Ranger sanctuary

[Thanos]

I've always thought that a ranger should be able to pass through hostile territories relatively unscathed. Espeacially an experienced ranger. Although I know a good ranger can make it through most situations, I propose they should be given a hard coded buffer to make it happen and minimize the bad luck problem.

A ranger would be able to pass within one room of aggro mobs and not have them charge. To minimize abuse potential I would say that combat should disable this ability for some time based on the pc's hunt skill.

An idea, no less, no more.
Thanos

[Marauder Moe]

I've never played a ranger, but isnt that what ranger hide/sneak is supposed to do?

[Dakkon Black]

From what I hear your ranger has to be intensely l337 to sneek or hide past anything. And even then I'm not sure you can becuase most of these aggro critters have damn good noses. I should hope that a ranger could do it though so if you can't. Maybe that will be tweaked some day.

[Rindan]

From what I hear your ranger has to be intensely l337 to sneek or hide past anything. And even then I'm not sure you can becuase most of these aggro critters have damn good noses. I should hope that a ranger could do it though so if you can't. Maybe that will be tweaked some day.

My understanding of the problem isn't that there are not rangers good enough to do this, but that the way the code works the NPCs are always 'looking'.  In other words, the NPCs are always spaming 'l;l e;l s;l w;l n'  So, you can sneak in such a way they don't see the room entrance, but they are spamming look so much that they see you well before you can hide.  I am pretty sure that unless things have changed, you can not sneak past agro critters or things that autoflee.

[Teleri]

In other words, the NPCs are always spaming 'l;l e;l s;l w;l n'

Would it then be possible, code-wise, to change the time intervals at which certain npcs look around for danger or food?  I think a few extra seconds or so would be beneficial to the ranger characters who are better at sneaking and hiding, and would make it possible for them to do as they should be able to in the first place.  Some creatures could be more attentive to their surroundings, perhaps even relating to weather conditions or the time in-game, as they would naturally be more skittish/aggressive.

I don't know anything about the coding on any npc for anything, so I'm not sure if it's even possible to change the times at which some of them look around.  However, if this could be done, I believe that it would give some hunters a better chance of sneaking up on and killing animals.  But, I believe it should still be hard to do this, and if the animals could be more random in their searches, that would cut down on possible exploitation of any pattern.

[Bestatte]

Teleri I love the idea of more randomness in how various npcs utilize their skills! I know there are guards in shops who have the scan skill..and it seems like you're in the shop, they start scanning, and actively scan every 20 seconds. It's annoying as hell. I mean, if you're good at scanning, you don't need to renew it that often. It's on, just type LOOK and if something's there, you'll see it. Or not, if the hider is better at hiding than your scan is..

(no it's not ic info, it's in the help files so shush everyone).

But there are also critters that autoflee..it's like they just happen to be facing YOUR direction in a 3-mile area every freaking time you show up.

I'd like to see them flee - but maybe once in awhile, they're looking in the OTHER direction and don't see you right away. Have that random chance of actually being able to engage them in combat without having to chase them into exhaustion or have a bow/knife-thrower with you. Just once in awhile, for a treat. So you can think to yourself, YEAH! instead of spending the entire game day chasing it down, only to have it turn pitch black by the time it starts to get tired and then you have to go home for the night.

[John]

some critters have auto-flee randomised

[mansa]

It works.   Give it time.  You won't be able to 'sneak' around past beasts with less than 1 day playing time on your ranger.  At 5 days, perhaps.  10, Most definitely.

Give it time.  Have patience.  Eat a donut.

[X-D]

Heh, or even 16 days on a d-elf ranger with camo gear who could sneak past any pc he came across, but damm if them auto-flee's and agro's did not see him every single time.

Hide works fine, forget sneak if your dealing with agro or auto-flee in the wild.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Personally, I'd like to see it so that if you successfully hide, a successful sneak move won't break the hide automatically, but would automatically generate a hide roll in the new room.  If successful, you never become visible.  If you fail, you become visible.  Similarly, if you fail your sneak, you become visible.

