New Player will not be Returning

[Hauwke]

I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

People who spam walk away while getting being punished bother me so much too. In fact, there was a well know character recently that did it, and BRAGGED about spam walking out.

[kahuna]

I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

I am not referencing being attacked in your compound. I am referencing PCs with the clan dump command utilizing it before attempting to murder/PK another PC inside the compound of which has shown no aggression and is just going about their business doing their job.

[triste]

I am not referencing being attacked in your compound. I am referencing PCs with the clan dump command utilizing it before attempting to murder/PK another PC inside the compound of which has shown no aggression and is just going about their business doing their job.

Alright I just said this thread isn't a catch all for player grievances but I will agree with this, 100%, and having been the victim of this cheap tactic multiple times I will say it it something that has pissed me off.

It pissed me off, it was a weak play by my characters' adversaries, but it didn't make me want to quit.

I am not sure the derailed discussion here is going to produce some solution for the OP. All we can and should do in this thread is empathize with OP, encourage them to come back because they are reacting to one bad experience out of many possible good experiences this game can provide. I am not sure how enumerating bad experiences help.

[tapas]

First of all. Don't listen to anyone that tells you it's not bullshit. You didn't need to lose your character. The player on the other side of the screen just didn't give a fuck. And that's just something you need to deal with while playing this mud.

Secondly. Surviving in Armageddon is often a compromise between role play and ooc motivated behaviors. You need to check the right boxes, make the right allies, avoid certain areas, elevate your characters to Stepford levels of agreeableness. All of which are honestly suspect if you take a completely in character perspective. Nor would I expect any of these to be evident to a new player.

As an example. The leaders of clans will frequently summon you to their clan compounds so they can trap you and off you ezpz. There's nothing in the documentation that would suggest this is a frequent occurrence. And you would also think that a living breathing world there would be a consequence for this sort of thing. There isn't. And staff don't care. So you as a player just need to adopt the ooc imperative never to visit clan compounds you don't have control over.

This is my cynical take. But I think it's more honest than posts saying "This is Armageddon, death happens sometimes, sorrynotsorry it sucked for you."

Yesterday I wrote this post. I'm going to correct myself and say that staff obviously do care. Though I feel that staff policies and a lack of empathy for other players allow for the above frustration, I shouldn't be using anybody as a punching bag.

[Shabago]

First up, for the OP: From myself and the staff team at large, we're sorry you have come to view the game and/or your fellow players in such a light. If it is of any comfort, I ran back through the logs over your death and was able to follow a long line of communication regarding it, in the RPing sense. No less than six other PCs were involved, there were various back and forth discussions, a standing backstory for the "group/area" you were in with others that wished said group/people caught/killed for valid IC reasons. There was RP leading up to the point of your PC being found and then the death occurred.

Could the scene have been further RP'd out? Sure. I'll agree with you on that.
Could another punishment have been given out rather than death? I sure would think so on that as well.

I'm not interested in dismissing your view and/or criticism with the initial paragraph. I only add that for further perspective for you, and others in this thread, that a single view point isn't always all encompassing and things aren't as they seem on the surface.

Carrying on from there to address a few more points that stuck out to me in this thread:

I am not referencing being attacked in your compound. I am referencing PCs with the clan dump command utilizing it before attempting to murder/PK another PC inside the compound of which has shown no aggression and is just going about their business doing their job.

Alright I just said this thread isn't a catch all for player grievances but I will agree with this, 100%, and having been the victim of this cheap tactic multiple times I will say it it something that has pissed me off.

It pissed me off, it was a weak play by my characters' adversaries, but it didn't make me want to quit.

I am not sure the derailed discussion here is going to produce some solution for the OP. All we can and should do in this thread is empathize with OP, encourage them to come back because they are reacting to one bad experience out of many possible good experiences this game can provide. I am not sure how enumerating bad experiences help.

Staff have quite clearly spoken to leaders that we find this sort of play and/or behaviour to be disappointing. It's no different than an inescapable apartment kill. If we see it, expect consequences for disrupting business as usual.

I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

People who spam walk away while getting being punished bother me so much too. In fact, there was a well know character recently that did it, and BRAGGED about spam walking out.

