How to create indie RP/plots

[oggotale]

A lot of the advice I've come across seems specific to plot creation using the existing IG frameworks (being a good noble, being a good Sarge, etc).

Is there anything out there about creating plots as an independent? How do you do it? How /would/ you do it?

Do post any specific ways you've done this in the past (if you'd like), or even general guidelines. Or just link me to some resources concerning this that I might have missed, it seems like a topic that was probably discussed in the past but I cant dig up the deets.

I know there's the bit in Mansas guide but it seems to focus a lot on Staff interaction and Staff support, I'm more interested in the kind of things players themselves find fun OOCly vis a vis things they do ONLY because theyre ICly getting paid for it or get some other IC benefit (often, observing the latter may not be a good proxy for the former).

Or are all indie plots boring bs and players only really appreciate the big meaty plots trickling down from upstairs?

[Cerelum]

Take all this with a grain of salt, but this is my viewpoint.

1. Spend your coins.  If you have any type of craft, chances are you can sell them for coins to someone.  What many people seem to do is sell lots of items to shops but never really try to do it with players.  So they end up after time with a large bankroll and nothing to spend it on.  Or people make the mistake of spending every single coin on their character and not others.

If you want to have plots and things happen, with or without staff involvement, you need to have more than yourself involved in it.  Hire the Byn to escort you from A to B.  Hire a guide to bring you too and from a said place.

Don't hold onto your coins like Nenyuk gives you an incentive once you hit ten large or whatever, spend it, sometimes I spend my coin faster than it comes in.

2. Make friends with people who don't really matter to your goal.  Say you're an indy hunter, that tressy tressy bar sitting aide may never buy your mekillot skins from you, but may know who is looking for them, or drop your name in a conversation with someone.

This might lead to you and your group being invited to do things.

3. Look for ways to get involved beyond a buy sell relationship.

What I mean is if you're a crafter but you can't skin, maybe try to work for someone else, not a merchant house, but a player who seems to have what you need/want to get yourself off the ground.

3a. Don't be super secure with how you play.  If you don't trust anyone in the game, ever and you never tell anyone where you live, never tell anyone a vulnerable aspect about yourself.  You will probably never be screwed over, but you'll not be involved with much either.

I've noticed this a lot, everyone wants to be their own man/dwarf/elf whatever, doesn't want to work for anyone, doesn't want to swallow their pride and deal with being an employee or a helper to someone else.  While I think everyone thinks, what's in this for me, the most fun I've had has been when I wriggled my way into personal relationships and started working for someone, then growing beyond them, or having someone work for me.

Other players are less inclined to interact with you when you treat them like an NPC.  Sell hide Cerelum, Cerelum says, "I already have too many of those." doesn't come outta a players mouth.

I've bought and sold stuff that were totally un-needed by me or others simply by having a good working relationship with them.

That's my two cents.

[oggotale]

Take all this with a grain of salt, but this is my viewpoint.

One of the reasons I speculate that I seem to get more helpful opinions (albeit shorter) on discord than here is because people don't like to take this risk, thanks mate!

[X-D]

I try and kill people. Most the time it is pretty half-assed mostly to give others something to do.

[only_plays_tribals]

Hate something. Rally others to hate it with you.

Spill secrets. Keeping everything to yourself is playing with yourself. Don't masterbate. Circle jerk.

[SomeElf]

How I create interactions with people is by doing the following:
1) Find excuses to talk to as wide a variety of people as possible. This might mean being fearful of a magicker and expressing that fear quite visibly such as with furtive glances, shaking hands, even saying hello when you think the magicker is looking in your direction.

2) Find things for people to do. If you see a 'rinther, ask them to buy spice. Or ask them what the latest word is in the Labyrinth. Ask them to tell you who other criminals are. Knowing who the local criminals are can help you buy stuff on the cheap. We all value rumors. It's why we always type "look board rumor" and then read them. Asking other people what rumors are on boards you can't see gives you that information. Don't know everything there is to know. Instead of risking life and limb, offer to buy food from new hunters on the cheap.

3) Find out what other people are doing. Find ways that helping them benefits your and then help them. But always demand a price or benefit to your character that they are willing to part with or provide.

4) To create plots, give yourself goals and try to involve the widest range of people possible. Do as little yourself as possible, potentially only giving yourself the goal of raising funds to pay everyone else (which can be done by asking for favors for other people or via coded means).

5) Give yourself one meaningful flaw that will be counterproductive to your efforts. And then do your absolute best to hide that flaw while still roleplaying it appropriately.

