OK, nevermind.

[luciano]

I have realized I need to accept that Armageddon is not the right game for me.

I fell in love with the worldbuilding, the immersive roleplay, the detail and the broader concepts. I've made several tries, with different character concepts.

But I have been repeatedly put off by the fellow players who relish unkindness and cruelty for the sheer sake of unkindness and cruelty. Well.. who am I to judge? I know that's a thing for lots of people. So I have to let go of the parts I like, and accept this is not a community I want to be a part of.

This doesn't require an answer. It's just a kind of farewell message, I guess.

[oggotale]

The players relish it or the characters?

[Heade]

I have realized I need to accept that Armageddon is not the right game for me.

I fell in love with the worldbuilding, the immersive roleplay, the detail and the broader concepts. I've made several tries, with different character concepts.

But I have been repeatedly put off by the fellow players who relish unkindness and cruelty for the sheer sake of unkindness and cruelty. Well.. who am I to judge? I know that's a thing for lots of people. So I have to let go of the parts I like, and accept this is not a community I want to be a part of.

This doesn't require an answer. It's just a kind of farewell message, I guess.

Sorry to hear that you feel this way. I see you haven't had a lot of posts on the GDB. Perhaps someone here or on the discord could give you pointers and help to facilitate the sort of RP you're looking for. Zalanthas can be a harsh world, and cruelty, greed, betrayal, and murder are a big part of that. But the counterpoints to all of those exist as well.

If you decide to give it another shot and would like to discuss ways that you might be able to better pursue the type of RP you're looking for, feel free to PM me on discord and I'll be happy to chat!

[Dar]

Sorry to hear it.

It's true. The major part of the theme of the game is cruelty and harshness. Which is a unique setting, but not for everyone. Wish you the best of luck!

[Miradus]

It is to be considered that some of the most wicked, cruelest villains are just trying to give you a story. The "bad" is to just kill you outright with no interaction.

As a raider, I've often ridden up on people and made all sorts of blustering threats about killing or robbing them, but then acted satisfied with some cooked food or water out of their bag. And sometimes if I'm established I'll offer them a job getting me X or Y from the city.

If you've quit ... you've quit. I understand. But I hope other players can distinguish the difference between "IC cruelty and evil" and OOC cruelty and evil.

We're not bad. We want you to have a good time too. Most of us.

[MeTekillot]

I think this thread is about something that I did and I've got to say that threads like it are the reason I continue playing. Are you a bad enough dude that you'll get good enough at the game that people will one day make threads like this in response to things that you've done, luciano?

[Miradus]

This isn't DOTA. "Git gud scrub" is never an appropriate response.

I may be an evil warlord or henchman in the game but I don't want anyone having a bad time OOC.

[Feco]

I have realized I need to accept that Armageddon is not the right game for me.

I fell in love with the worldbuilding, the immersive roleplay, the detail and the broader concepts. I've made several tries, with different character concepts.

But I have been repeatedly put off by the fellow players who relish unkindness and cruelty for the sheer sake of unkindness and cruelty. Well.. who am I to judge? I know that's a thing for lots of people. So I have to let go of the parts I like, and accept this is not a community I want to be a part of.

This doesn't require an answer. It's just a kind of farewell message, I guess.

I hope you mean that it's the characters being unkind and cruel, and not the players/community!

Hope you give it another shot some day.

[Bogre]

I'm with Miradus, here.

No reason at all to take OOC enjoyment from someone who has a bad taste in their mouth. Can't really complain about 'Small World Syndrome' if you're actively trying to force out people willing to fill it.

---------------

For my own thoughts, I don't necessarily think the majority of the game's players are into cruelty and unkindness. Some, perhaps. And a larger proportion of -characters- might be evil or assholes. The hope is that even whilst being villainous, dangerous or whatever, they still take the IC world into account. And it is, yes, quite a harsh world. That doesn't mean there isn't space for someone who's good or empathetic in it - it's just they might have to also be kind of a little jaded. A lot of my characters, for instance, will generally be helpful towards others, even if they are spooky or shenanigan-prone.

I think finding good in the harsh desert world is one of the cool things about Arm. When characters band together, bond, etc: that's when Arm gets cool. I think that characters in clans are an excellent way to get there. But - sometimes characters do have to put in that time.

If you want, feel free to find us on the discord and ask, maybe we can help you figure out some stuff that might be more your style.