If someone twinks out of a scene in some fashion that would make zero IC sense, staff are not against receiving a report about it. Options are on the table, ranging anywhere from 1) Finding it not to be a 'twink' escape, 2) Transing them back into the confines they never should have escaped from, 3) Storage/death if terribly over the top. It's an RPI, treat it that way.

I swear there is a large level of PvP occurring. I didn't make a thread but not long ago I literally had a 3 hour PC who knew nobody attacked at random outside the gates and then killed inside after. No emotes at all. If I was a new player I'd legit think this was a hack and slash masquerading as RPI.

Other places are just highly dangerous in general right now and a new player might unintentionally find themselves in the middle of a shitfight. Them being collateral most likely. Not sure what went down with OP but there's definitely some PK horny folks out there right now.

This sounds like the kind of thing you should file a report for. I don't mean that condescendingly and maybe it turns out the other PCs thought they were doing something justified but that's the exact kind of situation worth a look from staff.

Please do. We can't actively monitor everyone.

ETA:

1) On the whole, PKs have been on a downward trend for the past few years.
2) On the whole, new players and those that stick through the initial learning curve have stayed on par for the past few years.
3) On the whole, our peak numbers have risen this year over last.
4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.
5) People who "Don't care." don't spend 10/20/30 hours of their lives each week on a hobby. This goes for players or staff.
6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

[Harmless]

I am very much fine with being killed and I think I more often than not submit a kudos request for being PKed nowadays. Thanks for the murder, guys. Keep it up! (if you can). I submit MORE kudos requests to being AWFULLY punished or tortured or interrogated or branded or scarred or other consent-requiring activities. So, keep that in mind, my fellow armaddicts.

[Hanyo]

Small update:

Decided to try again, and got a REALLY great stats roll, but made myself a little too big and so the concept and background I'd rolled for was suddenly thrown upside down. While that wouldn't be the end of the world it just made me really resentful all over again about my perfectly good character being needlessly ganked! Soooo ... I'm definitely out. I tried once a final time, but the stats were so sup par compared to my first rolls that ALSO really made me resentful.

Some of you were really on point with how I felt (the red shirt comment was fairly on point) and some of you were .... for lack a better term a little condescending (I know the difference between IC / OOC motivations this isn't my first RP experience, nor my first non-consent experience) but I appreciate the relative LACK of (suck it up bitch) or at least that people were nicer about it than I've seen elsewhere. Toodles, I hope you guys enjoy your game.

As for the staff reply .. I never maintained there was no RP just that it wasnt very inclusive and that the 'reasons' I was ganked in fact had nothing to do with me in fact and that that provided a very poor new player experience. If I HAD gone on a needless murder spree I wouldn't have complained you know? I do note that while you've been polite you do try to avoid providing any validation to the fact that I was ganked for something I did not do with no RP on MY end nor any idea why ME except too bad so sad. Remember that new player experience is the onus of you as staff and your veterans. Admittedly not a great endorsement for RP on this mid

Any case I know suiciding is super frowned on so I dont want to keep teyi g when it's not likely to go any better. It's that situation where you had an idea of what you wanted to try and nobody wants to play a char that just leaves the. Resentful or with a sour taste.

[Dar]

Heh. Ironically I like your mentality more then some others. Good luck wherever you go, bud

Personally, I myself quit Arm for about 4 years after a few months of playing my first string of characters. Not for any reason, just IRL things. But personally I found no other mud out there that was remotely as good. Shrug. Good luck, man wherever fate brings us!

[Harmless]

I think I really began to enjoy this game when I realized what a joy it is to lose and be bested. I learned this joy only after my first tastes of success:

0.) My first being PKed. My first character! I was a teenager at the time and not ready for this dangerous setting.

1.) My first companionship. My first breed was mentored by...wait for it...a friendly half giant. A basic but darling relationship that I remembered for years. My third PC. Formative.

2.) My first murder plot. It ended badly! But it was a crazy thrill.

3.) My first deeper romance. It creeped me out even more than anything. I was a servant/crafter of a Merchant House and my character got in a romance with her boss, an Agent. I was enthralled but then I got scared by a stockholm syndrome that crept in and I stored.

4.) My first deep regret. Losing a friendship with the legendary Sweet Roll was a tragic turn of a budding friendship.