[Kalden]

That's a damn good idea, JollyGreenGiant. I know that thieves have the same problems sneaking past guards in the cities, and that would actually overcome all those problems.

Some people describe 'hide' as active and moving. If so, then why can't you actively 'hide and sneak' to another room without breaking cover?

Your idea is the only way that I can see this problem being solved, and allowing the rangers sneak and hide skill to be actually useful against NPCs. As it is, it's all fine and good for sneaking around PCs, but it doesn't help when you're a ranger trying to get through territory without the monsters noticing you.

[flashz00]

Yes you can sneak and hide from npc beasts..Hell I've done it..I've hidden from a beast once soon as it entered the square with me..Never did it see me. And I've even snuck into the square with some of the auto flee creatures..You can't expect to be able to do it right off the bat..You must practice and give it time.

[Rindan]

Try sneaking past a gith ambush for me some time.  I don't care if your sneak is at 100%, it will get you.  Sneak is slightly screwy in that you are visble when you sneak, it just doesn't display your entrance message.  That means that things that are not looking for an entrance message will see you.  So, if you sneak past a square with some aggressive soldiers in it, they will attack because you will be visible.

I personally like the idea of being able to move while hidden if you have sneak on.  I don't see it as being unbalanced.  Just make it do both a sneak and a hide check to see if you pull it off.

[Northlander]

Yes, if they charge into the 'room', you can hide and avoid them seeing you. If you go in a direction after that, they'll follow thanks to their look-spam, but you might be able to hide before they attack.

And yes, some autoflee beasts are possible to sneak up on. Also, the autoflee script fails at times. For the majority of auto-flee beasts, however, this is not possible.

I'd love a hide roll being given to you if you succeed a sneak, and that the roll is immediate so that, if successful, you're never visible.

Northlander, who's had one of those sixty-day-rangers.

[UnderSeven]

It's been a long time since I've played a ranger, but I'm not entirly sure this is accurate.  The way I remeber it being is that if you did a successful hide AND a successful sneak, you would not be unhidden in the next room.  Granted it took a while to get there, but I'm pretty sure that's how the code works and if I'm correct than it definatly needs no tweaking.  Things to consider though:

Argro npcs are stupid.  REALLY stupid so a ranger who knows their salt really doesn't have a lot to worry about.  When I last played a ranger, they got to the point where they completely owned the wilderness.  I somehow doubt if this has changed, but if you spend all your time fleeing gith and killing skeet, than yeah, don't expect to get that good at it.

Second keep in mind that just because you sneak and hide everywhere, doesn't mean you get any better at it.  For instance, if I were to stand in a room, all by myself (in real life) and practice my loot persuation skills, just sort of talking to myself, I'd probably be just as bad next time I tried to do it.  So you guys might not be as good at this as you think.

Anyway, I don't think we need a staffer to come tell us one way or the other how the code works for the game, but these rangers have been around forever and so have their skills, they've worked in the past and nothing seems to of recently been done to break them.  I don't personally see any problem.

[Twilight]

I'd like hide and sneak to work the same, whether you are following someone or not.  As it is, there is a big difference.  I'd rather you always got the chance to hide on a successful sneak.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I concur. As it is, sneak and hide both are broken. Outo-flee animals should not flee automatically. Sneaking and hiding, for rangers, dictates an ability to mask one's presence, period. That includes smell, sight, and feel and passage, for beasts, and sight and passage for humans.

[Lazloth]

I believe sneak and hide to be both fine, and find this line of griping ridiculous.  If it's outdoors mobs you have a problem with, maybe suggest a fix there; imho, this would be overly powerful for the skulker.

