The games direction.

[Heade]

@ The OP:

Alright, I feel like this is enough. Look, games in general are art. Not all art is appreciated by everyone. Not all art is representative of all cultures. I don't see a painting by a traditional Japanese artist and say to myself, "Wow, this could really use some straight white influence on the subject material." or "Why isn't this art more inclusive of the LGBTQ community?" As a matter of fact, if a prominant POC artist had responses to his/her art that it wasn't representative enough of the white perspective, there would be outrage. It shouldn't be different when you're critiquing art created by any other race.

Armageddon is a game. It is one of the most successful free MUDs in the history of MUDing with a strong playerbase and 20+ years of history. Its subject matter and handling of things like fantastic racism and egalitarianism has contributed to it's popularity as a form of art, an interactive story. It is literature. Like any other literature, if you don't like it, don't read it. Art cannot appeal to all people. It's impossible. Specifically, if it becomes more appealing to one demographic, it likely becomes less appealing to another. When you're talking about taking a single piece of art, like this game, and making it more appealing to a small demographic, like say 5% of the population in the case of LGBTQ, you're likely going to make it less appealing to the other 95%, which has an overall net negative effect on the number of participants in the game. Math works the same way when you start talking about catering specifically other demographics, like POC.

So, coming here asking to fundamentally change the world to eliminate all possible things that could be considered offensive is destructive to the gameworld. If we all wanted to walk on eggshells about political correctness, seek consent for every action we take, and consider feelings before the feeling police come to take us away, we'd just step outside and go play the ultimate RPG: Life.

We're here to play in a different world, with a different set of rules, where life isn't fair, political correctness means bowing to your superiors or they kill you, and people are very likely going to say nasty and racist things to us. We're going to be marginalized, stepped on, abused, and likely killed. We're participating in a collaberative piece of literature, working together to create stories within a framework that has already existed for 20+ years. If you want to crusade against racism in this game, you can. Do it in character, in the game. Be the MLK of Elves if it makes you happy. Maybe you can ICly change the culture. That's something that might be able to happen. But you won't be doing it here, OOCly.

Someone just needs to come out and say it when this crap comes up instead of prancing around the issue. This isn't the place for real-world crusades. The game world is the game world. Real life is real life. Keep them separate, like they're supposed to be.

[triste]

I don't see a painting by a traditional Japanese artist and say to myself, "Wow, this could really use some straight white influence on the subject material."

So well put.

Sadly Americans say, more or less, exactly this to Japanese, Korean, and other artists all the time. Unused to such horrific rudeness, entitlement, and close-mindedness they often shut down accounts and stop sending their art to America--or worse, stop producing art completely, ashamed from abuse they did not deserve.

[mansa]

...
Someone just needs to come out and say it when this crap comes up instead of prancing around the issue. This isn't the place for real-world crusades. The game world is the game world. Real life is real life. Keep them separate, like they're supposed to be.

I think there are some issues that is contained within the game world of Zalanthas that is not enjoyable to roleplay in.  It is an escapist game, and we should craft the world so that it escapes the real world reality that we experience every day.

Some of those things are:

• Gender
• Sex
• Rape
• Racism
• Religion

Racism is tricky, though. We want to have conflict between different fantastic races, but we don't want to reproduce slang, historical examples, or symbols that have been used in the real world.   We're also (mostly) north american players, and we repeat examples of hated that we have learned in our local society.  That's why the name "Gypsies" are retconned, because that's a real world example that was lifted and played out in game.   Same with the slang 'Necker', which was lifted and twisted by some players who used it to represent real world slang.   Blackwing elves is another example of native american / first nations that was lifted and dropped into Zalanthas.

If players started to call the Labyrinth "the ghetto" I would complain.
I'm especially iffy about the concept that nobles should have "white" skin.
If players started using Yiddish slang, I would complain.

[triste]

I'm especially iffy about the concept that nobles should have "white" skin.

They do not unilaterally, I recall that from the last rolecall House Tor members tend to be darker skinned and I applied for a dark skinned Tor member [did not get the role sadly for y'all].

That said I agree documentation around phenotypical characteristics people are discriminated against in real life--such as hair, skin, and eyes--might be due for a second look. Height and ears are fine because there is enough phenotypical variation among IRL cultural groups that it is not as much of a thing. The NBA's tallest players come from just about every continent because race truly does not have a strong bearing on it. Also, no one is born with seven inch long elf ears so far as I know IRL. Therefore calling someone "knife ears" or whatever IG should be non-triggering except for extremely specific circumstances. Skin, eyes, and hair are risky however.

