Bitching about the economy updates/questions thread: Armor edition

[Jihelu]

We need somewhere to complain or put suggestions forth about the economy of armor. So here it is. We'll talk about armor first in this one.

I'll start:

Obsidian armor should be worth more in the north and wood in the south. Currently it's alright, atleast wood in the south is alright, but if I recall obsidian armor up north kinda sucks. (Don't quote me)

[mansa]

Source -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54533.0.html

Currently, we're working on the armor database.

- The selling/buying costs may change a little (or a lot)
- Items that were not previously craftable, will become so.
- Armor weight may go up or down, depending on item.

I have a question regarding Armor weight.   Will there be race specific armor weights?   
Primarily will weaker races get a slightly 'lighter' version of some armours? 
And will some heavier races get some slightly 'heavier' version of the same armours?


I was thinking perhaps races could be adjusted by:
elves - 0.85
dwarves - 1.2
muls - 1.15
half-giants - I think they are already okay.

[Jihelu]

I like Mansa's suggestion

[Lizzie]

New values + certain locations = hazardous?

[Cind]

My pureblood human with above average wisdom and lower-end <advanced> leatherworking cannot turn a profit by working leather in Red Storm. You know, the leatherworking mechanic that pairs with the clothworking mechanic, where a person in Storm is supposed to be able to make a living by working the raw goods one shop sells, and turning them in to the warehouse. I think people know its broken, because I never see people turn in boots and gloves to the warehouse that accepts clothes and leather goods. With legacy merchants, it might have been a way to level up leatherworking so that it branches armormaking, which right now is one of the top ways to make money in the game. But its not actually being used as intended.


With boot and glove prices being as they are in the Storm shops, and the prices of the raw leather not being able to be realistically lowered that much, I think it would be fine if it just made a little money, as compared to clothworking that makes quite a bit if you put some work into it. Most of my humans that have tried, however, can't make net gain at the end of the day at advanced leatherworking. I know its not armor, but its probably related on the skill trees for a class or two.

[Inks]

I like mansa's suggestion.

[only_plays_tribals]

I kind of hope the value-to-weight-to-quality balance feels more realistic.

That is to say.. something like this..

High weight + Good quality = moderate cost
High weight + Average quality = low cost
Average weight + Good quality = high cost
Average weight + Average quality = moderate cost
Low weight + Good quality = Highest cost
Low weight + Average quality = High cost

Weight = obviously how much it weighs
Quality = Protection/bonuses to things like camo or archery bracers

[th3kaiser]

I think I'd prefer for the items not to have their price based on the stats and have it solely on the material and difficulty of producing the item. Using your graph, horror shell gear is cheaper than Kuraci leather. Which is y'know, sandcloth and leather.

[Shabago]

We need somewhere to complain or put suggestions forth about the economy of armor. So here it is. We'll talk about armor first in this one.

I'll start:

Obsidian armor should be worth more in the north and wood in the south. Currently it's alright, atleast wood in the south is alright, but if I recall obsidian armor up north kinda sucks. (Don't quote me)

This happens via taxes. Tax rates /may/ be something we look at at the end of all the economy upgrades and updates. As is stands now, however, yes - you'll get more or less for certain goods by running trade routes X to Y location.

[Shabago]

Source -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54533.0.html

Currently, we're working on the armor database.

- The selling/buying costs may change a little (or a lot)
- Items that were not previously craftable, will become so.
- Armor weight may go up or down, depending on item.

I have a question regarding Armor weight.   Will there be race specific armor weights?   
Primarily will weaker races get a slightly 'lighter' version of some armours? 
And will some heavier races get some slightly 'heavier' version of the same armours?


I was thinking perhaps races could be adjusted by:
elves - 0.85
dwarves - 1.2
muls - 1.15
half-giants - I think they are already okay.

Not currently. Human/elf/dwarf will be drawing from the same pool and having items sized if/as needed.

HG gear can already be found IG - with potentially more to come.

[Shabago]

New values + certain locations = hazardous?

Issues such as these are indeed being considered. At this moment, none of such items have been touched in such a way to cause a hazard.

[Shabago]

My pureblood human with above average wisdom and lower-end <advanced> leatherworking cannot turn a profit by working leather in Red Storm. You know, the leatherworking mechanic that pairs with the clothworking mechanic, where a person in Storm is supposed to be able to make a living by working the raw goods one shop sells, and turning them in to the warehouse. I think people know its broken, because I never see people turn in boots and gloves to the warehouse that accepts clothes and leather goods. With legacy merchants, it might have been a way to level up leatherworking so that it branches armormaking, which right now is one of the top ways to make money in the game. But its not actually being used as intended.


