Stealth vs Scan/theft

[kahuna]

This discussion comes up every few years on the gdb.

Here's a thread from 2005 someone complaining about steal and wanting a coded limit on how many steal attempts you can make:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,13188.msg135202.html#msg135202

Another thread complaining about being stolen from 5 times in a row:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,4213.msg35333.html#msg35333

An announcement about them changing steal and making it harder back in 2006:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,18229.msg192440.html#msg192440


It is blatantly obvious that players on the side of "steal is too powerful" have
been stolen from in game and can't retaliate with a PK like X-D would want.

This is the same as people making threads about peraine when they die to it. Or some recent archery thread about how you
should be able to guard people from it. These are knee-jerk reactions to losing a PC or not being able to 'win' in
a certain situation. The problem with this way of thinking is that it's illogical to say that the game mechanics
need to change to suite your needs as a player for your play style. I don't believe that's how we should design game mechanics. The game is
fairly well balanced from what I can see but those who want it changed will always complain one way or another that they can't
"win" in a situation that they want to win in.

Archery PCs are killed all the time. Peraine isn't an instant kill in every situation. And believe it or not sneaky PCs and thieves are caught all the time and executed.

[SmashedTregil]

Well. If someone seriously failed a bunch of times and are still at it, I would consider it worthy of a player complaint.


I don't have a problem things like stealing from inventories, etc. Although the mace in XDs example must have been super light.

I really hate this "make the change I want, or players will leave the game" stance. Especially if players are 'not' United in a one front about the issue.

[SmashedTregil]

One way to fix this is to limit the bonus to stealth related activities that agility gives.

Right after we limit the bonus to everything that strength gives.

And give celves ability to transform into were rats.

[Qzzrbl]

are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

[kahuna]

are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

[SmashedTregil]

Like what?

Let's say there is an elf in your apartment and your scan isn't picking him up because of his insane agility. What can you do?

[Qzzrbl]

are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

Name three mundane methods that don't involve perception skills that get largely invalidated by agility and equipment bonuses to stealth.

I feel a fool for having played for fifteen years and not discovering any.

[SmashedTregil]

Do all miscreants have infallible stealth? Or is it all about celf agility?

[kahuna]

are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

Name three mundane methods that don't involve perception skills that get largely invalidated by agility and equipment bonuses to stealth.

I feel a fool for having played for fifteen years and not discovering any.

I'm confused are you saying you want mundane methods to detect stealth? IE: You want a fighter to be able to detect a stealth PC? If that's the case you simply go ask your friend who does have master scan to come with you. Or you bribe a templar or magicker to find them with non-mundane methods? I could list all the ways to break stealth but these are the mechanics of the game and I'll leave that up to the staff to reveal if they so choose.

[lairos]

Don't forget: Getting spotted is basically a death sentence for a sneaky character. Everyone complains about never seeing the thief, but when they do see the thief they instantly share the full mdesc and sdesc with every Templar and Soldier in the game.

I've seen the complete and total opposite of this. There are arguments on both sides and it is not "basically a death sentence". I'm sorry, but this is not always the case. While it is up to players and it can happen? It does not make it so to be what you claim.

You can be a widely known assassin and still come sit in the Gaj. You can be widely known as a thief and still not have problems.

There have been nerfs across the board and with many of the additions it is very easy for a thief to survive and get away even if caught. Though, with the level people start at based on where they used to start at? They can steal pretty darn well day 1. Same can be said for others and killing. You are far more persuaded to go and start doing them because you start higher and don't have as much skin in the game as you would when you're starting lower and having to skill up more before you go out as you once did. NPC killing and thefts are far more common now than they had been before the class changes.

This still doesn't make sense that you can spot someone concealed by magick far easier than you could someone hiding and stealing 6 items from you if you're looking or in a position that doesn't make sense. Just because you can codedly do something doesn't mean it makes RP sense to do so. It also doesn't make sense to be able to steal weapons off someone's belt if your cloak is closed around them, but it still happens.

are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

There is no way to prove that one way or another and there are not a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief that is an overexageration and it has already been stated that just because you can make coded ways to avoid some theft, doesn't make it right. As I already said, just because you can codedly do something doesn't mean it makes RP sense to do so in all situations.

[SmashedTregil]

Kahuna

Take two people. Both miscreants. One has AI agility, the other AI wisdom. Both have highest hide and scan maxed out. Lock them in one room.