[Heade]

...
Someone just needs to come out and say it when this crap comes up instead of prancing around the issue. This isn't the place for real-world crusades. The game world is the game world. Real life is real life. Keep them separate, like they're supposed to be.

I think there are some issues that is contained within the game world of Zalanthas that is not enjoyable to roleplay in.  It is an escapist game, and we should craft the world so that it escapes the real world reality that we experience every day.

Some of those things are:

• Gender
• Sex
• Rape
• Racism
• Religion

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I don't spend my days IRL being a racist, bigoted, homophobic rapist that crusades around the world with religious zeal. So, those things being in a game is escapism for me. It allows you to explore terrible, horrific subject matter with no real world consequence. I was drawn to arm for it's portrayal of all of these terrible things.

Look, if you eliminate these types of issues in both the real world and the fictional world, how will people know why they're so awful? They will have neither experienced it, nor heard about it, nor read about it. Through literature and roleplay, we can experience the truly terrible and feel the associated emotions with no real world consequence, other than reaching a greater understanding of why these things are terrible IRL.

Reading fiction about the horrors of slavery, torture, rape, racism, religious zealotry, sexism and so on is healthy.

I adhere to the game's documentation, but I can tell you now, if Armageddon becomes a safe space ICly, I will find something else to do with my time. There are millions of things I could do. For years, the word most often used to describe Armageddon's game world was "harsh". Over the years as we've slid towards OOC political correctness and hand-holding that bleeds into the IC world, I feel like this descriptor has become less and less accurate. And it's that descriptor that set Armageddon apart from "just another MU*".

A permadeath MU* that takes out all of the emotional attachment and emotional investment in characters by avoiding all negative life events except death is "just another MU*", and is precisely why there are so many complaints that players won't use alternatives to murder. All PC conflict is extreme because you can't get in trouble for killing another PC in game for an IC reason. But try to do anything else negative to them without consent and you're flirting with a ban. That is ridiculous.

It is banworthy to offend someone or RP grabbing their butt without consent, but it's ok to kill them without a word. This is the backwards-ass game system you get when you try to take a harsh, permadeath gameworld and pretend to be sensitive to the OOC feelings of everyone they possibly can be.

There is a separation between IC and OOC. That should be the driving force of what we're doing here. It should not be allowed to harass people OOCly, or exhibit behavior OOCly that is unacceptable in modern society. But IC, people should be aware going into it that it is an adult-themed game in a harsh, unforgiving world that does not share the same values that we do IRL. If people can't separate their OOC emotions from what is happening ICly in the game world, it's possible that permadeath RPI's are not for them.

If I had one thing I missed about old-school staff, it would be on this point. Old school staff had no problem telling people exactly what I'm saying, "If you don't like the game world, maybe it's just not for you."

If we had more people willing to say that in regard to the flavor of the gameworld, I think we'd have a better game, and more players today.

[X-D]

As to the question of staff demographics...Staff should be chosen for quality in the job....that is it. Nobody should care about anything else.

I know I do not, I have never asked if that new clan staffer is male, female, black, white, gay straight etc etc etc etc. Are they good, bad or somewhere in between...nothing else matters. If all the best staffers happen to be single white males, then so be it...if they all happen to be gay midgets from borneo...Great...or any combination of anything...I only care about merit.

[triste]

...
Someone just needs to come out and say it when this crap comes up instead of prancing around the issue. This isn't the place for real-world crusades. The game world is the game world. Real life is real life. Keep them separate, like they're supposed to be.

I think there are some issues that is contained within the game world of Zalanthas that is not enjoyable to roleplay in.  It is an escapist game, and we should craft the world so that it escapes the real world reality that we experience every day.

Some of those things are:

• Gender
• Sex
• Rape
• Racism
• Religion

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I don't spend my days IRL being a racist, bigoted, homophobic rapist that crusades around the world with religious zeal. So, those things being in a game is escapism for me. It allows you to explore terrible, horrific subject matter with no real world consequence. I was drawn to arm for it's portrayal of all of these terrible things.

Look, if you eliminate these types of issues in both the real world and the fictional world, how will people know why they're so awful? They will have neither experienced it, nor heard about it, nor read about it. Through literature and roleplay, we can experience the truly terrible and feel the associated emotions with no real world consequence, other than reaching a greater understanding of why these things are terrible IRL.

