all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?

[Zexalt]

OOC knowledge of an infallible mercy command should have no bearing on IC actions.

should versus would

[Hauwke]

OOC knowledge of an infallible mercy command should have no bearing on IC actions.

should versus would

The thing is though, if you knew 100% that mercy on would save a PC from dying, or that mercy on being defaulted to every so often so that you 100% could not genuinly accidentally kill someone. There would be suspicion, regardless of code. People are fallible and log out the second sparring time ends, they log out once they get their fails and then they wait 5 hours until the end of the day and do it again.

And then they complain if they get killed because their total 8 hours of effort to get a badass results in nothing.

[X-D]

See now, that is the thing.  I want mercy to be perfect but I also want the chance that it is not.

As far as I can see this returns us to another suggestion that comes up year in and year out. And that is the "death period". In other words, Your PC is past -10, They will die, nothing at all will save them but you have X time to get in that last couple emotes, thinks, feels...hell, I don't have an issue with them being awake and get those last couple says in...long as they have not been moved to -stun.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Is that so that some of us will be able to shout, "No! This cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!"

[X-D]

Hopefully.

[triste]

You're posing a straw man, as I've already said that it shouldn't even be possible to shadow someone into their apartment. And yes, I think that it is cheesy and miserable RP to do so, just because you can if you consider how people use doors. But many people don't even think about that, and so they assume shadowing someone is a legit action. But, that said, they are again entering into a situation with a 100% risk factor that constitutes probably at most 1% of their playtime, whereas the person who is following your "rules" for character longevity are doing so just IN CASE something happens, 100% of their playtime.

Compound gates are a bit different, because there is often only 1 coded entrance into a compound despite the IC reality being in 3 dimensions. So there needs to be some way to get in to represent the various avenues someone would have for infiltrating such a large place. Ideally, there would be coded rooms with secret entrances, climbable walls, windows or drainage grates and such instead, but in the absence of such options, an option to clandestinely get in needs to exist.

I've always thought you should have to get you a cloak or armband or a number of clan objects in order to shadow your way into a compound.

Been staying away from this thread as I don't think there are any solutions to the problems proposed, however, I want to voice my support for cool features like this. In fact it would be great if there were some automated way to "gain" a clan flag if you wear the clans equipment. Perhaps that is making it too easy but the complete lack of disguise and subterfuge is unfortunate. Could a player put in a request if they have clan gear to gain the clan flag and enter a clan compound? I suppose that would be just as good.

I have felt for years that there should be a certain "combination" of insignia checked for most gate access, like how Tuluk would check for tattoos in certain locations, or deny entry. It also came up recently with regards to the changes made to sdescs on the Way, etc.

There are hundreds of Bynners, and the Gate Guards are able to know every face of every Runner that a Sergeant just hired out of the Gaj last night? Nah. But they got an aba, and a patch, so let 'em on through.

It might make for more break-ins, but that sounds like an IC issue. Stop hiring idiots who go into the 'rinth and get killed, letting them pretend to be whoever they want.

(This is also because for 10 years I've wanted to run a Guild shop full of 'costumes' which is just a place you go to rent House-specific items. Trooper Sleeves, AoD patches, signet rings, etc.)

I was just thinking about this today and tried to find the best thread to just say "+1 disguises." This topic showed up in the recent Content and Creation thread, here, and about 10 other places.

The way in which this could improve roleplay is obvious, and makes infiltration much more interesting than * a strange shadow is here * per the original topic in this thread.

One of my favorite things about the 'Rinth is it in effect has a "dress code" -- if we managed to program this for the 'Rinth, what Riev and others have proposed should be feasible. Someone also recently mentioned that we need more 'rinth friendly gear -- they are totally correct, and it looks like staff are even calling for East Side crafts. I like the direction of more TLC into this part of our codebase, and if we put the effort there (and if players keep saying it's something they like and want), why not expand this idea of disguise/uniform beyond the 'rinth.

_{Totes optional rant explaining why I am necroing this shit: I've been chilling in Texas and people think I am a woman here 50% of the time, while it was only 5% of the time in California. The way I am treated and perceived has totally changed just by being somewhere else and it's weird. It completely cracks me up. Identity, even your god damned perceived gender, is totally context dependent. Also kudos to texas for unintentionally getting my gender identity more right than West Coasters who always 'politely' and annoyingly assume "super butch female = trying to be man" like we are still in the nineteen fucking fifties.}

[Kialae]

I've always felt it's super dumb that you, in your own apartment, with a key you have in your hand, can't unlock the door and flee while in combat. It's like apartments are DESIGNED for you to die in if you have one. Never get an apartment, guys. It never works well for you.

[triste]

I've always felt it's super dumb that you, in your own apartment, with a key you have in your hand, can't unlock the door and flee while in combat. It's like apartments are DESIGNED for you to die in if you have one. Never get an apartment, guys. It never works well for you.

