all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?

[mansa]

Meh to the murder idea or changing mercy functionality also from my end.

Just use bludgeoning weapons with mercy. Once their stun drops to 0 you will stop attacking as far as I know? Or am I wrong there?

It makes more sense that you reliably won't kill someone with a bludgeoning tool anyway.

How can you roleplay in a group setting if you are prone, unable to listen and speak.

[Harmless]

You can emote groaning in pain and drooling on the floor, or however your character handles being unaware of their environment after a vicious bludgeoning, you can see the emotes that others put in the room describing what is happening to you, and if the intent was not to kill you, you can eventually awaken subdued by someone else and stripped of all your things, possibly in a locked interrogation room.

But, the main reasons I had a problem with the suggestion is what Heade said, the intentionality of a murder command is OOCly jarring and the inability to accidentally kill someone with bladed weapons is also not realistic.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I do think that generally, when you are sparring, you'd want both combatants wearing armor as normal, and both using blunted, softer material, (perhaps even lighter) weapons to  help minimize damage.  And stop sparring when you reach about half HP.

But people already do this, don't they?  Or does everyone just use the biggest, baddest, sharpest weapon they can hold and push to the limit until the other person collapses?

[Heade]

I do think that generally, when you are sparring, you'd want both combatants wearing armor as normal, and both using blunted, softer material, (perhaps even lighter) weapons to  help minimize damage.  And stop sparring when you reach about half HP.

But people already do this, don't they?  Or does everyone just use the biggest, baddest, sharpest weapon they can hold and push to the limit until the other person collapses?

In my experience, people already do this. But also in my experience, a skilled mul, dwarf, or HG might kill you with a blunted spoon in a single hit to the neck. Going from "I'm fine" to mantis head can happen all to quickly.

And if a very skilled and strong combatant wants to get rid of a new recruit who saw something they shouldn't have seen, a "sparring accident" is potentially a good way to make that happen. It's quite simple to accomplish, really. One successful bash and neckchop later, problem solved. The issue is that being prone from bash makes hard hits far more likely, and if there is a large skill disparity, death can come quicker than someone might be able to type "disengage".

So, I'm in favor of mercy on working 100% of the time, but I'm not in favor of a murder command. OOC plausible deniability needs to exist to facilitate IC "accidents".

[Harmless]

So, I'm in favor of mercy on working 100% of the time, but I'm not in favor of a murder command. OOC plausible deniability needs to exist to facilitate IC "accidents".

But, if mercy worked 100% of the time, then the plausible deniability will go away, because people will all OOCly know you can never kill anyone "accidentally" anymore. So, if we change mercy we'll lose the ability to facilitate IC accidents.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Better yet, don't spar half giants and muls.   

Or..  if you insist on practicing skills like Bash that have some input delay, maybe do it unarmed?  I guess that would help.

[Hauwke]

Better yet, don't spar half giants and muls.   

Or..  if you insist on practicing skills like Bash that have some input delay, maybe do it unarmed?  I guess that would help.

Thats why in clans that accept half-giants and muls there are generally rules in place, even a newbie HG could probably kill another untrained player with ease.

[Heade]

Thats why in clans that accept half-giants and muls there are generally rules in place, even a newbie HG could probably kill another untrained player with ease.

I've had a noob bynner ordered to spar a HG before by his PC sergeant. That character died while sparring said HG.

So, I'm in favor of mercy on working 100% of the time, but I'm not in favor of a murder command. OOC plausible deniability needs to exist to facilitate IC "accidents".

But, if mercy worked 100% of the time, then the plausible deniability will go away, because people will all OOCly know you can never kill anyone "accidentally" anymore. So, if we change mercy we'll lose the ability to facilitate IC accidents.

Not really, because you can OOCly "forget" to turn mercy on. But you can't use the OOC excuse that you forgot if it was necessary to input the command "murder Harmless" to actually strike a killing blow.

[Hauwke]

That seems entirely IC if you were ordered.

[Harmless]

Will still lead to meta. People will state 'please turn mercy on' or 'mercy check' in ooc. Once your mark is dead accidentally everyone will have ooc knowledge that you turned it off or never turned it on. Same problem.

