Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?

[Thomoto]

Discuss.

[Dar]

Are they? too buff?  I didn't think they were.


I mean, a well trained warrior class can accidentally kill one, or two before even managing to stop.


There may need to be a 'limit' on how many Militia HGs are available in the city at a time. That might be true.
But overall? I imagine every guild except the craftsmen, will eventually reach a point where 1-2 soldiers at the same time is 'no big deal'.

[cnemus]

They all need +10 strength.

Nosave arrest or die.

This is not intended as a troll post. Seriously I think the run from the cops or fight your way out as opposed to a time out or fine should be less common. There is RP to be found on the other end of an arrest. Play how you like, but I would prefer we reward player engagement as opposed to playing vs. NPCs. There are other existing options to avoid the clink, if that is the goal (that I don't care to list on the GDB). Find a successful thief/murderer/criminal IG and learn their secrets.

[mansa]

I'd like to see (if they don't have it already) that NPC soldiers have mercy on.

And maybe a few more NPC soldiers have clubs instead of swords, so they can knock you out instead of killing you - and drag you to jail knocked out.  Does that work for NPCs, though?

[Bebop]

They all need +10 strength.

Nosave arrest or die.

This is not intended as a troll post. Seriously I think the run from the cops or fight your way out as opposed to a time out or fine should be less common. There is RP to be found on the other end of an arrest. Play how you like, but I would prefer we reward player engagement as opposed to playing vs. NPCs. There are other existing options to avoid the clink, if that is the goal (that I don't care to list on the GDB). Find a successful thief/murderer/criminal IG and learn their secrets.

But player engagement can also result in crime code so that doesn't really make any sense.

[Heade]

There may need to be a 'limit' on how many Militia HGs are available in the city at a time.

This. If there weren't so many HGs, it wouldn't be bad. HGs are over-represented based on their supposed population.

[Nile]

What's the demographic breakdown for the Arm of the Dragon? HG's seem like they'd be more common there to me.

[Hauwke]

What's the demographic breakdown for the Arm of the Dragon? HG's seem like they'd be more common there to me.

In the entire 500,000 people of Allanak, I think? Half giants make up like 12,000 I think. If memory serves about 1 percent of the city is AoD, making it about 5,000 soldiers all told. Applying the same percent of the general population that half-giants make up, you end up with 120 half giant soldiers.

[Lizzie]

What's the demographic breakdown for the Arm of the Dragon? HG's seem like they'd be more common there to me.

In the entire 500,000 people of Allanak, I think? Half giants make up like 12,000 I think. If memory serves about 1 percent of the city is AoD, making it about 5,000 soldiers all told. Applying the same percent of the general population that half-giants make up, you end up with 120 half giant soldiers.

Makes sense to me that the city would employ a good chunk of those half-giants as their "muscle" on the streets. They're not much use anywhere else. If there are 12,000 HGs worldwide, and even just 1/4 of that in Allanak (3000) then you can bet a solid thousand of them will be among those soldiers - and a few dozen of them will be NPCs.

[Shabago]

Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)


Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)


Circa 2008~

Wouldn't have horrifically changed too much with up and down periods over the years.

[Lizzie]

So +/- 3800 HGs in Allanak, 20% slaves.

Could definitely account for the NPC HG Soldier population then, if HGs are the "muscle of choice."

[kahuna]

I think a problem is using the virtual world as if it has limitless numbers within it. Being able to "poof" soldiers into existence is great and all but the only clan in the whole game that gets to do that is the city soldiers. It should be an even playing field, if one clan can pull from their virtual resources so easily others should be able to as well.

[number13]

I, for one, welcome the idea of endless waves of elves automatically spawning to zerg any heavily armored individuals that wander into the Rinth.

[Dar]

The thing is that AoD is not a police force. It's a Militia. An Army. Most assuredly there are a lot of half giants in AoD. But the very last place where they'll be used often would be policing the streets. The environment is the most unpredictable there. The function of a mobile came does not do well for an HG.

A small contingent of them sure. In terms of riots, or sudden need of overwhelming force. Patrolling the streets? That would be silly.

[Heade]

So +/- 3800 HGs in Allanak, 20% slaves.

Could definitely account for the NPC HG Soldier population then, if HGs are the "muscle of choice."

Pretty much all HGs in the AoD(except PCs), are slaves raised from birth for the job. 20% of HGs being slaves means around 760 HG slaves in Allanak. Even if Tektolnes owns 100% of the HG slaves in Allanak, 760 isn't enough to justify all the HG NPCs in the game. One would have to assume that HGs are present in important areas not in the public eye, on missions with military regiments, etc. Not JUST kicking rocks around patrolling the city.

Furthermore, even if they all WERE patrolling around the city, you wouldn't see them as often as is represented in the game. You can't walk a few rooms without seeing a HG soldier somewhere. I've lived in a real city with half a million people, and they had over 1700 police officers in their police department, triple what Allanak has in HGs. While the city in question didn't have HGs, they have police cars, so the cars sort of stick out like a HG would. I didn't see police anywhere near as often in said city as I see HG soldiers in Allanak. The number of HG soldiers seen by PCs should be representative of how often they'd be seen with only 760 in a population of half a million. That is to say, not very often.

