New Player will not be Returning

[Namino]

I'mma be real with y'all.

Reading this thread from an outside perspective is legitimately 150% certifiable bananas.

New player: "I did not have a fun experience and will not be returning."

Chorus of veteran players: "Oh, young one. You actually had the best experience and just don't realize it. You only feel this way because you were having SO much fun. Come back and have more fun!"

Wtf is this. Like the guy can't determine for himself whether or not his time was well invested and if he enjoyed himself? This is verging on creepy abusive relationship style gaslighting. Silly billy, you don't know what happened to you or how to interpret it. Only I know what happened to you and how to interpret it.

This reminds me of how the show runners reacted to the negative criticism of the last season of GoT, lmao. "The ending wasn't bad, you're just salty because it had to end at all, lalala, I can't hear you."

[menrique]

I didn't interpret the 'chorus of veteran players' the same way as you did at all. If anything, I found the responses to be varied and encouraging.

Example: I'm a new player, and even though the docs said that playing a half-elf would have its own role playing challenges, I chose to do it anyway... (btw, I have no idea if this is even close to what happened, but I'm providing an example here) And I got into the game and it seems like every person I meet is treating me like a piece of garbage and then suddenly I'm set up to be killed for something I didn't do! Just the fact that I chose to play a half elf is enough of a completely valid reason for other players (humans and elves included) to persecute me; players which by the way, if my role play is any good at all, have no way of knowing if I am a new player or not. This sort of situation is the kind that a new player could see as being unwelcome, but it's just the way Armageddon is. And rightly so.

So, to the new player that had a bad experience and doesn't want to return, I wish you would give us another chance. Better luck with your next PC.

[Night Queen]

I am actually kind of curious as to how many genuinely new players have been gained and retained in the last few years.

Sometimes this game feels like a clubhouse of the same players year after year.

*raises hand*
Though how long does it have to be to count as retained?

[clown alt]

I am actually kind of curious as to how many genuinely new players have been gained and retained in the last few years.

Sometimes this game feels like a clubhouse of the same players year after year.

*raises hand*
Though how long does it have to be to count as retained?

<3 night queen one of my new favorite newbies

[HavokBlue]

First of all. Don't listen to anyone that tells you it's not bullshit. You didn't need to lose your character. The player on the other side of the screen just didn't give a fuck. And that's just something you need to deal with while playing this mud.

Secondly. Surviving in Armageddon is often a compromise between role play and ooc motivated behaviors. You need to check the right boxes, make the right allies, avoid certain areas, elevate your characters to Stepford levels of agreeableness. All of which are honestly suspect if you take a completely in character perspective. Nor would I expect any of these to be evident to a new player.

As an example. The leaders of clans will frequently summon you to their clan compounds so they can trap you and off you ezpz. There's nothing in the documentation that would suggest this is a frequent occurrence. And you would also think that a living breathing world there would be a consequence for this sort of thing. There isn't. And staff don't care. So you as a player just need to adopt the ooc imperative never to visit clan compounds you don't have control over.

This is my cynical take. But I think it's more honest than posts saying "This is Armageddon, death happens sometimes, sorrynotsorry it sucked for you."

This is a weird and inaccurate take but okay. PK happens in clan compounds but if staff are online there is a 95% chance they're monitoring what's happening and if they're not they require an immediate report. PCs and leaders who exploit clan compounds codedly to instagib people even under IC appropriate circumstances are subject to scrutiny and PCs who use clan compounds to instagib people on flimsier pretexts get in trouble for it.

I'm playing in a clan right now where the docs very expressly prohibit using the clan compound for that with a clear punishment of force storage for PCs who abuse the code.

[HavokBlue]

I'mma be real with y'all.

Reading this thread from an outside perspective is legitimately 150% certifiable bananas.

New player: "I did not have a fun experience and will not be returning."

Chorus of veteran players: "Oh, young one. You actually had the best experience and just don't realize it. You only feel this way because you were having SO much fun. Come back and have more fun!"

Wtf is this. Like the guy can't determine for himself whether or not his time was well invested and if he enjoyed himself? This is verging on creepy abusive relationship style gaslighting. Silly billy, you don't know what happened to you or how to interpret it. Only I know what happened to you and how to interpret it.

This reminds me of how the show runners reacted to the negative criticism of the last season of GoT, lmao. "The ending wasn't bad, you're just salty because it had to end at all, lalala, I can't hear you."

Seems weird to me to equate people playing a permedeath MUD who's primary marketing point is that your PC is going to probably die horribly to domestic abuse but okay.

I see veteran players agreeing that losing a PC to dumb PK sucks ass and that they enjoy the game in spite of or sometimes even because of the risk.

