Content and creation

[Awentawa]

Training pits.

Honestly this seems like something a player could easily do in an apartment.

Oh you wanna train? Amos shows up outside the Gaj and shouts that it's training time and then we all pay him 30 sids and follow him to his apartment.

Hell, you could probably do this twice a "week" and make a few small each time which would more than pay for rent+bribes. Plus the networking opportunities...

[HeeBeeGB]

RE: Wilderness Quit / Camping

I think the reliance on another PC to have the capability to make the camp sort of reduces the idea of 'people who don't have this perk shouldn't be out in the wilderness to begin with'. Classes like Raider certainly should be out in the wilds, but they don't have wilderness quit. Classes like Fighter don't even get Ride (!) and having cross-class synergy increases interaction rather than reduces it, IMHO.

Going on long ranges into the great unknown shouldn't rely on which class you are from the gates -- it should matter who you bring with you. Imagine LoTR, but everyone had to be Class Stalker.

In essence, all that I would ask for that would be cool is:

-Those who have wilderness quit can make a room wilderness quit with proper materials. People who quit out there cannot use it more than that one time (Think an IC version of Quit OOC).

-Campfires are made MUCH easier to make. They are terribly esoteric right now, requiring multiple materials and kindling and so on. I'd prefer that the campfire object be easier to make (one or two foraged items) and needing to be refilled with fuel. Honestly, I'd like if wilderness-minded classes could just craft a campfire out of RP'd materials once per IC day. I typically see when people are roughing it and want to make a campfire, they spend the entire night looking for materials, and then it's daytime.

[Dresan]

Training pits.

Honestly this seems like something a player could easily do in an apartment.

Yes. It would be nice to see that Indy players don't have to keep resorting to sparring in their very tiny apartments because the only other viable option is to rent a warehouse or go somewhere even more potentially dangerous to spar.

Perhaps not something you find in Allanak, but in places like Redstorm and Luirs these fighting pits would be very well used and enjoyed by everyone. The potential for gambling would be great too.

[Brytta Léofa]

Campfires:

-Campfires are made MUCH easier to make. They are terribly esoteric right now, requiring multiple materials and kindling and so on. I'd prefer that the campfire object be easier to make (one or two foraged items) and needing to be refilled with fuel. Honestly, I'd like if wilderness-minded classes could just craft a campfire out of RP'd materials once per IC day. I typically see when people are roughing it and want to make a campfire, they spend the entire night looking for materials, and then it's daytime.

Your basic southern dung-fire isn't so bad, but they're all a little material-heavy to make all the time. My slightly contrary suggestions:
- Easier fires: Reduce the recipe requirements by 1 piece. Consider eliminating kindling.
- Less spammy fires: Expire campfire objects from the room as with corpse decay. (Maybe this happens already?)
- More necessary fires: Allow low-level regional baddies, such as scrabs and scorpions, to see in the dark so they can roll up and attack you. (Don't give this to spiders because fuck that.)

Wilderness Quit, terrible-ideas-discuss:
- DON'T simplify campfire recipes; however: a tent becomes quit-safe if it's in a room with a campfire.

...I actually love this a lot. It gives adequate code support to anybody who wants to temporarily base a group in the wilderness, while requiring equipment (tent), material (fuel), and ongoing effort to maintain a viable site, and leaves the site vulnerable to destruction. Wilderness-quit PCs retain substantial advantages: they can camp without equipment while leaving little trace.

[th3kaiser]

Pretty sure staff have definitively said the inside of tents will never be a quit room. There's some funkiness around them being destroyable and the like. I've had bugs before where I entered one tent and then stepped outside and was on the opposite side of the world.(I just don't think code will make this particular option an easy one.)

But other than that I'd be down! If you wanna leave your 1000+ coin tent in a room just to log out? Go for it. That tent's mine now.

[Dresan]

I rather see anyone with the wilderness quit skill be able to make camp for people. As in make an area into quit safe place for everyone temporarily.

In cases of emergency there is already ooc quit. For everything else, wastelander is an extended sub-guild.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe one of the changes they made with classes is that while ride is useful skill if you want to ride early on, combat classes can all eventually ride hands free if they get skilled enough with dual wield/two-handed (not sure if shield use is included in that for combat heavy)   

In short if you really want this skill, you should should just take it as part of a class or extended sub-guild or with my suggestion above hopefully someday just travel with someone that can help you quit in the wilderness.