I think HG NPCs should be limited to super-important, crucial choke points for the city, like guarding the gates, the noble's quarter, and templar's quarter.

[Lizzie]

I think at one point there weren't nearly as many NPC soldiers as there are now. But years ago, there were some crashes that spawned duplicates upon reboot. I would assume many of the soldier NPCs are the unintentional duplicates. At the time I remember bugrepping bunches of them in the elemental quarter where you'd see 8-10 identical HGs just standing in the same spot for several RL days in a row.

I don't think those HGs need to be tweaked, and I don't think they need to replaced with non-HGs. I think there are just a few too many of them and a few of them need to go poof. I also feel that some kind of script should be added, that makes the soldiers disperse back to their spawn point, after their target is either a) dead, b) deposited in a jail cell, c) no longer in Allanak, or d) logged out of the game.

I feel that would go a long way to "repair" what some perceive as a problem (I personally don't care one way or another since it doesn't affect me personally but I get that perception).

[Doublepalli]

Like 8 halfgiant soldiers standing right outside of the rinth seems a bit much

[Alesan]

Duplicated NPCs are a thing. We've all seen it, we all know about it, but considering it keeps happening and it's been happening for the last, what, half a decade at least? I'm going to just guess working as intended at this point.

[Bebop]

Duplicated NPCs are a thing. We've all seen it, we all know about it, but considering it keeps happening and it's been happening for the last, what, half a decade at least? I'm going to just guess working as intended at this point.

It's not a bug it's a feature?  Duplicate NPCs are actually highly problematic for sneakies.

[Hauwke]

It is problem for anyone going against the law.

[Alesan]

Duplicated NPCs are a thing. We've all seen it, we all know about it, but considering it keeps happening and it's been happening for the last, what, half a decade at least? I'm going to just guess working as intended at this point.

It's not a bug it's a feature?  Duplicate NPCs are actually highly problematic for sneakies.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find out that there's intent to fix it. Every time I walk past a list of ten HG soldiers or some other similar thing, there's a small part of me that wishes something could finally be done about it. I just don't really believe it'll happen.

[Brokkr]

I'd say "Find out IC" for some of the stuff that has been said, but that is kind of hard to do when there is some misperceptions and outright guesses being passed off as factual.

Allanak militia is roughly:

10,000 human soldiers (free)
3,000 slave soldiers (mostly human)
1,000 half giant soldiers (most of them are free)

Additionally Allanak has about 15,000 work slaves that could be given a weapon and made to fight.

With another assorted 1,000 odd of other forces (Templars, Gemmed, Scorpions, etc), that is about 30k.

Unlike someone said, nearly all the Allanak half giants are free.  I believe they got confused with Tuluk, where indeed out of 3,500 half giants in the population, 80% are slaves.

[Inks]

Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

[Inks]

Thanks for leaving the actual facts in at least.

[Dar]

Made me chuckle.

When I read about HGs slaves, I wondered about validity of it. Why would they be slaves? Army lives fit HGs so well. It is a natural vacation for many of them. If anything, slave HGs are used for jobs that they don't already enjoy. Ie lifting giant blocks of obsidian blocks to build a giant obsidian pyramid in the middle of the city. Or hacking at that obsidian inside a mine, etc. While HGs in the army should be happy to be where they are. Lots of action, lots of repeatative action, and always someone enigmatic and authorative to mimic nearby.

Then I wondered if Tuluk would be different? And I guess there would be. Because Tuluk uses other methods to assure guidance and compliance then allanak.

If you think about it. In terms of free will and freedom to live the life of your choice, Allanak is a lot more liberal then Tuluk.

[Fathi]

Duplicated NPCs are a thing. We've all seen it, we all know about it, but considering it keeps happening and it's been happening for the last, what, half a decade at least? I'm going to just guess working as intended at this point.

It's not a bug it's a feature?  Duplicate NPCs are actually highly problematic for sneakies.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find out that there's intent to fix it. Every time I walk past a list of ten HG soldiers or some other similar thing, there's a small part of me that wishes something could finally be done about it. I just don't really believe it'll happen.

Staff have told me in the past that it's cool to wish up if you come across big groups of soldiers. Just "wish all Hey, there's 12 soldiers in the Gaj right now, unless that's for a reason could someone scatter them?" should work.

(If this has changed, obvs a staffer can correct me.)

[Brokkr]

Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

All NPCs spawn instantly.  Not really sure what you meant by this.

[kahuna]

Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

All NPCs spawn instantly.  Not really sure what you meant by this.

I think he means the way certain pcs are given commands to spawn them instantly wherever they want via certain commands.

[Greve]

The soldiers aren't individually too tough, but the fact of the matter is that if you're ever doing anything where fighting an NPC soldier is an option, you're likely to be fighting three or four of them. The half-giant ones are of course absurd, it being a race that really shouldn't exist, but the general skill level of basic soldiers is such that any competent fighter can stand toe to toe with one or two of them and have plenty of time to emote or whatever. If not for the fact that fully half of them do horrendous wounds on every swing, it'd be fine. The game would be better served without a race that does five times as much damage as normal, but that issue is by no means limited to NPC soldiers.