[Heade]

I think this thread is about something that I did and I've got to say that threads like it are the reason I continue playing. Are you a bad enough dude that you'll get good enough at the game that people will one day make threads like this in response to things that you've done, luciano?

Wow, dude. You need help. This sort of thing isn't a badge of honor or even notoriety. No one looks at it and thinks you're cool if you're actively happy about ruining other people's time.

[Synthesis]

I think this thread is about something that I did and I've got to say that threads like it are the reason I continue playing. Are you a bad enough dude that you'll get good enough at the game that people will one day make threads like this in response to things that you've done, luciano?

Wow, dude. You need help. This sort of thing isn't a badge of honor or even notoriety. No one looks at it and thinks you're cool if you're actively happy about ruining other people's time.

It depends on whether the other person's time was ruined by circumstances that were justified or not.  Some people aren't going to be happy losing, whether they deserved to lose or not.

[Heade]

I think this thread is about something that I did and I've got to say that threads like it are the reason I continue playing. Are you a bad enough dude that you'll get good enough at the game that people will one day make threads like this in response to things that you've done, luciano?

Wow, dude. You need help. This sort of thing isn't a badge of honor or even notoriety. No one looks at it and thinks you're cool if you're actively happy about ruining other people's time.

It depends on whether the other person's time was ruined by circumstances that were justified or not.  Some people aren't going to be happy losing, whether they deserved to lose or not.

That's not the issue, Synthesis. Regardless of whether or not the IC actions are justified, a complete lack of OOC empathy is not. We're not roleplaying here on the forums. Our behavior here reflects on us OOCly as people.

Revelling in causing someone to OOCly dislike the game, rather than trying to help them grow an appreciation of the game for what it is, isn't healthy for the community. Want to be a dick IC? Go for it! That's awesome. Want to be a dick OOCly? No thank you.

[Synthesis]

I think this thread is about something that I did and I've got to say that threads like it are the reason I continue playing. Are you a bad enough dude that you'll get good enough at the game that people will one day make threads like this in response to things that you've done, luciano?

Wow, dude. You need help. This sort of thing isn't a badge of honor or even notoriety. No one looks at it and thinks you're cool if you're actively happy about ruining other people's time.

It depends on whether the other person's time was ruined by circumstances that were justified or not.  Some people aren't going to be happy losing, whether they deserved to lose or not.

That's not the issue, Synthesis. Regardless of whether or not the IC actions are justified, a complete lack of OOC empathy is not. We're not roleplaying here on the forums. Our behavior here reflects on us OOCly as people.

Revelling in causing someone to OOCly dislike the game, rather than trying to help them grow an appreciation of the game for what it is, isn't healthy for the community. Want to be a dick IC? Go for it! That's awesome. Want to be a dick OOCly? No thank you.

I think the first post was equally dickish.  Ragequitting and saying the game would be great if it weren't for the other players?  Not exactly a polite exit.

[Bogre]

Doesn't sound like rage quit. Sounds like he tried the game and something was a turn off. I mean, it sounds like he really liked the worldbuilding and wanted to like the game.

The answer should be, "Let's help you find what you're looking for and have fun, maybe see exactly where you ran into obstacles to that," rather than flipping the virtual finger.

[Heade]

Doesn't sound like rage quit. Sounds like he tried the game and something was a turn off. I mean, it sounds like he really liked the worldbuilding and wanted to like the game.

The answer should be, "Let's help you find what you're looking for and have fun, maybe see exactly where you ran into obstacles to that," rather than flipping the virtual finger.

Pretty much my thoughts on it. Didn't sound dickish. Just sounds like maybe they didn't understand some elements of the game, and could use some help finding their niche. But with the offending player's response sounding like griefing OOCly gives them kicks, that isn't encouraging to anyone, is it?

OOC griefing has killed many games far more successful than Armageddon MUD.

[Synthesis]

I fell in love with the worldbuilding, the immersive roleplay, the detail and the broader concepts. I've made several tries, with different character concepts.

But I have been repeatedly put off by the fellow players who relish unkindness and cruelty for the sheer sake of unkindness and cruelty....So I have to let go of the parts I like, and accept this is not a community I want to be a part of.

How is that not dickish?  Instead of exploring other possibilities for their losses, they blame us for being sociopaths.

[Miradus]

Depending upon who he encountered in game ... he might not be wrong. We all know it.

