Magickal Spook Factor

[Nao]

I would like to point out that fear of magick is not always obvious and can be pretty subtle.

I have heard IG that someone was terrified of a certain  magicker, but did not date show it out if fear that he would be killed if he showed any negative reaction. Which... seemed totally valid in that situation. My own character did show fear, initially  ran, and had enough discomfort for several magicker PCs to pick up on that discomfort. Apparently, it was not obvious enough for staff to pick it up, though, and they did ask some questions.

I have also had someone admit they were terrified of my magicker, and did not pick up on any of that myself.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I once had a PC that was both terrified and infatuated with a magicker. They had wild sex all the time. I'm pretty sure there were at least a handful of folks that knew about it, but those people seemed (at least on the surface) to understand. Since this is a magicker spook thread, I'm curious what you all think about sex with gickers, and how that plays into the whole scare factor thing.

[TheWanderer]

helps bend and erode documentation, and hopefully people black-sheeped you for it to offset that. though due to prior experiences in this game, it's a dubious proposition at best.

but no worries, bruh. who doesn't want slip and slide fun with a viv? horny nerds unite. let's fight for our mudsex fantasies

[gotdamnmiracle]

I don't think we should throw caution to the wind, but I do think extreme conservative cautious temperance when it comes to giving players more coded power is stifling to the game. The game would be more exciting and dynamic if the same philosophy were applied to giving players power that is followed when it comes to taking it away.

Are you suggesting that the loss of fear against magick is an indirect result of the ever present glass ceiling effect?

[Harmless]

There does seem to be a pattern of secret trysts with mages. As has been said before, this playerbase is horny. Some characters exude wit, charm, and artful descriptions of themselves or their actions, which equate to attractiveness and desirability for interaction, and those characters are often played by high karma players, and magick is one of the most commonly bought karma rewards. Players into the bonding roleplay story arc (which is a lot of our playerbase lately) will try to get their PC romantically involved with mages even if there is risk involved. Over time a proliferation of IC excuses are invented among different players..either in backgrounds or not, to allow their character to be "soft" on "that one" mage that their PC is sweet on...which I agree, does erode the fear factor over time.

In my opinion, the greatest balance of the above is the shame from higher levels of power on such feelings and actions. It might come from other commoners, but this is usually not that dangerous to the romance plot and it keeps going. Reluctance to intervene may be due to the knowledge that witches tend to be connected. (this is true for publicly known witches, usually). Any witch that isn't well connected is generally in hiding anyway.

Templars, however, can, and SHOULD, be oppressing the gemmed...brutally if needed. I've never had a gemmed that had a romance with an ungemmed, but if I did (though I doubt I'd want to get into this kind of plot for the foreseeable future), I would do it hoping for a "tragic" outcome that reinforces the theme.

In other words, turn trends of players roleplaying "errantly" according to the docs into opportunities (for murder, corruption, betrayal), and have the players "be the change" by responding in an IC way that helps to establish the culture.

[TheWanderer]

Yep. It's just a matter of having players make life hell for players who do taboo shit. But if it's not a unified effort, it'll fall flat.

Also, just food for thought, if you're a noble/templar, maybe elevate yourself and don't fuck or engage with everything that has half a pulse. As mentioned by Harmless, you can set the examples for that sort of behavior.

[Lizzie]

Storytime:

I played a whiran in Tuluk who got killed by a templar. Understandable, my bad for getting caught.
I then played an ungemmed mage outside of Tuluk, who went to Tuluk to visit, and got killed by the same templar. Woops.
I then played a mundane, who had MET a whiran, and I ended up getting killed by the SAME templar. Just for knowing a whiran.
I THEN played a mundane, who avoided going to Tuluk because *I* the player was tired of having my characters killed by that templar. My character was assassinated - under orders of that templar, who suspected my character of harboring a whiran fugitive (the same one my previous character got killed for knowing).

