Karma regen, Karma prohibition, who is waiting on regen?

[Derain]

So I've been thinking to get that 3 karma back it's going to take 120 days. how many great players are we missing for 75, 30 or 120 days on a game with an already lower population? Is it hurting anyone to just let us have our karma options open? perhaps even 15 days each wouldn't be insanely horrible?

Thoughts would be very much appreciated.

[MeTekillot]

Agreed.

[Krath]

15 days for each karma would be much more reasonable in my opinion.

[Delirium]

Initially the idea of Karma regeneration was to keep magickers, half-giants and muls more rare. The problem we're running to is due to gating mundane esg's behind karma walls, which I maintain is a big mistake. At the very least lower all mundane subs to 1 karma max. That will alleviate this regeneration issue.

[MeTekillot]

Why remove all of someone's karma options instead of just removing half-giants, muls, or magickers for a MUCH SMALLER period than 120 days after someone plays one or dies as one?

I also agree that ESG's should not require karma.

[Heade]

Honestly? I've heard a lot of people complain about this on the GDB, however...I think the intention was to make it so that the game wasn't completely full of 2-3 karma characters that are supposed to be "rare" in the game world. And under the current karma system, it already feels like half the people you meet IC are secret magickers.

I think, what we're beginning to see here, is the effect of the Karma system breaking down. For a long time, there were enough new players and older players that played mundanes to keep the population level of mundanes pretty high compared to magick classes and such. But, over time, with a karma system that encourages veteran players to stick around to play more high karma roles, and with far fewer new players, the percentage of people playing those mundane classes has likely shifted fairly far away from what was ever intended.

It doesn't help that we have 2 karma MUNDANE subguilds. No one wants to wait that long for that. So, when put to the choice of spending that 2 karma on a magicker, or a mundane ESG, people often just say screw it and go with the magicker.

We really do need to do something to discourage the magick treadmill, though. The number of people playing magickers in the game is out of hand, still. Despite the karma regen system, I'd say the percentage of magickers is probably as high as the game has ever had. The game canon no longer makes sense in the game. When you meet magickers constantly, it's hard, as a mundane, to stay fearful of magick as a rare thing. Also, so many plots tie so closely to magick this, magick that, that unless mundanes stay completely out of the plot, they're further entrenched in this very magical world, which again, is sort of contrary to the documentation of the game.

Arm has, historically, always been a "low-fantasy" sort of MUD, where magick exists but it's rare enough that the vast majority of characters don't see anything to do with magick on a day to day basis. It doesn't feel like that, now. I think any discussion of the Karma regen system really needs to address what both staff, and the community wants the game to look like. And if 50% magickers ends up being the consensus, then some serious documentation updates probably need to take place.

I don't think that's people's desire, though. I don't think people want to just be in the magickal half of the game. I'd think part of the appeal of it is that it's special. So, I imagine that the goal should likely be somewhere around 80% of active PCs being mundane, non-mul, non-HGs. We could encourage more mundane play by dropping ESGs across the board to 1 karma, to make them more attractive to players who could otherwise play a magicker class.

[Marauder Moe]

Re-work subguilds so none take karma, but add mundane perks for spending karma: skill boosts, starting money boosts, or custom crafting allowances.  That way no one feels like they have to wait for a concept, but more people will spend karma on things besides hidden 'gicks.

[Derain]

All I am saying is some people want to play the game and are not because they are waiting for the Mul HG magicker karma to regen. Maybe a rule 4 magickers per year aka Special apps let the rest of us have all the other shit we may want to play?

[MeTekillot]

I agree with both Moe and Derain.

[Delirium]

Re-work subguilds so none take karma, but add mundane perks for spending karma: skill boosts, starting money boosts, or custom crafting allowances.  That way no one feels like they have to wait for a concept, but more people will spend karma on things besides hidden 'gicks.

Bam. Perfect.

[Heade]

Re-work mundane subguilds so none take karma, but add mundane perks for spending karma: skill boosts, starting money boosts, or custom crafting allowances.  That way no one feels like they have to wait for a concept, but more people will spend karma on things besides hidden 'gicks.

I could potentially get behind this, if it didn't mean that existing ESGs had to have skill levels/utility dropped in order to fall in line with the rework. I'd like more mundane options for spending karma. Skill CAP boosts would be a nice option, too, rather than just starting skill level boosts.

Unfortunately, I seriously expect that if this gained any traction, ESGs WOULD lose a bit of their utility/skill caps. So, instead, I'd still rather just see all ESGs across the board lowered to 1 karma. That doesn't exclude the rest of your idea, though, which I'd still like to see offered. The two thoughts aren't mutually exclusive.