But it is a roleplaying game with "factions". If I roll out of chargen with a Tuluk purple thing on my face, if I walk into a bar full of Nakis then I may expect to run into some assholes. They're roleplaying!

But the same players, when they're playing Tuluki and they see me rolling with the purple thang, they all rush right over to you and say, "Oh! Welcome, brother! His light! Let's get you in some better gear! Come hunting with us!" In fact, they'll smother the shit out of you with their love before you even get out of Morin's.

I cordially invite OP to give it another try in another location. If you want to PM me I can give you some advice. Not all concepts click in all spots at all times. The game is very, very fluid that way and even those who have been playing awhile have trouble knowing where their concept will best fit in at start.

There are some assholes, but I don't feel they represent ALL of the game community. Most of us want you to have a good time, even while we're maiming and dismembering you or plotting to steal your sid.

[Heade]

I fell in love with the worldbuilding, the immersive roleplay, the detail and the broader concepts. I've made several tries, with different character concepts.

But I have been repeatedly put off by the fellow players who relish unkindness and cruelty for the sheer sake of unkindness and cruelty....So I have to let go of the parts I like, and accept this is not a community I want to be a part of.

How is that not dickish?  Instead of exploring other possibilities for their losses, they blame us for being sociopaths.

Stating that they don't enjoy being the constant playthings of sociopaths isn't dickish unless you have some sort of complex about people not liking you treating them like shit. It's simply a preference they stated. And obviously, it's true. Some characters treat people like shit IC. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with not liking it.

Not liking it doesn't make them a dick, and a more constructive approach to building a community would be to help such players come up with ideas that might help them play in ways that minimize them being a victim all the time, without necessarily resorting to THEM having to play a sociopath.

Yes, at some point or another, almost all characters in arm end up being victims. But that doesn't mean we can't OOCly be considerate and empathize with a player that's having a tough time dealing with it.

[Synthesis]

I fell in love with the worldbuilding, the immersive roleplay, the detail and the broader concepts. I've made several tries, with different character concepts.

But I have been repeatedly put off by the fellow players who relish unkindness and cruelty for the sheer sake of unkindness and cruelty....So I have to let go of the parts I like, and accept this is not a community I want to be a part of.

How is that not dickish?  Instead of exploring other possibilities for their losses, they blame us for being sociopaths.

Stating that they don't enjoy being the constant playthings of sociopaths isn't dickish unless you have some sort of complex about people not liking you treating them like shit. It's simply a preference they stated. And obviously, it's true. Some characters treat people like shit IC. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with not liking it.

Not liking it doesn't make them a dick, and a more constructive approach to building a community would be to help such players come up with ideas that might help them play in ways that minimize them being a victim all the time, without necessarily resorting to THEM having to play a sociopath.

Yes, at some point or another, almost all characters in arm end up being victims. But that doesn't mean we can't OOCly be considerate and empathize with a player that's having a tough time dealing with it.

The dickish part is -assuming- that other players are sociopaths, instead of exploring other possibilities.  I really don't know why y'all are white-knighting for this guy.

[Miradus]

The dickish part is -assuming- that other players are sociopaths, instead of exploring other possibilities.  I really don't know why y'all are white-knighting for this guy.

Because it's a valid criticism.

Especially from the point of a newbie ...

My encouragement would be that, maybe spend a little more time and see how the big picture flows before assuming it's just cruel and harsh for no reason.

I ride up on you grebbing and I chop your head, steal your water and your awesome Kuraci gear you just bought, making you walk back to the city naked and broke. You think, "That guy's a dick!"

But then I ride back to Red Storm and hand over all the stuff I just stole from you to some Red Storm newbie and say, "Here, I got you some gear so hopefully you won't die. When you're ready, let's go back out and I'll show you where to get water."

So that Red Storm newbie thinks, "This guy is so nice!"

It's a game with factions. One man's dick is another man's best friend. Wait ... that didn't sound right. Screw it. You know what I meant.

[MeTekillot]

It really isn't a valid criticism. This post was a kneejerk to reaction to something that happened IC that they didn't like.

[Bogre]

The dickish part is -assuming- that other players are sociopaths, instead of exploring other possibilities.  I really don't know why y'all are white-knighting for this guy.

Benefit of the doubt. You don't know if he's conflating IC actions with OOC intentions, and I think it's worth hashing that out. What a newbie finds in game might make them think players are assholes, if they haven't gotten their head around the character / player divide quite yet and they realize that it's most likely just harsh characters.