A little bitter, sure. Mostly bitter because I never learned how to "interact with mages in any way, shape, or form, without THAT templar killing my character or arranging their assassination." Not because my characters got killed.

I wish there was more of this in Allanak. Not to that extreme, certainly. But we're at the opposite extreme where someone can actually come to the GDB and even ask peoples' opinions about a mundane PC knowingly mudsexing a mage, in Allanak. The fact that someone would even ask that on the GDB shows how far to the other extreme we've gone. I feel we need to start pulling the other way.

[ABoredLion]

Man, this thread just went off the rails hard in a couple of posts. To put it lightly, having sex with someone does not make them less dangerous. It's not the standard by which you should measure someone's danger or lack thereof, because let me tell you, sex has been used as a manipulating force to keeping dangerous people on your side for who knows how long.

As to the templars, that seems more like a backhanded insult toward some templar or series of them, when the game world doesn't really reflect much for it being wrong for them to get their jollies. There's a fine line and all, but let's not derail the point of the thread.

Trysts between gemmed and nongemmed should always be a source of what will ultimately be thought to be a dangerous and fruitless endeavor where the gemmed is either suicidal or just trying to eke out one little bit of happiness before they inevitably get caught and killed for it. The ungemmed is probably taking a huge risk, and in general, I think you'll find these relationships are going to end tragically (usually with the death of one of them). That's my opinion. On the point of this thread? This does not make magickers more or less feared.

As to other people shacking up with magickers, I think it depends heavily on a variety of things. In general it is taboo. There are some areas where it is more taboo, and some areas where it is going to impact you more to be doing something taboo. Further, you've got to bear in mind that any number of things can be driving them to doing whatever, and as I mentioned far above, sex does not make someone more or less scary. I've played mundanes and magickers both who scared the living hell out of their partners. Having a mundane partner is not responsible for magickers not being scary.

The truth of it is that danger as it is most represented from 'magicker' to 'other', is in their ability to harm(through information, long distance attacks, or physically) them in some way without suffering themselves for it, or especially, risking themselves for it overly much. For dealing with a magicker, if they have to be right in your face to do anything to you, and you're never worried about 'right in your face' engagements because you and your 5 friends spar every morning in your clan hall, then you're not worried, just as an example.

That's the unfortunate nature of a MUD relying on code for certain things. I feel like I'm going over already gone over points though. I just wanted to bring this to heel before this went over the top again.

@Lizzie, none of that was on the point of the thread. No going off the rails here!

[Lizzie]

The point is that lack of fear and mystery, or reinforcement of the lack of coded support of the fear and mystery, is a problem.

You shouldn't be having sex with mages because - their very existence is a mistake of nature. It'd be like wanting to have sex with a plugged in lamp with a broken lightbulb on top. Or wanting to have sex underwater, with no snorkel mask or oxygen tank. Or wanting to have sex in a lit firepit. Or wanting to have sex with a rock, that will turn your insides to stone if it gets too excited.

There should be - I emphasis: there SHOULD be - fear of the potential for any of these things happening. Or worse, or more depraved, or more scary, or more nauseating and sickening.

ICly - your character should think that these things might actually be possible. Your mage character should also be thinking these things might some day actually happen. That they're not coded actualities shouldn't matter.

Sadly, people tend to dismiss these IC possibilities, precisely because there's no coded consequences. And because they dismiss them, you have people making excuses to play the exception to the rule so frequently that the rule ceases to exist.

And that is a very good example (though certainly not the only example) of why there's no magickal spook factor.

[X-D]

Heh...you wanna make all mages scary very easily?

Give them a choice of one of the extra reaches in char creation.

[boog]

I'm sorry. What the heck? You guys fuck magickers? You don't hate them all? I am completely perplexed that anyone would ever accept a magicker who isn't a magicker themselves. And hell, they aren't even supposed to like all the others.

Nobles and templars fucking magickers? That is abhorrent. They have access to the best, cleanest companions in pleasure slaves, or they can pick better than average looking commoners on the streets. I'm completely... surprised. Wow.