[Brokkr]

Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

All NPCs spawn instantly.  Not really sure what you meant by this.

I think he means the way certain pcs are given commands to spawn them instantly wherever they want via certain commands.

You are mistaken, no PC has that ability.  Templar's can spawn soldiers in very specific rooms, like barracks, where there would be a concentration of vNPC soldiers at all times.

[Riev]

There have been times that I have noticed an NPC Soldier attacking someone (like a rat) and they 'summon' other soldiers to attack that poof away at the end. Its some sort of reinforcement script.

That may be what people are talking about. The ability to have soldiers in a room where there previously were no NPCs. I always assumed it a 'feature' that the virtual NPCs are coming to help the actual NPC.

[Brokkr]

There are such scripts, to reinforce that you have to take into account the virtual world.  They are not that common and afaik none are on PC callable NPCs, though I may be mistaken there.  Not having such scripts would be counter to a premise of this thread, because there would be even more NPCs needed.

This isn't a hack an slash where the spawned NPC represents the extent of the challenge.  Devirtualization happens and one should take into account the virtual world in part because of that.

[Dar]

Pretty sure templars can summon guards in more plAces then just the barracks. Whether it's supposed to be that way, or not I don't know. I never found it to be a problem. Templars are pretty squishy against long lived organized entities. The ability to have overwhelming force while inside the city seems like a thing that should be happening.

[Lizzie]

Pretty sure templars can summon guards in more plAces then just the barracks. Whether it's supposed to be that way, or not I don't know. I never found it to be a problem. Templars are pretty squishy against long lived organized entities. The ability to have overwhelming force while inside the city seems like a thing that should be happening.

They can call nearby NPCs, I believe from 1 room away in any direction. Maybe anywhere within "look" distance (very far, far, near so 3 rooms away max)? But those aren't summoning NPCs out of virtual space into coded space. Those NPCs really were in those other rooms, and now they're standing with the templar.

[X-D]

I have always found npc soldiers to be rather weak...somewhere around the 10-15 day byn warrior at the most.

And HG's...well, one should simply avoid messing with them.

[gotdamnmiracle]

If having a zillion HG is preferred? Complete the rooftops across the city and allow movement through the main quarters using them (and maybe even out of the city).

If you don't want to copy-paste some rooftops across the city? Reduce the soldier population.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Disregard.

[kahuna]

If having a zillion HG is preferred? Complete the rooftops across the city and allow movement through the main quarters using them (and maybe even out of the city).

If you don't want to copy-paste some rooftops across the city? Reduce the soldier population.

Being able to traverse the entire city via rooftop would be awesome.

[Magnate]

If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

[Riev]

If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

I will kill them immediately, or throw them off the rooftops myself. Its dangerous up there.

The rooftops are supposed to give a sense of 'retreat' to a criminal, because only an enterprising Militia would go up there to chase down a criminal, knowing the rooftops are FULL of them.

[gotdamnmiracle]

If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

I will kill them immediately, or throw them off the rooftops myself. Its dangerous up there.

The rooftops are supposed to give a sense of 'retreat' to a criminal, because only an enterprising Militia would go up there to chase down a criminal, knowing the rooftops are FULL of them.

Absolutely, and there already are some criminal NPCs on the roofs of the southern quarter. I would love to see more life breathed into those roofs and make them essentially an extension of the Rinth. "Don't go on the rooftops unless you want to get stabbed, robbed, or both." It'd be great if they were full of hideyholes, shops, different groups. I absolutely love the flavor of the elven ghetto that already lives on the roof in the Commoner quarter.

If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

Because it's inconvenient and borderline illegal to use them as transit. Think of cops. Why do cops walk a beat and patrol the streets? Because that's where normal law abiding citizens are. Not necessarily where crime is. But also some organizations HAVE rooftop guards, don't forget.

If having a zillion HG is preferred? Complete the rooftops across the city and allow movement through the main quarters using them (and maybe even out of the city).

If you don't want to copy-paste some rooftops across the city? Reduce the soldier population.

Being able to traverse the entire city via rooftop would be awesome.

I imagine the Noble quarter and Templar quarter would be out of the picture, or at least dangerous to get into, but having a full Gemmer, merchant, and Rinthi quarters? Oh yeah!

[Magnate]

I disagree.

If rooftops are used often by criminals, law enforcement would follow - be they soldiers or otherwise.

It isn't realistic to simply say, "they need a sense of retreat". Law enforcement (remember, these aren't cops in some democracy) do not want criminals to have a sense of retreat.

I will kill them immediately... Every PC you play would be inclined to kill them immediately? It sounds like you are taking it a tad personally and perhaps allowing emotions to block the fact that this is a role playing game where we play the roles of people in a particular world setting - not ourselves.

Soldiers in places of oppression usually go to where opposition gathers - not avoid it. If they are using the rooftops, they just make going to the rooftops illegal. If you want a sense of retreat, run off to the Labyrinth. To use "cops"  as a reference isn't really comparing apples-to-apples.

[roughneck]

Soldiers cost coins.

Nobles and merchants want to keep their coins.

Soldiers prevent crime, which means, fighting crime costs coins.