5.) My first...you get the idea.

With each, I developed more love for the storylines told here. And if it is not already clear, each one of the above was a loss. A loss that was a successful ending to something else. When I learned to enjoy losing, it unlocked a joy that has kept me steadily enjoying this crazy game for years.

[HavokBlue]

S W E E T   R O L L ! ! !

[Riev]

Is anyone else concerned, a little bit, that two back to back characters were "needlessly" ganked?

Even with RP buildup. Even if he applied in the middle of a Shadow War?

I think it is important to note:

Remember that new player experience is the onus of you as staff and your veterans. Admittedly not a great endorsement for RP on this mid

While I think he meant MUD, the new player experience isn't enough to "get them in, see if they like it". The onus is on ALL of us. Players to provide the experience, and staff to monitor the experience to make sure it is the 'right one'.

If staff are fine with what happened to this player, fine. If they aren't, I do hope they're talking about how to fix it.

[Lizzie]

I feel, Riev, that the "needlessly ganked" phrase indicates the new player needs more time to understand the genre and style of the roleplay, if it happened twice in a row. PK is not always done as a "needed" result of a scene. Sometimes a target is selected because a different target would be preferred but not practical, but a target (any target) is needed and that target happens to be available. My elf example as above is just one of dozens of examples that could come to mind.

Also the OP is still focusing on the fact that he's new, as though people are targeting him because he, the player, is a new player to this game. Most of us have no way of knowing if a player is new.  This might very well be happening! But more often than not, it's the perception of the victim's player, and not the intention of the aggressor's player.

As Shabago pointed out, this particular incident DID have roleplay and a backstory behind the event, there were multiple characters involved, the staff was aware of the situation, and it was all done 100% legit. So "need to PK this very one specific character" might or might not have been a factor in the event, but the event was, in fact, handled properly by the people involved.

This is why the "needlessly" aspect concerns me. It makes me feel as though new players are being given the impression that a PK is only legit if it is "needful."

[Riev]

That's why I put it in quotes. I was able to observe one instance, and I am reserving my own judgement, because what I think shouldn't matter.

But if 2 PCs, back to back, were killed.... and they "don't get the game" as has been so lovely suggested... where is the failing? Is there anything we can do, as a community, to help a new player understand WHY they die?

[Mazy]

Small update:
Decided to try again, and got a REALLY great stats roll, but made myself a little too big and so the concept and background I'd rolled for was suddenly thrown upside down. While that wouldn't be the end of the world it just made me really resentful all over again about my perfectly good character being needlessly ganked! Soooo ... I'm definitely out. I tried once a final time, but the stats were so sup par compared to my first rolls that ALSO really made me resentful.

I feel like I might be misunderstanding. But just in case, I want to tell you that you can actually reroll undo if you're talking about sub par stats on reroll compared to your initial roll.

[LindseyBalboa]

They only say one PC was PK'd, that I'm seeing in that post. The second one had worse stats, so it discouraged the player. Unless I'm missing the part that says a second PC was PK'd, this is making a problem where there isn't one.

[Lizzie]

They only say one PC was PK'd, that I'm seeing in that post. The second one had worse stats, so it discouraged the player. Unless I'm missing the part that says a second PC was PK'd, this is making a problem where there isn't one.

Ah you're right, I re-read it and see the same thing. So no there was only one PK, and the double-punch was just the bad stats on the next PC. Sure it could be discouraging, when I get a "below average" even after a reroll AND reroll undo it's incredibly discouraging. I'm a glutton for punishment and would give it a try anyway but I totally wouldn't ever expect everyone to feel the same way about it.

[tapas]

4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

[Dar]

This is a game where a byn unit found themselves in desert, out of water, and dying of thirst. So they PKed a half elf Runner and drunk his blood to survive. That breed was a total red shirt. He did nothing to provoke his PK.

This is the game where two heartless Nilazies who forgot how to love, have picked an innocent, vibrant, beautiful aide. Kidnapped her, brain washed her that she can bring back her dead lover. Fed on her emotions and lifeblood and when she fell dead as a withered lifeless husk, the nilazies, high on stolen emotions, kanked each other's brains out in the pool of that aides blood.  Total red shirt moment. That aide did nothing to provoke the nilaz.