With boot and glove prices being as they are in the Storm shops, and the prices of the raw leather not being able to be realistically lowered that much, I think it would be fine if it just made a little money, as compared to clothworking that makes quite a bit if you put some work into it. Most of my humans that have tried, however, can't make net gain at the end of the day at advanced leatherworking. I know its not armor, but its probably related on the skill trees for a class or two.

While true we're not working on that particular portion as this very moment, I can assure you that every single item is being looked at and if it is found to be broken, out of order with intended targets and so on, it'll be changed.

[Shabago]

I kind of hope the value-to-weight-to-quality balance feels more realistic.

That is to say.. something like this..

High weight + Good quality = moderate cost
High weight + Average quality = low cost
Average weight + Good quality = high cost
Average weight + Average quality = moderate cost
Low weight + Good quality = Highest cost
Low weight + Average quality = High cost

Weight = obviously how much it weighs
Quality = Protection/bonuses to things like camo or archery bracers

This wouldn't be something most (not all) items could obtain due to the nature of the materials. If it were high weight, chances are, it's strong/heavy materials such as horror/bahamet shell and thus offers a higher protection to the person, finally resulting in a higher cost.

[mansa]

...
I have a question regarding Armor weight.   Will there be race specific armor weights?   
Primarily will weaker races get a slightly 'lighter' version of some armours? 
And will some heavier races get some slightly 'heavier' version of the same armours?


I was thinking perhaps races could be adjusted by:
elves - 0.85
dwarves - 1.2
muls - 1.15
half-giants - I think they are already okay.

Not currently. Human/elf/dwarf will be drawing from the same pool and having items sized if/as needed.

HG gear can already be found IG - with potentially more to come.

Hey Shabago,

I guess I wasn't that clear.  I didn't mean item specific, but more of a modification to how the game calculates the weight of an item based on the race wearing it.
So the armor items are all the same 'base' weight, but when an elf wears it the game could calculated it as 15% lighter, and if a dwarf wears it the game could calculates it as 25% heavier.


It all stems from this question:
If I have three copies of a spiky bone breastplate and I've had it tailored to fit an average sized dwarf, an average sized human, and an average sized elf.

Would the breastplate tailored for the elf be heavier in weight than the one tailored for the dwarf?

[Brokkr]

Currently, yes.

[mansa]

...

It all stems from this question:
If I have three copies of a spiky bone breastplate and I've had it tailored to fit an average sized dwarf, an average sized human, and an average sized elf.

Would the breastplate tailored for the elf be heavier in weight than the one tailored for the dwarf?

Currently, yes.

I guess the next question is..
Should it?

For some reason (I blame Tolkien) I have in my head that the armour Elves wear should be lighter than the armour Dwarves wear.  In our game, elves have weaker strength than dwarves, so it seems that they are doubly penalized when wearing items.  (They can't carry as much weight, and the clothing they wear weighs more than other races)

It appears that since Shabago is going through armours right now and adjusting them, it might be a good idea to also make a change on how armour weights are calculated for non-human races.  In my opinion, if this is a change also warranted by game design, etc etc.  #ElvesNeedLoveToo

[Bushranger]

For some reason (I blame Tolkien) I have in my head that the armour Elves wear should be lighter than the armour Dwarves wear.  In our game, elves have weaker strength than dwarves, so it seems that they are doubly penalized when wearing items.  (They can't carry as much weight, and the clothing they wear weighs more than other races)

This is because of the "Size" attribute which is a combination of height and weight.

An example of this is an erdlu which is coded to only accept riders of a certain size otherwise they will not bear the weight of the rider - only this isn't exactly true as height seems to play a greater role in the size calculation than wight does and that erdlu will happily carry a short fat dwarf but will refuse to carry a tall half-elf who weighs much less than the dwarf.

Clothing is tailored to the "Size" attribute  and so tall skinny people have a much bigger size than short fat people. The breastplate for an elf should be tall and narrow while the breastplate for a dwarf will be shorter but much wider. I think the weights after tailoring are too extremely different from each other.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd rather see an equation of inches in height and ten-stone dictate armor weight, rather than a singular size stat, unless that size stat is already dynamically derived from both character weight and height.

Now I don't know if this would cause the elf's armor to be heavier or not, but I don't think it matters, because the simple fact is that if there is more body to cover, the armor will weigh more. Yes, dwarves do weigh more, but they are also much shorter - I'm not at all certain that their armor shouldn't be lighter than an elf's by simple virtue of how much flesh there is to cover.

78X9 = 702: max height and weight human
96x8 = 768: max height and weight elf
58x10 = 580: max height and weight dwarf
* _{my numbers might off just a tad, but you get the idea.}

But I'd be satisfied with a system that simply determined how much flesh had to be covered, and if the current size system does that appropriately, then leave it be.