So why are nobles and merchants going to pay for crime-fighting on the rooftops?

The won't. Just like they won't pay for it in the labyrinth. Because, who cares about the people who live in those places, let them kill and steal from each other.

Tax money protects the rich, and in a place like Allanak, that privileged reality of the wealthy should slap you in the face.

[Magnate]

There is a whole lot of assumptions there; I'm not certain that is actually how it works with regards to taxes or who gets a say. Again - Allanak isn't a democracy.  Not by a longshot.

Neat discussion though!

[Dar]

If reality followed your reasoning then going to the rinth would be illegal and the soldiers would go there. Since they don't, how would rooftops be different?

[gotdamnmiracle]

If reality followed your reasoning then going to the rinth would be illegal and the soldiers would go there. Since they don't, how would rooftops be different?

+1

I too see a few issues with reasoning in a post that admonishes others for making assumptions.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'd like to see (if they don't have it already) that NPC soldiers have mercy on.

And maybe a few more NPC soldiers have clubs instead of swords, so they can knock you out instead of killing you - and drag you to jail knocked out.  Does that work for NPCs, though?

Honestly, I feel like this one implementation may've saved so many PC's who've accidentally used 'kick' in a bar fight.

If militia could tell non-citizens apart from citizens (like having them recognize a flag on a PC), perhaps have them respond differently.

>If PC has flagCitizenAllanak;
>toggle mercy on
>Else
>toggle mercy off

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I'd like to see (if they don't have it already) that NPC soldiers have mercy on.

And maybe a few more NPC soldiers have clubs instead of swords, so they can knock you out instead of killing you - and drag you to jail knocked out.  Does that work for NPCs, though?

Honestly, I feel like this one implementation may've saved so many PC's who've accidentally used 'kick' in a bar fight.

If militia could tell non-citizens apart from citizens (like having them recognize a flag on a PC), perhaps have them respond differently.

>If PC has flagCitizenAllanak;
>toggle mercy on
>Else
>toggle mercy off

Thought this was already a thing. I know I've been knocked out by NPC guards and taken to jail before. As long as I have nosave on.

[Inks]

Like 8 halfgiant soldiers standing right outside of the rinth seems a bit much

For about the last RL year.

[Enthemu]

Like 8 halfgiant soldiers standing right outside of the rinth seems a bit much

For about the last RL year.

If you think 8 is a lot, you should see how many are there virtually. We keep trying to tell them to move on, but they just love to hang out near the larger alley entrances.

[Jihelu]

Very funny so like, are they glitched or what.

[roughneck]

If you have less than 3, PC's start killing them.

[kahuna]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

[Lizzie]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

1. The labyrinth is within the walls of the city.
2. Go east of Allanak and south a bit, you'll find well over a dozen NPC Allanaki soldiers in the general vicinity. You can find out IC why, but suffice it to say, there were reasons involving plots.
3. The NPC soldiers are at the labyrinth entry (which is not a gate) as a result of historic plot stuff. Sometimes they venture up a room or two up Hathor's but they typically stop at that point.

[Doublepalli]

Poor Amos, he tried to steal his meal for the day but got crim-coded. Somehow managed to avoid being caught by soldiers as he flees to the rinth...

Runs into a room with 8 half-giant soldiers next to home.

Mantis head.


Maybe we just want to minimize the chance of a shady getting away with a crime?

[gotdamnmiracle]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

1. The labyrinth is within the walls of the city.
2. Go east of Allanak and south a bit, you'll find well over a dozen NPC Allanaki soldiers in the general vicinity. You can find out IC why, but suffice it to say, there were reasons involving plots.
3. The NPC soldiers are at the labyrinth entry (which is not a gate) as a result of historic plot stuff. Sometimes they venture up a room or two up Hathor's but they typically stop at that point.

So your point is that at one time the numbers were relevant? I don't see how this is a compelling argument for why it's currently a mess. All it reminds me of is the banners from The Ocitillo Festival hanging up for about 6 months after it ended.

[Lizzie]

What is the reason for having 8 NPC halfgiant soldiers chilling in an area known for lawlessness and aggression towards soldiers/templar presence? Is there anywhere else in the game where this is allowed? Do we see 8 NPC halfgiants raiders chilling 2 rooms outside of allanaks gates?

1. The labyrinth is within the walls of the city.
2. Go east of Allanak and south a bit, you'll find well over a dozen NPC Allanaki soldiers in the general vicinity. You can find out IC why, but suffice it to say, there were reasons involving plots.
3. The NPC soldiers are at the labyrinth entry (which is not a gate) as a result of historic plot stuff. Sometimes they venture up a room or two up Hathor's but they typically stop at that point.

So your point is that at one time the numbers were relevant? I don't see how this is a compelling argument for why it's currently a mess. All it reminds me of is the banners from The Ocitillo Festival hanging up for about 6 months after it ended.

The reasons for both, as far as I know, are still relevant. And as I said, you can find out IC why regarding the soldiers outside the city. I don't know if you can find out IC why for the rinth or not. The presence of soldiers is ICly practical, believable, and sensible. The quantity in that specific location, I don't know if there's current reason. There was, in recent memory (within the last year).