[Hauwke]

Will still lead to meta. People will state 'please turn mercy on' or 'mercy check' in ooc. Once your mark is dead accidentally everyone will have ooc knowledge that you turned it off or never turned it on. Same problem.

The best response to someone doing an OOC mercy check is to OOC to keep it IC. Icly you cannot tell the difference until they actually kill you.

[Brokkr]

Will still lead to meta. People will state 'please turn mercy on' or 'mercy check' in ooc.

Have always considered this bad play.  Especially when you get someone that says it to everyone they spar, or a leader that says it to every new recruit, not in a "btw in case you are new we have mercy, check it out" but in a "if you are here, you will use mercy" sort of way.  That is not your determination to make, as a leadery PC.  Ditto with folks that want you to nosave so you don't attack fleeing folks.

[Blink]

Will still lead to meta. People will state 'please turn mercy on' or 'mercy check' in ooc.

Have always considered this bad play.  Especially when you get someone that says it to everyone they spar, or a leader that says it to every new recruit, not in a "btw in case you are new we have mercy, check it out" but in a "if you are here, you will use mercy" sort of way.  That is not your determination to make, as a leadery PC.  Ditto with folks that want you to nosave so you don't attack fleeing folks.

I disagree that this is bad play.  How is it not a leadery PC's call to make it so those under their command do not kill each other whether it be accidental or purposeful?  I think it's their duty to do so. IRL there are all kinds of ways to safeguard against fatal injuries during sparring type situations but they don't work in the game as we have no control over how hard we hit or where we hit, etc.

[Narf]

Will still lead to meta. People will state 'please turn mercy on' or 'mercy check' in ooc.

Have always considered this bad play.  Especially when you get someone that says it to everyone they spar, or a leader that says it to every new recruit, not in a "btw in case you are new we have mercy, check it out" but in a "if you are here, you will use mercy" sort of way.  That is not your determination to make, as a leadery PC.  Ditto with folks that want you to nosave so you don't attack fleeing folks.

I disagree that this is bad play.  How is it not a leadery PC's call to make it so those under their command do not kill each other whether it be accidental or purposeful?  I think it's their duty to do so. IRL there are all kinds of ways to safeguard against fatal injuries during sparring type situations but they don't work in the game as we have no control over how hard we hit or where we hit, etc.

The PC is only a leader ICly. It's an OOC statement, so if it were truly a command it would be inappropriate.

That said, I usually take it as a suggestion. That's what I always mean it as when I say it (though usually I phrase it so that this is clear).

[Kyviantre]

As someone with a terrible memory...I'd rather everyone be given a light nudged reminder.  But I do consider it that, a reminder, not an OOC order.  I consider it shorthand for the leader to ICly be going "Let's try not to accidentally bludgeon Rookie to death folks!", and accept that, sure, accidents still happen.  But without being able to pull blows (why is this not a thing?), then there is still the possibility that someone will intentionally get murdery and 'accidentally' bludgeon someone...I mean, big bone club?  Totally doable if you hit in the right place.

So...as long as there are no recriminations IC of "Wtf, didn't you have mercy on?!", then a little nudge to remind me, is appreciated

[Harmless]

What about a mercy level.

You can be merciful to the point of unconsciousness or to the point of being poor, near death, heavily wounded, etc.

You will automatically stop at whatever level you set in advance of a fight.

Your character will assess the opponent after landing strikes.

It can save lives against accidents due to ooc stuff like disconnects or lag.

[Brokkr]

I must admit to being confused.  I see all the deaths that happen while I am online.  I hardly ever see a sparring death.  I could be around at the wrong times.  Is it certainty that is wanted?  The game is typically not designed for certainty/safety.  Or I could have a whacked out baseline, as my baseline is sort of before mercy existed, before disengage existed.  Sparring had some risk and people died.  Routinely, thus disengage and mercy. 

I don't see people dying now, so folks want....

[Seeker]

It [/i]seems[/i] that the suggestion is to have a function that

1) infallibly has a mercy-type option or code-interrupt that incapacitates instead of killing a PC in any combat, magic attack or ranged situation, but that is also is, completely paradoxically,

2) OOCly indeterminable that the attacker chose not to use it when they "accidentally" murder someone.  The player doesn't want to have their PC face repercussions for their OOC choice to let the "accident" happen.

