New Player will not be Returning

[LindseyBalboa]

Okay so this thread is still going on and getting weird.

Any game I've ever staffed gets channel or post notifications when PCs die, including how they died, where, what time. There aren't undocumented deaths going on. Someone might feasibly chase someone into death via shield wall or npc, I guess. PK reports aren't to let staff know that someone died, it's to let staff know the reasons why they died in case of in game investigation or OOC policy issues.

[valeria]

This discussion makes me want to poll the community to see what the most PCs killed on a single character was. I'm sure some of those PKers out there would love to brag about a number, but maybe an anonymous poll would be better...

This probably wouldn't be useful unless it was in an average per period of time format.  If I've killed 10 characters on 1 PC, but they were around for a year, it's a lot different than if I killed 10 characters on 1 PC who was around for 1 month.

[Lizzie]

Someone else brought up a good point:

The system doesn't know who shot the bow, when an arrow kills a PC. Or slung the stone, threw the dagger, or shot the crossbow. They don't see that it was a PK at all. They only see that Amos was killed by an arrow, amen.

[KittenLicks]

Is that confirmed? I know in one of my account notes I've got the opposite with npc's: <character> has been killed by something shot by the hulking, bent-backed gith woman.

[Lizzie]

I might be confusing it with poisoned missile objects. If someone shoots a poisoned arrow at you, and you die from the effects of the poison, the line in your report says you were killed by poison, not by a person.

[Dar]

Brokkr had a way to give "some" data that was easy to gather. Probably took him a few min.

I assume doing it in such a vast detail as it's requested would require more effort. Enough of it to balance if it's even worth  it. But regardless, let's give the guy time to actually reply. Either with data, or a voiced unwillingness to spend the time to grab it.

Because the last page of this threads conversations is people trying to prove their preferred view of the game (people pk left and right vs people never pk) via variables that they do not know about. Just guesstimation and theory crafting based on extrapolated evidence that's been built on some more guesswork.

If it's that important for you to know that data, bug staff enough to convince them to give it. But please don't post your own guesstimation that's based on a puff of farts.

[Brokkr]

All of Staff have access to the request tool.  A far more limited set of people have access to the actual database.

As for the original post.  Not everyone is looking for the kind of game that Armageddon is.  I am happy when Armageddon matches what a new player is looking for.  I don't shed a tear when it doesn't, however, as we are not looking to water down the experience, for example, by letting folks know "why" they were killed rather than sometimes having it be an eternal question mark.

[tapas]

The op got kicked in the nuts by the game's shitty pvp culture. They are understandably frustrated and confused for it.

I can tolerate the "this isn't the game for you" or the "you just want a watered down game" mantras from some of the other GDB blowhards. But I find it disappointing coming from a staff member.

[FamousAmos]

The "I won't shed a tear" part comes off rather arrogant, particularly from a staff member.

[Riev]

The "I won't shed a tear" part comes off rather arrogant, particularly from a staff member.

This is actually incredibly distressing coming from not just a staff member, but one of the three people who are in charge of the game at the top levels.

Its a shame, no other way to put it. Your actions shame all of us.

[HavokBlue]

I think that's an unfair reading of Brokkr's post.

If I go to play Achaea expecting a permadeath RPI and am frustrated upon finding it isn't a permadeath RPI, the onus is not on the staff of Achaea or players to turn it into a permadeath RPI. It's on me to find the game I'm looking to play.

Part of the Armageddon experience is that sometimes your PC dies, and sometimes it sucks ass and you feel shitty about it. It's happened to every single one of us. It's fair to debate the culture that leads to this sort of thing and it's fair to debate staff policies around it, but at the end of the day, Armageddon is a permadeath game where PCs sometimes kill other PCs. It is a game set in a world where every living being is in a bloody competition for survival and some of those living beings are played by other players.

We can do what we can to address any sort of culture of carelessness that leads to players killing other PCs out of hand with little regard for the larger narrative or story other folks may be trying to play out, but it's so terribly difficult to set out hard definitions for any of this without fundamentally changing what Armageddon is. That's precisely why staff handle PK on a case by case basis.

[LindseyBalboa]

The "I won't shed a tear" part comes off rather arrogant, particularly from a staff member.

This is actually incredibly distressing coming from not just a staff member, but one of the three people who are in charge of the game at the top levels.

Its a shame, no other way to put it. Your actions shame all of us.

... No, it doesn't. That's so dramatic! Think of a MU* as being invited into someone's living room for a DM'd game. They're freely inviting anyone to play, discuss the game, argue with them about how the game should be, make suggestions. Sometimes invitees even tell them they're assholes, and sometimes they are. But there's no onus on the host to change the game if someone doesn't like it.

MU*s aren't purchased/packaged games. They're just online gatherings of nerds who want to pretend to be elves and magicians and Romans and sometimes furries and whatever else the community is roleplaying about. If someone comes in and doesn't like the game they've been invited to roleplay out, why would the onus be on the host, anymore than it would be if someone were invited into someones home and decided the DM'd game wasn't to their liking.

A new player didn't like the way he was PK'd. He gave it a second chance, and didn't like how the stat system is set up, specifically because he got poor rolls. It's... not that big of an issue. The doors are always open for the new player to try again if they want to.