[ChuciPeppers]

RE: Eliminating NPC cooks:

You would think that with a playerbase that keeps shrinking in ways that keep killing more and more options, and a years long trendline showing no reverse of the downward numbers trend, that foresight would indicate that it's a BAD idea to make you require a million characters around for a million different things, because all that does is make bigger parts of the roles that still exist unplayable unless you luck into a constantly dwindling resource. That seems very confusing as a design choice.

Edit to clarify what choice I'm referring to from the previous page.

[triste]

RE: Eliminating NPC cooks:

You would think that with a playerbase that keeps shrinking in ways that keep killing more and more options, and a years long trendline showing no reverse of the downward numbers trend, that foresight would indicate that it's a BAD idea to make you require a million characters around for a million different things, because all that does is make bigger parts of the roles that still exist unplayable unless you luck into a constantly dwindling resource. That seems very confusing as a design choice.

Edit to clarify what choice I'm referring to from the previous page.

I agree with the reasoning here, but cooking is a somewhat exceptional case because it's so underutilized right now. People were just joking on the Discord about what a useless subguild Master Chef is. The only useful skill the subguild seems to have in many peoples' eyes is skinning: master cooking is nothing more than a "flavor" skill, pardon the pun.

OP for this topic fleshed it out well. This is another one of those things where players can "be the change" and start a cooking renaissance similar to the French court at Versailles, but OP raises a good point about how automatically getting luxury dishes from NPCs eliminates that need and reduces the likelihood of this ever happening.

[Dresan]

In a lesser scale then farming, potted plants:

There are plenty of plants with useful herbs out there. I think it would make sense that some people prefer to grow them at times.

Prepared 'seeds' could be crafted using floristry skill using herbs/seeds collected from the plant. You would need to buy a pot with soil (money sink) and plant it. Pots would require watering semi-regularly(money sink). Eventually a plant would grow and produce herbs. If not watered a plant will not grow/wither.

If watered regularly plants would produce herbs/seeds a few times before dying. Dung/magick water(money/time sink) would help improve growth, life and produce of a plant. All herbs, some good and even some poison plants could be grown (not heramide of course). If plants are not taken care of they will dry out and wither or get too old they will need to be found in the wild once again, by someone with floristry skill. 

Keeping potted plants would be a more time and money consuming venture then running out and just gathering the herbs from the wild. However, some rarer plants and herbs would be clearly very nice to keep especially if they don't grow locally.

While i am thinking of using floristy as a required skill, I am also thinking it might be great for it to be a planting/farming skill very much like drawing skill that everyone can learn with practice. 

[gotdamnmiracle]

In regards too the cooking skill, I wish that it had some recipes that were less effective (more difficult) versions of the tanning skill, or rendered raw hide and other low quality leather items. It's really frustrating to have a good haul of leathers and nothing to do with them because the shops are full. Additionally, and I know it may not be part of the game, but even I, a guy who's never skinned anything know the premise of brain-tanning hides. In a world where hunting is so commonplace you'd think the knowledge would be extremely commonplace and available.

Regarding the fighting pits, why not just have the Arena open to the public between events. It's strange to me that a huge plot of land sits unused 99% of the time and lore wise I believe even the gladiators aren't using it to train in. They could charge admission and every short-lived indie company could use it as an alternative (like 50-100 sid per person) instead of a warehouse they own for the express purpose of sparring in and storing rocks. It could also be overseen by the sabers as a duty (like once a week) and would explain how it's kept relatively safe.

[Dresan]

I would love to see Elkrosian elementalists completely high magicked/retconned out of the game. With thier abilities recycled and infused in to the 15 magickal subclasses we currently have to to further make them interesting and unique.

It feels like this has happened somewhat but feels like a wet loose thread that just needs to be finally yanked.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I would love to see Elkrosian elementalists completely high magicked/retconned out of the game. With thier abilities recycled and infused in to the 15 magickal subclasses we currently have to to further make them interesting and unique.

It feels like this has happened somewhat but feels like a wet loose thread that just needs to be finally yanked.

