Babies and booze (and spice)

[FamousAmos]

We all now know that drugs and liquor is bad for babies. And yet, when Zalanthian babies are born they are always healthy, on time and without any underdeveloped issues. I've seen it with tribals (PC's that smoke and drink like a sailor) but also nobles.

Are Zalanthian people not that susceptible to developing FAS and insta-addicted babies?

[MeTekillot]

Your unsubtle criticism of pregnancy roleplayers is noted.

I wouldn't be surprised if Zalanthan genetics are resistant to birth defects. And when a child is born with a defect, it may be a coin flip if the mother (or a concerned family member) just smothers the child in infancy. And if they aren't smothered in infancy, it's highly likely that they get murdered for being an outsider/mutant/liability/acceptable target for street gang initiation. Barring all that, you're allowed to app a mutant PC. Enjoy roleplaying Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, I guess.

[Cabooze]

Whenever someone avidly smokes/drinks while pregnant (ingame), I always have to resist the urge to file a player-complaint (simply because it's critique of play), or to wish up asking for a realistic response for whoever is doing this.

It's terribly unrealistic, and while it can be argued that Zalanthan humanoids are far more enduring and all-around hardy than their earthling counterparts, it can also be argued that it should still render the same effects, as alcohol is so powerful it has you stumbling when you're barely past the coded threshold of being 'light-headed'. Spice is far more potent as a controlled substance than anything that currently exists on earth, as its effects can be felt nearly instantly and provide some substantial physiological and mental changes (that's why it's banned in Allanak, btw (the physiological/mental changes, not the effects on childbirth, duh)).

It should be held to a standard that if you are actively drinking/smoking during pregnancy RP, you're then susceptible to staff animating the effects of still-birth, premature child-birth, or more niche things like your baby getting so amped up on Melem Tuek that it kicks so hard, it ruptures your uterus. Thodeliv should near-instantly kill any child you have, because it's practically a perfect mix between Marijuana and Heroin in terms of effect and physical consistency.

[MeTekillot]

Spice is banned because Tektolnes is a lunatic on a power trip, not because it's strong, fwiw.

[Cabooze]

Spice is banned because Tektolnes is a lunatic on a power trip, not because it's strong, fwiw.

Sort of going off topic here.

Yes because of powertrip, but also no. Most of the reason why spice is banned in Allanak, is because it's VERY strong and it has mind-altering effects. How it affects people is heavily downplayed a lot of the time,  out of pursuit of the spice's coded benefits. But let's put this into perspective: Imagine a riot, where the rioters are spiced out of their minds on Aggross, Krelez and whatever else. That's going to be some seriously insane amounts of rampage. All these emaciated individuals that would normally be a mild threat, are now insanely dangerous and swinging things around with the strength of a mul and the speed of an elf.

[FamousAmos]

Your unsubtle criticism of pregnancy roleplayers is noted.

Yeah, that definitely contributes to the subject at hand. This is exactly why some folks don't read the GDB anymore.

[Medena]

Whenever someone avidly smokes/drinks while pregnant (ingame), I always have to resist the urge to file a player-complaint (simply because it's critique of play), or to wish up asking for a realistic response for whoever is doing this.

It's terribly unrealistic, and while it can be argued that Zalanthan humanoids are far more enduring and all-around hardy than their earthling counterparts, it can also be argued that it should still render the same effects, as alcohol is so powerful it has you stumbling when you're barely past the coded threshold of being 'light-headed'. Spice is far more potent as a controlled substance than anything that currently exists on earth, as its effects can be felt nearly instantly and provide some substantial physiological and mental changes (that's why it's banned in Allanak, btw (the physiological/mental changes, not the effects on childbirth, duh)).

What the what?  What would be terribly unrealistic is if Zalanthans knew anything about drinking or smoking being harmful to unborn children.  It wasn't all that long ago, relatively speaking, that the dangers became known in Western civilizations on earth.  For pregnant women to smoke and drink during pregnancy was not all that uncommon as recently as fifty or sixty years ago.  The health hazards of smoking were not realized even for the smokers themselves until the 1950's or 1960's, nevermind for unborn children.  As for alcohol, the term Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was not coined until 1973.

[Cabooze]

What the what?  What would be terribly unrealistic is if Zalanthans knew anything about drinking or smoking being harmful to unborn children.

It can easily be discovered by observational skills and logic.

"Oh, hey, baby Amos was born with part of his skull exposed. I sure did smoke a lot of methelinoc when he was in my gut!"

"Oh, look at all these Sun Runner babies.. None of them can speak proper sentences and they are just stumbling every which way.. That one even has a messed up face! Maybe we should stop drinking so much Sejah when we're pregnant."