[Dar]

There might be reasons why there are HGs blockading the rinth entrances.

It might also be due to HGs chasing seen criminals to the entrance.

While it is easy to confuse the real reason for a buggy one in this particular situation, it does not mean that the buggy situation does not exist.

[mattrious]

I am fairly certain there are multiple entrances to the labyrinth that are not guarded by NPC soldiers of any sort. If you do not like walking past a group of soldiers, maybe try finding another entrance or exit?

[Nile]

Can confirm: there are strong IG reasons from within the last year that warrants their presence.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Okay. Well whether they can be slapdashedly justified isn't exactly the question anyone is asking either, is it?

Are they too strong? I would say yes.
Are they in too great a number in certain areas? Yes.
Does this disincentivize certain styles of play due to buggy behavior with a veneer of justification? I would say it does.
Is "a wizard did it" valid justification for making poor design decisions? Certainly.
Does that make them valid design decisions? Nope.

This whole "well there's IG reasons for this behavior that looks and acts buggy" is such a non sequitur and loose justification that it adds nothing to the discussion.

Edit: if the plot needed them I am all for having them there, but once the plot finished maybe return it back to normal? You're telling me the blue-robe who negotiated that many bodies to stand there for the last however many months IG has that much pull? If you want to get nitpicky about VNPC populations then that means they're getting missed somewhere else and some squad or gate is operating undermanned while soldiers stand staring into a dark alley or at a field.

[kahuna]

Edit: if the plot needed them I am all for having them there, but once the plot finished maybe return it back to normal? You're telling me the blue-robe who negotiated that many bodies to stand there for the last however many months YEARS IG has that much pull? If you want to get nitpicky about VNPC populations then that means they're getting missed somewhere else and some squad or gate is operating undermanned while soldiers stand staring into a dark alley or at a field.

Fixed it for ya.

[Brokkr]

8 might be a bit much, but also remember Road of Slaves isn't IC'ly just a barren road that runs into Hathors.  It is also, literally, the slave market for Allanak. Right next to an opening to the rinth.  With nobles and such present.

"Slave market with slavers, nobles, templars, guards, and slaves that could escape" does not sound to me like a place a criminal should really feel secure in?

[Dar]

I do think we've fixated on slaver's road unnecessarily. Slaver's road is not a good example of the HG accumulation.


The HG accumulation as whole is an issue though. Nothing wrong with assembling many of them in one place. If Templarate wants to do it. Let them do it. But the HG numbers should be a finite resource. If you move them to one spot, there needs to be a shortage in another.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I do think we've fixated on slaver's road unnecessarily. Slaver's road is not a good example of the HG accumulation.


The HG accumulation as whole is an issue though. Nothing wrong with assembling many of them in one place. If Templarate wants to do it. Let them do it. But the HG numbers should be a finite resource. If you move them to one spot, there needs to be a shortage in another.

Yes! I was just about to suggest this. Thank you. I think that everyone would be more comfortable with these accumulations if they properly reflected a finite pool of guys getting pushed around. IC they're supposed to leave an area under strength, but my thief can't suddenly sneak into a Noble's estate or the Templar quarter any easier as a result because they are more literally being poofed into place.

If there were only like 10-15 hg operating in the city at any given time and they could be shuffled around by Templars as necessary I'd be fine with that. Some house is concerned about aides getting assassinated? Throw Templar Bingus a couple large and some half giants are suddenly outside the gate. Templar Bingus wants to walk around with 15 HG in tow? Well he's gonna catch shit when a Mekillot rushes through the gates because they were unguarded. Right now it's an infinite pool that breaks my immersion more than enforcing it.

In the case of soldiers encamped in a certain area long term? It'd really help your case if they appeared that way. If the half-giants at hathors had echoes of them performing checks on passing cloaked individuals, there were little stalls for them to stay out of the sun or cool their heels, etc.
The biggest offenders are those guys posted in the fields because they look like thry were placed there by accident. They aren't tented up, performing patrols, building watchtowers, anything really.

For all I can tell their strong IG reasons for being there are as ironclad as the strong IG reasons for a scrab being wherever it chased after my PC then promptly lost its scent. Sure it could be part of some master plan, but why should I assume that when they're doing nothing that shows semi-permanent fortification. Or anything, really.

All these cases look like someone forgot, not "working as intended".

[IronGold]

The biggest offenders are those guys posted in the fields because they look like thry were placed there by accident. They aren't tented up, performing patrols, building watchtowers, anything really.

For all I can tell their strong IG reasons for being there are as ironclad as the strong IG reasons for a scrab being wherever it chased after my PC then promptly lost its scent. Sure it could be part of some master plan, but why should I assume that when they're doing nothing that shows semi-permanent fortification. Or anything, really.

All these cases look like someone forgot, not "working as intended".

I would invite you to read the room descriptions. Just because an ldesc doesn't show them patrolling doesn't mean that's not what they're doing.

All this chatter about too many half giants makes me want to request placement of the hundreds of vnpc templars that also aren't present. While there can be many at times in an area it doesn't mean it is not an ic reflection. While hgs may be in certain areas I am fairly certain there are more human soldiers present as npcs than hg they just aren't as congregated.