Were elkro really that OP/bugged that there's no way to properly create a subclass analog? I've noticed the dispersal of elkro stuff, but am equally wary, I think, of them being turned into a subclass because after playing one specific subclass I noticed that ALL of the bite was gone out of the class, and a lot of the subclasses appeared to be built around one specific very useful spell, with lots of little frills attached. The new subclasses feel like "One easy trick to alter reality. Templars hate him!"  more than a balanced or well rounded choice.

[triste]

...I noticed that ALL of the bite was gone out of the class, and a lot of the subclasses appeared to be built around one specific very useful spell, with lots of little frills attached. The new subclasses feel like "One easy trick to alter reality. Templars hate him!"  more than a balanced or well rounded choice.

This made me laugh because it's so true.

For touched gicker classes this completely makes sense, and I love that. I absolutely adore that touched gickers have one to two flashy tricks, it creates more of a feeling of a "Spellsword" in Elder Scrolls or warrior/wizard dual class in Dungeons and Dragons.

For other subguilds though, I agree even they can feel like a one trick pony, and that is a real bummer when you pick one and find that out. Agreed, I'd love to see all non-touched magick subguilds have a little more depth/breadth.

While I miss full magickers, I am glad for the revisions because the utter lack of combat and outdoors skills made them easily sniffable and unfun to an extent. But beefing up the non-touched subguilds would rock.

[Lizzie]

I would love to see Elkrosian elementalists completely high magicked/retconned out of the game. With thier abilities recycled and infused in to the 15 magickal subclasses we currently have to to further make them interesting and unique.

It feels like this has happened somewhat but feels like a wet loose thread that just needs to be finally yanked.

Were elkro really that OP/bugged that there's no way to properly create a subclass analog? I've noticed the dispersal of elkro stuff, but am equally wary, I think, of them being turned into a subclass because after playing one specific subclass I noticed that ALL of the bite was gone out of the class, and a lot of the subclasses appeared to be built around one specific very useful spell, with lots of little frills attached. The new subclasses feel like "One easy trick to alter reality. Templars hate him!"  more than a balanced or well rounded choice.

The only thing the main class, on its own, was any good at was combat. They were useless in every other possible way.

Love, player of the last remaining Elkrosan in the game, who was still playing her after they shut them down.

[Dresan]

The thing is many of the main classes have so much bite all on their own within their own element, that any subclass just really help give them another element to their characters RP but doesn't really define them. In short, even magickers feel like people first now, not just mysterious casters (though they can certainly still be played that way)

On that note, I hope that once the economy work is complete and coin generation is normalized and controlled better, it'll be crafters who rule the world. I really like some of the subtle changes that are being done in that regard so far.

[Lotion]

Problem:
The game crashes a lot and sometimes this happens when your backpack is on the ground which seems to happen the most often during sparring. Losing the items you to have with you at all times until staff manages to fulfill your reimbursement request really sucks because it's a vital part of agency. Having your items destroyed by a game glitch and having to wait days to get them back is incredibly demotivating and absolutely has a profound negative impact on RP.

Potential solution:
I'm not claiming it is perfect, there's probably some small problem but I'm posting it on the gdb instead of using the idea tool so that the best possible idea can be found.
Allow certain rooms to be temporary save rooms (referred to as tsave from here on out) which will sometimes activate and deactivate so that items in them will be preserved for a crash but not an intended reboot. A tsave room would not indicate to players when it starts or stops saving its contents because there might be sneaky people sneaking around doing sneaky stuff.

Conditions to turn it into a save room:
* A player logs in to the room (it's also a quit room, someone did wilderness quit, or did quit ooc)
* A player enters the room (gickery or just mundane walk/climb/sneak/run/etc.)

Conditions to deactivate it as a save room:
* The only remaining player in the room quits
* The only remaining player in the room leaves (gickery or just walking)

I believe this would be a good way to prevent people's bags from being destroyed in the event of a crash while they are on the ground in a sparring hall.

tl;dr make it so the sparring rooms are save rooms if at least one person is inside to protect the precious runner backpacks aren't lost in crashes

[Shabago]

Locked for now, as mentioned in the earlier post. I'll try to get more answers out over the next couple of days, then reopen one of the threads to further replies as wished/warranted.