The health hazards of smoking were not realized even for the smokers themselves until the 1950's or 1960's, nevermind for unborn children.  As for alcohol, the term Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was not coined until 1973.

Wide-spread use of tobacco for smoking has only been a thing for a few hundred years. Before that, America wasn't discovered, and Tobacco along with it. Drawing parallels between a world where smoking has been a fixture of society for over a thousand years, and one where it's only really been a thing for two to three hundred years, is quite a wide variation.

I should also clarify some on this, I'm fairly sure the Chinese have relatively ancient documentation on the effects of opiate usage, being that they have a history of smoking it for about a thousand years, if not longer.

[Hauwke]

I would argue that don't complaint the players smoking and drinking. But also, seriously, the stuff you put in your nose just now is essentially meth on meth. Your baby should come out fucked.

[Cabooze]

I would argue that don't complaint the players smoking and drinking. But also, seriously, the stuff you put in your nose just now is essentially meth on meth. Your baby should come out fucked.

Oh, I haven't complainted about it. I'm only saying that I resist the urge to. How others decide to RP is up to them, it just comes down to the matter of realism in my eyes. If they don't want to play realism, that's fine, I suppose. It just destroys some of my immersion when a 5-6 month-equivalent pregnant woman sits down next to you, guzzles down a few bottles and then smokes a joint of the game-equivalent of heroin.... Or talks about how that's what they are doing regularly. Yeah. Idk.

I'm still doubling down on my stance that staff should provide animation/response to some individuals doing these things, and perhaps place it somewhere in the documentation/ruleset that you're opening yourself up to staff attention if you're RPing pregnancy, but then also not roleplaying everything else that comes with being pregnant. Like being a warrior-babybrewer, taking a good stabbing to the gut, and your child being A-Okay. Or continuing avid use of things that are downright toxic for the underdeveloped.

[BadSkeelz]

Are Zalanthian people not that susceptible to developing FAS and insta-addicted babies?

I believe they are, and this explains why so many PCs are so stupid.

[valeria]

I disagree with the premise that Zalanthan babies are always born health and on time.  I've seen plenty of people RP difficult pregnancies or give their children birth defects or minor mutations.  I have also literally never seen a heavily pregnant character get stabbed in the gut and then walk around like everything is cool.  But if someone doesn't want to RP having a miscarriage I'm not going to shake my finger at them.  Most of us play games to escape real life problems.  It's not like taking five arrows and walking away is super realistic either.

I also think some people in this thread don't have a very well-informed idea of the realistic effects of substance use on fetuses, or how severe the majority of people are affected by some of the resulting diseases.  My adopted sister is on the fetal alcohol spectrum and it's not like anyone could tell just looking at her.  I also get to read a lot of cases involving the termination of parental rights, and in the vast majority of cases where a kid is born to a parent abusing drugs or alcohol, the baby is either born premature and low weight, or it's fine physically speaking.  There is a correlation between drug and alcohol use and learning disabilities later on, but since your average Zalanthan is not going to be going to school, there are probably just more people who are developmentally delayed, but without people having much to compare those delays to.  I think there would just be a lot more miscarriages and stillbirths because of babies being born premature.  But the same would be true because of low nutrition and zero prenatal care.

Basically, my opinion is go ahead and RP your pregnancies however you want, but I think it's ridiculous to put in a player complaint because some pregnant character has a drink at the bar or smokes a joint.

[Cabooze]

Basically, my opinion is go ahead and RP your pregnancies however you want, but I think it's ridiculous to put in a player complaint because some pregnant character has a drink at the bar or smokes a joint.

I think you're just skimming and not actually reading what's said, but that's fine, being uninformed seems to be something that is taken into the whole as a consensus just as much as fully informed discussion is. I'm only trying to suggest an ounce of realism for the sake of roleplay, and have said a couple times now that I've not actually complainted anyone for questionable roleplay standards. It's actually getting frustrating that I have to reiterate this every other post, that no complaints have been submitted in regards to this (from me, at least).

Using drugs that are significantly upgraded versions of their real-world counterparts, you should also expect to have drastic differences in how "Ok" a child is when exposed to a wide variety of these substances, from some designed to calm you, or feel in tune with the land, to others that boost your physical abilities far beyond what your musculature or skeletal structure should be able to support.

I also think it's important to note, that each spice has an overdose threshold. So, let's scale the amount of spice consumed to be comparable to an infant, it really wouldn't take all that much to kill a small child, being that they are exposed to literal super-drugs.

[MeTekillot]

Basically, my opinion is go ahead and RP your pregnancies however you want, but I think it's ridiculous to put in a player complaint because some pregnant character has a drink at the bar or smokes a joint.

I think you're just skimming and not actually reading what's said, but that's fine, being uninformed seems to be something that is taken into the whole as a consensus just as much as fully informed discussion is.