[valeria]

I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

I don't think this is whining. If you think it was really someone being a dick, you could put in a player complaint and have staff take a look. People aren't supposed to kill people without justification.

Unfortunately, no other players will know how long you've been playing. Though, once while in a leadership role, I told staff my player was going to kill a person for breaking a law, and I was asked to cut them slack because they were new. So I know that staff does actively discourage pks on new people if it's a situation they can intervene in.

All that said, at the end of the day, games are meant to be fun. I'm sorry you didn't have a fun time here, and if you're off to different pastures, I hope you find the game you're looking for!

[Dar]

Holy crap, Tapas. Why are you even playing this game if this is your serious opinion. If I genuinely believed what you believe, I wouldnt play it. Thankfully, I dont. 

The amount of negativity that your posts are brimming with concerns me. And I do believe you're wrong on many accounts. Even the description of Lizzie's post on this very thread. 

You gotta lighten up, dude. Or take a break of the game. I'm not trying to run you off, or something. Far from it. But truly. Any hobby should be pursued only if you're actually enjoying it. I love every hour I get to play Arm as there are not many of those available to me. If all you're getting is stress and anguish, then why are you putting yourself through this?

[Gentleboy]

Hi again,

As a newer player, seeing the responses to this post are both enchanting and disheartening.

I do agree that there's a group of older players who have lived a long time and can deem what characters live and which die. Those characters are able to control the types of personalities we see in the world.

New players are victims to this and it's called a "learning experience". They mess up the lore, misinterperate a rule, etc. it feels like sometimes justice is too harsh and those who are still learning are instead dealt a PK. Then are told to live with it. I think new players should get some kind of feedback on why exactly they died. I think players who kill new players should be asked by staff to write a player report.

Just some thoughts and ideas.

[LindseyBalboa]

New players aren't all going to like Armageddon. Just like any other game. From my point of view, it was nice to see people come out and talk about their first deaths, and why they stuck around afterward. After I hit a year, I'll have stories of dumb deaths to share, and I look forward to it.

Beyond that, I don't think a veteran player who played for twenty years and who doesn't play but hasn't ever left the chat or forums can count as 'an outsider.' Not just Namino in this instance, but any of them, and there seem to be a dozen or more. Many of whom come up with constructive criticisms, but certainly not as outsiders of the community.

Last thing, though, and an important one: it's a lot more weird and disconcerting to read someone try to compare online opinions of a game with actual domestic abuse, than it is to read about how people like a game and want others to enjoy it.

[WarriorPoet]

NM.

[Namino]

You know, I wasn't going to post again.

But here I am.

Firstly, I'm not equating the replies in this thread to an abusive relationship. That's obviously not the case. What I am saying is there's gaslighting going on full force up in this thing and it's really not doing any service to this game.

Let's take a look at what the OP said:

[...]it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week?

To paraphrase: I didn't like being killed for non-narrative reasons that seemed contrived, and being treated like a disposable redshirt without any inherent value before I could participate.

Let's look at some of the responses to this:

Loss of a loved character really sucks, especially if you were just getting into it!

Know why it hurts and breaks your heart? Because the game is great.

That is what I'm referring to. The immediate pivot from a player lodging a complaint to people immediately trying to manipulate the conversation into "oh, you only feel this way because of how GREAT the game is and how much fun you were having!"

No, he felt this way because he was made to feel excluded/picked on as a new player by unforgiving and unreasonable circumstances. He said that in his post. He did not say he was posting because he was totally in love with his character and the loss hurt. That hard attempt to spin this into a symptom of something positive was weird and doesn't do any service to this conversation. Attempting to force-define Hanyo's post as a fit of grief over losing a loved character in order to fit your narrative is absolute gaslighting. And that's what I was referring to.

And Warrior Poet, if you're concerned about Armageddon's reputation with new players right now, there's several other trees you need to bark up before this one. A whole forest.

[Is Friday]

I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

Sorry you had a bad experience or didn't enjoy the circumstance leading up to your character's death.

My first experience went like this:
Rolled up a pickpocket, didn't know what to do, wandered outside the gates on foot -- meet a cloaked figure who asked why my PC was wandering around on foot -- got mugged and dumped at the gates without anything but pants and boots. Then my PC begged for food/water for a couple days. Later on my PC met a leader PC who was kind enough to hire them for something simple and semi-useful. I ended up not continuing to play that PC, but I came back to the game because it was such an impactful experience that I later appreciated.

The game has a lot of cons for new players, but if you find yourself interested to try again with a new PC we're always happy to have you.