[Shabago]

What did I miss, if anything? Rebuttals? Let's avoid more wishes/additions at this stage and focus on what's been put forth for discussion.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Status of tweaking magick subguilds. I sent in a request about the Nilazi subguild in specific and it seems like others echo similar issues for different subguilds. Will we be seeing a change in the spell suite for some of these subguilds or new spells added entirely? When should we expect to see those changes? Will they be represented in game by a planned event?

For reference my request was a year ago and I was assured it had sparked staff discussion and that's the last I've heard of it.

[tiny rainbow]

What did I miss, if anything? Rebuttals? Let's avoid more wishes/additions at this stage and focus on what's been put forth for discussion.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55741.msg1047564.html#msg1047564 !

The helpfiles I think are already linked from the game to the website so that the same files are kept updated between each, what could be interesting is if there was a website button that could auto-fill the current contents of the help file into the form for editing for a new Request category "Helpfile update suggestion" - I think that would be a good way to get stuff kept more current and with helpful little things that people tend to notice for new people (think and feel are missing from the new player guide on the website as well, they are both quite hidden)



(I posted similar about wagons on the release note discussion thread which has a lot of good ideas on sometimes there, about 2 months waaay back before anything about a new wagon-centric group)
Wagon combat! Try turn around the thing of such things being able to be used in a cheesy manner to avoid interactions with mekillots and other player characters, especially when no staff is around to allow them to be attacked since the only other alternative is to enter the wagon and kill the guard NPCs (I'm also figuring staff would expect to be told about killing "special" NPCs first maybe? Even though wagons are smaller without virtual crew?)

This would mean that wagons are awkward in a lot of ways by putting an unbalanced onus on the attacker to clear things with staff, unless the riders also need to notify staff in advance before moving wagons and arrange a time for wagon movements to be overseen, which could be a good idea (it's always through dangerous territory), they seem very cheese at the moment, it could be balanced out by making wagons more realistic to deal with from the outside to slow or stop them rather than silly memey just zooming past everything in the known due to it being an "object" rather than a NPC that can be attacked - Targeting rope connecting the harness, the wheels, making the puller NPCs stampede, or lighting the things on fire if people hit it enough times with a torch Make them like a boss monster!


Cart combat! Instead of having to incapacitate the pilot or every one of the animals to stop a cart (and everyone on it) moving (because you need to be able to ride it to be able to use the unharness command - the help files should also probably be updated for the elves to let them know if using the command for brief moments like that is allowed, as well as jumping on things with the intent of attacking and not riding on them, it's not clear lore-wise at the moment though there's this:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Dune%20Stalkers

caravans that are hit by Dune Stalker raiding crews are usually unaware of danger until the first few bodies tumble off the wagon

Wagon+cart damage!
I think this would also add more RP business+plot hooks for people with the wagonmaking skill to repair them after they have been attacked maybe


Also maybe could also be a nice idea to put in the option to sabotage carts/wagons (with risk of it being noticed both during and after if someone takes the care to inspect the moving parts before setting off) if someone actually manages to jump on top of a moving cart to cut the harness, or infiltrate a wagon to disconnect moorings and such while they are on board making it unable to move again until it gets fixed and maybe need a rescue group to come - Fun chances for adventures and intrigue, rather than holes being the main nemesis of wagons

[tapas]

"Outside the Known" force.

This has likewise been something to come up a few times on staff-side chatter. As a general rule, the team seems agreeable to the idea on paper, much like some of you in the player base at large. It has it's appeal and a pretty decent list of pro's. There are some cons attached to it as well.

Q: Why were they never mentioned anywhere in game legend? A: They were outside of the Known!
Q: Ok, if outside of the Known, how are they getting into the known? A: Skimmers over the silt! (example)
Q: Ah, but the silt in enclosed by cliffs - where are they getting through? A: An earthquake broke a hole?
Q: Ok, so an event that never occurred in game happened off screen allowing this new race? How do players interact with them? A: Players can set sail to their homeland or see them when they come ashore, in angry/peaceful fashion?
Q: So, an area even further out than Tuluk that requires mass building, and would take a big chunk away from condensed play zones and thus, utterly eliminate the point of Tuluk's closure?
A: This is awkward.

