Karma regen, Karma prohibition, who is waiting on regen?

[Derain]

So I've been thinking to get that 3 karma back it's going to take 120 days. how many great players are we missing for 75, 30 or 120 days on a game with an already lower population? Is it hurting anyone to just let us have our karma options open? perhaps even 15 days each wouldn't be insanely horrible?

Thoughts would be very much appreciated.

[MeTekillot]

Agreed.

[Krath]

15 days for each karma would be much more reasonable in my opinion.

[Delirium]

Initially the idea of Karma regeneration was to keep magickers, half-giants and muls more rare. The problem we're running to is due to gating mundane esg's behind karma walls, which I maintain is a big mistake. At the very least lower all mundane subs to 1 karma max. That will alleviate this regeneration issue.

[MeTekillot]

Why remove all of someone's karma options instead of just removing half-giants, muls, or magickers for a MUCH SMALLER period than 120 days after someone plays one or dies as one?

I also agree that ESG's should not require karma.

[Heade]

Honestly? I've heard a lot of people complain about this on the GDB, however...I think the intention was to make it so that the game wasn't completely full of 2-3 karma characters that are supposed to be "rare" in the game world. And under the current karma system, it already feels like half the people you meet IC are secret magickers.

I think, what we're beginning to see here, is the effect of the Karma system breaking down. For a long time, there were enough new players and older players that played mundanes to keep the population level of mundanes pretty high compared to magick classes and such. But, over time, with a karma system that encourages veteran players to stick around to play more high karma roles, and with far fewer new players, the percentage of people playing those mundane classes has likely shifted fairly far away from what was ever intended.

It doesn't help that we have 2 karma MUNDANE subguilds. No one wants to wait that long for that. So, when put to the choice of spending that 2 karma on a magicker, or a mundane ESG, people often just say screw it and go with the magicker.

We really do need to do something to discourage the magick treadmill, though. The number of people playing magickers in the game is out of hand, still. Despite the karma regen system, I'd say the percentage of magickers is probably as high as the game has ever had. The game canon no longer makes sense in the game. When you meet magickers constantly, it's hard, as a mundane, to stay fearful of magick as a rare thing. Also, so many plots tie so closely to magick this, magick that, that unless mundanes stay completely out of the plot, they're further entrenched in this very magical world, which again, is sort of contrary to the documentation of the game.

Arm has, historically, always been a "low-fantasy" sort of MUD, where magick exists but it's rare enough that the vast majority of characters don't see anything to do with magick on a day to day basis. It doesn't feel like that, now. I think any discussion of the Karma regen system really needs to address what both staff, and the community wants the game to look like. And if 50% magickers ends up being the consensus, then some serious documentation updates probably need to take place.

I don't think that's people's desire, though. I don't think people want to just be in the magickal half of the game. I'd think part of the appeal of it is that it's special. So, I imagine that the goal should likely be somewhere around 80% of active PCs being mundane, non-mul, non-HGs. We could encourage more mundane play by dropping ESGs across the board to 1 karma, to make them more attractive to players who could otherwise play a magicker class.

[Marauder Moe]

Re-work subguilds so none take karma, but add mundane perks for spending karma: skill boosts, starting money boosts, or custom crafting allowances.  That way no one feels like they have to wait for a concept, but more people will spend karma on things besides hidden 'gicks.

[Derain]

All I am saying is some people want to play the game and are not because they are waiting for the Mul HG magicker karma to regen. Maybe a rule 4 magickers per year aka Special apps let the rest of us have all the other shit we may want to play?

[MeTekillot]

I agree with both Moe and Derain.

[Delirium]

Re-work subguilds so none take karma, but add mundane perks for spending karma: skill boosts, starting money boosts, or custom crafting allowances.  That way no one feels like they have to wait for a concept, but more people will spend karma on things besides hidden 'gicks.

Bam. Perfect.

[Heade]

Re-work mundane subguilds so none take karma, but add mundane perks for spending karma: skill boosts, starting money boosts, or custom crafting allowances.  That way no one feels like they have to wait for a concept, but more people will spend karma on things besides hidden 'gicks.

I could potentially get behind this, if it didn't mean that existing ESGs had to have skill levels/utility dropped in order to fall in line with the rework. I'd like more mundane options for spending karma. Skill CAP boosts would be a nice option, too, rather than just starting skill level boosts.

Unfortunately, I seriously expect that if this gained any traction, ESGs WOULD lose a bit of their utility/skill caps. So, instead, I'd still rather just see all ESGs across the board lowered to 1 karma. That doesn't exclude the rest of your idea, though, which I'd still like to see offered. The two thoughts aren't mutually exclusive.