[RogueGunslinger]

I see a lot of people complaining about unfair death in this game. Are you taking those complaints to staff. And do you feel the situation resolves well after you take it to staff? Like, if this is happening so much why are Players not being punished for it? It sounds like it's either a reporting or a staffing issue.

It honestly seems like staff needs to take a hard-line stance on issues that they're normally treating as close enough to borderline to not do anything about.  Players should be afraid enough about PKing someone poorly that they seriously question their own characters motivations for doing it.

Armageddon is a harsh game in a harsh world but it's meant to be fun. If someone is playing like an asshole(that doesn't mean they're playing an asshole) they need to be reprimanded sternly.

[Nile]

I swear there is a large level of PvP occurring. I didn't make a thread but not long ago I literally had a 3 hour PC who knew nobody attacked at random outside the gates and then killed inside after. No emotes at all. If I was a new player I'd legit think this was a hack and slash masquerading as RPI.

Other places are just highly dangerous in general right now and a new player might unintentionally find themselves in the middle of a shitfight. Them being collateral most likely. Not sure what went down with OP but there's definitely some PK horny folks out there right now.

[Namino]

I cannot speak for Hanyo but I will speak for myself in regard to these kinds of PK. Two of my last three characters died at the hands of another player in open combat. The difference between these two deaths is probably pretty useful for illustrating the point I'm trying to make.

The first death was a 50 day played character, branched weaponry skills, blah blah blah. Huge amount of investment. He died when I got into a fight with another character over the course of an OOC week. Multiple engagements, several days between at a time, lots of jawing over the Way. Eventually, I got an unlucky break and died. The mechanics of the death were sort of lame -- massed peraine arrow spam -- but that's more of a lack of developmental balancing rather than a skill not working as intended. I don't fault the player for that. Overall, 8/10. I felt a lot of things after, but they were what the people in this thread described. Sadness, disappointment because I really enjoyed that character. But overall it felt like a narrative death that fit into the choices I made.  8/10, 2 points deducted for the peraine spam. Remade a character immediately.

The second death was a ~35 days played character, branch weaponry again, blah blah blah, large investment. I met the character that killed him on the same day OOC as I died. We had a disagreement about that character wearing some clan restricted gear to the clan my character belonged to, and my character proposed a non-lethal contest to settle the matter. The millisecond we were out of crimcode, he backstab spammed me. I managed to survive that due to my character's significantly higher combat skill. I chased him down later into the wilderness, where I engineered a city-stealth class' worse nightmare. On foot, no mount, dozens of rooms from the nearest city tile, engaged by a much more mobile and better fighter.

What proceeded to happen: He would type backstab, begin approaching and wait for me to engage. The second I engaged with kill or some other, he would spam flee and run out of the room at top speed, back in, and backstab again before my skill/kill delay had cleared. Then he would spam flee. My character did not have the strength stat to do enough damage as he ran out, back in at full speed with no hide between, and backstab me repeatedly from the front due to kill delay. I died in 2, maybe three backstabs. The scene was so egregious that staff themselves encouraged me to submit a complaint against the player, so I did. In the reply to the complaint, the staff told me that what had happened was code not working as it was intended, and that clearly an honor system between players was not sufficient, and that they would change the code to avoid this scenario.

No, they would not resurrect me.

No, the other player would not be punished, as other players informed me he was still springing around dunking people with backstab cheese thereafter.

To this day, the ability to use the backstab skill in this fashion is unchanged, unless there has been a silent alteration. I wouldn't know by testing, as I never played Armageddon again. Unlike the first death, I did not feel satisfied. It was not earned. There was no narrative movement or the sense that I died due to the choices I made. The feelings I felt, like Hanyo felt, was a sense of pointlessness. Why bother playing, investing, caring about a character if it just gets nuked out on the whim without any buildup or sense to it? Even though my first death was a significantly more invested character, it was the second one that stopped me ever wanting to play again.

It wasn't because I 'loved that character more'. It's because it pulled back the curtain and showed me a level of callousness that meant that that huge swaths of my effort could be immediately wiped out by meaningless, pointless BS and that there wasn't going to be any effort put in to change things. Remember, this is the game where a day 0 dwarf spawned in and nuked a dozens of dayed played character with a single blow before being hacked down. No reasonable staffing crew or playerbase would contend that was legitimate. The character should have been instantly resurrected and the whole event retcon. But that didn't happen. Because preserving the "Murdew, corruwption, betwayal!" of the game has somehow translated into a sense that anything that causes players to suffer is justified inherently.

And that's why Hanyo quit. And me too.

[titansfan]

If it wasn't an issue there wouldn't be so many open discussions about it here and in the discord. Better lesson teaching options than PK need to be supported.