This is cringe inducing to read. It evokes the wrong way to write in additions to the game and the wrong way to think of the game as a whole.

First of all, this isn't a novel we're playing in. It's a game. If there's an improvement to me made, the response shouldn't be "But does it fit in the world?". It should be "Will this improve gameplay dynamics/emergent narrative?". I don't know if an outside force would improve game play dynamics, or allow for better emergent narratives. But it shouldn't be dismissed because someone can't figure out how the they got over the impassible silt cliffs.

Secondly Armageddon is something like a novel in other ways. Armageddon staff have this amazing power called AUTHORSHIP. There's already so much stuff that barely works or barely fits into the game at all. Moreover staff have previously removed plenty of content (this isn't a complaint) from the game world, that have even resulted in revisions of the history page. The game has been changed in the past just to fit new systems of content. Reaches have been removed, talking to elemental has been removed, flash powder has been removed. These were all parts of the game's canon at one point and they were written out because of their effects on game dynamics. (this still isn't a complaint) There's no reason why something can't be written into the game in favor of new canon. To take the silt cliffs as an example, it just doesn't have to be more complicated than "Oh look, a new passage through the cliffs has been discovered." Templars in Tuluk were changed because that large asshole said so. Like, come on.

TLDR
Good reasons to change content in the game.
"It improves immersion/gives more stuff to do/improves social/combat dynamics/creates oportunities for emergent narratives, etc."

Bad reasons not to change content in the game.
"Ughh! We can't fit it into existing lore."

[Dresan]

As an interesting note to the above, Zelda game makers often create their mechanics and dungeons first and then add story for it to make sense not the other way around.

GMH Flophouses

In theory, I like this. In practice, I'm not so sure it would fly. As it stands right now, getting employees/minions to GMH or Noble Houses both seem to be a challenge. Reducing a perk for the role may well just make the issue all the worse. Granted, it could be unrelated to perks and merely people want their 'freedom RP' or coin making ability. Whatever the reason may be. I'll give it some further consideration.

Perhaps not GMH or noble house employees one would think they have both the best perks but also the least number of openings. I already talked in another thread that I don't think its perks that is makes these roles unattractive.

I think clans, especially popular clans providing hangout places isolated from the rest of the game is not a good thing. There are sometimes 60 people in the game and the city feels utterly empty. If this is an issue about someone walking in and stealing the excessive stuff from clan's storehouses, then just make them steal proof or better yet remove them completely and force clan members to decide what they need and what they don't with more limited storage space. Other than a secure training area and maybe and a storage area for full members, the rest of the compound should literally be an open area anyone can wander into with a cook that would only serve food/water to clan members.     

[Dresan]

Also what about potted plants? You are basically trading much coins for convenience of having herbs and poisons growing within the city.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think the idea of the setting is that agriculture is some sort of closely guarded secret. Like house Rennick (I think) is the only one growing gardens and there are zero farmer commoners. It's more of  a military or state knowledge right up there with troop tactics and magical shit, which makes sense in a sort of way because if you can't feed an army you aren't a threat. I'm willing to write it off that Zalanthas is so ecologically fucked that you either need magick or some hyper specific care to grow even normal crops. The stuff that grows wild just happens to have gotten lucky.

However, this is as good of a jumping off point as any, I wanted to ask if there's been any further discussion about methods to use patches (as in salt patches) or massive corpses in other forms of foraging? Right now everyone who's played for a few years knows the general location of every plant in game, so transitioning to random patch styles that grow randomly in each biome would be great. Additionally it would prompt better foraging as a skill because it's pretty easy to miss good kalans in a patch or just waste your energy crunching around in brush before you find anything worth the effort.

Please keep in mind this may be a code question, but the code already exists in game and wouldn't need to change its form in any way. You'd just change white cube of salt to ripe blue kalan and red lump of salt to moldy kalan fruit. Easy peasy.

Where are we at with this?

Apologies, in retrospect I'm coming into this with my questions late.

[Kyviantre]

I think the idea of the setting is that agriculture is some sort of closely guarded secret. Like house Rennick (I think) is the only one growing gardens and there are zero farmer commoners.

Isn't Yaroch (and other villages around Allanak) full of farmer commoners...?  I've met a handful of 'farmers coming for a better life in the city' PCs from Yaroch over the years.