[TheWanderer]

People always trying really hard to justify their sexy times.

[ABoredLion]

If a templar is banging a magicker, that's bad. End of the story. That's life ending if it gets out. That's one of those things that they'd never do as far as I can tell, knowingly. As to whether templars ever have sex with commoners, that's something thrown around in Allanak often enough. It isn't Tuluk. And last I checked, no templars are given personal pleasure slaves at generation.

But again, we're way off subject. I keep trying to point toward a direction that gets cohesive possibilities and ideas that maybe staff can see. Everyone wants to draw back to this whole 'be better roleplayers' thing and I guess I gotta give up. Hopefully someone upstairs got something from this, heh.

I think added utility and increased deadliness is the way to go, from a coded perspective.

[boog]

I don't think that giving subguild magickers more things is going to make people perceive them as more deadly. These issues have always been issues. People choose to interpret the documentation with their own spin.

If people aren't afraid of magickers because they OOCly know they are neutered power wise, well, they should be reported to staff because that isn't adhering correctly.

I do think some subguilds need to be boosted, but if we are going to make magickers super powerful, we need to cap them. Everyone rolling in with a Krathi or Whiran who could snuff you in a couple of hits would be silly.

[Cind]

The IC fear and hatred of magickers should be so great that a normal commoner under most circumstances is not going to continuously expose their most delicate parts to them in a sexual fashion once a day every day for the rest of their lives, where the fear of finding out means death, including the death of the witch you obviously have such a major crush on you couldn't help going up to them and asking, "Your place or mine?"

I'm just saying, if people did this a little less, maybe it would feel more believable, and less like we are all living in a democratic, free-loving society of equals merely playing warrior and merchant in a DnD-style game.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Perhaps a simple change in the documentarion regarding magick users manifesting could be beneficial? Such as something saying that nearly all magick users are aware of their abilities after puberty. This way you would have far less surprise magick users just joining the byn (or the Arm or the garrison) for the sweet experience ahead of time. And a lot fewer magickers in general. I think the relative return to rarity would make it much easier to RP fear, loathing, and disgust accurately.

[Lizzie]

The IC fear and hatred of magickers should be so great that a normal commoner under most circumstances is not going to continuously expose their most delicate parts to them in a sexual fashion once a day every day for the rest of their lives, where the fear of finding out means death, including the death of the witch you obviously have such a major crush on you couldn't help going up to them and asking, "Your place or mine?"

I'm just saying, if people did this a little less, maybe it would feel more believable, and less like we are all living in a democratic, free-loving society of equals merely playing warrior and merchant in a DnD-style game.

"fear of finding out" is missing the point entirely.

The point is "fear of those intimate parts falling off, turning to stone, burning you to a cinder from the inside out, dehydrating you until you're just powder, being made permanently frigid/unable to get it up, permanent infertility, or your kids guaranteed to be mutants." THESE are things that should be your character's primary concerns when presented with the opportunity to have sex with a mage. The result of those concerns, for anyone sane, would be "hell no."

[mansa]

Perhaps a simple change in the documentarion regarding magick users manifesting could be beneficial? Such as something saying that nearly all magick users are aware of their abilities after puberty. This way you would have far less surprise magick users just joining the byn (or the Arm or the garrison) for the sweet experience ahead of time. And a lot fewer magickers in general. I think the relative return to rarity would make it much easier to RP fear, loathing, and disgust accurately.

There was a great magick guide on the old website.
Stuff like

• What's the culture like?
• Sample Backgrounds
• Examples of cantrips
• Things to consider when creating a magick character
• All around General Magick FAQ

The new one has some good things too:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Magick%20Roleplay

...Actually, it's pretty much the same from the old to the new, with the exception of the sample backgrounds link.


