My Torture Complaint & The Culture Here

[Brokkr]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

Bebop had her interpretation of documentation and its purpose.  Staff had an interpretation of documentation and its purpose.  Staff rendered a decision.  Bebop disagreed with the reasoning behind the decision and the decision.

As far as I can tell, there wasn't disagreement on actual events.  There weren't graphic emotes.  The core is that Bebop believes consent should be required for whipping, irregardless of anything else that may or may not happen in the scene.  Staff disagreed with that.

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

[Malken]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

In a totally messed up way, this would probably triple our playerbase overnight. 

[Thomoto]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

ooc consent.

[Malken]

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

Anyone remembers the dude that walked into the Sanctuary with a 5-lines tdesc describing his ding dong and had forgotten to turn it off? That was epic.

No one would go for his ooc excuse that he would never had forgotten to put on pants before walking into the Sanctuary, especially not the Chosen Lord present.

[triste]

There weren't graphic emotes.

If these are the facts of the case, great. I am curious about how the facts are determined. Not by a jury of Bebop's peers.

Unfortunately because of the lack of visibility into the facts I cannot have a strong opinion either way, but I will re-iterate that I've seen the consent rules followed as they currently exist, and I've seen players be considerate and ask consent for scenes beyond the bare minimum set of scenes you have to ask consent for.

[Yam]

the make arm great again #noconsent crew can fuck right off. seriously. fuck off. go somewhere elese.

but also bebop. enough with the shit stirring.

fuck

just stop it. please stop

stop


stopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

[Thomoto]

the make arm great again #noconsent crew can fuck right off. seriously. fuck off. go somewhere elese.

but also bebop. enough with the shit stirring.

fuck

just stop it. please stop

stop


stopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

no u
.dab

[Cendell]

Arm is a 100% surveillance environment. There is no ambiguity. There is no interpretation. Staff can see every command, every person in every scene type into the game and press enter. You don't need a bunch of "peers" to hear different sides and decide what is most likely to have happened.

We don't need elected Staff (The stupidest idea) and we don't need player juries deliberating on random aspects of the game.

/derail

There weren't graphic emotes.

If these are the facts of the case, great. I am curious about how the facts are determined. Not by a jury of Bebop's peers.

Unfortunately because of the lack of visibility into the facts I cannot have a strong opinion either way, but I will re-iterate that I've seen the consent rules followed as they currently exist, and I've seen players be considerate and ask consent for scenes beyond the bare minimum set of scenes you have to ask consent for.

[tapas]

@Bebop take it from someone who gets real mad at the game. Like real maaaaad at the game.

Take a breather and 24 hours before you decide to post anymore drama. Including staff interactions, requests, discord convos, etc. It'll feel good now, but it'll just serve to burn bridges you wish you hadn't.

#noconsent

Fuck off.

[triste]

Arm is a 100% surveillance environment. There is no ambiguity. There is no interpretation. Staff can see every command, every person in every scene type into the game and press enter. You don't need a bunch of "peers" to hear different sides and decide what is most likely to have happened.

We don't need elected Staff (The stupidest idea) and we don't need player juries deliberating on random aspects of the game.

/derail

There weren't graphic emotes.

If these are the facts of the case, great. I am curious about how the facts are determined. Not by a jury of Bebop's peers.

Unfortunately because of the lack of visibility into the facts I cannot have a strong opinion either way, but I will re-iterate that I've seen the consent rules followed as they currently exist, and I've seen players be considerate and ask consent for scenes beyond the bare minimum set of scenes you have to ask consent for.

Fine, I give it up and I'll never mention it again. I am just concerned because players keep saying they're quitting over this but I'll stop empathizing with them I guess.

[Malken]

Fine, I give it up and I'll never mention it again. I am just concerned because players keep saying they're quitting over this but I'll stop empathizing with them I guess.

That's how you'll live long and prosper. 🖖

[mansa]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

...

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

I totally understand that.  Characters can walk around buck wild all they want.  However...

It is my opinion that involuntary nudity immediately becomes sexual, as it is not the player's choice to make their character remove their clothes.  When another character with authority/power over yours makes/requests your character to be naked, it's immediately crosses my line of consent.  I would kindly request that anyone that wants to continue a scene like that would simply go Out-Of-Character using the OOC command and say, 'consent to continue ?'

I view consent as a sliding scale from moment to moment, and though I may consent to being stripped and whipped, I wouldn't consent to have my hand cut off, boiled in belshun wine, and fed to me while I was strapped to a pole.   And maybe I might be, if I felt like exploring that and I was in that frame of mind at that time of day.  But consent it isn't all or nothing, and consent is so simple to ask for...

[triste]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

...

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

I totally understand that.  Characters can walk around buck wild all they want.  However...

It is my opinion that involuntary nudity immediately becomes sexual, as it is not the player's choice to make their character remove their clothes.  When another character with authority/power over yours makes/requests your character to be naked, it's immediately crosses my line of consent.  I would kindly request that anyone that wants to continue a scene like that would simply go Out-Of-Character using the OOC command and say, 'consent to continue ?'

I view consent as a sliding scale from moment to moment, and though I may consent to being stripped and whipped, I wouldn't consent to have my hand cut off, boiled in belshun wine, and fed to me while I was strapped to a pole.   And maybe I might be, if I felt like exploring that and I was in that frame of mind at that time of day.  But consent it isn't all or nothing, and consent is so simple to ask for...

