Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?

[Jihelu]

Very funny so like, are they glitched or what.

[roughneck]

If you have less than 3, PC's start killing them.

[kahuna]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

[Lizzie]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

1. The labyrinth is within the walls of the city.
2. Go east of Allanak and south a bit, you'll find well over a dozen NPC Allanaki soldiers in the general vicinity. You can find out IC why, but suffice it to say, there were reasons involving plots.
3. The NPC soldiers are at the labyrinth entry (which is not a gate) as a result of historic plot stuff. Sometimes they venture up a room or two up Hathor's but they typically stop at that point.

[Doublepalli]

Poor Amos, he tried to steal his meal for the day but got crim-coded. Somehow managed to avoid being caught by soldiers as he flees to the rinth...

Runs into a room with 8 half-giant soldiers next to home.

Mantis head.


Maybe we just want to minimize the chance of a shady getting away with a crime?

[gotdamnmiracle]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

1. The labyrinth is within the walls of the city.
2. Go east of Allanak and south a bit, you'll find well over a dozen NPC Allanaki soldiers in the general vicinity. You can find out IC why, but suffice it to say, there were reasons involving plots.
3. The NPC soldiers are at the labyrinth entry (which is not a gate) as a result of historic plot stuff. Sometimes they venture up a room or two up Hathor's but they typically stop at that point.

So your point is that at one time the numbers were relevant? I don't see how this is a compelling argument for why it's currently a mess. All it reminds me of is the banners from The Ocitillo Festival hanging up for about 6 months after it ended.

[Lizzie]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

1. The labyrinth is within the walls of the city.
2. Go east of Allanak and south a bit, you'll find well over a dozen NPC Allanaki soldiers in the general vicinity. You can find out IC why, but suffice it to say, there were reasons involving plots.
3. The NPC soldiers are at the labyrinth entry (which is not a gate) as a result of historic plot stuff. Sometimes they venture up a room or two up Hathor's but they typically stop at that point.

So your point is that at one time the numbers were relevant? I don't see how this is a compelling argument for why it's currently a mess. All it reminds me of is the banners from The Ocitillo Festival hanging up for about 6 months after it ended.

The reasons for both, as far as I know, are still relevant. And as I said, you can find out IC why regarding the soldiers outside the city. I don't know if you can find out IC why for the rinth or not. The presence of soldiers is ICly practical, believable, and sensible. The quantity in that specific location, I don't know if there's current reason. There was, in recent memory (within the last year).

[Dar]

There might be reasons why there are HGs blockading the rinth entrances.

It might also be due to HGs chasing seen criminals to the entrance.

While it is easy to confuse the real reason for a buggy one in this particular situation, it does not mean that the buggy situation does not exist.

[mattrious]

I am fairly certain there are multiple entrances to the labyrinth that are not guarded by NPC soldiers of any sort. If you do not like walking past a group of soldiers, maybe try finding another entrance or exit?

[Nile]

Can confirm: there are strong IG reasons from within the last year that warrants their presence.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Okay. Well whether they can be slapdashedly justified isn't exactly the question anyone is asking either, is it?

Are they too strong? I would say yes.
Are they in too great a number in certain areas? Yes.
Does this disincentivize certain styles of play due to buggy behavior with a veneer of justification? I would say it does.
Is "a wizard did it" valid justification for making poor design decisions? Certainly.
Does that make them valid design decisions? Nope.

This whole "well there's IG reasons for this behavior that looks and acts buggy" is such a non sequitur and loose justification that it adds nothing to the discussion.

Edit: if the plot needed them I am all for having them there, but once the plot finished maybe return it back to normal? You're telling me the blue-robe who negotiated that many bodies to stand there for the last however many months IG has that much pull? If you want to get nitpicky about VNPC populations then that means they're getting missed somewhere else and some squad or gate is operating undermanned while soldiers stand staring into a dark alley or at a field.