Maybe we all should re-read the documentation and see if it's supposed to align with how we're thinking about Magickers.
If something is documented one way, but doesn't actually play out in game - we should point out the inconsistencies and give solid examples of how to change.

[MeTekillot]

Well the documentation says magick is a world-shaking force of power, and it doesn't really play out that way in game with most of the magick available to players.

[gotdamnmiracle]

The IC fear and hatred of magickers should be so great that a normal commoner under most circumstances is not going to continuously expose their most delicate parts to them in a sexual fashion once a day every day for the rest of their lives, where the fear of finding out means death, including the death of the witch you obviously have such a major crush on you couldn't help going up to them and asking, "Your place or mine?"

I'm just saying, if people did this a little less, maybe it would feel more believable, and less like we are all living in a democratic, free-loving society of equals merely playing warrior and merchant in a DnD-style game.

"fear of finding out" is missing the point entirely.

The point is "fear of those intimate parts falling off, turning to stone, burning you to a cinder from the inside out, dehydrating you until you're just powder, being made permanently frigid/unable to get it up, permanent infertility, or your kids guaranteed to be mutants." THESE are things that should be your character's primary concerns when presented with the opportunity to have sex with a mage. The result of those concerns, for anyone sane, would be "hell no."

You're missing my point. I don't care about mage fucking. I think it's stupid and should be super frowned upon, but I think mudsex is appalling as a rule anyway.

No, my point is that if we return the relative rarity to most mages perhaps it'll be easier to rp at them properly. As in, when you don't have suspicions that the three other Runners in your squad are witches because they would already have been outed and not allowed in the byn by this point.

Well the documentation says magick is a world-shaking force of power, and it doesn't really play out that way in game with most of the magick available to players.

It's the glass ceiling. That power definitely exists, in the sorcerer kings and their lackeys. Remember how powerful a Red Robe is supposed to be? It's just that no character will ever likely be able to harness it and if they saw that kind of power it's likely they'd be on the business end of it (to be read instakilled).

[Lizzie]

You're missing my point. I don't care about mage fucking. I think it's stupid and should be super frowned upon, but I think mudsex is appalling as a rule anyway.

Someone upthread posted an inquiry about opinions on this. The fact that they posted - is what got me started. The fact that people would actually ask about it - is a concern. It shouldn't be a thing, at all. But apparently it is. And I think that's a problem, that speaks very clearly to the overall issue of "lack of mage spookitude."

[gotdamnmiracle]

You're missing my point. I don't care about mage fucking. I think it's stupid and should be super frowned upon, but I think mudsex is appalling as a rule anyway.

Someone upthread posted an inquiry about opinions on this. The fact that they posted - is what got me started. The fact that people would actually ask about it - is a concern. It shouldn't be a thing, at all. But apparently it is. And I think that's a problem, that speaks very clearly to the overall issue of "lack of mage spookitude."

I can agree with that, I suppose.

I read your post as a critique of my own.

[AdamBlue]

A good love story always ends in tragedy.

[MeTekillot]

Everything does.

[Cind]

One time a mundane character of mine and an acquaintance were talking together at a table in the Gaj by themselves about how mages were disgusting, disturbing, etc. and it ended up so that we were forced by a mage who had overhead us to apologize to them for saying those things, having our hands forced by a templar. I'll tell you one thing--- that mage was always washed and clean.

I was actually trying to say how people who do these things and then attempt to be discovered, I give them brownie points. But, for the sake of the gameworld, especially since it is a small gameworld, it may not be the best idea to play the exception -every single time,-, or most of the time, or even half of the time.

Amos and Talia were best friends and bedtime buddies, and then Talia manifests and gets gemmed, and they don't sleep together anymore but Amos hangs around outside her temple pretending to be a street sweeper. I get it. You knew them before the gem, and you're acting appropriately to the gameworld, because I consider obsession appropriate.

You've had five characters, all mundane---- and each of them had secretly slept with a gemmer, in a game with strict rp enforcement where secrets never stay secret for long. Wait...