Having all ESGs cost 1 karma also encourages players who could play magickers to spend their karma on something else, which will lower the number of magickers we see IG, I think.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think anything needs to be nerfed to be reduced in karma.  The new guilds are so much more versatile than the old ones that extended subguilds really don't represent that much of a power jump anymore.

[Heade]

I don't think anything needs to be nerfed to be reduced in karma.  The new guilds are so much more versatile than the old ones that extended subguilds really don't represent that much of a power jump anymore.

What you think and what the people that would ultimately make the decision think may not align. Based on what I've seen from staff, I could virtually guarantee that if there was a rework of ESGs to be zero karma, they'd take a skillcap/utility hit. Making them 1 karma across the board, that wouldn't be necessary, and would STILL encourage players to spend karma on non-magickers, which would subsequently lower the number of people playing magicker roles in the long run. Particularly with our current karma regen system.

For example:
You have 3 karma, but decide to play a mundane human with a 1 karma ESG. You now have 2 karma available. That PC dies before you regen any. Often, players don't wait long to create a new PC, and rather than wait for karma to regen again, they make another 1 cost ESG PC. Now down to 1 karma. Maybe that PC dies after a RL month, at which point, the first karma point spent regened, and they're back to 2 karma. Still, not playing a 3 karma role. So they might play, yet another 1 karma ESG, or go with something else that they can get for 2 karma. In either case, it's working to keep the 3 karma things more rare.

[mansa]

I'd prefer some statistics about player habits that would dictate a change.

How many characters get created
Have karma spent
Real life time before death
Time spent before making a new character
New character karma spent
Typical breakdown of class / subclass / race

Mmmmm data

[Brokkr]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

[MeTekillot]

We're not arguing that we didn't know the plan, we are saying that the plan, in execution, does not seem as good as it did on paper.

[Heade]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

Yeah, I anticipated your feelings on this, Brokkr. I still think making them 1 karma across the board makes the most sense for the game. Having the 2 karma ESGs just makes people pick magickers instead, making this MagicGeddon. And if that's what staff wants, fine. But let's change the docs to reflect the change in the IC culture, then. It's jarring to have half the PCs you meet be secret magickers while still attempting to RP and pretend magick is rare and frightening IC.

[MeTekillot]

Magick isn't really frightening in its current course either since all the BEEFY spell synergies got busted apart into different aspects, high magicker population or not, but that's only slightly relevant to the karma discussion.

[Heade]

Magick isn't really frightening in its current course either since all the BEEFY spell synergies got busted apart into different aspects, high magicker population or not, but that's only slightly relevant to the karma discussion.

Actually, the magicker population is incredibly relevant to the karma discussion, if karma regen is being used to limit the percentage of players playing them at any given time.

[Vex]

When doing a role call, we spent almost a month, waiting for people to regen karma, before it could really even get started. There are others, I know of, who simply will not play the game, unless it's utilizing their full karma, every time.

I do understand the reasoning, especially for people who tend to have longer lived characters. It would be rather annoying, to be sitting there at 50 days played, with your 0 karma fighter, being completely shown up by some 10 day fighter, who had the karma to bump his weapon skills, and pick a strictly superior sub, on top of that.

This is, essentially, what my point has been. Karma is pure inequity, and due to the game running the older code, which is much more hack and slashy than more modern alternatives, people with more karma, shine immediately brighter, burn longer, and tend to have many more hard code advantages, than a new player, or even a low karma player.

A 3 karma player, can double bump weapon skills, and still pick the best-in-show extended sub or magick sub, and be, out of the gate, leagues ahead of someone, who has been around for a month.

Naturally, we all know this, so it only makes sense, that more people opt to go play elsewhere waiting for their karma, or for their friends to regen karma, or they make disposable characters, they never planned to care about.

There are some exceptions, such as heavy merchants, who basically have to take 0 karma custom crafter, and enjoy virtually no benefits from skill bumps, due to crafting being super easy to max out, but mostly, if your making a pc and you don't die constantly, it just makes sense to wait and maximize your pcs potential, when the games life or death is EXTREMELY weighted by who has the biggest code advantage.

The karma system, seems to promote, mostly negative feelings, inequities, and reinforce the perceptions of staff favoritism, corruption, and that sort of thing. Whatever it was supposed to police, originally, I couldn't say, but I see no real quality difference, between the self-celebrated vets, and vets from other games, who have come, and perform just as well, so YEARS LONG WAIT to get karma enough, to play magickers when you fancy, is already going to turn off many players.

