Magick Meat is BACK on the table!

Started by Dresan, April 22, 2019, 07:03:06 PM

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April 23, 2019, 05:53:06 PM #25
Quote from: Brokkr on April 23, 2019, 05:43:34 PM
As a commoner, why would you have any assumption whatsoever as to what the witch could do?

Bam.  This.
April 23, 2019, 05:57:39 PM #26
Specifically in the water filling scenario. Definitely still cases why that's important and outside the temple of Vivadu there's a pool of free-to-drink water. Assuming a Viv can fill my skin seems reasonable to me and when they say they can't replying with "why not?" also seems perfectly fine.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.
April 23, 2019, 06:09:36 PM #27 Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 06:11:36 PM by X-D
Well gee, how long have those temple things been around now? And commonly called you know, the water temple and fire temple etc. I'd figure even a commoner should be able to do at least that logic.

Also, Just because you have not had a Viv PC with the water making job since before clans had auto-water does not mean nobody has/does.

Also the docs plainly state,
QuoteThe power that Vivaduans possess over Zalanthas' most precious resource instils no end of jealousy in those that lack it. Rumours often spring up when wells run dry that some magicker has conjured it away - or when a water source goes bad, it is the Vivaduan who is blamed. Disease and ill health are also frequently connected to the Vivaduan's healing arts - such afflictions being thought to follow magickers, or be a direct result of them working their magicks on others. It is a rare individual that will turn down conjured water when dying of thirst, or decline healing when their lifeblood drains out of them - but in both cases, they'd rather not be seen to do it.

So...Um..yeah. That is why a commoner would have that assumption, because the docs state so.
Along with the assumption that the vivadu can make babies blue, walls bleed, plants turn to ash and pretty much anything else you can think of to blame on a mage.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job
April 23, 2019, 06:11:48 PM #28
But as a commoner who has only known of witches via the lore superstitions for their entire life, would you really WANT mage water?

Imagine what that stuff is doing once its inside your body, magic water with no ability to get it out of you? It was so refreshing, perhaps moreso than well water from the temple; but why? Is there a reason this mage's water is that good?

Now that this magic water is in your belly, is it going to curse your blood too? Will it curse your childrens' blood to make them filthy gicks as well?

And perhaps worst of all, what if someone (important or beloved to you) actually saw you drinking that filthy gicker water?!  :-[

(Awesome change, btw, can't wait to goof around with it!)
April 23, 2019, 06:30:54 PM #29
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on April 23, 2019, 06:11:48 PM
But as a commoner who has only known of witches via the lore superstitions for their entire life, would you really WANT mage water?
You're right. Let's remove all reason for non-mages to interact with mages so that we can turn isolating roles into an even greater isolating and boring role.
April 23, 2019, 06:33:29 PM #30
Quote from: X-D on April 23, 2019, 06:09:36 PM

Also, Just because you have not had a Viv PC with the water making job since before clans had auto-water does not mean nobody has/does.

Also the docs plainly state,
QuoteThe power that Vivaduans possess over Zalanthas' most precious resource instils no end of jealousy in those that lack it. Rumours often spring up when wells run dry that some magicker has conjured it away - or when a water source goes bad, it is the Vivaduan who is blamed. Disease and ill health are also frequently connected to the Vivaduan's healing arts - such afflictions being thought to follow magickers, or be a direct result of them working their magicks on others. It is a rare individual that will turn down conjured water when dying of thirst, or decline healing when their lifeblood drains out of them - but in both cases, they'd rather not be seen to do it.


I do understand my experiences aren't everyone's, X-D. I'm pretty sure it's just latent resentment over making my first viv after reading the docs twenty years ago and expecting people to buy water. Since they used to say it was a pretty common way to employ a viv. In my experience, it just never has been because water isn't actually hard to get.
April 23, 2019, 06:47:35 PM #31
Quote from: John on April 23, 2019, 06:30:54 PM
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on April 23, 2019, 06:11:48 PM
But as a commoner who has only known of witches via the lore superstitions for their entire life, would you really WANT mage water?
You're right. Let's remove all reason for non-mages to interact with mages so that we can turn isolating roles into an even greater isolating and boring role.