[HavokBlue]

I swear there is a large level of PvP occurring. I didn't make a thread but not long ago I literally had a 3 hour PC who knew nobody attacked at random outside the gates and then killed inside after. No emotes at all. If I was a new player I'd legit think this was a hack and slash masquerading as RPI.

Other places are just highly dangerous in general right now and a new player might unintentionally find themselves in the middle of a shitfight. Them being collateral most likely. Not sure what went down with OP but there's definitely some PK horny folks out there right now.

This sounds like the kind of thing you should file a report for. I don't mean that condescendingly and maybe it turns out the other PCs thought they were doing something justified but that's the exact kind of situation worth a look from staff.

[Vex]

This is, in large part, why I avoid playing in cities.

There are entirely too many sitting-around-bored types, just looking for someone, anyone, to pursue a vendetta against, even if it's mostly or entirely conjured from absolutely nothing. I really do think that, rather than "allanak" and "byn", both of which I've found extremely unsavory lately, newer players might be directed towards one of the human tribal clans as a suggestion.

My first pc, in fact, was almost my last due to very much the same things as the OP suggests. Luckily I was picked up by some tribal pc and entertained, dragged out of the town setting to the greater world, and later came close to becoming a fringe member of their tribe. It turned my game around. Not just someone OK with a newer player, or dragging them around, or whatever.

It was getting OUT of Allanak for a while, and AWAY from the horridly toxic, meta influences, and the kinds of players who were running things at the time, to see that it doesn't represent the entire game, or everything the game has to offer. It was enough, that, despite my first pc death being highly suspect, I grudgingly rolled another.

A new or newer player does, imo, need someone IC to drag them about by the hand, but doing so in an IC context is not exactly easy, especially for those of us who tend towards the less than savory sort of characters, or lone ranger types. In a tribe setting, where pc counts are tighter in my experience, there will be a greater lean towards spending time with newer players, as well as protecting them from some of the incredibly petty predators that get off on 'easy targets', that typically hang around in Luirs and Allanak.

There is typically no reason for random pc to help or even care about another random pc, but a tribe comes with some out of the box, as soon as you start, players you can generally count on to have your back. And that, imo, is exactly what a new player needs, rather than being dumped into Allanak like a naked baby in the woods, where people will spam steal their coins, bait them out the gate "murder plot", or otherwise, use their inexperience against them for an easy inroad to feeling tough in a fantasy setting.

A new player needs other players in their corner, to learn the game, as well as protect them from 'those' kinds of players.

A tribal setting is the easiest way for this to be a thing, imo, without a lot of ooc concessions and hand waving.

A tribe has its own docs that can be focused on, an excuse for being ignorant to the greater world, and innate ties with other players who have every IC reason to want to teach and protect them. It's also instant inclusion in plots, which is more what, I would think, new players trying the game out, would be looking for.

Something does need to be done to give newer players an opportunity to see more of the game and the enjoyment it can offer BEFORE inevitably getting shit on, and given how thoroughly Allanak reflects the truly disgusting nature of the games ooc culture, segregation would seem, to me, the best choice (since cleaning up said culture, is probably impossible) until they're really understanding of the basics of how the game/world works, and how to manage their characters and have a better chance of being competitive in the larger game world.

If we are not willing to make efforts to better the environment for a new players experience, than maybe, we aren't deserving of new players in the first place.

[Lizzie]

I actually like Vex's suggestion for new players to start with one of the tribes. Built-in support system. Some caveats though:

Outside the city is harsh, and no matter how awesome other players are to you, the wandering gith NPC won't know or care that you're a new player.

For the rest of the tribe: if you accept the responsibility of bringing new players into the game and helping them understand the game world, it's an actual responsibility. You can of course have fun with it, but it's an added aspect of your role that you might not be prepared or willing to accept.

Sort of how the Byn is known to take on new players, and current leaders of the Byn know and accept this as a responsibility that goes along with the role, on an OOC level.

I don't see any of the above as "problems" or "issues," but rather just some things to consider before deciding whether or not it's a good idea.

[Vex]

Outside the city is harsh, and no matter how awesome other players are to you, the wandering gith NPC won't know or care that you're a new player.

For the rest of the tribe: if you accept the responsibility of bringing new players into the game and helping them understand the game world, it's an actual responsibility. You can of course have fun with it, but it's an added aspect of your role that you might not be prepared or willing to accept.

Tbh, most areas where the tribal tent spawns rotate, are a breeze. Typically, no hostile npc presence, unless someone has baited them nearby, with lots of dodge-happy small game for skill grindings, easy access to food and free water... once you know where it is, which is, exactly, what makes having a mentor to follow around such a benefit.