This is a game where a breed needed to throw suspicion off himself, so he planted a necklace of the woman he killed on a random nobody, then tricked an elf to peek their inventory and report it to a templar. That random nobody died for assassination of a templar aide.  Total red shirt, that guy did nothing, but sat at a bar in the wrong moment and wrong time.

This is a game where a guild leader decides to promote a thug up the rank. So he murders the thugs lover and has the thug deliver her head to her employer as an intimidation tactic for the employer and a loyalty test for the thug. Needless to say the lover had no idea wtf did 'that' come from.

This is a game where a Templar gets bored supervising construction efforts and decides to randomly shoot people with a crossbow, laughing.

Murder, corruption, betrayal.

[number13]

This is a game where a byn unit found themselves in desert, out of water, and dying of thirst. So they PKed a half elf Runner and drunk his blood to survive. That breed was a total red shirt. He did nothing to provoke his PK.

I was that half-elf. I don't remember his name, but he had some sort of mutant patchwork-skin thing going on. I was bored silly of that endless march, my character was about to drop from dehydration. He was dead either way. I intentionally provoked the Sergeant into killing me. In fact, I attacked her first, after accusing her of being a shitty Sarge, of killing her entire unit.

I was playing a red shirt, but willfully so. It was a throw away character in the Byn, who was fated to die on contract. I only heard about the blood drinking part a year or so later, and I was amused that staff had allowed the rest of the unit to survived by drinking a mutant half-elf's nasty blood. Honestly, as many Byn as there were, and as dehydrated as my character was, drinking his blood should not have allowed them to survive, realistically.

That's an example of a good death that people still talk about years later. I've had other good deaths, that occurred naturally, out of the narrative. For which I was a willing and happy participate in the narrative. I must have died to Lord Templar Samos five or six times. I loved it every time. I remember one glorious death where my rogue magicker was hunted down by an impromptu RPT, with literally 20 other players marshaled around to finish my guy off, after he had made a misstep and exposed himself. Awesome. I had a duel to the death with Gage Gritshaw. Fucking awesome.

There's a difference between stuff like that and the mean-spirited PKs I sometimes see in the game, when other narrative results would have been far more interesting for all parties. But death gets justified as "realistic". As if elves casting fart spells is realistic, in a world where everyone has endless-range telepathy, but are somehow deprived of easy access to information and knowledge.

Or worse, people get into a gamist mode where they don't want rivals to come back at them later, and act as if death is the only solution. I played a criminal who made a point out of letting her rivals live, and it was so much more fun that way. (And it wasn't some rival that got her in the end, but an NPC.)

PKing in permadeath game needs to have some buy-in from the person losing the character, or else the most important person in the process is getting shafted.

This is a game where a guild leader decides to promote a thug up the rank. So he murders the thugs lover and has the thug deliver her head to her employer as an intimidation tactic for the employer and a loyalty test for the thug. Needless to say the lover had no idea wtf did 'that' come from.

Boring for the lover, and they lost a character. Shitty result.

[Armaddict]

Hi again,

As a newer player, seeing the responses to this post are both enchanting and disheartening.

I do agree that there's a group of older players who have lived a long time and can deem what characters live and which die. Those characters are able to control the types of personalities we see in the world.

New players are victims to this and it's called a "learning experience". They mess up the lore, misinterperate a rule, etc. it feels like sometimes justice is too harsh and those who are still learning are instead dealt a PK. Then are told to live with it. I think new players should get some kind of feedback on why exactly they died. I think players who kill new players should be asked by staff to write a player report.

Just some thoughts and ideas.

Hey man.  Enjoy yourself, don't take anything on the GDB too seriously.  In the end, -most- of the people talking on here just wing it with our immediate responses to things, and while there are longtime players who get quite good at reaching goals, sometimes those goals have nothing to do with you.  The 'player power structure' is actually kind of a cycling thing with ebbs and flows, and it ends with their characters just as much and they rebuild from scratch.

Sometimes we don't really convey the experience of the game that well to newer players, it's a big shortcoming.  But long-term players die as well, they get pk'd as well, and the stories keep unfolding.  Foster that desire to tell a character's story, mix it with the character's drive to self-preservation, and you'll be kickin' the game in the nuts with cool stuff in no time.