_{I love [redacted] so much that I'll take the risk because the negative account notes for public [redacted] are worse.}

But srsly thanks for posting, this is the sort of "stupid clunky code thing" that I do not mind seeing posted since it is a matter of life and death and not at all related to realistic/awesome/good roleplay (what the game is about). I understand why we had that thread where people were asking for the ability to bash down doors better now as well ty boo

[Veselka]

At the very least, if you disengage from combat, you should be able to try and open a locked door. The other person can still wail on you, but you at least can struggle to break free.

In general, conflict should be escapable for the most part, and it cheapens apartments that under-skilled assassins can take advantage of what is ostensibly an OOC construct (Once in combat in a one room space with a locked exit, you cannot escape). The same goes for soldiers being unable to subdue you for crime-code once you are in combat with another soldier or NPC.

I don't think all PvP used to be 'surprise attacks only'. Some things changed with the game that seem to lean it towards both longevity and a desire to be ultra-skilled before engaging in dangerous plots. For one, we used to not be able to see skill levels, it was something that you had to feel out for yourself. I think this pushed people to rely less on whether their weapon skills were (journeyman) or (advanced) before feeling confident enough to inhabit their PC more fully. As a result, it seems PCs are living longer because they are taking less risks.

Part of why I miss Tuluk (not all, but part) is PCs could get involved in plots with a day 0 hour 0 PC, due to Nobles being more approachable, the risk of death from having a conversation with a Templar being more minimal for a Northern PC, and a general supportiveness for self-generated plots. I had a PC who on day 0 hour 0 was approached by Raleris in the Sanctuary for partisanship, and before logging off that session, my PC had independently approached the Tenneshi Noble (Darsul?) for the same position. He later used it as a foil off one another, siding more strongly with Raleris, and avoiding an Artist contract Darsul took out on him due to Raleris' status. It was just cool shit that started right off the bat, because there was not a price of entry.

I don't know if that's our OOC Culture now, or IC culture of Allanak, or whatever it is, but I encourage people to play their PCs to the hilt from the very get go. Not after you've been in the Byn for 20 days played, or practiced backstab on Labyrinth NPCs until you're advanced in backstab. There seems to be a push for the idea that all conflict must be resolved immediately, and there can be no room for error or escape, but honestly, most of the fun comes from the botched jobs, the near misses, and the almost assassinations.

EDIT:
To add, I feel that there should be more tools in the toolbox for assassins beyond the Apartment Trick. Poisons that damage stamina and movement, or provide greater chance of critical hits, for example. Trap was an excellent tool that, when it worked correctly, accomplished the job without having to even engage in direct combat. Slow-acting poisons like Methelinoc that a person can cure if they understand the symptoms and have access to the curatives. Silent poison delivery via blowdart that can be noticed by watch by the victim. Tripwire that can be installed in certain rooms indoor rooms, like hallways, that will either set off an explosive or simply trip the next person who exits the room. Providing realistic advantages to assassins would decrease the more OOC advantages they have to employ currently, I think.

[Krath]

I like the idea of being able to unlock doors while in combat..As long as you, the person unlocking and opening the door, opens themselves up for being attacked, much like when you try to flee or pick something up. To Clarify: This would create up to three  Opportunities of attacks:

1. Unlocking Door
2. Opening Door
3. Fleeing (Depending on your flee skill)

[Narf]

I think it'd solve this and a lot of other issues if doors didn't need a key to open from the inside.

This solves the locked in your own room problem, makes it more difficult for other people to lure you into an apartment and kill you, and people could quit out in other people's apartments knowing they'd be able to leave later.

I know one issue I've had is that crashes will relock doors, trapping people inside that originally had an unlocked door to leave from even when the owner intentionally left it open.

[mansa]

I think it'd solve this and a lot of other issues if doors didn't need a key to open from the inside.

I like this solution - it could exist for some of the cheaper apartments, and not exist for the more expensive ones.

Let me just think about a few scenarios.

You are given a key
You unlock the door from the outside.
You enter.

Does the door automatically relock when it closes from the outside, or does the door stay unlocked?

If the door changes it's status back to being locked - what if you forget the key behind when you leave the room?  You can't get back in - and you'll have to get a duplicate get from the innkeeper.  (THIS IS A PROBLEM)

If the door doesn't change it's locked status, and remains unlocked - other people can enter your apartment from the outside.  Is that a satisfactory expectation and gameplay change?


Which leads to the intent of the apartment rooms themselves - Is the major intent to "save" your objects/items when you're not in the room from the majority of other players?  And if you're in the room it's fair game?

[Brytta Léofa]

Does the door automatically relock when it closes from the outside, or does the door stay unlocked?

From the outside, you need a key to lock and unlock. From the inside, anyone can lock and unlock without a key. (It's pretty easy to imagine physical mechanisms that would work this way.)