To play even a mundane, at the same level, as a three karma player, without the arduous and time consuming process (for player and staff), of request tool apps, you'd need to play for three years minimum (and I know, at least one player, who has 15 years played here, and never got max, which is ludicrous!), and additionally, wait up to 120 days between characters, if you happen to get unlucky, with an AI scrab, or gith, five hours into your 3 karma pc.

It is a system, that promotes a broad spectrum of negatives, to police problems, that aren't clear to most players, it'd seem. Rules because rules, maybe? It shouldn't be a surprise, though, if players continue to "wait it out" in order to level the field for themselves, or slant it in their favor, as much as possible.

It is the system in place, and that is the kind of behavior it promotes. That shouldn't be a surprise, to anyone.

[Eyeball]

There are others, I know of, who simply will not play the game, unless it's utilizing their full karma, every time.

I don't understand this. Do these people absolutely have to be a mage or a half-giant?

The new guilds have broadened ability, I don't really even see why having an extended subguild would make such a difference, especially given that most characters probably never reach their full potential anyhow.

A 3 karma player, can double bump weapon skills

That character is still going to be crap at parrying, shield use and such and will need to train. He or she will still potentially be a crappy rider and will be falling off mounts for a while. It's not such a big advantage.

Like Mansa noted, it would be great if some stats could be compiled.

[Brokkr]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

Yeah, I anticipated your feelings on this, Brokkr. I still think making them 1 karma across the board makes the most sense for the game. Having the 2 karma ESGs just makes people pick magickers instead, making this MagicGeddon. And if that's what staff wants, fine. But let's change the docs to reflect the change in the IC culture, then. It's jarring to have half the PCs you meet be secret magickers while still attempting to RP and pretend magick is rare and frightening IC.

My personal feelings aren't expressed in that, it is merely a statement that if you've done your reading you should have known what was coming.

I can see everyone's class and subclass in the game by simply typing "who".  I am not seeing an issue, in terms of distribution between mundane and magickal subclasses. If this is happening with half the PCs you meet, you are meeting a tiny fraction of the available characters, and are very far out the tail in terms of probability. Classes are irrelevant as we passed a milestone within the last couple of months, such that no PC main class magicker characters remain.

[Vex]

I don't understand this. Do these people absolutely have to be a mage or a half-giant?

Why play a thief, when you can play a rogue instead, I suppose? Why handicap yourself, if being patient will reap you bigger returns? Its a pretty human response, imo.

The new guilds have broadened ability, I don't really even see why having an extended subguild would make such a difference, especially given that most characters probably never reach their full potential anyhow.

The difference between thief, and rogue, is SCAN, PICK and skills you can actually use... and you can't see the difference? Or the difference between Hunter and Outdoorsman? I get it's a popular tactic on the GDB, to act obtuse, but you're really going over the top with it.

That character is still going to be crap at parrying, shield use and such and will need to train. He or she will still potentially be a crappy rider and will be falling off mounts for a while. It's not such a big advantage.

Are you comparing raising riding, shield use and parrying, to raising weapon skills? Who, exactly, do you think you're fooling, here?

[Brokkr]

Magick isn't really frightening in its current course either since all the BEEFY spell synergies got busted apart into different aspects, high magicker population or not, but that's only slightly relevant to the karma discussion.

Some spell / spell synergies are replaced with spell /skill synergies, which typically scale at a slower rate. There are still some truly frightening outcomes that can be achieved (having seen some).

[lairos]

I personally have yet to run into an issue with this, but is 120 days a really long time? Yes, it is. Sure, there are those couple of special apps you can use on top of your karma, but we all know you can have a string of really bad luck. I can go play just about any other game and I don't have to wait to play something I have earned the ability to play. I too would like to know the stats of it all, but from prior posts there are at least a few, at minimum, who won't play once their character dies until they can utilize their karma again. If that character dies a week or two down the road? We just lost that player for one to four months. If that happens to five players that is starting to be a good cut into the player base.

I don't know the full intention of staff behind the time periods and there may be a good reason behind it. Maybe it was a perceived good timeframe at first, but the timeframe has been changed once and maybe it needs more tweaking? I too would likely pick a magick sub over a 2 karma mundane sub -almost- every single time purely out of the time required for waiting. As I said, I have yet to experience it, but if I would usually have access to a concept I wanted to play, but could not play it for another 30-120 days? I think I would have to admit that I likely would wait the time than making something I didn't want to play myself. I am not saying I always need to play a mul/half-giant/mage and I haven't played a single magick sub since they came out, but simply stating that if I had a concept I wanted to play I don't know if I would try to write something up that I really didn't want to play just to fill in the gap until I could play my concept I wanted.

[Eyeball]

Are you comparing raising riding, shield use and parrying, to raising weapon skills? Who, exactly, do you think you're fooling, here?