[Dar]

The vibe I got from the post is that he made a solid attempt to like this game, but found the harshness and unkindness to be a turn off. That is nothing to fault him for. It is simply a matter of preference. I've been playing a lot of board games lately and there are people who actually detest non-cooperative games, but it is simply their freaking preference. They're not good, they're not bad, it is simply their choice. Hopefully later on in that player's life, he will try it again and maybe will enjoy it then.


I can honestly say I havent played a single character in my entire time, who wasnt a little bit sociopathic.

[Heade]

The dickish part is -assuming- that other players are sociopaths, instead of exploring other possibilities.  I really don't know why y'all are white-knighting for this guy.

Benefit of the doubt. You don't know if he's conflating IC actions with OOC intentions, and I think it's worth hashing that out. What a newbie finds in game might make them think players are assholes, if they haven't gotten their head around the character / player divide quite yet and they realize that it's most likely just harsh characters.

Exactly. And having a player OOCly taunt them on the GDB and claim credit for their bad time as the instant reaction to that reinforces what they thought to begin with.

And, with all due respect, here: Let's call a spade a spade. Met is a self-described sociopath with Narcissistic Personality Disorder IRL. If he's correct that the OP was in response to his actions, the OP's assertion was pretty accurate, regardless of whether it was justified IC or not.

[Dar]

The dickish part is -assuming- that other players are sociopaths, instead of exploring other possibilities.  I really don't know why y'all are white-knighting for this guy.

Benefit of the doubt. You don't know if he's conflating IC actions with OOC intentions, and I think it's worth hashing that out. What a newbie finds in game might make them think players are assholes, if they haven't gotten their head around the character / player divide quite yet and they realize that it's most likely just harsh characters.

Exactly. And having a player OOCly taunt them on the GDB and claim credit for their bad time as the instant reaction to that reinforces what they thought to begin with.

And, with all due respect, here: Let's call a spade a spade. Met is a self-described sociopath with Narcissistic Personality Disorder IRL. If he's correct that the OP was in response to his actions, the OP's assertion was pretty accurate, regardless of whether it was justified IC or not.

Nah. I doubt this is the case, Heade.  Met's post was simply a pretty unsubtle attempt to goad the player into 'manning up'. Something that could potentially work to motivate someone in a competitive game, or a sport. The "Git Gud Scrub" as Miradus mentioned. No need to read into it too negatively.

[MeTekillot]

I'm not a sociopath. Also, thank you, Dar.

[Synthesis]

I think it's universally accepted that ragequitting and the shit-talking associated with it is at -least- as poor form as gloating about making someone ragequit.  Maybe it's given a little more of a pass, though, because the ragequitter has already suffered some (at least perceived) loss.

Maybe they both are dicks.  Maybe they both need a gentle talking-to.  However, giving the ragequitter a gentle talking-to while calling the gloater a dick strikes me as an unfair approach to the situation.

[Miradus]

I wasn't going to say that, but yeah ... a spade's a spade. We have a few spades, some self-diagnosed and some not.

I just want to say that they aren't the ENTIRE playerbase.

You're going to find as normal of people here as you are on any other text mud on the internet. Hrm. That didn't come out right either.

[Heade]

I'm not a sociopath.

Without turning this into nitpicking differences, you do realize that the definitions of someone with NPD and someone defined as a Sociopath are pretty much 100% overlap, right?

They're basically synonyms, with one having fallen out of use in recent years as to not piss off the sociopaths, instead referring to them as having NPD. No one is EVER diagnosed as a sociopath these days, because the term carries some negative connotation. And the last thing you want to do, if you work with people who have these disorders, is make a sociopath feel insulted IRL.

[Miradus]

Let's not make the thread about him. Let's make it about the OP's experience, and the experience of other newbies entering into our world.

[Synthesis]

I'm not a sociopath.

Without turning this into nitpicking differences, you do realize that the definitions of someone with NPD and someone defined as a Sociopath are pretty much 100% overlap, right?

They're basically synonyms, with one having fallen out of use in recent years as to not piss off the sociopaths, instead referring to them as having NPD. No one is EVER diagnosed as a sociopath these days, because the term carries some negative connotation. And the last thing you want to do, if you work with people who have these disorders, is make a sociopath feel insulted IRL.

I think you may be confusing antisocial personality disorder with narcissistic personality disorder.