Reading fiction about the horrors of slavery, torture, rape, racism, religious zealotry, sexism and so on is healthy.

I adhere to the game's documentation, but I can tell you now, if Armageddon becomes a safe space ICly, I will find something else to do with my time. There are millions of things I could do. For years, the word most often used to describe Armageddon's game world was "harsh". Over the years as we've slid towards OOC political correctness and hand-holding that bleeds into the IC world, I feel like this descriptor has become less and less accurate. And it's that descriptor that set Armageddon apart from "just another MU*".

A permadeath MU* that takes out all of the emotional attachment and emotional investment in characters by avoiding all negative life events except death is "just another MU*", and is precisely why there are so many complaints that players won't use alternatives to murder. All PC conflict is extreme because you can't get in trouble for killing another PC in game for an IC reason. But try to do anything else negative to them without consent and you're flirting with a ban. That is ridiculous.

It is banworthy to offend someone or RP grabbing their butt without consent, but it's ok to kill them without a word. This is the backwards-ass game system you get when you try to take a harsh, permadeath gameworld and pretend to be sensitive to the OOC feelings of everyone they possibly can be.

There is a separation between IC and OOC. That should be the driving force of what we're doing here. It should not be allowed to harass people OOCly, or exhibit behavior OOCly that is unacceptable in modern society. But IC, people should be aware going into it that it is an adult-themed game in a harsh, unforgiving world that does not share the same values that we do IRL. If people can't separate their OOC emotions from what is happening ICly in the game world, it's possible that permadeath RPI's are not for them.

If I had one thing I missed about old-school staff, it would be on this point. Old school staff had no problem telling people exactly what I'm saying, "If you don't like the game world, maybe it's just not for you."

If we had more people willing to say that in regard to the flavor of the gameworld, I think we'd have a better game, and more players today.

In my last post I agreed with mansa that documentation around skin tone are "iffy" in his words and "risky" in my words. But I still completely agree with Heade and this is not contradictory: Art can be risky. In fact art that is risky and challenges the status quo is considered true art when compared to commercial art. Examining the tension between true art and mass market commercial art is what Postmodernism was about.

Like Heade I would prefer risky, true, unfiltered art given a choice.

[Heade]

As to the question of staff demographics...Staff should be chosen for quality in the job....that is it. Nobody should care about anything else.

I know I do not, I have never asked if that new clan staffer is male, female, black, white, gay straight etc etc etc etc. Are they good, bad or somewhere in between...nothing else matters. If all the best staffers happen to be single white males, then so be it...if they all happen to be gay midgets from borneo...Great...or any combination of anything...I only care about merit.

I have a man-crush. Sadly, not gay though, in case people are collecting demographics for future staff selection criteria.

[Hauwke]

Making a selection based on whether or not a person is gay or black doesn't seem at all offensive to you guys?

To my knowledge, the perfect system is in place. Meritocracy in an online medium. I bet, at least half of all staffers are safe in the knowledge that their skin color and sexuality are not factors in the discussion about whether they got the position.

I say half, because I know a few staffers get on voice and video chat on Discord.

[DesertT]

Soooo....

Does one just CLAIM to be a member of a certain community?

Or do they need to provide video evidence?

Asking for a friend!!

[Heade]

Making a selection based on whether or not a person is gay or black doesn't seem at all offensive to you guys?

Yeah, I think most people have expressed an opinion that way.

[triste]

Making a selection based on whether or not a person is gay or black doesn't seem at all offensive to you guys?

Yeah, I think most people have expressed an opinion that way.

Yep. I am a bi trans person of color double rape victim with a genetic blood disease. I find the idea ill advisable even with all my "diversity points."

Meritocracies are ideal but the question becomes how does one measure merit. So far as I know there are no rules like "If thirty distinct players file a complaint against a staffer, they cannot be a staffer anymore." Without an explanation of the criteria for merit, there is no evidence that the system now is a meritocracy.

(Newsflash we are all taking this too seriously. We do not have a meritocracy, or elections; at the end it is just a group of mostly chill volunteers. That said most volunteer orgs still have published policies.)

[mansa]

..

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I don't spend my days IRL being a racist, bigoted, homophobic rapist that crusades around the world with religious zeal. So, those things being in a game is escapism for me. It allows you to explore terrible, horrific subject matter with no real world consequence. I was drawn to arm for it's portrayal of all of these terrible things.