[kahuna]

Edit: if the plot needed them I am all for having them there, but once the plot finished maybe return it back to normal? You're telling me the blue-robe who negotiated that many bodies to stand there for the last however many months YEARS IG has that much pull? If you want to get nitpicky about VNPC populations then that means they're getting missed somewhere else and some squad or gate is operating undermanned while soldiers stand staring into a dark alley or at a field.

Fixed it for ya.

[Brokkr]

8 might be a bit much, but also remember Road of Slaves isn't IC'ly just a barren road that runs into Hathors.  It is also, literally, the slave market for Allanak. Right next to an opening to the rinth.  With nobles and such present.

"Slave market with slavers, nobles, templars, guards, and slaves that could escape" does not sound to me like a place a criminal should really feel secure in?

[Dar]

I do think we've fixated on slaver's road unnecessarily. Slaver's road is not a good example of the HG accumulation.


The HG accumulation as whole is an issue though. Nothing wrong with assembling many of them in one place. If Templarate wants to do it. Let them do it. But the HG numbers should be a finite resource. If you move them to one spot, there needs to be a shortage in another.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I do think we've fixated on slaver's road unnecessarily. Slaver's road is not a good example of the HG accumulation.


The HG accumulation as whole is an issue though. Nothing wrong with assembling many of them in one place. If Templarate wants to do it. Let them do it. But the HG numbers should be a finite resource. If you move them to one spot, there needs to be a shortage in another.

Yes! I was just about to suggest this. Thank you. I think that everyone would be more comfortable with these accumulations if they properly reflected a finite pool of guys getting pushed around. IC they're supposed to leave an area under strength, but my thief can't suddenly sneak into a Noble's estate or the Templar quarter any easier as a result because they are more literally being poofed into place.

If there were only like 10-15 hg operating in the city at any given time and they could be shuffled around by Templars as necessary I'd be fine with that. Some house is concerned about aides getting assassinated? Throw Templar Bingus a couple large and some half giants are suddenly outside the gate. Templar Bingus wants to walk around with 15 HG in tow? Well he's gonna catch shit when a Mekillot rushes through the gates because they were unguarded. Right now it's an infinite pool that breaks my immersion more than enforcing it.

In the case of soldiers encamped in a certain area long term? It'd really help your case if they appeared that way. If the half-giants at hathors had echoes of them performing checks on passing cloaked individuals, there were little stalls for them to stay out of the sun or cool their heels, etc.
The biggest offenders are those guys posted in the fields because they look like thry were placed there by accident. They aren't tented up, performing patrols, building watchtowers, anything really.

For all I can tell their strong IG reasons for being there are as ironclad as the strong IG reasons for a scrab being wherever it chased after my PC then promptly lost its scent. Sure it could be part of some master plan, but why should I assume that when they're doing nothing that shows semi-permanent fortification. Or anything, really.

All these cases look like someone forgot, not "working as intended".

[IronGold]

The biggest offenders are those guys posted in the fields because they look like thry were placed there by accident. They aren't tented up, performing patrols, building watchtowers, anything really.

For all I can tell their strong IG reasons for being there are as ironclad as the strong IG reasons for a scrab being wherever it chased after my PC then promptly lost its scent. Sure it could be part of some master plan, but why should I assume that when they're doing nothing that shows semi-permanent fortification. Or anything, really.

All these cases look like someone forgot, not "working as intended".

I would invite you to read the room descriptions. Just because an ldesc doesn't show them patrolling doesn't mean that's not what they're doing.

All this chatter about too many half giants makes me want to request placement of the hundreds of vnpc templars that also aren't present. While there can be many at times in an area it doesn't mean it is not an ic reflection. While hgs may be in certain areas I am fairly certain there are more human soldiers present as npcs than hg they just aren't as congregated.

Soldiers are so underpowered comparitively given how many brand new pcs end up killing them and considering in many cases they have spent years training and fighting.