[Heade]

Let's not make the thread about him. Let's make it about the OP's experience, and the experience of other newbies entering into our world.

Yeah, I'm with you. I just think that's difficult to do without addressing the OOC behavior that might make them feel that way. No one should just ignore shitty player behavior OOCly. People should be held to account for their OOC behavior.

If that was me who did whatever this was IC, my GDB response likely would have been something like this:

"I'm sorry you felt that way about what happened. I think maybe my character had something to do with that, and appologize if it put you off, but it made perfect sense for my character to do. I hope, before you give up on the game, that you might reach out OOCly and see if you can get some guidance that might help you enjoy the game more. OOCly, there are plenty of us here to help!"

I think you may be confusing antisocial personality disorder with narcissistic personality disorder.

No, not really. Just look at the wikipedia entry for NPD. It references being used as a synonym for sociopathy in the first line or two, I think.

Also, there are plenty of other articles talking about the difference between NPD and Sociopathy, which is a very, very fine difference. All sociopaths are narcicists, but not all narcicists are sociopaths. They share identical personality traits with the exception that it's said that sociopaths are essentially the most cunning and manipulative of narcicists.

So, you want to get a Narcicist to admit to being a sociopath? Tell them: "No, you're right, sociopaths are cunning."

[Armaddict]

Honestly, with the way that some of us view the game and talk about the game, I'm not surprised that even in the discord this impression could be made.

I'll admit that I'm not the most friendly person even in OOC when it comes to discussing the 'harshness' of the game...mostly because I don't believe that being all gentle and empathetic in discussion of how violent the game can be (how violently it can -end- for a character) is entirely helpful in preparing them for that event.

I do, however, try to help when I can without it getting into my own enjoyment of the game.  But it's not really a -wrong- assessment on their part; some of us do revel in the cruelty of it all.  It's just a fine line between the enjoyment of doing it to -another person-, and the enjoyment of doing it as a full realization -of the game- in all of its glory.

In other words, it can be very hard to recognize the difference between 'They were just griefing me' and 'They were playing an utterly cruel dude and are completely unapologetic for it.'  I don't think 'well played out scenes' are the answer for the same reasons as have been discussed in a huge amount of posts on the matter (I'm only saying this to pre-empt the response).  I think people just need to accept that things actually -sting- in this game when they go poorly; not just for the character, but for the player...and so when Metekillot says those kinds of things, I don't think it's helpful in the least, but I do think it also pushes for tough skins in the playerbase.  It's not always a feel-good game, which is part of the beauty of it.  You just have to be able to handle misfortune with -some- degree of grace.

[Synthesis]

Can we all take a moment to appreciate the irony in the OP's signature line?

[RogueGunslinger]

Can we all take a moment to appreciate the irony in the OP's signature line?

Oh damn, that is funny.

[Miradus]

I feel like I been trolled now.

[Heade]

I'll admit that I'm not the most friendly person even in OOC when it comes to discussing the 'harshness' of the game...mostly because I don't believe that being all gentle and empathetic in discussion of how violent the game can be (how violently it can -end- for a character) is entirely helpful in preparing them for that event.

But this, right here where we're talking? This isn't the game.

There is no reason to act that way OOCly. Some people are dicks on discord, too.

And while I generally am against censorship of ideas, language, and discussions, I don't think that we should support or pander to people who OOCly want to taunt, torment, grief, or otherwise troll other players in an effort to make them have a bad time OOCly. So no, I don't want to see them banned or anything, but I think it should be perfectly acceptable to point out when someone is being an asshole OOCly, without people jumping to the defense of people's right to be an unfiltered jackass towards PLAYERS.

The idea that it is your responsibility, in any way, to prepare people for the harshness of the gameworld by being a dick IRL is absolutely absurd. That sounds like an excuse to be an asshole. A bad one, even.

[roughneck]

I'm pretty sure I saw this go down, because the post was very close to this time.

The thing is, the guy who likely fucked the OP over also got fucked over.

And indirectly another guy got fucked over due to the opportunities provided by the event.

And in fucking over the original guy who fucked the OP over, at least one, and maybe more PC's were pulled into the event and had some excitement.

So... ya, it's tough getting fucked over, but there's layers to the shit! And, it can make fun for a lot of people. Fun you may not see when the fucking over is happening.

Also, allies aren't worth anything if there's nobody for them to help you not be fucked over by. Armageddon being a game of fucking people over, or getting fucked over, makes friends and alliances made in Armageddon that much more deep, or tenuous/volatile, or precious.