What? I'm not *comparing* anything, I'm saying those are necessary to have an effective fighter too. You're going to have to go through the grind if you want a powerful character. Weapon skill bumps don't relieve you of that.

[Heade]

If you look back to the first announcements on Extended Subguilds, you will find they were conceived in conjunction with spendable karma.  We may have gotten used to them being available, during parts of the interim period.  However, everyone knew the plan, or should have, as it was clearly communicated.

Yeah, I anticipated your feelings on this, Brokkr. I still think making them 1 karma across the board makes the most sense for the game. Having the 2 karma ESGs just makes people pick magickers instead, making this MagicGeddon. And if that's what staff wants, fine. But let's change the docs to reflect the change in the IC culture, then. It's jarring to have half the PCs you meet be secret magickers while still attempting to RP and pretend magick is rare and frightening IC.

My personal feelings aren't expressed in that, it is merely a statement that if you've done your reading you should have known what was coming.

I can see everyone's class and subclass in the game by simply typing "who".  I am not seeing an issue, in terms of distribution between mundane and magickal subclasses. If this is happening with half the PCs you meet, you are meeting a tiny fraction of the available characters, and are very far out the tail in terms of probability. Classes are irrelevant as we passed a milestone within the last couple of months, such that no PC main class magicker characters remain.

I mean, your feelings were reflected in the decision that was reached, right? You have a big hand in that, after all.

As for the percentage of characters that are not strictly mundanes, care to share that percentage? What percentage of unique logins per month are playing touched/magick/mul/HG's? How about the average percentage, or even number of these being played at peak, when there are 40 people on?

Also, it should be considered that I said "half of the new people you meet". So, if touched/magick characters have, overall, a significantly shorter average lifespan than many of the mundane PCs that play every day, it might show as a smaller percentage of currently logged in PCs, but the fact that we keep running into them over and over IC before they die could represent that the number of PCs being CREATED(and thus, encountered IC) as touched/magick/mul/HG's could still be nearing 50% even if the number logged in doesn't. They just die faster.

The REALLY useful data would be what is being created regularly, along with playtime statistics. I know some players create mundane throwaways to play around with while waiting for karma to regen to play another magicker, so the numbers will be skewed slightly there, too.

But taking a close look at this data would be a good idea, I think.

[Derain]

I agree Brokkr we were informed but also I have to say it isn't helping the population numbers I was just offering a friendly discussion here for ideas.

[Vex]

What? I'm not *comparing* anything, I'm saying those are necessary to have an effective fighter too. You're going to have to go through the grind if you want a powerful character. Weapon skill bumps don't relieve you of that.

The skills you outline, are some of the easiest and fastest in the game to raise. They're inconsequential, in the scope of grinding a "powerful" character, as you say.

Suggesting they'll keep a weapon skill bumped fighter, from MASSIVELY out pacing a non-bumped fighter, is ridiculous, and frankly, insulting. It absolutely relieves you, of 10-20 days worth of grinding, and gives you a huge advantage, right out of the gate, that'll last pretty much indefinitely, considering so few people can max a weapon skill.

Seriously, "vet", you must be trolling.

[tapas]

A 3 karma player, can double bump weapon skills

That character is still going to be crap at parrying, shield use and such and will need to train. He or she will still potentially be a crappy rider and will be falling off mounts for a while. It's not such a big advantage.

Like Mansa noted, it would be great if some stats could be compiled.

And all of the above is a complete wash if you don't have the stats to take advantage of them.

[Eyeball]

What? I'm not *comparing* anything, I'm saying those are necessary to have an effective fighter too. You're going to have to go through the grind if you want a powerful character. Weapon skill bumps don't relieve you of that.

The skills you outline, are some of the easiest and fastest in the game to raise. They're inconsequential, in the scope of grinding a "powerful" character, as you say.

Suggesting they'll keep a weapon skill bumped fighter, from MASSIVELY out pacing a non-bumped fighter, is ridiculous, and frankly, insulting. It absolutely relieves you, of 10-20 days worth of grinding, and gives you a huge advantage, right out of the gate, that'll last pretty much indefinitely, considering so few people can max a weapon skill.

Seriously, "vet", you must be trolling.

I don't care, believe what you want.  A weapon skills bump doesn't mean you start out as a god of war, that's all there is to it. There still will be plenty of people to kick your ass and a long grind to change that. Hardly worth not playing for months just because you can't get a bump.

[Lizzie]

If they brought back full elemental guilds/classes back, and eliminated the magick subguilds/classes, and those magick guilds were all karma-locked, you could then reduce the karma requirements of the extended subclasses while still requiring "one" karma point for them. That would completely solve the perceived problem, as I'm seeing it.