Soldiers are so underpowered comparitively given how many brand new pcs end up killing them and considering in many cases they have spent years training and fighting.

[gotdamnmiracle]

That'd be silly. You would like to ruin all thief-play in Allanak because some players think that the amount of high-statted NPC guard units is over represented compared to the other amount of NPCs. I think your logic is flawed if you believe that representing supposed populations would work out in favor of your argument. A HUGE amount of VNPC are thieves, pickpockets, muggers, etc. By your logic if we represented all the swathes of blue-robes then we should represent the many thousands of sharps, humans, guildees, rinthis, Jaxa-Pah, unaffiliated, and every other gang that does low-brow work for a living.

Isn't something like 40% of all people in Nak are pickpockets? If you think the amount of soldiers outnumber the population of thieves you are sorely mistaken. Unless of course staff have updated the numbers or something.

[IronGold]

You do realize your own logic is flawed, correct?

You are asking to remove hg npcs, without replacement of a npc population that makes sense in order to make it easier for criminal pcs? You'd be correct by saying there are far more commoner population and likely that of thieves than soldiers, but what you're failing to grasp is the representation of power compared to those numbers. Soldiers, in general, are far more trained than your average commoner and thief. Then of course there is then actual power by way of templars. There is a balance that's kept and a reason the labyrinth even exists. So yes, at the end of the day it would work out in favor of my argument.

Back on point than arguing something that doesnt matter. I dont see any reason to make something easier for criminals to which that is already extremely easy comparitively. Criminals have it super easy and starting with a higher skill levels all around than what was there for many years prior has made it the easiest it's been in as long as I have played. The amount of NPC death seen in the game in places like Allanak tells that well.

Now I would be all for mercy on for soldiers to have more chances to be dragged to the cells rather than be killed.

[Hauwke]

You do realize your own logic is flawed, correct?

You are asking to remove hg npcs, without replacement of a npc population that makes sense in order to make it easier for criminal pcs? You'd be correct by saying there are far more commoner population and likely that of thieves than soldiers, but what you're failing to grasp is the representation of power compared to those numbers. Soldiers, in general, are far more trained than your average commoner and thief. Then of course there is then actual power by way of templars. There is a balance that's kept and a reason the labyrinth even exists. So yes, at the end of the day it would work out in favor of my argument.

Back on point than arguing something that doesnt matter. I dont see any reason to make something easier for criminals to which that is already extremely easy comparitively. Criminals have it super easy and starting with a higher skill levels all around than what was there for many years prior has made it the easiest it's been in as long as I have played. The amount of NPC death seen in the game in places like Allanak tells that well.

Now I would be all for mercy on for soldiers to have more chances to be dragged to the cells rather than be killed.

A lot of the real issue in my mind is that every Tom, Dick and Harry instantly resort to code. You will be sitting having an ale and some fucker will come up and use the threaten they have queued from the other room even though you have been sitting for ages and they had absolutely no reason to be following in the first place.

And then on the other side, the criminals instantly flee as well. Why? Because if they don't their desc gets around or they get the 12 people that instantly know where they are attacking them.

Its not so much poor game design with the NPC soldier base being misrepresented. It's the player side of the interaction being driven by sides refusing to lose.

You are not Batman, you are not Conan the barbarian, you are not Judge Dredd. You are a regular ass person. In the case of Templar PC's, sure it is a tiny bit different, but still not to the extent people like to play out.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I mean, yes, this is a product of bigger issues, but we know that staff won't go for Mdesc hiding items and code is the only way to affect players across the board. You can plea for people to RP better, but if it's an inefficient strategy they simply won't 80-90% of the time. Recall the month long debate about the j-man plateau on combat skills and how even though you shouldn't twink it's the primo strategy. It's also the reason staff changed code to disincentivize doing it.

And I think a lot of PCs just end up being super-human. It's simply a fact. It's pretty hard to deny they are more than regular joes when my PC is out slaughtering Dujat and riding from Storm to Tuluk in less than an IG day, while most people in game are terrified to leave the walls of whichever city they live in. The surroundings tend to tell players (other than the socialites) that they're better, IMO.

[Hauwke]

I mean, yes, this is a product of bigger issues, but we know that staff won't go for Mdesc hiding items and code is the only way to affect players across the board. You can plea for people to RP better, but if it's an inefficient strategy they simply won't 80-90% of the time. Recall the month long debate about the j-man plateau on combat skills and how even though you shouldn't twink it's the primo strategy. It's also the reason staff changed code to disincentivize doing it.

And I think a lot of PCs just end up being super-human. It's simply a fact. It's pretty hard to deny they are more than regular joes when my PC is out slaughtering Dujat and riding from Storm to Tuluk in less than an IG day, while most people in game are terrified to leave the walls of whichever city they live in. The surroundings tend to tell players (other than the socialites) that they're better, IMO.

They won't RP better because there are absolutely no consequences to them nabbing and ruining the fifth elf concept this week because they remembered to log his mdesc three weeks ago. Because it can be explained away as 'Oh he matched the build.'.