All that being said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6vedZibAU

[Synthesis]

Way to mischaracterize what Armaddict said.  There is a vast gulf of possibility between being gentle and empathetic and being an asshole.

Nobody is pandering to griefers  .

[Heade]

Nobody is pandering to griefers  .

Oh no? What Met said is obviously taunting/griefing someone who had a bad time with the game. So let's stop defending him, then what you said right here might be true.

[roughneck]

Also.

If you quit something on the internet every you think someone is unkind or unfair.... you won't find many homes on the internet.

[Miradus]

Too true.

I think just a policy of "be what you want to see" is in order. You act like an asshole, we're going to see everyone else act like assholes.

Something I particularly work on myself. For nigh on fifty years now, my go-to reaction is asshole.

[Synthesis]

Nobody is pandering to griefers  .

Oh no? What Met said is obviously taunting/griefing someone who had a bad time with the game. So let's stop defending him, then what you said right here might be true.

Taunting and griefing are not the same thing.

And I already agreed with the possibility (likely) that Metekillot's post was a bit dickish.

My point, at the moment, is that we don't need to defend OP, either.

You seem to be mistaking disagreement with you as agreement with Metekillot, even though there are more than two possible sides of this argument.  BSAB, is what I'd probably settle on, if forced to.

[Heade]

Taunting and griefing are not the same thing.

We can agree to disagree, then.

[Synthesis]

Metekillot obviously does not play the game only to reap noob tears from GDB ragequits  .

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with taking pleasure in a W, but obviously the public gloating about it was uncalled-for.  The taunt was merely hyperbole, unless Metekillot would like to weigh in and admit that indeed he only plays for pwnage.

[Heade]

Metekillot obviously does not play the game only to reap noob tears from GDB ragequits  .

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with taking pleasure in a W, but obviously the public gloating about it was uncalled-for.  The taunt was merely hyperbole, unless Metekillot would like to weigh in and admit that indeed he only plays for pwnage.

You don't need to play a game solely to grief people in order to grief them. Liking mudsex too doesn't suddenly make someone's IC and OOC griefing not griefing any more. The reasons someone plays the game are irrelevant to the topic at hand. How we interact with each other on an OOC basis is literally the only thing I've taken issue with, here.

I think we've beat this corpse long enough.

[Synthesis]

Metekillot obviously does not play the game only to reap noob tears from GDB ragequits  .

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with taking pleasure in a W, but obviously the public gloating about it was uncalled-for.  The taunt was merely hyperbole, unless Metekillot would like to weigh in and admit that indeed he only plays for pwnage.

You don't need to play a game solely to grief people in order to grief them. Liking mudsex too doesn't suddenly make someone's IC and OOC griefing not griefing any more. The reasons someone plays the game are irrelevant to the topic at hand. How we interact with each other on an OOC basis is literally the only thing I've taken issue with, here.

I think we've beat this corpse long enough.

Are you implying some definition of griefing that isn't strictly within-game?  Because that's a novel definition.

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

[Heade]

Metekillot obviously does not play the game only to reap noob tears from GDB ragequits  .

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with taking pleasure in a W, but obviously the public gloating about it was uncalled-for.  The taunt was merely hyperbole, unless Metekillot would like to weigh in and admit that indeed he only plays for pwnage.

You don't need to play a game solely to grief people in order to grief them. Liking mudsex too doesn't suddenly make someone's IC and OOC griefing not griefing any more. The reasons someone plays the game are irrelevant to the topic at hand. How we interact with each other on an OOC basis is literally the only thing I've taken issue with, here.

I think we've beat this corpse long enough.

Are you implying some definition of griefing that isn't strictly within-game?  Because that's a novel definition.

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

Yes, I suppose I am. I think griefer/griefing can be summed up with just the second half of your posted definition, here, as I demonstrated above. That's the funny thing about language. It isn't as rigid as you'd probably prefer it to be. Lots of room for interpretation.

[MeTekillot]

The gloating was a challenge I hope gets taken up but I also like to win. I'm not going to apologize only because I'm not the one who started with casting aspersions on people's character because bad things happened to me in a game whose entire them is dealing with bad things happening to you.

[Brokkr]

Locking this thread before it reaches the end of the death spiral it is in.

Thanks for mostly likely validating OP opinion in the player base.