Relative to, say, the Vrun, wherein you have the absolute worst of players churning out grief, muls/dwarves/groups running around looking for, basically, any excuse to kill pcs for the compensate, super aggressive ecosystems and poisons everywhere and in every hand, but where only new players won't have easy access to cures, the Tablelands and Gol are absolutely much more new player friendly, imo.

And, at least imo, nobody is more or less responsible for raising newbies, than anyone else. What makes a tribe superior to the Byn, or Kadius, or any other city-focused clan, is that there is usually documentation and, presumably, staff enforcement of said documents, that reinforce 'tribe is family, tribe comes first, take care of the tribe first before the self', or some variation thereof.

Instead of it being a 'byn sarge is put upon with the burden of the newbies', its 'this is how our clan is' and should, at least in theory, mean the raising and helping of said player, through RP with their pc, is more organic and less an ooc construct to plod through out of a sense of obligation. It is the break in character to "go into newbie help mode", when it isn't necessarily in your character to do so, that becomes tiresome for most, I would think.

If we eliminate the 'I help, because they're new and OOC its a nice thing to do' and replace it with 'I help, because they're my blood and kin', it is less a burden and more an opportunity. An opportunity that, if handled right, will become a real asset to the tribe, translating to more power in the game world, which seems to be what most strive for, one way or the other.

The only issue, I suppose, would be how to ensure whatever tribe the newbies are recommended, is reasonably populated across the time zones. Then again, the Byn, and Allanak, are typically rather dead most of the time, outside of pre-peak, peak, and post-peak, but since we need new players to better population the world and time zones... it is a conundrum, and I have no answer for it.

[triste]

The beauty of Armageddon is every character you play can have a completely different story, arc, progression, ending. Sometimes BS happens and you have bad luck. I hope OP tries again another day when they are looking for a good permadeath RPI, because that is what Armageddon is. This thread has become a derailment featuring individual grievances which are a bit besides the point.

[HavokBlue]

Outside the city is harsh, and no matter how awesome other players are to you, the wandering gith NPC won't know or care that you're a new player.

For the rest of the tribe: if you accept the responsibility of bringing new players into the game and helping them understand the game world, it's an actual responsibility. You can of course have fun with it, but it's an added aspect of your role that you might not be prepared or willing to accept.

Tbh, most areas where the tribal tent spawns rotate, are a breeze. Typically, no hostile npc presence, unless someone has baited them nearby, with lots of dodge-happy small game for skill grindings, easy access to food and free water... once you know where it is, which is, exactly, what makes having a mentor to follow around such a benefit.

Relative to, say, the Vrun, wherein you have the absolute worst of players churning out grief, muls/dwarves/groups running around looking for, basically, any excuse to kill pcs for the compensate, super aggressive ecosystems and poisons everywhere and in every hand, but where only new players won't have easy access to cures, the Tablelands and Gol are absolutely much more new player friendly, imo.

And, at least imo, nobody is more or less responsible for raising newbies, than anyone else. What makes a tribe superior to the Byn, or Kadius, or any other city-focused clan, is that there is usually documentation and, presumably, staff enforcement of said documents, that reinforce 'tribe is family, tribe comes first, take care of the tribe first before the self', or some variation thereof.

Instead of it being a 'byn sarge is put upon with the burden of the newbies', its 'this is how our clan is' and should, at least in theory, mean the raising and helping of said player, through RP with their pc, is more organic and less an ooc construct to plod through out of a sense of obligation. It is the break in character to "go into newbie help mode", when it isn't necessarily in your character to do so, that becomes tiresome for most, I would think.

If we eliminate the 'I help, because they're new and OOC its a nice thing to do' and replace it with 'I help, because they're my blood and kin', it is less a burden and more an opportunity. An opportunity that, if handled right, will become a real asset to the tribe, translating to more power in the game world, which seems to be what most strive for, one way or the other.

The only issue, I suppose, would be how to ensure whatever tribe the newbies are recommended, is reasonably populated across the time zones. Then again, the Byn, and Allanak, are typically rather dead most of the time, outside of pre-peak, peak, and post-peak, but since we need new players to better population the world and time zones... it is a conundrum, and I have no answer for it.

I wholeheartedly encourage new players to check out tribes but I've played tribals more than anything else and the number of times I've been excited to see a new player join the clan only to find their corpse in a hole or next to a raptor exceeds the number of times a new player has joined and survived long enough for our playtimes to sync up.

[Hathors Hitman]

I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

[titansfan]

I 1000% agree with Vex's post.