Having all ESGs cost 1 karma also encourages players who could play magickers to spend their karma on something else, which will lower the number of magickers we see IG, I think.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think anything needs to be nerfed to be reduced in karma.  The new guilds are so much more versatile than the old ones that extended subguilds really don't represent that much of a power jump anymore.

[Heade]

I don't think anything needs to be nerfed to be reduced in karma.  The new guilds are so much more versatile than the old ones that extended subguilds really don't represent that much of a power jump anymore.

What you think and what the people that would ultimately make the decision think may not align. Based on what I've seen from staff, I could virtually guarantee that if there was a rework of ESGs to be zero karma, they'd take a skillcap/utility hit. Making them 1 karma across the board, that wouldn't be necessary, and would STILL encourage players to spend karma on non-magickers, which would subsequently lower the number of people playing magicker roles in the long run. Particularly with our current karma regen system.

For example:
You have 3 karma, but decide to play a mundane human with a 1 karma ESG. You now have 2 karma available. That PC dies before you regen any. Often, players don't wait long to create a new PC, and rather than wait for karma to regen again, they make another 1 cost ESG PC. Now down to 1 karma. Maybe that PC dies after a RL month, at which point, the first karma point spent regened, and they're back to 2 karma. Still, not playing a 3 karma role. So they might play, yet another 1 karma ESG, or go with something else that they can get for 2 karma. In either case, it's working to keep the 3 karma things more rare.

[mansa]

I'd prefer some statistics about player habits that would dictate a change.

How many characters get created
Have karma spent
Real life time before death
Time spent before making a new character
New character karma spent
Typical breakdown of class / subclass / race

Mmmmm data

[Brokkr]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

[MeTekillot]

We're not arguing that we didn't know the plan, we are saying that the plan, in execution, does not seem as good as it did on paper.

[Heade]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

Yeah, I anticipated your feelings on this, Brokkr. I still think making them 1 karma across the board makes the most sense for the game. Having the 2 karma ESGs just makes people pick magickers instead, making this MagicGeddon. And if that's what staff wants, fine. But let's change the docs to reflect the change in the IC culture, then. It's jarring to have half the PCs you meet be secret magickers while still attempting to RP and pretend magick is rare and frightening IC.

[MeTekillot]

Magick isn't really frightening in its current course either since all the BEEFY spell synergies got busted apart into different aspects, high magicker population or not, but that's only slightly relevant to the karma discussion.

[Heade]

Magick isn't really frightening in its current course either since all the BEEFY spell synergies got busted apart into different aspects, high magicker population or not, but that's only slightly relevant to the karma discussion.

Actually, the magicker population is incredibly relevant to the karma discussion, if karma regen is being used to limit the percentage of players playing them at any given time.

[Vex]

When doing a role call, we spent almost a month, waiting for people to regen karma, before it could really even get started. There are others, I know of, who simply will not play the game, unless it's utilizing their full karma, every time.

I do understand the reasoning, especially for people who tend to have longer lived characters. It would be rather annoying, to be sitting there at 50 days played, with your 0 karma fighter, being completely shown up by some 10 day fighter, who had the karma to bump his weapon skills, and pick a strictly superior sub, on top of that.

This is, essentially, what my point has been. Karma is pure inequity, and due to the game running the older code, which is much more hack and slashy than more modern alternatives, people with more karma, shine immediately brighter, burn longer, and tend to have many more hard code advantages, than a new player, or even a low karma player.

A 3 karma player, can double bump weapon skills, and still pick the best-in-show extended sub or magick sub, and be, out of the gate, leagues ahead of someone, who has been around for a month.

Naturally, we all know this, so it only makes sense, that more people opt to go play elsewhere waiting for their karma, or for their friends to regen karma, or they make disposable characters, they never planned to care about.

There are some exceptions, such as heavy merchants, who basically have to take 0 karma custom crafter, and enjoy virtually no benefits from skill bumps, due to crafting being super easy to max out, but mostly, if your making a pc and you don't die constantly, it just makes sense to wait and maximize your pcs potential, when the games life or death is EXTREMELY weighted by who has the biggest code advantage.

The karma system, seems to promote, mostly negative feelings, inequities, and reinforce the perceptions of staff favoritism, corruption, and that sort of thing. Whatever it was supposed to police, originally, I couldn't say, but I see no real quality difference, between the self-celebrated vets, and vets from other games, who have come, and perform just as well, so YEARS LONG WAIT to get karma enough, to play magickers when you fancy, is already going to turn off many players.