Having mdesc hiding gear would solve a lot of issues. But it would also cause others. It would 100% make the players of soldier PC's even more code driven. I have played with them, I know what they are like. Every single one? Nope. But as a whole they are. And sneaks are always the same.

Why?

No. Consequences.

[Riev]

Regardless of all that..


I don't think NPC soldiers are too buff. I think they're sufficiently codedly capable, while not be one-man murder machines.
Half-giants, from what I understood, are good for one thing. Whatever ONE THING you tell them to do. Patrol and arrest anyone with dirty hair. Stand here and look menacing. Only let people wearing a Militia cloak or Templar Robes through.

They're not supposed to be good at discerning minutia and nuance. When a bunch are stacked up in one area, as NPCs, the assumption is those half a dozen half giants are representative of the virtual population as well. So why are there a hundred half-giants in that one area?

And lets not kid ourselves. They "gang up" on the Slavers Way/Hathor's because they chase people who are running to the lawlessness of the Labyrinth, and the game's code doesn't return them to their previous posts. Any half-giant picked up on the way comes along and gets dumped there. Rarely, very rarely, are they placed there on purpose (and if they are, I sincerely hop someone on staff is noticing and asking why a bunch of resources are being put into a place that historically hasn't needed it)

[Dar]

Is Celf weakness still a thing? Miscreants rule the world, don't they? Is this still even under dispute?

[Armaddict]

NPC soldiers are not too buff.  Even half-giant soldiers are generally killable, but there is a strong aversion to it because of the nature of crimcode.

The 'soldier has arrived from nearby' is not a good addition, never was, and all this 'virtual world' stuff is entirely one-sided.  Once you start implementing virtual thievery, virtual muggers that pop into existence, virtual half-elves to focus on in the establishments people want to be nicer without a doorman...then I'll start believing you.  All the virtual world emphasis does now is stifle, not tell people to involve it in their roleplay.

Simply put, it removes content from the game.  It doesn't add it.  People don't 'remember the virtual world', they just avoid doing things.

[Riev]

NPC soldiers are not too buff.  Even half-giant soldiers are generally killable, but there is a strong aversion to it because of the nature of crimcode.

The 'soldier has arrived from nearby' is not a good addition, never was, and all this 'virtual world' stuff is entirely one-sided.  Once you start implementing virtual thievery, virtual muggers that pop into existence, virtual half-elves to focus on in the establishments people want to be nicer without a doorman...then I'll start believing you.  All the virtual world emphasis does now is stifle, not tell people to involve it in their roleplay.

Simply put, it removes content from the game.  It doesn't add it.  People don't 'remember the virtual world', they just avoid doing things.

For example, to combat the 'half giant NPC posted at the entrance to the 'rinth' issue, one could presumably get a few enterprising 'rinthers together to chase/kill off this NPC. However, the ability to call virtual soldiers into the active domain is entirely too stifling. PC thieves, regardless of affiliation, do not have the ability to call in gangs on good terms without 3 weeks of back and forth with staff, and 2 reboots that have since moved that NPC soldier in the first place.

The NPC, itself, isn't difficult to kill. Hell, if I can SEE other soldiers in the area that might come to their aid, I might avoid it or bring backup. The issue is when either 3+ NPCs filter into the same place from chasing bad thieves, or the scripting that pulls soldiers from the virtual surroundings that we, as PCs, cannot account for.

[kahuna]

NPC soldiers are not too buff.  Even half-giant soldiers are generally killable, but there is a strong aversion to it because of the nature of crimcode.

The 'soldier has arrived from nearby' is not a good addition, never was, and all this 'virtual world' stuff is entirely one-sided.  Once you start implementing virtual thievery, virtual muggers that pop into existence, virtual half-elves to focus on in the establishments people want to be nicer without a doorman...then I'll start believing you.  All the virtual world emphasis does now is stifle, not tell people to involve it in their roleplay.

Simply put, it removes content from the game.  It doesn't add it.  People don't 'remember the virtual world', they just avoid doing things.

For example, to combat the 'half giant NPC posted at the entrance to the 'rinth' issue, one could presumably get a few enterprising 'rinthers together to chase/kill off this NPC. However, the ability to call virtual soldiers into the active domain is entirely too stifling. PC thieves, regardless of affiliation, do not have the ability to call in gangs on good terms without 3 weeks of back and forth with staff, and 2 reboots that have since moved that NPC soldier in the first place.

The NPC, itself, isn't difficult to kill. Hell, if I can SEE other soldiers in the area that might come to their aid, I might avoid it or bring backup. The issue is when either 3+ NPCs filter into the same place from chasing bad thieves, or the scripting that pulls soldiers from the virtual surroundings that we, as PCs, cannot account for.

The problem discussed in this thread is that there were typically about 8 HG NPCs chilling at the entrance. Good luck killing that.

[Riev]

NPC soldiers are not too buff.  Even half-giant soldiers are generally killable, but there is a strong aversion to it because of the nature of crimcode.

The 'soldier has arrived from nearby' is not a good addition, never was, and all this 'virtual world' stuff is entirely one-sided.  Once you start implementing virtual thievery, virtual muggers that pop into existence, virtual half-elves to focus on in the establishments people want to be nicer without a doorman...then I'll start believing you.  All the virtual world emphasis does now is stifle, not tell people to involve it in their roleplay.