Everyone's line of consent is different. As we see, we have people who believe in no consent.

Your line of consent isn't allowed to spontaneously invalidate someone else's line of consent, so what do we do?

I might be in favor of consent for nudity, but how do we register everyone's opinion?

If voting is stupid, someone answer that.

In the meantime? I'd like to tell a short story about the very-fucking-awesome player I made a shout out to earlier. Arguably -- indeed, enforcably -- in our modern life, it is wrong for politicians in power to abuse their power to coerce their aides to do things. In Armageddon, this happens all the fucking time. But only once have I seen a player ask consent before abusing their power in this way. They asked consent before doing the most inane fucking thing -- touching my character's cheek -- but in the mind of a RL harassment survivor this could be triggering. So I thought them asking for consent was cool as fuck. I kudosed them.

Does this mean I think people should ask consent before every problematic scene involving a power differential? No fucking way. Do I think players who are considerate and ask for consent in scenes beyond the minimum are cool? Hell yes, because consent is sexy -- and indeed is mandatory in some cases.

[Thomoto]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

...

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

I totally understand that.  Characters can walk around buck wild all they want.  However...

It is my opinion that involuntary nudity immediately becomes sexual, as it is not the player's choice to make their character remove their clothes.  When another character with authority/power over yours makes/requests your character to be naked, it's immediately crosses my line of consent.  I would kindly request that anyone that wants to continue a scene like that would simply go Out-Of-Character using the OOC command and say, 'consent to continue ?'

I view consent as a sliding scale from moment to moment, and though I may consent to being stripped and whipped, I wouldn't consent to have my hand cut off, boiled in belshun wine, and fed to me while I was strapped to a pole.   And maybe I might be, if I felt like exploring that and I was in that frame of mind at that time of day.  But consent it isn't all or nothing, and consent is so simple to ask for...

Everyone's line of consent is different. As we see, we have people who believe in no consent.

Your line of consent isn't allowed to spontaneously invalidate someone else's line of consent, so what do we do?

I might be in favor of consent for nudity, but how do we register everyone's opinion?

If voting is stupid, someone answer that.

In the meantime? I'd like to tell a short story about the very-fucking-awesome player I made a shout out to earlier. Arguably -- indeed, enforcably -- in our modern life, it is wrong for politicians in power to abuse their power to coerce their aides to do things. In Armageddon, this happens all the fucking time. But only once have I seen a player ask consent before abusing their power in this way. They asked consent before doing the most inane fucking thing -- touching my character's cheek -- but in the mind of a RL harassment survivor this could be triggering. So I thought them asking for consent was cool as fuck. I kudosed them.

Does this mean I think people should ask consent before every problematic scene involving a power differential? No fucking way. Do I think players who are considerate and ask for consent in scenes beyond the minimum are cool? Hell yes, because consent is sexy -- and indeed is mandatory in some cases.

consent to touch a cheek?
...
Why?

[triste]

Power differentials dude.

But this gets to the point under discussion. Mansa's consent for nudity... why? When it's more welcomed and less taboo in Europe and other contexts.

BTW, I believe you're underaged. There are things you legally need to ask consent for IRL, don't get in trouble, ask your teachers. Don't care to discuss this anymore with anyone who is underaged fyi to anyone else here.

[Thomoto]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

[Malken]

This game is so doomed.

Doomed I tell ye!

[triste]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

While I am a big fan of "Free the Nipple" as a feminist, and so disagree with Mansa as a pro-freedom feminist, I'd love for us all to be able to say whether we want more or less consent rules and have our opinions count.

[Thomoto]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

[triste]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

My thoughts are clear -- if I see a kid cheering on people talking about "no consent," I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law. I used to hand out pamphlets about the law when I was in highschool to my classmates. I am sorry I am a fucking dork and lame I honestly didn't mean ill by it.

[BadSkeelz]

Fine, I give it up and I'll never mention it again. I am just concerned because players keep saying they're quitting over this but I'll stop empathizing with them I guess.

People keep saying they're quitting and then they're back in less than a week complaining. Probably be healthier for them to just completely walk away.

Also, Yam's right.

[Heade]

I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law.

Well, if you feel that way, then you should be aware that consent rules don't protect you from interactions with a minor. A minor who gives consent legally cannot give consent, and so the consent means nothing.

#noconsent

Fuck off.

Fuck on. Make Armageddon Great Again. #NoConsent

[Malken]

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

You could start with an unofficial GDB poll but I fear that might show you just how much of a bad idea voting on issues would be.

[Thomoto]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

My thoughts are clear -- if I see a kid cheering on people talking about "no consent," I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law. I used to hand out pamphlets about the law when I was in highschool to my classmates. I am sorry I am a fucking dork and lame I honestly didn't mean ill by it.

I'm not gonna add anymore than: You missed the fucking point.
Also, microaggression is a thing.

[triste]

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

You could start with an unofficial GDB poll but I fear that might show you just how much of a bad idea voting on issues would be.

Staff already removed GDB voting because obviously it's easy to manipulate. While Armageddon could easily implement account locked voting, I'm willing to give it up.

Brokkr's reply to this thread was sufficient. We don't need the change mansa's proposing, it's repressive. Staff have a well thought out policy. Like BadSkeelz said, yam's reply is the best player reply here.