[gotdamnmiracle]

That'd be silly. You would like to ruin all thief-play in Allanak because some players think that the amount of high-statted NPC guard units is over represented compared to the other amount of NPCs. I think your logic is flawed if you believe that representing supposed populations would work out in favor of your argument. A HUGE amount of VNPC are thieves, pickpockets, muggers, etc. By your logic if we represented all the swathes of blue-robes then we should represent the many thousands of sharps, humans, guildees, rinthis, Jaxa-Pah, unaffiliated, and every other gang that does low-brow work for a living.

Isn't something like 40% of all people in Nak are pickpockets? If you think the amount of soldiers outnumber the population of thieves you are sorely mistaken. Unless of course staff have updated the numbers or something.

[IronGold]

You do realize your own logic is flawed, correct?

You are asking to remove hg npcs, without replacement of a npc population that makes sense in order to make it easier for criminal pcs? You'd be correct by saying there are far more commoner population and likely that of thieves than soldiers, but what you're failing to grasp is the representation of power compared to those numbers. Soldiers, in general, are far more trained than your average commoner and thief. Then of course there is then actual power by way of templars. There is a balance that's kept and a reason the labyrinth even exists. So yes, at the end of the day it would work out in favor of my argument.

Back on point than arguing something that doesnt matter. I dont see any reason to make something easier for criminals to which that is already extremely easy comparitively. Criminals have it super easy and starting with a higher skill levels all around than what was there for many years prior has made it the easiest it's been in as long as I have played. The amount of NPC death seen in the game in places like Allanak tells that well.

Now I would be all for mercy on for soldiers to have more chances to be dragged to the cells rather than be killed.

[Hauwke]

You do realize your own logic is flawed, correct?

You are asking to remove hg npcs, without replacement of a npc population that makes sense in order to make it easier for criminal pcs? You'd be correct by saying there are far more commoner population and likely that of thieves than soldiers, but what you're failing to grasp is the representation of power compared to those numbers. Soldiers, in general, are far more trained than your average commoner and thief. Then of course there is then actual power by way of templars. There is a balance that's kept and a reason the labyrinth even exists. So yes, at the end of the day it would work out in favor of my argument.

Back on point than arguing something that doesnt matter. I dont see any reason to make something easier for criminals to which that is already extremely easy comparitively. Criminals have it super easy and starting with a higher skill levels all around than what was there for many years prior has made it the easiest it's been in as long as I have played. The amount of NPC death seen in the game in places like Allanak tells that well.

Now I would be all for mercy on for soldiers to have more chances to be dragged to the cells rather than be killed.

A lot of the real issue in my mind is that every Tom, Dick and Harry instantly resort to code. You will be sitting having an ale and some fucker will come up and use the threaten they have queued from the other room even though you have been sitting for ages and they had absolutely no reason to be following in the first place.

And then on the other side, the criminals instantly flee as well. Why? Because if they don't their desc gets around or they get the 12 people that instantly know where they are attacking them.

Its not so much poor game design with the NPC soldier base being misrepresented. It's the player side of the interaction being driven by sides refusing to lose.

You are not Batman, you are not Conan the barbarian, you are not Judge Dredd. You are a regular ass person. In the case of Templar PC's, sure it is a tiny bit different, but still not to the extent people like to play out.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I mean, yes, this is a product of bigger issues, but we know that staff won't go for Mdesc hiding items and code is the only way to affect players across the board. You can plea for people to RP better, but if it's an inefficient strategy they simply won't 80-90% of the time. Recall the month long debate about the j-man plateau on combat skills and how even though you shouldn't twink it's the primo strategy. It's also the reason staff changed code to disincentivize doing it.

And I think a lot of PCs just end up being super-human. It's simply a fact. It's pretty hard to deny they are more than regular joes when my PC is out slaughtering Dujat and riding from Storm to Tuluk in less than an IG day, while most people in game are terrified to leave the walls of whichever city they live in. The surroundings tend to tell players (other than the socialites) that they're better, IMO.

[Hauwke]

I mean, yes, this is a product of bigger issues, but we know that staff won't go for Mdesc hiding items and code is the only way to affect players across the board. You can plea for people to RP better, but if it's an inefficient strategy they simply won't 80-90% of the time. Recall the month long debate about the j-man plateau on combat skills and how even though you shouldn't twink it's the primo strategy. It's also the reason staff changed code to disincentivize doing it.