The ai agility hides. The ai wisdom scans.

The ai wisdom guy with scan cannot pick up the stealth one after typing look 25 times.

Your personal opinion. Is that an okey situation?

[lairos]

I'm confused are you saying you want mundane methods to detect stealth? IE: You want a fighter to be able to detect a stealth PC? If that's the case you simply go ask your friend who does have master scan to come with you. Or you bribe a templar or magicker to find them with non-mundane methods? I could list all the ways to break stealth but these are the mechanics of the game and I'll leave that up to the staff to reveal if they so choose.

I think you have a very incorrect view of how hide/sneak actually work and what can be detected by what, but I can't really get into that without discussing coded abilities. Just because you have master scan does not ever mean you will detect someone with master hide/sneak. There are many ways to aide your sneak/hide, but there are very, very few ways to increase your scan to be able to detect.

[Qzzrbl]

I'm confused are you saying you want mundane methods to detect stealth?

why yes a mundane method of dealing with mundane things what a concept

IE: You want a fighter to be able to detect a stealth PC?

The fewer assumptions you make, the better.

If that's the case you simply go ask your friend who does have master scan to come with you.

It's really fun when you are the friend with master scan and still manage to be useless.

Or you bribe a templar or magicker to find them with non-mundane methods?

that's a bit extreme

I could list all the ways to break stealth but these are the mechanics of the game and I'll leave that up to the staff to reveal if they so choose.

ok

[ScramblesForPurchase]

Heh.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54754.msg1032179.html#msg1032179

Some of the methods to deter theft are in this thread but other people said it was twinky. Jury is still out.

Edited to add the most common one I know in case you don't want to search the thread.

Public service announcement, put things inside a container in your pack that's large, like coins inside a large wooden box or large bag with other things essentially only having one object in your pack, and close the internal container.

Provided you keep enough weight of items in the bag or container it will be unstealable from while in your main backpack.

You can't open things inside of things with unlatch.

[Derain]

The other thing that needs to be looked at is the fact that thieves without even being able to see what's under someone's cloak can still just go 'steal sword' 'steal axe'. Etc and the script will still run and steal the first one of those it finds, great RP folks.

[SmashedTregil]

Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

And it's not so impossible. I mean, you blindly slide your hand in and feel our for the handle. Not too improbable.

It's hilarious. So many people said celves suck due to strength penalties. Finally a guild appeared that allowed celves to put their strengths to use, and woooo ... People are afraid to leave their compounds.

[Qzzrbl]

Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

And it's not so impossible. I mean, you blindly slide your hand in and feel our for the handle. Not too improbable.

It's hilarious. So many people said celves suck due to strength penalties. Finally a guild appeared that allowed celves to put their strengths to use, and woooo ... People are afraid to leave their compounds.

Almost certain these feats aren't exclusive to celves, just they have a much easier time of it.

[Derain]

Thanks to everyone who didn't post on a throw away GDB handle and actually tried to talk about the obvious balance issue and isn't being condescending.

[SmashedTregil]

Thanks to everyone who didn't post on a throw away GDB handle and actually tried to talk about the obvious balance issue and isn't being condescending.

The lowest post count on this thread is 90


Sooo, can someone say if humans can do the same stuff? I know as a human with maxed steal I Crit failed steal numerous times. 

[X-D]

Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

What risk? The odds of a crit fail with maxed celf hide is so tiny as to be treated as not existing.

Also, I have not been "got" in a VERY long time. I have had recent issues with attempts...many Many attempts in a row on multiple occasions. Nothing that mattered stolen, but I do not pay much attention to lower end stuff.

As to the "light mace" higher quality weapons and armor do tend to be lighter. But it was a fictional example, Insert other item with things sticking out here.

On to recourse.

IRL I have had 2 pickpocket attempts on me that I know of. One he was actually good enough that I noticed to late to stop him from making his escape, though I did notice early enough to stop the theft from being successful. The second was not so lucky. Both times in crowds, the second guy I actually did yell "Fuckin thief!" as I proceeded to give him a beat down...security did not hurry to break it up. The crowd simply circled giving enough room and watching.

Personally I think it would be pretty cool if arm crime code worked like that. Thief can be beat to a pulp by victim but not killed. Really don't understand why it is not that way.