[jhunter]

I think that a good ranger should be able to sneak past aggros and sneak up on autoflees as well. I know you can hide from them, but I've never seen -anyone-, this includes someone who was an over 60 day ranger, be able to sneak past aggros.
IMHO, a good ranger, and -only- a good ranger should be able to do these things.
A good ranger should be able to do that, IC, doing those things would be the -main- reason for a ranger to work at moving quietly and keeping themselves hidden, hiding from -pcs- in the wilds would be secondary to most, yet, it is the one that's easier to do.

[Theebie]

Hi,

a codewise point of view (and its just a guess here) would be that
entering a room triggers an event. that means, if you enter a room,
a method (function) will be triggered in all objects (==aggro critters)
in nearby rooms which makes them charge.

that could be easily changed, but i guess its a feature that whenever
you enter a room everything charges you...

---theebie---

[Xygax]

Hi,

a codewise point of view (and its just a guess here) would be that
entering a room triggers an event. that means, if you enter a room,
a method (function) will be triggered in all objects (==aggro critters)
in nearby rooms which makes them charge.

that could be easily changed, but i guess its a feature that whenever
you enter a room everything charges you...

---theebie---

No, not really.  What's happening is that just after you've entered the room (and your hide, if any, removed), the creatures around you are "pulsing".  During their pulses, they scan nearby rooms for meaty pinatas like yourself.  When one is found, they charge.  I've liked some of the afore-mentioned ideas of allowing someone to hide-sneak thusly:

Code Select Expand


//pseudocode
cmd_move()
{
.
.
.
 char_to_room(new_room)
 if (hiding && sneaking && skilltest(hide) && skilltest(sneak))
     hide(ch);
.
.
.
}


thus leaving you hidden, if you sneak successfully -and- manage to hide successfully in the new room (given terrain restrictions, etc).  Perhaps with a significantly longer movement delay for those moving while hidden and sneaking (without looking at the code, I think there is already an additonal delay imposed for just sneaking).  What I don't like about it is the idea that you could basically "spam" these skills (hide and sneak) by leaving them on all the time, but that's fixable too.  This is probably the same fix/calculation I would do for people shadowing others, incidentally.  I'll see what the other staff think.

And, of course, I'll never tell you what I -actually- end up coding.  

[JollyGreenGiant]

I've liked some of the afore-mentioned ideas of allowing someone to hide-sneak thusly:

Code Select Expand


//pseudocode
cmd_move()
{
.
.
.
 char_to_room(new_room)
 if (hiding && sneaking && skilltest(hide) && skilltest(sneak))
     hide(ch);
.
.
.
}


thus leaving you hidden, if you sneak successfully -and- manage to hide successfully in the new room (given terrain restrictions, etc).

Xygax is my hero.  I even like the idea of changing shadow to work that way too, it makes sense.

[Carnage]

I don't support the idea 100%. I'd personally like to see it wear off after two or three rooms and you have to reapply the hide. As Xygax said, people could just leave it on all the time.

[Quirk]

I think this is great, just what the doctor ordered, and furthermore that Xygax rocks in many ways, all different.

Quirk

[Theebie]

I think it'd be a great way that way, since a possibility for people/rangers to actually be able to hide+sneak-move would be a nice thing.

there are probably some nice ways to restrict 'power-sneakers'
since people who always sneak DO get better in it (at least as much
better as people who just sometimes sneak) i think just removing
some of the skill-gains wouldnt be the best way.
some other way i could think of could be something like 'sneak-crim-flagged'
if you sneak and hide too often and get seen doing so by the guards,
they charge you 20 sids for 'behaving like a criminal' or something.
(and no, i wouldnt want them to charge, bash, hack'n'slay and then shout
Suffer the Highlords Fury, criminal!!!)
of course that'd only happen if a guard would actually see the FAILED
sneak/hide, since if you do sneak 'n hide all the time and do it successfully
noone will see you (you will do it good, it will be good, and you will raise skill,  actually you already got skill, since otherwise it wouldnt be good, but hey, you 'd get even MORE skill)

sneaking for a long time could cost additinal movepoints (it could be exhausting to always be carefull)

---theebie---