[ArmaJunkie]

Hi again,

As a newer player, seeing the responses to this post are both enchanting and disheartening.

I do agree that there's a group of older players who have lived a long time and can deem what characters live and which die. Those characters are able to control the types of personalities we see in the world.

New players are victims to this and it's called a "learning experience". They mess up the lore, misinterperate a rule, etc. it feels like sometimes justice is too harsh and those who are still learning are instead dealt a PK. Then are told to live with it. I think new players should get some kind of feedback on why exactly they died. I think players who kill new players should be asked by staff to write a player report.

Just some thoughts and ideas.

Hey man.  Enjoy yourself, don't take anything on the GDB too seriously.  In the end, -most- of the people talking on here just wing it with our immediate responses to things, and while there are longtime players who get quite good at reaching goals, sometimes those goals have nothing to do with you.  The 'player power structure' is actually kind of a cycling thing with ebbs and flows, and it ends with their characters just as much and they rebuild from scratch.

Sometimes we don't really convey the experience of the game that well to newer players, it's a big shortcoming.  But long-term players die as well, they get pk'd as well, and the stories keep unfolding.  Foster that desire to tell a character's story, mix it with the character's drive to self-preservation, and you'll be kickin' the game in the nuts with cool stuff in no time.

True dat!

[Shabago]

4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

All out of tinfoil.

[tapas]

4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

All out of tinfoil.

It's got nothing to do with tinfoil.

The reality of playing Armageddon is that you need to actively identify and dodge shitty pk. Part of it has to do with staff policy that allows for some of the shittiness.

I'd love to play the game in a way that focuses on story. Too fucking bad for me that I can't.

[ShaLeah]

4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

All out of tinfoil.

It's got nothing to do with tinfoil.

The reality of playing Armageddon is that you need to actively identify and dodge shitty pk. Part of it has to do with staff policy that allows for some of the shittiness.

I'd love to play the game in a way that focuses on story. Too fucking bad for me that I can't.

I did. For 18 years.  And I  got pk'ed, all the time. Death is part of what makes this game great, that includes PK. Getting pk'ed never stopped me playing for the story, why it's a deterrent for others is personal choice.

And don't tell me about lame PK. Twice I've been PK'ed while AFK and in the last one of those not only was I PK'ed but the player of the murderer ASKED ME OOC'ly if I was ever going to be outside AND one of those involved was a STAFF nilazi... so ... yeah... some pk's are ooc'ly lame, some ic'ly lame. It takes a while to grow into the Armageddon mindset.

Maybe expressing that this is a permadeath pk heavy mud on the descriptor would help.

[Lizzie]

It isn't a "pk-heavy" permadeath mud. That would imply that your character is guaranteed to have a short life because people are running around treating each others characters like NPC mobs. That just flat out isn't true.

MOST roleplay in Armageddon does NOT involve intentionally killing other characters. Most of it is crafters, aides, political folks, low-ranking grunts of clans, independent traders, would-be master thieves - people who would rather do something other than spend their time killing people.

There are a cluster of character (not players - this isn't about players) who are roleplayed as merciless violent people. They are not the majority, they're not even a large minority. It's a small cluster.

Two people killing 10 PCs out of over 150 uniquely-identified login accounts in a RL month's time is not "PK-heavy." If it were 10 people killing those same 10 PCs in a real month's time, THAT would be PK heavy, because that would be 10 different people out of 150 interested in killing PCs, as opposed to 2 people out of 150 killing PCs.

PK is part of the game. It is not required, and it is not usually immediate. Some players who have played their FIRST character in the game, managed to live a decent amount of real-time before they were killed off.  My first character on my old account was around for something like 4 months before she was finally killed by her mob boss. My first character on my other account lived a few months before I finally stored her. No PK at all for her.

The documentation that already exists is clear: this game has a learning curve, it includes PK, it is permadeath, and it is roleplay. The docs also recommend that you read the docs, and there's a walk-through, a "what to know about" section, a "so you're new..." (which you and I both wrote together, if you recall).

There are resources galore for new players. The problem is, we can't force new players to read them. That is exactly the problem, as I see it.