[perfecto]

Question for the coders hard at work here.  Once you've made your changes will they apply to items currently in the game or just new versions afterwards?

eg #1: My obsidian breastplate weighs 20 stones and you've revamped them to weigh 35, is mine going to be the holy grail of obsidian breastplates?

eg #2: My used tattered loincloth smells of dust and sweat, but the new ones come with stank.  Therefore I must run out and buy a fresh smelly used tattered loincloth?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

An example of this is an erdlu which is coded to only accept riders of a certain size otherwise they will not bear the weight of the rider - only this isn't exactly true as height seems to play a greater role in the size calculation than wight does and that erdlu will happily carry a short fat dwarf but will refuse to carry a tall half-elf who weighs much less than the dwarf.

Clothing is tailored to the "Size" attribute  and so tall skinny people have a much bigger size than short fat people. The breastplate for an elf should be tall and narrow while the breastplate for a dwarf will be shorter but much wider. I think the weights after tailoring are too extremely different from each other.

See, I agree about the erdlue thing. Mounts should carry weight, not height. But gear is different. I think gear should include both height and weight into the equation, but, what's the equation?

Well, according to Google, when asked how much weight does height add:

(A) rule of thumb is to allow 100 pounds for the first 5 feet of height (for women) and 105 pounds (for men). Then, add 4-6 pounds per inch of height above this base (women), and 5-7 pounds per inch (men).

Unfortunately, we've got a very odd weight system, in that we don't count individual pounds for PCs. So we've got to have a slightly different equation. Perhaps the size attribute for our characters already is that equation.

But I'd probably make sure mounts took into account weight, and not height, or, took height into much less consideration.

[Shabago]

Just a quick note to tell you all that I'm still actively looking into this daily. In the interest of transparency and or honesty, certain aspects can't be answered yet. Not due to a 'We don't want you to know' but more a 'Discussions continue on items beyond armor at this time'.

What I can tell you at this stage, is we are not ignoring play-ability for the races, while also attempting to maintain realism.

[MeTekillot]

Just give elves * 1.75 to their encumbrance because they got strong legs?

[Brokkr]

We are taking into account playability.  But it may be a more "Elves should at least wear leather" type playability than a "elves should be able to wear a full set of scrab gear" type playability.

[Armaddict]

We are taking into account playability.  But it may be a more "Elves should at least wear leather" type playability than a "elves should be able to wear a full set of scrab gear" type playability.

This is good.  Platemail elves bad.


Edit:  For further elaboration, elf with average strength should probably be able to wear light leathers and carry around typical items in addition, or heavier leathers without additional weights, without suffering from encumbrance.

elf with very good strength should probably be able to wear some heavier leathers with their light leathers and carry around typical items in addition, or heavier leathers and a couple extra items, without suffering from encumbrance.

elf with high strength should probably be able to wear heavier leathers with typical items, and possibly look around for custom crafts of leather/studded hybrids for specific locations and carry typical items, without encumbrance.

[Veselka]

Along with all this encumbrance mishegas -- It would be cool if heavier armor (plate, shell, scale) had various degrees of effect on your stamina. Whether that means lowering the maximum stamina (akin to how scan lowers your maximum stun) or just draining faster while in combat, it would sure change people's attitudes on armor in general. Similar to how certain armor raises your maximum stamina, and why that would be beneficial if traveling on foot or for long distances in the wastes.

I'd propose, in an ideal world where coding wasn't difficult and time consuming (And in part this is theory crafting, because some of this may already be true):

+Armor that is heavy duty (chitin/plate/scale) lowers your maximum stamina.

+Doing combat maneuvers (rescue/kick/bash/riposte/hack) drains your stamina faster in heavy armor.

+Heavy Armor is incredibly protective against even the strongest of blows. If damage is going to be greivous/unspeakable (say 40-60hp in one hit), the armor where it hits shatters and you receive reduced damage. The armor remains but is 'cracked/useless' Therefore, sustained injuries to the same area will result in full damage.

+Heavy Armor has a higher chance of deflecting missile weapons. If an arrow penetrates heavy armor, it does reduced damage, and the armor is more severely damaged.

+Medium/Light armor begins to scale up on the maximum stamina and reduce stamina loss.

+Bonuses might be added for certain armor against different damage types (piercing, slashing, etc.) that could perhaps even be assessed by an armor crafter/repair person (This armor appears well suited to defend against piercing weapons, this armor appears vulnerable to chopping weapons).


Questions I would love people to be forced to ask themselves:
Am I fighting / defending within a city, mainly? Do I keep a set of battle armor for major events? Do I wear the same suit of armor, all the damn time? If I'm out in the wastes, should I be wearing more breathable armor that keeps my body temperature down?

I'm always a bit leery of those 20-30+ day warriors that suddenly look like little Scrabs, decked out in plate and shell everywhere. I'm guilty of it too, because guess what, better armor saves lives. There should be a downside to wearing more protective armor, particularly in a harsh desert landscape like Zalanthas, mostly in the form of sacrificing your longevity in the field.