Look, if you eliminate these types of issues in both the real world and the fictional world, how will people know why they're so awful? They will have neither experienced it, nor heard about it, nor read about it. Through literature and roleplay, we can experience the truly terrible and feel the associated emotions with no real world consequence, other than reaching a greater understanding of why these things are terrible IRL.

Reading fiction about the horrors of slavery, torture, rape, racism, religious zealotry, sexism and so on is healthy.

ArmageddonMUD is not a teaching tool to enlighten people.  It's a roleplaying game that players can inhabit another body and play out fantasy within the text world.  It should be an escape from the everyday real.

This means that you shouldn't have to experience the shit you get in real life in a made up fantasy game.  And yeah, it is a safe space.  That's built into the rules of the world of Zalanthas.

There is gender equality, and you can be any gender.
There is no negative social queues of bisexual, homosexual, or polyamorous relationships.
There is no rape in game.
There is no racism based on the color of your skin.

You cannot roleplay characters in this game that don't adhere to these concepts.   The game is clear that it's a safe space the points above.

[triste]

..

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I don't spend my days IRL being a racist, bigoted, homophobic rapist that crusades around the world with religious zeal. So, those things being in a game is escapism for me. It allows you to explore terrible, horrific subject matter with no real world consequence. I was drawn to arm for it's portrayal of all of these terrible things.

Look, if you eliminate these types of issues in both the real world and the fictional world, how will people know why they're so awful? They will have neither experienced it, nor heard about it, nor read about it. Through literature and roleplay, we can experience the truly terrible and feel the associated emotions with no real world consequence, other than reaching a greater understanding of why these things are terrible IRL.

Reading fiction about the horrors of slavery, torture, rape, racism, religious zealotry, sexism and so on is healthy.

ArmageddonMUD is not a teaching tool to enlighten people.  It's a roleplaying game that players can inhabit another body and play out fantasy within the text world.  It should be an escape from the everyday real.

This means that you shouldn't have to experience the shit you get in real life in a made up fantasy game.  And yeah, it is a safe space.  That's built into the rules of the world of Zalanthas.

There is gender equality, and you can be any gender.
There is no negative social queues of bisexual, homosexual, or polyamorous relationships.
There is no rape in game.
There is no racism based on the color of your skin.

You cannot roleplay characters in this game that don't adhere to these concepts.   The game is clear that it's a safe space the points above.

I think what Heade is trying to escape are restrictive cultural rules recently championed in real life which have no relation to the setting. Heade is allowed to desire an escape from these rules.

[triste]

Art is really the best metaphor here.

Do we want to be like commercial art; do we want to be like WoTC which has bent over to protect it's brand and offered to gut their content like some novelists will for Hollywood.

Or, do we want to be true to what this game is about, be true to the theme despite the criticism, like real artists who do not fear criticism.

There is a time and place to take and act on criticism, but we cannot be so cowardly as to jump and leap to please our critics every time, as some critics might be asking us to jump off a cliff.

[Heade]

..

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I don't spend my days IRL being a racist, bigoted, homophobic rapist that crusades around the world with religious zeal. So, those things being in a game is escapism for me. It allows you to explore terrible, horrific subject matter with no real world consequence. I was drawn to arm for it's portrayal of all of these terrible things.

Look, if you eliminate these types of issues in both the real world and the fictional world, how will people know why they're so awful? They will have neither experienced it, nor heard about it, nor read about it. Through literature and roleplay, we can experience the truly terrible and feel the associated emotions with no real world consequence, other than reaching a greater understanding of why these things are terrible IRL.

Reading fiction about the horrors of slavery, torture, rape, racism, religious zealotry, sexism and so on is healthy.

ArmageddonMUD is not a teaching tool to enlighten people.  It's a roleplaying game that players can inhabit another body and play out fantasy within the text world.  It should be an escape from the everyday real.

This means that you shouldn't have to experience the shit you get in real life in a made up fantasy game.  And yeah, it is a safe space.  That's built into the rules of the world of Zalanthas.

There is gender equality, and you can be any gender.
There is no negative social queues of bisexual, homosexual, or polyamorous relationships.
There is no rape in game.
There is no racism based on the color of your skin.

You cannot roleplay characters in this game that don't adhere to these concepts.   The game is clear that it's a safe space the points above.

These weren't all always the rules of the game, and while I adhere to them, I don't necessarily agree with all of them. But we're also not talking about those specific rules, here. People are attempting to draw parallels between human/elven racism to real life racism and make it a big issue. It shouldn't be. This is art. This is literature.