[Dar]

Yeaaaah. I mean if the guy got killed by some 0 day dwarf straight out of chargen without any word, or rp, or anything. Then after that guy posts a thread about it and gets a "leave if you want, we don't give a fuck" from a staffer. That would be shameful.


But if the guy gets killed through a roleplayed out series of events and then posts a thread saying he didn't "deserve" to die. Then I personally don't see any problem with a statement, "the world of this game is harsh. Unfairness is one of its selling features. If it appeals to you - great. If you choose to leave because the theme doesn't appeal to you - I'm not gonna cry about it."

[Lizzie]

Yeaaaah. I mean if the guy got killed by some 0 day dwarf straight out of chargen without any word, or to, or anything. Then after that guy posts a thread about it and gets a "leave if you want, we don't give a fuck" from a staffer. That would be shameful.


But if the guy gets killed through a roleplayed out series of events and then posts a thread saying he didn't "deserve" to die. Then I personally don't see any problem with a statement, "the world of this game is harsh. Unfairness is one of its selling features. If it appeals to you - great. If you choose to leave because the theme doesn't appeal to you - I'm not gonna cry about it."

^^^ what he said.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Yea. I gotta support Brokkr and the others on this one. I mean, we have all had PC's that were killed by others and we are all still here because we love this game. I know there are probably a couple of regular players that PK a lot, but I think most of us are here for the superior RP and grittiness that this game, and it's players provides.

[Brokkr]

I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

Riev, read this again.  Worried about the negative that happened to their character actually being related to what their character did?  This may not be the game for them, since betrayal, and the the misdirection that comes along with that is an awesome part of the game.  Not knowing the actual story, or who really did what, also awesome parts of the game. I absolutely want to retain new players who think of that as awesome.

If they think of that as a negative, this may not be the game for them.  That is ok.  Armageddon isn't everyone's cup of tequila, nor is it meant to be.

[Riev]

The issue I have is that I agree. I was there. I fully admit I saw the scene.

The concern is the attitude towards it, coming from one of the people's whose job it is to shape the game's direction and culture, and the attitude is "I don't shed a tear". It is your choice of words, that makes you come across as prickly and dismissive of what happened.

I wouldn't expect the game to change. I would expect the head of the game to say "It is unfortunate the game didn't match their expectations, but we aren't going to make sweeping changes to accommodate".

"I don't shed a tear" is just rude.

[Brokkr]

Except that it isn't unfortunate.  It just is.

It would have been fortunate if what they wanted in a game matched what we offer, but it isn't unfortunate when that isn't the case. We can't cry and moan for every person that this game isn't a fit for. Nor do we have to wear the kid's gloves when it happens.

[JBlack]

Yo.

This isn't coming from a place of anger or discontent with the world or staff of Armageddon. People who disparage the work of staff dont see or know how much work goes into maintaining any rp game or know the pains of game mastering for a bunch of whiny people. However, I'm deeply concerned... my anecdotal experience was filled to the brink of conflict, secrets, and players trying to kill me right out the box.. while all of the stuff may be due to the areas of game and entirely anecdotal, I felt Some of it was warranted, and some of it far, far less so. If I was brand spanking new, I know I would've died too..

The world won't get made more gracious by my whining either. The systems in place are inherently biased against new players. You get that from karma, you get that from the steep learning curve, and everybodies who I recruit quit do to the applications or complexities of a text game. SO it's true this game isn't meant for everybody, and the finite characters we build and lose leave us with a gap that we don't get to grieve over sometimes since no one understands it.

But I implore you not make potential newbies feel less comfortable about it. I worry about Armageddon's future because it's a fun setting. But you gotta remember it's nothing without people, and persistent world servers die without new players. You're not expected to shed tears for the painful loss or the time that gets wasted in the game by the characters that come, are killed, and are inevitably forgotten like grains of sand dropped into a desert. Now, when you say I'm not going to shed a tear if you leave, even if it's true, it makes people including me, feel like their time means nothing. It's seen as unappreciated.. New players shouldn't immediately feel like new victims for murder. We deserve better than that.

I'm writing in hopes of seeing some positive come from some pain.. never as another voice set to whittle down the efforts of players who pvp or staff who monitor it.Or crying because something didn't go my way, because that'd be as far from the truth as possible. Another thread or staff dialogue should be opened about specifically player retention. I'd like to see more posts for publicity, outreach, or how to improve the face of Arm... or how that new players can actually reach out to staff even? With a glimpse at other mediums people use to voice in like reddit, potential players think staff are boogeymen and players are all obnoxious unempathetic dotards. Or worse, older players have their views tainted. And in an age of disinformation, people will also buy into the toxic, duplicitous shit. Being view as extra callous won't help improve.

[Cordon]

 To the people that I may have taking something out on, I am sorry for not understanding the depth and devotion put into the PCs and this game in general. Was a point in my life that things were very rough and making suicidal PCs were an outlet for me. I know my warpath of emotions left some upset and I regret this today after understanding what all is involved to keep this game at the level that it runs at.
  Years later and no karma.. just shows me I still have much to amend for and give back before I even come close to breaking even with the damage I had done.. this have changed in my life and I got past my problems, much to thank for the staff creating a place for my mind to heal. I don't pass up a chance to bring a newb under my wing when I can.

To thos I may of upset I am truly sorry and to the staff, you have a life time of gratitude coming your way.           -Cordon