to add that restrictions can be played around.  Your Borsail noble could certainly hire Amos the badass as an aide and then instruct them to organize a unit to hunt down and kill escaped muls.  Your PCs title (or more to the point subordinates' titles) don't have to limit the sort of work they do.  In my experience staff is pretty willing to be flexible if you work with them.

My problem with a ton of combat clans being open at one time is that most will feel dead.  Every once in awhile you'll get a great leader PC who can make the Kuraci Fist something awesome.  But that probably means the Kadian hunting unit and the Arm have at best a few PCs.  Is that a bad thing?   Not necessarily but under the current restrictions an enterprising GMH leader could make it happen with Indy hunters too.  There's nothing to say the relationship between Indy hunters and GMH has to start and end with 'These hides are worth 350 sid'.

I'd just like to further reiterate that I support the closer of all Noble Houses and instead adding a couple more templars and multiple active GMH family roles to the game.  I think this would eliminate some of the stratification of the player base and GMH tend to have a lot more to do than noble PCs.  Nobilis delenda est

[Is Friday]

"Too many nobles" isn't the issue. Not enough minions for the nobles is.

"Too many aides" isn't the issue. Not enough aides is.

There are leaders and aides who have been trying for the past year to push plots and plots and plots but there aren't people to get involved.

Blaming "too many leaders" is silly. They're trying to reward minions with plots but few are even trying to get involved. Some of you are complaining about having nothing to do but then also not even trying to get involved.