6) Remain true to your character. Don't break character just to involve others or create plots. If your character is terrified of the desert, remain terrified of the desert. Only ever enter it if you absolutely have to. But also be willing to make minor tweaks to your character as necessary. But only if it's truly important.

7) Don't try to generate drama plots. They'll happen naturally without any effort from you. They're also the lowest of low quality plots.

Communicate with staff as regularly as they want you to. Once you start doing things that involve other players, shoot them a quick report and ask them how often they would like you to update them in the future.

None of the above requires staff support. By increasing the amount of interactions you have, you'll start getting involved in other people's stories. As you start setting goals for yourself, you'll naturally start to generate plots that other people will enjoy helping you with. The more people enjoy working with you, the more they will interact with you and the more plots will naturally generate.

Also none of the above rules should be followed all the time! Even the ones that say "always". You follow every rule above to the letter, you'll burn out and get bored. Pick and choose which ones you follow at any given time.

One final note that's a big one: The more fun you generate for other players without staff support, the more likely staff will be to provide assistance for plots that do need their help.

[Eyeball]

I don't know. This has always been a difficult question for me.

Money just doesn't motivate most characters very much, contrary to what you might expect ICly.

The exception is the Byn, which more or less exists to accept money in exchange for doing things. If you ask for anything off the beaten path though, it can take a long time for them to do it (if ever).  And a huge amount of coin. Which means spending 98% of your time crafting away, and 2% having fun.

Some people are great at socializing both players and staff and making them enthusiastic about a goal. Some (like me) are not. I've created objectives and the like, only to find everyone to be utterly unenthusiastic, or even hostile in a few cases, to the idea of doing the associated in-game "work", for lack of a better term.

Maybe an answer is to respond to players looking for co-participants (e.g. family members). Having a few characters on the same page about something is a huge boost, even if you are limited to four in your family. I guess that's moving away from being true indie though. Also, the average half-life of characters isn't very long. Your family members are inevitably going to die off. Leaving you alone, if you survive the longest, and then what do you do.

[Riev]

Similar to a section in Mansa's New Player guide... find out what someone's goals are, and try and make your character work for those goals.

Or, have your own goals that require other people. Maybe it needs a custom craft, maybe you need a bunch of blocky stone delivered to build a hut in the middle of nowhere, or maybe your PC just wants to not 'have to work another day in their lives'. All of those would require assistance from other people. Find them. Talk to them.

Similarly, I feel that coins aren't as big a motivator among PCs. Nobody is going to do something 'for free', but find something you can do/provide outside of coins that someone would work for. Access to an apartment? Cheap food? Maybe your favorite crafter is in need of new tools... go buy some 300 coin tools from Salarr and gift those, rather than just 300 coins. Be creative in how you pay people. Additionally, most players are looking for 'something to do' rather than 'coin to spend'. Come up with something for them to work on. Crafter making you a 'generic' sword? Tell them the edge looks off, have them sharpen it. Say the hilt is all wrong and doesn't fit your fingers.

In short, people want to do things with indies just as much as clanned people, but clans tend to get more staff support. As an indie, find out what can be done that doesn't REQUIRE staff intervention, but would just be ENHANCED by it. Then your plots can happen/continue regardless of whether someone logged on or not.

[Armaddict]

I try and kill people. Most the time it is pretty half-assed mostly to give others something to do.

Antagonist roles are so necessary to the game it's ridiculous.  I was going to say in mine, 'Don't be afraid to be the antagonist', but this sums it up nicely.

Don't play it safe.  Find people's plans, find benefit in them, or in messing them up, then go accordingly.  Make enemies.  Find enemies of your enemies to be temp friendsies.  Kill people.  Don't draw out conflict; it will become stale and meaningless.  Make it short, sweet, intense, and increase the excitement of you and your enemies with the intensity of danger in places where they were meant to feel safe.

[oggotale]

Antagonist roles are so necessary to the game it's ridiculous.  I was going to say in mine, 'Don't be afraid to be the antagonist', but this sums it up nicely.

Don't play it safe.  Find people's plans, find benefit in them, or in messing them up, then go accordingly.  Make enemies.  Find enemies of your enemies to be temp friendsies.  Kill people.  Don't draw out conflict; it will become stale and meaningless.  Make it short, sweet, intense, and increase the excitement of you and your enemies with the intensity of danger in places where they were meant to feel safe.

Tbh the temptation of wanting to have my character survive is too strong for me to consider antagonist roles anytime soon. Maybe after the novelty of combat wears off.