I'm not saying that PCs can't interact with mages, or even take the chance. If a Viv is going to fill your skin for half the price the temple will, that might outright be worth the risk to desperate common folk that are on an oppressive Allanaki budget.

I'm simply highlighting the stigma that follows around mages/gemmed, as something that is not to be trusted, and is generally feared and hated a great deal. I've seen npc riots start in the game over a gemmed casting something in public as a response to the way elementalists are accepted.

That said, if a specific player wants to play their character(s) as more accepting and tolerant than others, that's for them to do, and I have no problem with it; but from the lore documents and worldview of magick, I'll stand by my above post.
April 23, 2019, 07:43:05 PM #32
You can stand by your statement, but please dont portray it as consistent with the docs. Per the docs commoners can and do go to Vivaduans for water. You dont need to play against the docs to do so.

In addition, per the VNPC population as represented in room descs, people do go to magickers for healing.

As players can we please avoid inventing reasons to make isolating roles EVEN WORSE then the docs and room descs require
April 23, 2019, 08:15:59 PM #33
Quote from: John on April 23, 2019, 07:43:05 PM
You can stand by your statement, but please dont portray it as consistent with the docs. Per the docs commoners can and do go to Vivaduans for water. You dont need to play against the docs to do so.

In addition, per the VNPC population as represented in room descs, people do go to magickers for healing.

As players can we please avoid inventing reasons to make isolating roles EVEN WORSE then the docs and room descs require

I've never known of any such passage in the docs that suggests that going to Vivaduans for healing/water is a normal/accepted thing. The only passage I've been capable of finding that even references it is under the actual Vivaduan help file, which reads as:

QuoteDisease and ill health are also frequently connected to the Vivaduan's healing arts - such afflictions being thought to follow magickers, or be a direct result of them working their magicks on others. It is a rare individual that will turn down conjured water when dying of thirst, or decline healing when their lifeblood drains out of them - but in both cases, they'd rather not be seen to do it.

I'm certainly not inventing this perception in my experiences with the game. If there's a doc you can point me to that suggests otherwise, I would absolutely be open to reconsidering my perception of the matter. I haven't seen such a document though, (and if it does exist, would be thankful to see it).

If the Vivaduan rooms in the Ele quarters suggest otherwise (haven't been there in some time), then it seems like conflicting ideals between the VNPC population and the docs that could use some clarifying on.

Definitely not trying to force any isolation of roles by any means. It's up to individual players to follow those norms or not. I've witnessed that isolation in some of the Ele characters I've played (and gotten a full share of the opposite in some of the others). I'm simply going by the docs as I know them, and my own experience in the game; while very glad to change my perception if shown otherwise.
April 23, 2019, 08:41:48 PM #34
John said:
QuoteIn addition, per the VNPC population as represented in room descs, people do go to magickers for healing.

He didn't say that specific thing was in the docs. He said that specific thing is represented in the room descriptions themselves.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.
April 23, 2019, 09:12:33 PM #35
Which I addressed in the tail end of my post, saying that it seems to be a bit of a conflict between the two that could use some clarification.

He's also referenced it as part of the docs as well.

QuotePer the docs commoners can and do go to Vivaduans for water. You dont need to play against the docs to do so.

Which is not something I've denied. In my own quote of the docs, it's said that:

QuoteIt is a rare individual that will turn down conjured water when dying of thirst, or decline healing when their lifeblood drains out of them - but in both cases, they'd rather not be seen to do it.

And is not my stance that this does not happen. My stance is that it is not seen as a common, or good thing by the populace at large. Perhaps my views are a little too harsh on the stigma of magick and the common person, but in my entire time of playing this game, it's always been represented to me as "magick bad, no magick good", and that the average person will avoid the heck out of it unless left no other option.
April 23, 2019, 10:42:43 PM #36 Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 10:45:30 PM by Cabooze
Quote from: Brokkr on April 23, 2019, 05:43:34 PM
As a commoner, why would you have any assumption whatsoever as to what the witch could do?

As referenced by people that posted after you, not only is it represented in the documentation but it's also represented in room descriptions.