Huckleberry Finn explored and highlighted racism, but Mark Twain is still widely considered a great American author.

I would love it if Armageddon would run an experiment. Run one version of Armageddon with no consent rules except FTB requests, and that allowed all controversial subject material(Torture, Rape, Religious Pursuits, Racism without limited vernacular, etc), and another version of Armageddon that took every feel-good suggestion from the Political Correctness Committee, and let them run side by side for 2 years. Whichever one had the highest daily average login times would be the philosophy that Arm would stick with. Either be a harsh world IC, or be a sensitive carebear game that pretends it's harsh as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.

I suspect there would be a clear winner in the end, and I doubt it would be what you think it would.

[triste]

I have hesitated to reply to see if anyone has feedback. But I just want to say...

Armageddon with no consent rules except FTB requests, and that allowed all controversial subject material

Yup, I would vote with my feet and play this version for sure rather than the alternative. Like I often say here, more content and options are generally better than less. I am for more content, less drama, more agency, less constraints.

[tapas]

Fuck right off.

Armageddon is neither art nor literature. This is a game. As a game it's meant to be fun for everyone, not just the shitwit with rape fantasies.

[triste]

Not all games OR art OR media have to fit the same script. It requires a bit of empathy and insight to realize this.

People who want safe mass market themes now have WotC!

[triste]

I kid, I kid. Of course we have already made compromises so we will continue to. We took the common philosophy that you need to accommodate those want to take away content rather than encourage people to self-manage their reactions to content or find/create new content. And that is fine. I empathize with people who don't want to encounter some topics and can accept their viewpoint. Just playing along with Heade's thought experiment. Thought is not a crime to be told to fuck off for.

[th3kaiser]

Ew no. I'm not a sensitive person at all, but the consent rules make me very happy. I don't want to even get near being raped by you thirsty motherfuckers. Some of us do not engage in sexual roleplay whatsoever because it actively ruins our enjoyment of the game. There's other games for your rape-fantasies if that's what you need in your life.

[triste]

At no point did I say I want rape content / fantasies / whatever tf by the way. Just saying I have a thick skin and do not fear any content. And I am saying this as a rape victim.

Either way, I understand the policies given the visceral reactions. It's a good policy.

[triste]

Let's get back on topic.

OP is coming from a good place and wants us to figure out how we can sensibly address hard topics in a way that pleases the playerbase. He proposed to handle this through representation.

I went along with a thought experiment Heade had that others seemed to like the gist of. But not all agree with that approach.

Are the other posters saying we get what we want by moaning "Ew" and screaming "Fuck off?"

Do we just remove content bit by bit when people submit complaints? "____ is offensive, remove it." Is this game a Complain-ocracy?

What is our mechanism and solution. I don't want to be a Complain-ocracy.

[triste]

Frankly, I can imagine a scenario where a cadre of anti-animal cruelty activists campaign against this game because you can ride mounts. Should we remove mount riding if a group of people complain that it is cruelty? IDK, one of my favorite players is a dressage expert, a lot of people like her. Other players like horses too. How do we decide whether to appease the animal rights players and the horse riding players?

We need a mechanism, I am tired of random sweeping changes that alienate some players while appeasing others. And everyone deserves to give their feedback in situations like these.

[Gentleboy]

I do not want to see my community fetishized in the game and that happens every now and then. "Traps" and anime fetishism is something rampant on the internet and me saying representation is good every now and then pertains to literally that and that alone.

Call an elf a sharp ear
Call a mul an abomination
Dance on the line of consent

All good with me.

What's not good is using tropes and real world/internet shit and putting it in game. To be clear: I do think that the game world recently has started to show issues with gender and sexuality in recent times more than issues of real life race.

And another thing I noticed, the character descriptions have been so good lately! Honestly. Not every woman has plush lips, toned thighs, and ample bosom.

I do think we need more female representation in power. I don't care who gets picked as long as they do their job really well, yeah. But, I think a lot of people hide their gender cause there's a feeling of a difference in treatment in the discord and forum when you are a woman.

Am I dead wrong? Maybe.
Do I have saved examples? Yes.
Does what bothers me bother you? Maybe not.

But instead of just saying you're wrong and telling me to get off my sensitive ass, imagine for a moment that someone portrayed you as a sexual item and that your only character trait is being queer or a woman. That, I do not like.