[Nile]

Antagonist roles are so necessary to the game it's ridiculous.  I was going to say in mine, 'Don't be afraid to be the antagonist', but this sums it up nicely.

Don't play it safe.  Find people's plans, find benefit in them, or in messing them up, then go accordingly.  Make enemies.  Find enemies of your enemies to be temp friendsies.  Kill people.  Don't draw out conflict; it will become stale and meaningless.  Make it short, sweet, intense, and increase the excitement of you and your enemies with the intensity of danger in places where they were meant to feel safe.

Tbh the temptation of wanting to have my character survive is too strong for me to consider antagonist roles anytime soon. Maybe after the novelty of combat wears off.

Fair call. But sometimes you just gotta pull that trigger

[tapas]

I try and kill people. Most the time it is pretty half-assed mostly to give others something to do.

Antagonist roles are so necessary to the game it's ridiculous.  I was going to say in mine, 'Don't be afraid to be the antagonist', but this sums it up nicely.

Don't play it safe.  Find people's plans, find benefit in them, or in messing them up, then go accordingly.  Make enemies.  Find enemies of your enemies to be temp friendsies.  Kill people.  Don't draw out conflict; it will become stale and meaningless.  Make it short, sweet, intense, and increase the excitement of you and your enemies with the intensity of danger in places where they were meant to feel safe.

Antagonist is a literary term that doesn't really have a place in the sandbox environment of Armageddon. I mean other than "grrr I don't like gickers me smash" sort of way.

Other than that it's just bad advice. You should be building plots with conflict to engage other players. If someone dies in the process, that's fine too. But griefing players just to build your kda is a great way to get players to disengage and only play with their ooc friends.

[John]

I get pretty tired about hearing how PK causes people to leave the game. Templars are downright pussy cats and I cant remember the last time I had an unreasonable raider.

Play what you enjoy. Definitely be the bad guy who decides to be an antagonist and use PK as a tool to get what they want. One of the most enjoyable deaths I had was from one such player. You cannot control other people, so dont bother. Make the game fun for you and like minded people will play around you.

[Cerelum]

I get pretty tired about hearing how PK causes people to leave the game. Templars are downright pussy cats and I cant remember the last time I had an unreasonable raider.

Play what you enjoy. Definitely be the bad guy who decides to be an antagonist and use PK as a tool to get what they want. One of the most enjoyable deaths I had was from one such player. You cannot control other people, so dont bother. Make the game fun for you and like minded people will play around you.

I agree Templar's need to be harder on folks and create fear when they walk in the room.  Just remember to vote for Lord Templar Cerelum next Templar role call.

But it doesn't always have to end in death of players to be scary.  Also I think it's hard to play an antagonist in game, because you kill too many folks and people will label you a griefer, I think I've killed a handful of folks in however many years I've played and I've had some scary roles before that people were afraid of because there is more to being scary than DINGing folks to death.

[tapas]

I get pretty tired about hearing how PK causes people to leave the game. Templars are downright pussy cats and I cant remember the last time I had an unreasonable raider.

God I wish.

Also. Antagonist. It's seriously becoming a pet peeve.

[oggotale]

I get pretty tired about hearing how PK causes people to leave the game. Templars are downright pussy cats and I cant remember the last time I had an unreasonable raider.

God I wish.

Also. Antagonist. It's seriously becoming a pet peeve.

Antagonists are your pet peeve?
Also, I can't remember the last time I met someone/anyone honestly opportunistic/selfish (beyond just the flavor of acting tough).

[tapas]

I get pretty tired about hearing how PK causes people to leave the game. Templars are downright pussy cats and I cant remember the last time I had an unreasonable raider.

God I wish.

Also. Antagonist. It's seriously becoming a pet peeve.

Antagonists are your pet peeve?
Also, I can't remember the last time I met someone/anyone honestly opportunistic/selfish (beyond just the flavor of acting tough).

No. As I was trying to say earlier; I don't like the way players use the term 'antagonist'. I think it's devolved into a silly, nebulous shorthand for 'bad dude with a bow' without much added thought.

[John]

I get pretty tired about hearing how PK causes people to leave the game. Templars are downright pussy cats and I cant remember the last time I had an unreasonable raider.

God I wish.

Also. Antagonist. It's seriously becoming a pet peeve.

Antagonists are your pet peeve?
Also, I can't remember the last time I met someone/anyone honestly opportunistic/selfish (beyond just the flavor of acting tough).

Iremember getting killed by my only friend because I waved myself into unconsciousness. Bastard.