[Armaddict]

Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

What risk? The odds of a crit fail with maxed celf hide is so tiny as to be treated as not existing.

Also, I have not been "got" in a VERY long time. I have had recent issues with attempts...many Many attempts in a row on multiple occasions. Nothing that mattered stolen, but I do not pay much attention to lower end stuff.

As to the "light mace" higher quality weapons and armor do tend to be lighter. But it was a fictional example, Insert other item with things sticking out here.

On to recourse.

IRL I have had 2 pickpocket attempts on me that I know of. One he was actually good enough that I noticed to late to stop him from making his escape, though I did notice early enough to stop the theft from being successful. The second was not so lucky. Both times in crowds, the second guy I actually did yell "Fuckin thief!" as I proceeded to give him a beat down...security did not hurry to break it up. The crowd simply circled giving enough room and watching.

Personally I think it would be pretty cool if arm crime code worked like that. Thief can be beat to a pulp by victim but not killed. Really don't understand why it is not that way.

Only pickpockets used to be able to 'feel free' with theft, there was always risk of crit fail even for exceptional agility city elves with advanced steal.

If theft has gotten out of control, it's likely a class rebalance issue.

But any discussion of 'But the vnpcs' or 'but the crowded room' is moot until such a point that the vnpcs of that crowded room also behave virtually in the direction of thievery.  The only thieves you have right now are PC's, so throwing the virtual protection framework up is neither helpful or conducive to good thievery roleplay.  All it does is say you don't want to be stolen from.

Item weights already contribute to success rates, meaning my burglars felt far more comfortable stealing small objects than being told to lift an item from someone's belt unless it was a knife.

This is not an 'obvious' balance issue, but rather a pretty complicated one that I'm not certain is actually stacked in anyone's favor.

[Nile]

Is there a way we could integrate mood into scan code? Or a gimped form of reveal?

Albeit in a more hack'n'slash' MUD, I think the premise itself is realistic. That is, setting mood to paranoid debuffed a bunch of stuff but made you considerably harder to steal from or even be backstabbed. If there's a thief at the bar and everyone knows,  PCs could go into paranoid mode. Not sure where the penalties would go in Armageddon, but this is essentially what people are RPing already; frequently emoting looking around, checking their own pockets etc.

Just an idea. Again, I don't kknow if this is even workable with our code since I don't know shit about shit with that.

[Nile]

Do all miscreants have infallible stealth? Or is it all about celf agility?

Having played a human teenager miscreant i had pretty ridiculous stealth. I could spot whirans/sneakies nobody else IG seemed to be capable of at the time where I was. I also never had any fear in any situation really. I was always in complete control due to the knowledge I was as close to a ghost as you could get.

it's likely there's about maybe half a dozen, at most, PCs at any one time that had scan to levels they'd spot me. Celf misreants are next level, but humans can go far too with age bonus.

[Derain]

My experience had been even with top notch wisdom and master scan, most elves are impossible to spot and if you do happen to see a shadow they are gone before you can type watch shadow and your next check on scan may not see them.

[Veselka]

My feeling is that stealth should decrease as you fail (Call it a de-buff). So if you fail once, your stealth begins to subtract. Fail twice, cumulative, etc. If you think you are such a good thief you can actively avoid people who are actively looking for you -- By all means, keep attempting to steal.

But I agree RP wise, it feels ridiculous when everyone knows there is a thief in a crowded bar, there are maybe 3-6 PCs actively looking, and the thief can just pluck their goods and peace out without consequence.

In general I feel that continuing stealth activity after being nearly spotted should be cumulatively more difficult. Not impossible. The 'masters' should still be quite adroit, but I imagine it also comes with a bit of PC intelligence, not reliance on binary (and somewhat unbelievable) code. Spamming multiple steal attempts is not only poor RP, it goes against the spirit of the game -- Code = RP, and that's not a well RP'd character that hides behind the code as a safety blanket.

As with most things I think there's a balance to be found here. I do agree that thieves tend to be crucified when they are discovered. Perhaps Allanak can incorporate some binary laws around thieving. Caught once, lose a finger. Caught twice, lose a hand. Caught three times, lose your head. Maybe a tradition they are proud of.

There are plenty of +hide gear, but no +scan gear that I am aware of. It would be nice to have a balance to such equipment without being overtly silly.