To play even a mundane, at the same level, as a three karma player, without the arduous and time consuming process (for player and staff), of request tool apps, you'd need to play for three years minimum (and I know, at least one player, who has 15 years played here, and never got max, which is ludicrous!), and additionally, wait up to 120 days between characters, if you happen to get unlucky, with an AI scrab, or gith, five hours into your 3 karma pc.

It is a system, that promotes a broad spectrum of negatives, to police problems, that aren't clear to most players, it'd seem. Rules because rules, maybe? It shouldn't be a surprise, though, if players continue to "wait it out" in order to level the field for themselves, or slant it in their favor, as much as possible.

It is the system in place, and that is the kind of behavior it promotes. That shouldn't be a surprise, to anyone.

[Eyeball]

There are others, I know of, who simply will not play the game, unless it's utilizing their full karma, every time.

I don't understand this. Do these people absolutely have to be a mage or a half-giant?

The new guilds have broadened ability, I don't really even see why having an extended subguild would make such a difference, especially given that most characters probably never reach their full potential anyhow.

A 3 karma player, can double bump weapon skills

That character is still going to be crap at parrying, shield use and such and will need to train. He or she will still potentially be a crappy rider and will be falling off mounts for a while. It's not such a big advantage.

Like Mansa noted, it would be great if some stats could be compiled.

[Brokkr]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

Yeah, I anticipated your feelings on this, Brokkr. I still think making them 1 karma across the board makes the most sense for the game. Having the 2 karma ESGs just makes people pick magickers instead, making this MagicGeddon. And if that's what staff wants, fine. But let's change the docs to reflect the change in the IC culture, then. It's jarring to have half the PCs you meet be secret magickers while still attempting to RP and pretend magick is rare and frightening IC.

My personal feelings aren't expressed in that, it is merely a statement that if you've done your reading you should have known what was coming.

I can see everyone's class and subclass in the game by simply typing "who".  I am not seeing an issue, in terms of distribution between mundane and magickal subclasses. If this is happening with half the PCs you meet, you are meeting a tiny fraction of the available characters, and are very far out the tail in terms of probability. Classes are irrelevant as we passed a milestone within the last couple of months, such that no PC main class magicker characters remain.

[Vex]

I don't understand this. Do these people absolutely have to be a mage or a half-giant?

Why play a thief, when you can play a rogue instead, I suppose? Why handicap yourself, if being patient will reap you bigger returns? Its a pretty human response, imo.

The new guilds have broadened ability, I don't really even see why having an extended subguild would make such a difference, especially given that most characters probably never reach their full potential anyhow.

The difference between thief, and rogue, is SCAN, PICK and skills you can actually use... and you can't see the difference? Or the difference between Hunter and Outdoorsman? I get it's a popular tactic on the GDB, to act obtuse, but you're really going over the top with it.

That character is still going to be crap at parrying, shield use and such and will need to train. He or she will still potentially be a crappy rider and will be falling off mounts for a while. It's not such a big advantage.

Are you comparing raising riding, shield use and parrying, to raising weapon skills? Who, exactly, do you think you're fooling, here?

[Brokkr]

Magick isn't really frightening in its current course either since all the BEEFY spell synergies got busted apart into different aspects, high magicker population or not, but that's only slightly relevant to the karma discussion.

Some spell / spell synergies are replaced with spell /skill synergies, which typically scale at a slower rate. There are still some truly frightening outcomes that can be achieved (having seen some).

[lairos]

I personally have yet to run into an issue with this, but is 120 days a really long time? Yes, it is. Sure, there are those couple of special apps you can use on top of your karma, but we all know you can have a string of really bad luck. I can go play just about any other game and I don't have to wait to play something I have earned the ability to play. I too would like to know the stats of it all, but from prior posts there are at least a few, at minimum, who won't play once their character dies until they can utilize their karma again. If that character dies a week or two down the road? We just lost that player for one to four months. If that happens to five players that is starting to be a good cut into the player base.

I don't know the full intention of staff behind the time periods and there may be a good reason behind it. Maybe it was a perceived good timeframe at first, but the timeframe has been changed once and maybe it needs more tweaking? I too would likely pick a magick sub over a 2 karma mundane sub -almost- every single time purely out of the time required for waiting. As I said, I have yet to experience it, but if I would usually have access to a concept I wanted to play, but could not play it for another 30-120 days? I think I would have to admit that I likely would wait the time than making something I didn't want to play myself. I am not saying I always need to play a mul/half-giant/mage and I haven't played a single magick sub since they came out, but simply stating that if I had a concept I wanted to play I don't know if I would try to write something up that I really didn't want to play just to fill in the gap until I could play my concept I wanted.