[Riev]

It [/i]seems[/i] that the suggestion is to have a function that

1) infallibly has a mercy-type option or code-interrupt that incapacitates instead of killing a PC in any combat, magic attack or ranged situation, but that is also is, completely paradoxically,

2) OOCly indeterminable that the attacker chose not to use it when they "accidentally" murder someone.  The player doesn't want to have their PC face repercussions for their OOC choice to let the "accident" happen.

We have a winner.

A way for PvP to end in a non-story-closing manner, but also not being held to harsher consequences when a story-closing strategy is taken.

[ErdluWings]

It [/i]seems[/i] that the suggestion is to have a function that

1) infallibly has a mercy-type option or code-interrupt that incapacitates instead of killing a PC in any combat, magic attack or ranged situation, but that is also is, completely paradoxically,

2) OOCly indeterminable that the attacker chose not to use it when they "accidentally" murder someone.  The player doesn't want to have their PC face repercussions for their OOC choice to let the "accident" happen.

Well, it seems there is a balance of interests here:
1) Ability for PCs to maintain OOC plausible deniability over sparring accidents. As we have read, this seems to be an extremely rare occurence, and even when it occurs, OOC knowledge of an infallible mercy command should have no bearing on IC actions.
2) Ability to disable PCs without killing them (when you don't have specialized skills to accomplish that). This seems to have multiple uses besides sparring, including mugging, raiding, and attempting to capture a criminal. Occurence of this is of course impossible to determine, but is plausibly several times of the first case.

Considering PK is one of the third rails of Arm discussion, any feature to prevent inadvertent PK (not wanted by either side) should be given the benefit of doubt.

[Kyviantre]

I can't remember...does Armageddon have code for tying people up?  I mean, subdue is fine, but requires you to be holding someone.  We have rope IG, it'd be nice to be able to tie people up, so you can have a good pontification scene after they regain consciousness, so they can reply.  But that might be me returning from a game that had both tying-foes-up and being able to gag people to muffle them.  Both useful when you want to give a more RP-centric scene that both badguy and victim can participate in.

[Seeker]

I can't remember...does Armageddon have code for tying people up?  I mean, subdue is fine, but requires you to be holding someone.  We have rope IG, it'd be nice to be able to tie people up, so you can have a good pontification scene after they regain consciousness, so they can reply.  But that might be me returning from a game that had both tying-foes-up and being able to gag people to muffle them.  Both useful when you want to give a more RP-centric scene that both badguy and victim can participate in.

Coded blindfolding and hog-tying have been requested, but not implemented.  I was told that it was going to be an Atrium elective course. 

[Kyviantre]

I'll take masks that actually mask first, if given the option...pretty sure the Atrium electives are more to do with grub-silk rope bondage, not dirty rinther hostage-taking!

[NinjaFruitSalad]

What about a mercy level.

You can be merciful to the point of unconsciousness or to the point of being poor, near death, heavily wounded, etc.

You will automatically stop at whatever level you set in advance of a fight.

Your character will assess the opponent after landing strikes.

It can save lives against accidents due to ooc stuff like disconnects or lag.

This is a great idea! It's a great solution that will help. And it's perfectly logical and realistic too.

I don't understand what the urgency for "plausible deniability" is. Technically, that already may exist if you spar against half-giants, muls, or accidentally hit someone with a nasty head or neck hit. Right?

If you really want to kill someone so badly, there's got to be a lot of better options out there, aside from "accidentally" killing someone while you spar them in a hamfisted manner, and hoping for no repercussions. I don't think that should ever fly, unless it's clearly a freak accident. And a mercy setting of, say, 50% health should by and large ensure that.

[LindseyBalboa]

I don't think there should be an easier, less-dangerous way to grind your combat skills up.

Sparring should result in death, or permanent injury, from time to time.

That being said, if there was a mercy-style toggle that changed a PC death to a permanent injury that has to be reflected in stats and desc, I would one hundred percent be behind that as an alternative.