Simply put, it removes content from the game.  It doesn't add it.  People don't 'remember the virtual world', they just avoid doing things.

For example, to combat the 'half giant NPC posted at the entrance to the 'rinth' issue, one could presumably get a few enterprising 'rinthers together to chase/kill off this NPC. However, the ability to call virtual soldiers into the active domain is entirely too stifling. PC thieves, regardless of affiliation, do not have the ability to call in gangs on good terms without 3 weeks of back and forth with staff, and 2 reboots that have since moved that NPC soldier in the first place.

The NPC, itself, isn't difficult to kill. Hell, if I can SEE other soldiers in the area that might come to their aid, I might avoid it or bring backup. The issue is when either 3+ NPCs filter into the same place from chasing bad thieves, or the scripting that pulls soldiers from the virtual surroundings that we, as PCs, cannot account for.

The problem discussed in this thread is that there were typically about 8 HG NPCs chilling at the entrance. Good luck killing that.

I'm not going to go back and check, but I think 8 NPCs was a misrepresentation of how many are there.
That said, more than 3 is bullshit in the first place. Codedly, we're just talking about the fact that HG soldiers don't engage in auto-patrol behavior, so once they reach the end of their jurisdiction, they stay in that one room until a Templar comes or the game reboots.

I'm talking about the problem of when its only one or two that "dared come close to the 'rinth without permission".

[gotdamnmiracle]

I seriously don't understand the logic around "if you don't like it just kill them". Does anyone think that that's appropriate when it is so obviously an issue with the patrol code.

[RogueGunslinger]

If anything I feel like it's too easy to avoid capture. Just spam-run and you're fine. If you don't think you can make it, ready up a nosave arrest command and they'll subdue you and take you to jail.

Don't want to die? Don't resist arrest if you can't outrun a bunch of half-giants.

[Brokkr]

I seriously don't understand the logic around "if you don't like it just kill them". Does anyone think that that's appropriate when it is so obviously an issue with the patrol code.

Patrol code?  If you mean how some soldiers move around on set routes...none of those soldiers are half-giants, as far as I am aware.

[kahuna]

If anything I feel like it's too easy to avoid capture. Just spam-run and you're fine. If you don't think you can make it, ready up a nosave arrest command and they'll subdue you and take you to jail.

Don't want to die? Don't resist arrest if you can't outrun a bunch of half-giants.

This is outright false. The crimcode has been notoriously difficult to get around. Having every single NPC soldier come after you just because you have the wanted flag is unrealistic and does a disservice to the games criminal elements. There's a reason criminal PCs are rarely if ever played consistently.

[RogueGunslinger]

The reason they aren't played consistently is because other players scape-goat, witch-hunt, and generally harassing them. Not because of the crimcode. Crimcode is harsh, but navigable. And there's plenty of ways to never get crim-flagged while you do nefarious things. Like working at night. Not having witnesses. Knowing escape routes if you fail. Making sure you're competent before you try the dangerous shit. There's so many options.

[Riev]

I seriously don't understand the logic around "if you don't like it just kill them". Does anyone think that that's appropriate when it is so obviously an issue with the patrol code.

Patrol code?  If you mean how some soldiers move around on set routes...none of those soldiers are half-giants, as far as I am aware.

Correct, which is what I mentioned earlier. The buildup of HG soldiers on Hathor's Way is because there is a zone break and they stop chasing. Unfortunately, HG's are not scripted in any way, and do not have any predetermined routes or locations they need to be at, so they stack up. Eventually, you get 3-5 of them in that one room, ready to kill any wanted people fleeing into the 'rinth.

Even that would not be a problem, per se, because you could kill a single HG soldier that wandered off. But soldiers have a script to call in virtual assistance. That makes them too buff.

[betweenford]

It's been said at least once in the thread there were IC reasons for why those particular HG's were all posted on Hathor's Way. Bringing the discussion to patrol code kind of seems moot when they pretty much spawn at the entrance to the rinth due to IC events. Whether or not current events/circumstances still warrant all of those HG's being posted there is something that probably needs more discussion but talking about things like that without skirting recent IC events would be pretty challenging IMO.

To me it seems like most people think all of the HG's posted there is somewhat unreasonable and might not be reflective of current rinth/nak politics, and a holdover from somewhat recent events that needs some updating, but not everyone might be privvy to deeper politicking that still warrants keeping all those HG's there.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I find it frustrating that a complaint that spans years gets shouted down by others simply by saying it's IC. If it was IC then maybe I should have heard about rumors for it in one of the several taverns either south or north of Hathors. If it's IC maybe we could see some retaliation? It's laughable how everytime I've ridden along for a AOD run into the rinth Staff has had rinthers shooting arrows at us and literally shitting on us at one point, yet when several soldiers gum up the main road all the VNPCs just churn on as if this is normal.

I guess so many people have just flagged this as problematic code because, no, there isn't a proper expected response to this and it's easier to just lump it in with other known bugs and try to play around it (to be read don't commit any crimes that week because your escape route is full of soldiers and you should wait for a reboot to escalate plot).