Add in the ability to unlock and open if you disengage from combat, and you've probably reduced apartment ganking as much as is reasonable. There's still a real advantage to luring someone into private for murder; they just have an actual fighting (fleeing) chance.

[Harmless]

It has been >1 year since my original post, and still everything in game works sadly according to the meta silliness I pointed out in the OP. My distaste for pvp is why I haven't PKed anyone for several years and until any changes are really made to things in any of the ways other posters here have suggested it still seems to me like a status quo will linger.

I can't prove this but I also do suspect that a judgy distaste for ERP/apartment activities in general is why the code favors them to be death traps. I do think this is a deterrent in essence and therefore get miffed about this. This game claims to want to portray a world where prostitutes for instance are an accepted role but to actually employ that means getting familiar fast with all the nonsense about doors and locks and shadowing and scanning and blah blah blah.

My tone on the topic of PVP functionality will be much the same as time goes on unless changes do happen. Has been more than a year since I started this topic and I still see the exact same strategies and pitfalls in action, so there has been no reason for me to change my tune.

But, for instance, employing any of the suggestions in the few posts above would be a great basic start towards a better PvP experience in these areas. Any of them. There were 6-10 good ideas scattered in the 10+ pages of responses before them too.

[LindseyBalboa]

There aren't mechanisms to unlock or lock a door from within using a wooden lock, that I could find. We don't have metal locks, or even complex locks. Wooden locks were actually made to keep people out, not in, only lockable or unlock able from one side. Beyond that, they were easily picked with household items. So if you enjoy the privacy of being in your apartment with a locked door that someone has to have a special pick made for, you're already getting easy mode benefits!

[Is Friday]

There aren't mechanisms to unlock or lock a door from within using a wooden lock, that I could find. We don't have metal locks, or even complex locks. Wooden locks were actually made to keep people out, not in, only lockable or unlock able from one side. Beyond that, they were easily picked with household items. So if you enjoy the privacy of being in your apartment with a locked door that someone has to have a special pick made for, you're already getting easy mode benefits!

You know - of all the years I've been playing... I never posed the question: Why not make all the doors unlockable from the inside without a key?

Simple, genius solution.

[number13]

Shouldn't even have to type 'unlock door' or 'open door'. If you are in an apartment and type the direction of the door, the door opens and you go that way. Or if you type "flee" and the game chooses that direction for you to run, you burst through the door.

It should have been done decades ago.

Also, it would make practicing lockpicking (a little) more risky.

[X-D]

You should have to unlock it...But it should not take a key. Doors on the inside should be barred, and unpickable from the outside. IE, if I lock my door from the inside I am throwing bars.

And before anybody thinks to post about something against that. That is exactly how I built my door IRL, I built a dutch door, each half weighs over 300lbs and is basically 3A armor. Each section has two bars inside. You cannot pick that but it does take me pulling all 4 bars back to get out.

Also, I know such a thing is codable IG, I have seen them before.

[Dar]

So your point is that the doors to apartments should be unpickable, or that they should be unpickable when locked from inside?

Because if it's the latter, I don't think code can differentiate if it's locked from inside, or outside.

[Fernandezj]

The idea is that no one uses a key to lock their own apartment door from the inside. Its usually a latch or bolt or bar.
The idea you can be PKed in an apartment because you're locked in with a key, is bizarre.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I don't think you should be able to pick anybody's apartment unless they are online. The entire idea of keys are pretty overly advanced for our world, frankly. But of course I understand why they exist. Ideally, you could just open from the inside, lock from the outside, and not be robbed unless you were online.

[Fernandezj]

Yeah, its a playability-vs-realism thing that is very clunky.
Lots of the rooms descriptions describe people as living in tents or huts, or shacks, or whatever else.
Or in hall-ways and crumbling places, yet no PC would live in a non-locking space for playability.

Weird balance, but I dont like the current setup.

[X-D]

Yes, the latter Dar.

So you have never run into a door in game that can be barred from the inside and still has a lock on the outside?

Pretty sure I have.

Should be easy enough to do since technically every exit is 2 exits. I make a room, I make an exit east and link it to another room. The exit only shows in the first room until I go to the second room and link it to the first making a two way exit. Same I believe applies to doors. Have to make a door in each room with matching key.

As such, it would not take much of a script to make a door able to be barred on one side and key locked on the other. Assuming it would not just work by setting each side that way.

[Brokkr]

Not sure why Nenyuk would let anyone do that to their apartments.  Given the pain in the ass they would have if someone died inside, had to evict someone, had to give the authorities access to it, etc.

[LindseyBalboa]

"Sorry but alterations to apartments are grounds for eviction by the way we're keeping your rent money so hopefully you have something else to bribe the AOD soldiers with. Who are on the way."

Lmao I love it.

I still think people should just be chill with the ability to somehow magically lock a wooden lock from within with an intricate key that someone needs skill to recreate. Just don't lock the door when you're inside, problem solved, and it's way more realistic.