Or otherwise isolate magick from everything else so you can play whatever, however, with minimal karma requirement BUT if you choose a magick option you have to deal with the wait.

[Vex]

I don't care, believe what you want.  A weapon skills bump doesn't mean you start out as a god of war, that's all there is to it. There still will be plenty of people to kick your ass and a long grind to change that. Hardly worth not playing for months just because you can't get a bump.

You start out better, you spend less time grinding, and typically will end up at a higher peak, than someone who doesn't get the bump. That is significant. You can down play it as you like, but that, as well as the other advantages of karma (magic, ext subs, etcs) are the primary reasons, people wait for karma to regenerate.

If they weren't, nobody would care about it, and threads like this, wouldn't exist.

[tapas]

[tapas]

I don't care, believe what you want.  A weapon skills bump doesn't mean you start out as a god of war, that's all there is to it. There still will be plenty of people to kick your ass and a long grind to change that. Hardly worth not playing for months just because you can't get a bump.

You start out better, you spend less time grinding, and typically will end up at a higher peak, than someone who doesn't get the bump. That is significant. You can down play it as you like, but that, as well as the other advantages of karma (magic, ext subs, etcs) are the primary reasons, people wait for karma to regenerate.

If they weren't, nobody would care about it, and threads like this, wouldn't exist.

It's not as powerful as you might think.

But you'll have to trust me on this.

[Vex]

I don't.

[Bogre]

I have posted this before; but I again would probably just ghost for a while until karma regenned to play what I wanted to play.

I'm sure in almost all cases, I would want to play an ESG. I think they're great. I see a lot of cool pairings with the new classes. But if I had a char with an ESG get accidentally scrabbed on day 5, I'm pretty sure I'd be super discouraged to get right back in the game. So I think I agree with them being dropped in karma requirement.

[mansa]

If I were to suggest another type of change...

I would put a block on the exact same karma subclass / karma race that was chosen, rather than the karmic tier.

[Lizzie]

If I were to suggest another type of change...

I would put a block on the exact same karma subclass / karma race that was chosen, rather than the karmic tier.

Or even the category of subclass. If you pick a magick subclass, then you can't play another magick subclass for awhile. If you play an extended subclass, then you can't play one of those for awhile. Same with skill bumps (is that still a thing?).

[evilcabbage]

when they allowed more than one skill bump on a weapon skill, i picked slashing weapons as a warrior in the south.

think it was a max of three points.

i received those three bumps.

i was journeyman.

that's three bumps.

[Hauwke]

Never had a weapon skill bumped, never struggled because of that.

[Miggy]

Would like to point out something else that sorta bugs me here with karma regen. Lets say you have two karma, and use it for a PC and are at 0. So, you live long enough to get one back, and are well on your way to get the second, but you die a week before that happens. So, my next character concept just uses one karma to make a new PC, I am reset to 0, and have to wait the entire time period, instead of just the week. So that long 120 days can easily turn into a LOT longer if you get unlucky and die fast.

[Heade]

Would like to point out something else that sorta bugs me here with karma regen. Lets say you have two karma, and use it for a PC and are at 0. So, you live long enough to get one back, and are well on your way to get the second, but you die a week before that happens. So, my next character concept just uses one karma to make a new PC, I am reset to 0, and have to wait the entire time period, instead of just the week. So that long 120 days can easily turn into a LOT longer if you get unlucky and die fast.

This is a good question I'd like to know the answer to, as well. I'm not sure exactly how the timers work.

[Lizzie]

I don't see the problem really. If you have 2 karma, you get set to 0 with a 2-karma character, earn 1 back and the character dies.
You now have 1 karma point to spend IF you choose to spend any at all.

You can choose 1, and be reset to 0 and spend the usual time earning back both...

Or you can choose a 0-karma character, and earn your second in the expected amount of time.

There are plenty of 0-karma options now that this shouldn't be a problem at all. There are also enough 1-karma options that it shouldn't be a problem at all. Unless you usually make characters who take the kinds of risks that get them killed within the first RL month of playing - maybe once in awhile switch it up and make the type of character who doesn't take those kinds of risks. Maybe they take different types of risks that don't result in getting killed within their first few weeks.

There's a lot of wiggle room between "take zero risks ever and live a long, boring, mind-numbing life" and "take all the risks and get PKed before 2 days played." A zero-karma character can very easily fit into the middle of that.

[Vox]

I'd prefer some statistics about player habits that would dictate a change.

How many characters get created
Have karma spent
Real life time before death
Time spent before making a new character
New character karma spent
Typical breakdown of class / subclass / race

Mmmmm data

This.