Throughout a character's entire life (including that time they exist virtually before you apply to become them), they would need to be living under a rock to not witness what witches are capable of doing. There is a whole city-quarter dedicated to them. Witches, while rarely done, do indeed come out of their quarter and if instructed by a templar, cast their magicks.

Commoners would see this, they do see this, and often times they react to this in the form of riots. To imply that commoners aren't able to have assumptions of what witches are able to do is just wildly inaccurate.

I'm also not trying to come across as rude, but Brokkr's response presents itself as a "GOTCHA" argument.
April 23, 2019, 11:08:17 PM #37
It was simply meant to spur discussion.

Of course commoners are going to have some assumptions.  It is likely a proportion of them are no where near the truth of what a mage could actually do, while others may contain elements of truth.  Unlikely that the commoner themselves could distinguish between those that are false and true?

And yet, somehow, I doubt many players are guild sniffing with "spells" that don't exist.
April 24, 2019, 04:19:38 AM #38 Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 04:21:49 AM by Eyeball
I've always considered Vivaduans to be a special case among the elementalists. Commoners can get by without the others, but when a baby gets sick, or a hunter gets poisoned without a cure, or Amos falls over, mortally injured, among friends who can drag him somewhere, the Vivaduan temple is there as a last resort, and while people may not feel good about it, they'll go there.

People talk and whisper to each other. Word would spread of the positive things Vivs can do. That's not to say people wouldn't still be suspicious or that Vivs never have a dark nature, but they'd tend to know there is healing there. Experienced soldiers especially would know.
April 24, 2019, 09:49:51 AM #39
What Brokkr said. Too much meta. Get good.
April 24, 2019, 05:05:13 PM #40
I have always thought that is why the vivaduan temple is located conveniently near the plaza. It allows commoners to visit and use their services. There are a number of NPCs in the plaza that seem to be there for healing. They are described as sick, and don't wear a gem.
April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM #41
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?
April 24, 2019, 09:47:31 PM #42
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?

Reference from 2018, may need some adjusting:


1 Karma:

2 Karma:3 Karma:
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one
April 24, 2019, 10:57:05 PM #43 Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 11:00:05 PM by Dresan
Ookay. Seems you don't think staff should.  ::)
April 24, 2019, 11:02:50 PM #44
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?

Another karma three subclass coming?  I have no idea what you are talking about.
April 24, 2019, 11:09:10 PM #45
Quote from: Brokkr on April 24, 2019, 11:02:50 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?

Another karma three subclass coming?  I have no idea what you are talking about.

I was wondering when I read this, but figured I'd missed some announcement, I was hoping that shadow or lightning magick was going to come back into the game as a non sorcerer.

Think that's ever gonna be in the books?
April 24, 2019, 11:10:47 PM #46
Quote from: Brokkr on April 24, 2019, 11:02:50 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?

Another karma three subclass coming?  I have no idea what you are talking about.

I guess i read the below from Naavathan a while back and misinterpreted.

-Addition of a new 3 karma magick subguild, more information to come soon
April 24, 2019, 11:12:57 PM #47
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 11:10:47 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 24, 2019, 11:02:50 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?

Another karma three subclass coming?  I have no idea what you are talking about.

I guess i read the below from Naavathan a while back and misinterpreted.

-Addition of a new 3 karma magick subguild, more information to come soon

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Nilazi
April 24, 2019, 11:19:02 PM #48 Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 11:33:25 PM by Dresan
Quote from: Cabooze on April 24, 2019, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 11:10:47 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 24, 2019, 11:02:50 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 24, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
With the new found power of the karma 2 sub-classes and another karma three subclass coming, will any of the current karma 3 aspects be re-assessed to see if they should be moved down to two karma?

Another karma three subclass coming?  I have no idea what you are talking about.

I guess i read the below from Naavathan a while back and misinterpreted.

-Addition of a new 3 karma magick subguild, more information to come soon

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Nilazi

Wow I totally missed this, had no idea they were added back in the game. I was hoping it would be Nilaz. Nice.
April 24, 2019, 11:43:35 PM #49
I also had no idea that Void elementalists were in the game again.

Why aren't they linked in the other elementalists helpfile?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist
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