And I think a lot of PCs just end up being super-human. It's simply a fact. It's pretty hard to deny they are more than regular joes when my PC is out slaughtering Dujat and riding from Storm to Tuluk in less than an IG day, while most people in game are terrified to leave the walls of whichever city they live in. The surroundings tend to tell players (other than the socialites) that they're better, IMO.

They won't RP better because there are absolutely no consequences to them nabbing and ruining the fifth elf concept this week because they remembered to log his mdesc three weeks ago. Because it can be explained away as 'Oh he matched the build.'.

Having mdesc hiding gear would solve a lot of issues. But it would also cause others. It would 100% make the players of soldier PC's even more code driven. I have played with them, I know what they are like. Every single one? Nope. But as a whole they are. And sneaks are always the same.

Why?

No. Consequences.

[Riev]

Regardless of all that..


I don't think NPC soldiers are too buff. I think they're sufficiently codedly capable, while not be one-man murder machines.
Half-giants, from what I understood, are good for one thing. Whatever ONE THING you tell them to do. Patrol and arrest anyone with dirty hair. Stand here and look menacing. Only let people wearing a Militia cloak or Templar Robes through.

They're not supposed to be good at discerning minutia and nuance. When a bunch are stacked up in one area, as NPCs, the assumption is those half a dozen half giants are representative of the virtual population as well. So why are there a hundred half-giants in that one area?

And lets not kid ourselves. They "gang up" on the Slavers Way/Hathor's because they chase people who are running to the lawlessness of the Labyrinth, and the game's code doesn't return them to their previous posts. Any half-giant picked up on the way comes along and gets dumped there. Rarely, very rarely, are they placed there on purpose (and if they are, I sincerely hop someone on staff is noticing and asking why a bunch of resources are being put into a place that historically hasn't needed it)

[Dar]

Is Celf weakness still a thing? Miscreants rule the world, don't they? Is this still even under dispute?

[Armaddict]

NPC soldiers are not too buff.  Even half-giant soldiers are generally killable, but there is a strong aversion to it because of the nature of crimcode.

The 'soldier has arrived from nearby' is not a good addition, never was, and all this 'virtual world' stuff is entirely one-sided.  Once you start implementing virtual thievery, virtual muggers that pop into existence, virtual half-elves to focus on in the establishments people want to be nicer without a doorman...then I'll start believing you.  All the virtual world emphasis does now is stifle, not tell people to involve it in their roleplay.

Simply put, it removes content from the game.  It doesn't add it.  People don't 'remember the virtual world', they just avoid doing things.

[Riev]

NPC soldiers are not too buff.  Even half-giant soldiers are generally killable, but there is a strong aversion to it because of the nature of crimcode.

The 'soldier has arrived from nearby' is not a good addition, never was, and all this 'virtual world' stuff is entirely one-sided.  Once you start implementing virtual thievery, virtual muggers that pop into existence, virtual half-elves to focus on in the establishments people want to be nicer without a doorman...then I'll start believing you.  All the virtual world emphasis does now is stifle, not tell people to involve it in their roleplay.

Simply put, it removes content from the game.  It doesn't add it.  People don't 'remember the virtual world', they just avoid doing things.

For example, to combat the 'half giant NPC posted at the entrance to the 'rinth' issue, one could presumably get a few enterprising 'rinthers together to chase/kill off this NPC. However, the ability to call virtual soldiers into the active domain is entirely too stifling. PC thieves, regardless of affiliation, do not have the ability to call in gangs on good terms without 3 weeks of back and forth with staff, and 2 reboots that have since moved that NPC soldier in the first place.

The NPC, itself, isn't difficult to kill. Hell, if I can SEE other soldiers in the area that might come to their aid, I might avoid it or bring backup. The issue is when either 3+ NPCs filter into the same place from chasing bad thieves, or the scripting that pulls soldiers from the virtual surroundings that we, as PCs, cannot account for.