[Vex]

Or you can choose a 0-karma character, and earn your second in the expected amount of time.

Or, you can just wait and go elsewhere/do something else until it's restored, which is what some are choosing to do, which was one of the points of discussion, raised by the op.

[Lizzie]

Or you can choose a 0-karma character, and earn your second in the expected amount of time.

Or, you can just wait and go elsewhere/do something else until it's restored, which is what some are choosing to do, which was one of the points of discussion, raised by the op.

But that would be no different from when karma was first introduced. That was many years ago. The non-karma options presently are more diverse than they were when karma first came out. If you were the type of person who would refuse to play a game just because you couldn't play anything you want, any time you want, then I don't know what to tell you. Even in Monopoly, only one person gets to use the iron game piece.

[th3kaiser]

I'd have to disagree Lizzie. If I want to play a karma-gated whatever, I'm going to wait for the regen. This game is so time consuming I'm increasingly less likely to just play a throwaway I'm not super interested in during my diminishing free-time.

[Lizzie]

I'd have to disagree Lizzie. If I want to play a karma-gated whatever, I'm going to wait for the regen. This game is so time consuming I'm increasingly less likely to just play a throwaway I'm not super interested in during my diminishing free-time.

I have "x" hours per day to spend doing anything that doesn't cost money (since I'm on a limited income and budget). I can watch TV, watch movies, read books, browse the internet, do social media, and play games. I like Armageddon, and I don't like TV much. I also would prefer to be a contributor to my entertainment choices, and playing Arm allows me to contribute. If I can't play a karma class and I don't have a character at the moment, I'll roll up a non-karma class. I LIKE certain character options, but I'm not married to them. Once they got rid of full elemental magicks, I made the conscious decision that I wouldn't choose to play an elemental subguild. Instead of refusing to play, period, until they bring them back, I made the decision that I'd just enjoy the game and not obsess about the class I don't get to play anymore.

I STILL miss full elemental classes and still wish they'd bring them back, but their absence isn't going to make me leave. There's plenty of fun things about the game that are available for me to enjoy.

[Delirium]

I'm just gonna leave this here: redshirt throwaway PCs are really fun to play. The byn runner who goes down the well first, the angry spice head who (unsuccessfully) tries to shank a soldier for beating up his mum, the street sweeper who drunkenly insults Important Person B... the list goes on.

[Hauwke]

My favorite role is that one Runner who goes down the well first. Fuck yes for stupidity!

[Vex]

I'm just gonna leave this here: redshirt throwaway PCs are really fun to play.

I find most of them, to be jarring and ridiculous, as I have a difficult time imagining anyone living to be 20-30 years old, yet the second they're in the game, they turn into bumbling oafs, who die within a year, to a total lack of sense.

Tbh, I'd rather have more people consistently playing the race/class/subs that interest/excite them, and having a good time, than biding their time on Haven, or playing some obscene caricature, who blows farts towards a Templar, and runs out shouting "Tee hee hee!", until someone kills them.

I don't understand, this obsessive need to constrict and limit people, or to withhold so much, from so many, for so long, when most of the time, I don't see more than 25-30 people online, and often, much less than that.

It all seems, rather backwards and self-defeating, tbh.

[Miradus]

The game seems to be constantly fighting against the tide of options.

Imagine advertising on Mud connector:

"Look at all the options we have ... once you've played here for 10 fucking years. Maybe. And even then, once every 90 days."

[Delirium]

I'm not talking about immersion-breaking morons, I'm talking about flavor characters that bring to life the virtual PCs that nobody plays long-term. The half-mad beggars, the reeking scum of the earth sort of types that most PCs are too "special" to be.

Plenty of people live to be 20-30 in real life but end up doing hard drugs or becoming alcoholics or criminals and making dumb life choices that end up getting them jailed/killed/wrecked and that's cushy Earth life. Now import that to Zalanthas.

I am probably biased, I usually enjoy taking a break between serious characters (or, just taking a break) because I sometimes find it hard to go from one long-lived PC to another without some sort of interim piddling around.

[tapas]

This whole thing does seem kind of dumb to me. If I was at 0 karma after dying I'd just put in a specapp and bypass the process altogether.

[Delirium]

Note I am still a proponent of lowering the cost of ESGs to 1 or getting rid of the cost all together.

Karma should be/was for gating difficult/magickal roles, not mundane concepts.

[650Booger]

everybody wants to drive the ferrari and nobody wants to drive the honda?  surprise!  But i can vouch that an accord is still a really good car.

[Lizzie]

everybody wants to drive the ferrari and nobody wants to drive the honda?  surprise!  But i can vouch that an accord is still a really good car.