[oggotale]

No. As I was trying to say earlier; I don't like the way players use the term 'antagonist'. I think it's devolved into a silly, nebulous shorthand for 'bad dude with a bow' without much added thought.

I get you now, okay.
Personally I'd still prefer bad dude with a bow to a good dude with a great character given my personal sampling of players. Been a while since I've been fucked over IC, keeps things fresh.

[maxid]

Honestly, the playerbase that I've experienced has been super collaborative and buddy buddy as a rule.

I'm eager to see the next Crimson Wind or real raiding group come up and make the desert dangerous once more.

[Armaddict]

Antagonist is a literary term that doesn't really have a place in the sandbox environment of Armageddon. I mean other than "grrr I don't like gickers me smash" sort of way.

Other than that it's just bad advice. You should be building plots with conflict to engage other players. If someone dies in the process, that's fine too. But griefing players just to build your kda is a great way to get players to disengage and only play with their ooc friends.

I in no way referenced griefing with what you posted.  So apparently there needs to be a breakdown.

First, the literary term of antagonist does indeed apply to the sandbox of Armageddon, but there is context to it; everyone is their own protagonist, and those in conflict with them are antagonists.  When people say 'Don't be afraid to play the antagonist', they are saying exactly what you're looking for; don't be afraid to be the bad guy to someone else.

When I say, 'Armageddon needs more antagonism', that isn't waving a flag that says go out and kill everyone.  It's saying be an effective bad guy to those you come into conflict with.  There is just as much or more gained with short, sweet bouts of intense conflict as there are with long, drawn out ones.

I'm not certain why you'd say that 'Don't feel bad or hesitate to be the bad guy to someone else' is bad advice.  Make enemies.  It's a much richer game when everyone is juggling dangers with goals and maneuvering through risks that keep piling up than them being mostly safe and having to search for risky situations when they feel like it.

[mansa]

Can you link me stuff in my guides that reference staff involvement?  I may want to take ideas here and post there

[path]

Similar to a section in Mansa's New Player guide... find out what someone's goals are, and try and make your character work for those goals.

Or, have your own goals that require other people.

Cool. This. Nailed it. It sounds basic, but want things. Want things desperately. Meet people. Find out what they want. Work together.

Hate things. Hate things desperately. Find other people who also hate things, and work together to crush those things that you hate.

The number of plots that can come out of this ridiculously simple recipe are too endless to begin outlining here. They are as varied as our fingerprints and as nuanced as the characters we're able to create.



(I added italics for the important parts. IMO plots just really aren't as plotsy if you're running them solo.)

[John]

Honestly, the playerbase that I've experienced has been super collaborative and buddy buddy as a rule.

I'm happy to say not everyone has been like this. So to those who are bucking this trend: Thankyou!

I have noticed the buddy-buddy mindset does seem to spring up more commonly in less populated areas of the game. Or maybe I'm just good at attracting ANTAGONISTS and the law of averages says there's just less for me to attract in the less populated areas.

[Miradus]

The buddy-buddy mindset makes sense when it makes sense.

If there's only one other dude who plays in my timeframe in a specific area where I'm playing, and I have a desire for some social game ... then like hell I'm going to kill that guy. I've done that and learned a painful lesson from it. You kill someone off and then end up storing because you're bored to death.

There's people I've been an antagonist towards and I had them in a situation where I could kill them, but I let them go to plot against me. To do that, however, means you've got to have a measure of trust for your other players. Which ... sad to say ... I no longer hand out indiscriminately. I've found that most players, faced with an antagonist, are going to jump to the biggest and surest way of winning the very next chance they get to preserve themselves.

And I am not sure I blame them anymore. I would find it a boring way to play, but I see it now. You give people too much of a chance in this game, you're going to find yourself looking at a mantishead and thinking, "Well that was unfulfilling."

You aren't rewarded in any way for sacrificing your character for the sake of a good story. You are rewarded instead for 'longevity'. No matter how bullshit your methods of maintaining that longevity have been. You won't earn karma for bravely holding that line against the raiders/gith/scrab with a grainy stone and going down in glory while your comrades made it to safety. Instead you earn a wait for approval and the joy of having to go find a new group of people to play with. You might get some kudos, maybe, but those are a small comfort when a few weeks later you're reading on the rumor board about some awesome adventure your old buddies had that you'd have been able to participate in had you not done the right thing and roleplayed out the victim-side of a betrayal, even though you OOC knew better. Or you see some upcoming event posted and think, "Gah, my last character would have been perfect for that. But this one is struggling to just get some new pants."

With all those factors, you're going to see more of the bullshit behavior and less of the narratively-focused players.