Not necessary.

[Khorm]

it seems like zalanthan babies are protected by a magick womb, rendering them immune to anything beyond their mother dying.

i'm cool with that. it doesn't seem super interesting to roleplay fas or whatever drug-induced mul rage would cause the baby to punch its way out.

pregnancy is one of the few things where i'm completely willing to suspend all disbelief and make pretend everything is perfect. to do otherwise leads to situations where you might flip a coin to see if your kid survives infancy, or whether or not the mother even survives childbirth. it doesn't seem like a critical aspect of the game.

[Alesan]

Do we really have enough free time to argue about whether pregnancy roleplayers are appropriately ruining their children? Why is this even a necessary discussion? Maybe if roleplaying pregnancy were a bigger part of the game, which I don't really think it is, then maybe I could understand how it would matter whether or not Pregnant Amosine's baby is going to come out with half a head because its mother did too much spice.

I'm just saying maybe there's other, more pressing matters to discuss than a very niche part of roleplaying in Armageddon.

If some woman's baby comes out malformed, they're most likely going to blame witchcraft, not spice or booze.

[Malken]

All my babehs are handsome and on time.

[7dwarves]

What about fighting, all the kicks, slashes at the stomach area? Then stress, hunger, hard work? Sound like no one should have a healthy offspring in this world. Besides, who said spice is like meth, could be like its Dune counterpart and give your baby super powers.

It sounds like nitpicking at best and borderline harassment of players who choose to RP pregnancy and not be cloistered. Yeah, and someone mentioned Sun Runners, why not file a complaint about every Sun Runner PC who was app'd healthy?

Relax, and let people play away from the RL shit.

[Krath]

What about fighting, all the kicks, slashes at the stomach area? Then stress, hunger, hard work? Sound like no one should have a healthy offspring in this world. Besides, who said spice is like meth, could be like its Dune counterpart and give your baby super powers.

It sounds like nitpicking at best and borderline harassment of players who choose to RP pregnancy and not be cloistered. Yeah, and someone mentioned Sun Runners, why not file a complaint about every Sun Runner PC who was app'd healthy?

Relax, and let people play away from the RL shit.

I am in this camp.

To me Armageddon is a fantasy game. There are dragons...IMHO the only thing that should be interpreted exactly how it is IRL is permadeath.

However, If you want to Roleplay out that kind of pregnancy Cabooze, by all means do it. I would just be wary of trying to tell people how to RP their characters on an OOC level.
Maybe Valeria's PC is immune to the effects of FAS like syndromes. You will never know unless you ask IC.

[Refugee]

Like rape, dead babies in your belly is a deeply disturbing thing IRL to many women and not something most of us would find interesting or fun to RP.  If you do, fine, no problem.  But this isn't something to be taken lightly.

I'm 60 years old, and it's pretty astonishing how the attitudes about drinking and smoking while pregnant have changed from when I was a kid, especially smoking.  It's also astonishing to think about how we couldn't have known these things!  But we didn't.  There's no telling what the common people of Zalanthas might believe is good or bad.  They don't have TV or the internet or even books to spread information.  Women would probably get their beliefs from family members or friends.

I wouldn't find it unbelievable to find someone who thinks you need to get stung by a scorpion for a good strong baby, because their Aunt Amosa was and her daughter grew up to be a hero of His Arm.  Or you should avoid all scrab meat because that's what made Aunt Malika lose her second baby.

[number13]

http://old.armageddon.org/general/mutant.html

[tiny rainbow]

http://old.armageddon.org/general/mutant.html

Mutations abound on the surface of Zalanthas, and many have gone so far as to become species in and of their own right, such as the deadly psionic gaj, the Thryzn who assisted in freeing the north, the animate cacti known as Thornwalkers, and the fierce insectoid kryl.

KRYL ARE PEOPLE TOO

What are they mutations of, what are the gaj mutations of? Creepy weird secrets, inteeeeresting

[Dar]

If you want to roleplay that aspect out, please feel free to. If you dont, then dont. That's my personal opinion on the issue.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I feel like if a player is doing something like this and it bothers you, you can always just handle it in game.

Like, "Hey! Why are you smoking that spice and drinking those spirits! You are going to hurt your baby!"

Chances are, they will tell you to get bent (Allanak style) Or maybe they are going to ask what the krath you are talking about. Be ready to explain why your character thinks that spice is gonna hurt your baby, when probably more than half the known world says spice is good for you. I mean, it makes me smarter, faster and stronger! How could it be bad?

[Dar]

Exactly. Everyone knows that stillborn children happen due to proximity to gemmers. You're actually telling us that booze is bad for my kid? Vennant, get that dipshit out of here, he's chasing away your customers.