I want to drive the Jaguar. But when the Jag is in the shop, I really like riding my bicycle. Or even walking. It's a refreshing change.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

So, I've been choosing 0 karma subguilds since my 1 karma char died 33 days ago, and I'm still at 0.

[Heade]

So, I've been choosing 0 karma subguilds since my 1 karma char died 33 days ago, and I'm still at 0.

When was he last time you logged in to your PC? Karma regen only happens, apparently, when you actually log in to your character, so if it's been 3+ days since you've logged into a character, that would be why.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Nope. Still playing my 0 karma dude.

[Strongheart]

I am also waiting for my karma to regen! Really do wish that we wouldn't have to wait just to app in a mundane concept that requires at least one karma but it is what it is.

[Inks]

There are others, I know of, who simply will not play the game, unless it's utilizing their full karma, every time.

I don't understand this. Do these people absolutely have to be a mage or a half-giant?

The new guilds have broadened ability, I don't really even see why having an extended subguild would make such a difference, especially given that most characters probably never reach their full potential anyhow.

A 3 karma player, can double bump weapon skills

That character is still going to be crap at parrying, shield use and such and will need to train. He or she will still potentially be a crappy rider and will be falling off mounts for a while. It's not such a big advantage.

Like Mansa noted, it would be great if some stats could be compiled.

If a player only plays full 2-3 karma pcs idgaf if they stay away.

[Cind]

My 1 karma regened a good while back and its been sitting there, looking at me. I don't really know what to do with it. Play my second favorite role while my first favorite is free? I can tell you this, I am one cheap date.

[seidhr]

My best and most successful PC ever was intended to be a throwaway.

During beta testing of the new classes, someone took one of the heavy combat classes to max - human or half-elf - such that they would have wiped the floor with any other PC.

I personally played a stealth class during the class beta that was hugely successful, zero karma required.

[Iiyola]

My best and most successful PC ever was intended to be a throwaway.

Merchant who hardly merchan't, aide who hardly socialized, zero fighting skills - deflected multiple assassination attempts. To me it's the role play and the depth/development of the PC which is most important...

... but that said, it would be nice to play that one particular class some time....

[Cind]

I think it would be kind of awesome if they allowed zero-karma persons to have two or three ruk and vivadu touched a year.

Once your three free ruk touched have died though, you gotta start using karma.

People who have a stick up their ass about playing fair would, obviously, lose the ability to app from these touched slots without using their karma. If its something light enough not to warrant a week-long ban, such as stapling all the furniture in the tavern to the ceiling with metal staples, and you tell them don't do it again, and they do, just either ban them for a day or take away one of their three free slots. If they show a couple of months down the road that they've become responsible and taken the stick out of their butt, you can give it back.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It's confusing to me that people can't enjoy 0-karma classes between their karma classes. You're supposed to be playing for the story, not the class anyway. The most mundane classes can have awesome stories!

Remember, Sujaal was just a warrior.

[Cind]

Some of the coolest stories I remember were those of legacy rangers.

[valeria]

I can't see myself ever waiting on karma regen to roll up a character.  The vast majority of my characters are 1-karma extended subguilds.  Even if one of those died right away, with the way the new classes are massively more useful out of the box, I wouldn't need one of those to have fun.

It's confusing to me that people can't enjoy 0-karma classes between their karma classes. You're supposed to be playing for the story, not the class anyway. The most mundane classes can have awesome stories! . . .

From reading threads recently, I suspect that there are two kinds of people playing this game: those who can build a great story in a character with any sort of stats or skills, and those who don't want to invest in building a story in a character with less-than-good good stats and skills. 

I fall in the first camp, too.  I think we're like dwarf fortress, "Losing is fun!"  I can have a great story in a two-week character.  One of my favorites was like that.  And the other category is more "Winning is fun!"  They don't have fun unless the story is a lot longer, and they get frustrated when they die right away or to something stupid, which they think happens more if you have bad stats.  (I say "think" because I'm thinking of Zoltan's Lieutenant Raul, who was mediocre, but it didn't matter because he and a bunch of people of all kinds of stats I'm sure got nuked from orbit during that RPT he died in.  Anyway.)  But I'm not really sure that either is the "right" way, I just think we have different things we enjoy at the most basic level.

[Synthesis]

If I'm going to invest a year and a half playing a PC...what is the downside to waiting 30 days so that I can get master armorsmith instead of armorcrafter?

The mundane extended subguilds are VASTLY SUPERIOR, not in ways that let you get the powerup and win the game, but in ways that make it far less annoying for you to play it.

E.g. plain-jane subclass hunter...your skinning skill maxes at a level where you still utterly fail skinning simple shit.  You might get an actual hide 25% of the time.  This isn't annoying because you're not making 'sid.  It's annoying because any time you want a simple fucking piece of leather, you have to spamkill 10 chalton just to get a single god damn hide.  The only reason not to wait for extended sub Outdoorsman is if the subclass really isn't that important to you in terms of it being actually used for a purpose.

[Marauder Moe]

Ya, as someone who's average character lifespan is over a year, I would definitely wait for karma to pick an extended subguild.

I say only magick subclasses and karma races should drain karma.  Mundane extended subclasses should just go off your max without actually spending a point.  (Or just make them 0-karma.)

If people want mundane things to spend temporary karma points on, let us spend it on skill boosts or starting cash boosts.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But I'm not really sure that either is the "right" way, I just think we have different things we enjoy at the most basic level.

Yes, that is true, and I don't feel like either is the wrong way or the right; it just confuses me.

The mundane extended subguilds are VASTLY SUPERIOR, not in ways that let you get the powerup and win the game, but in ways that make it far less annoying for you to play it.

I suppose that's a very good point, but a throw-away character is one you don't expect to play for a year and half. Yet, as Valeria notes above, your ideals are not the wrong way to play. And I don't know; maybe they should all be made into 0 or 1 karma classes. The only things karma is really important for is magic or racial options anyway, to me.

[Synthesis]

Ya, as someone who's average character lifespan is over a year, I would definitely wait for karma to pick an extended subguild.

I say only magick subclasses and karma races should drain karma.  Mundane extended subclasses should just go off your max without actually spending a point.  (Or just make them 0-karma.)

If people want mundane things to spend temporary karma points on, let us spend it on skill boosts or starting cash boosts.

I think there should be different rules regarding karma regen for: 1) magick; 2) race; 3) extended subs; 4) skill bumps.  Limiting 'gickers is more important than limiting muls and d-elves, which in turn is more important than limiting extended subs, so there's no reason why the karma regen rules should be the same for all three categories.  Something like a straight 10 days for skill bumps, a straight 15 days for each extended-sub karma point, a straight 20 for each race karma point, and a straight 30 for each magick karma point.  I think that would be enough to keep people from playing the suicide reroll lottery.

E.g. if you have 3 karma and you spend it on a d-elf scout/krathi-guile...you get 1 karma point back at 20 days for the d-elf race point, you get another point back at 50 days for the 1st 'gicker point, and you get the last point back at 80 days for the second 'gicker point.

E.g. if you have 2 karma and you spend it on a d-elf warrior/grebber...you get 1 karma point back at 15 days for the grebber extended sub, and you get the second point back at 35 days for the d-elf race point.

E.g. if you have 2 karma and you spend it on a human infiltrator/outdoorsman...you get 1 karma point back at 15 days, and the second point back at 30 days.

E.g. if you have 3 karma and you spend it on a human fighter/linguist with 3 skill bumps...you get 1 karma point back at 10 days, another at 20, and another at 30.

Standing rule would be you get the points back in the minimum-time-order.  So you regen skill bump points first, then extended sub points, then race points, then magick points.

[Synthesis]

Personally, the only reason I haven't waited for karma regen is because I've only played 3 of the new classes (and really 1 of them doesn't count because it was a 1-day death due to me being a fucking idiot).  And honestly, to really delve the top-tier combat limits of a class, you have to survive quite a long time...so we're looking at at least 18 months or so and 3 long-term PCs just to get a general sense of where the top tier is and what the learning curve is for row 1, 2, and 3 classes.

After that, though...waiting isn't that hard.

[Nao]

One thing where I see karma spending as a problem is delves. Has there ever been a point in the last decade or so where you thought 'We have too many delves, that's getting a problem'?

I'm not sure it's codedly possible, but I would disable karma spending completely for them, and let anyone play one that has a max karma of 1, whatever the current karma level is. Basically the old karma system.

[Heade]

I still think just making all ESGs 1 karma would be a good idea. I don't really think the current system of saying "combat" abilities are "stronger" than crafting abilities is a good reason to make certain ESGs cost more. The only difference, really, is what kinds of characters the subguild would appeal to.

Core combat classes are unlikely to take the 2-cost "swordsman" ESG, and more likely to take things like cutpurse or master jewelry crafter, because those grant the skills they lack. Which means, for combat PCs, ESGs generally cost 1 karma. But, on the other hand, the heavy mercantile PCs are the ones most likely to be interested in something like "swordsman", so economic based PCs more often have to pay 2 karma for an ESG, assuming they're willing to give up custom crafting to pick a real subguild.

Basically, the current system ends up punishing less codedly powerful PCs with higher karma costs, in it's current iteration.