Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[ShaLeah]

We have posters demanding that players RP their sexuality more in public and because they're not that's why the game has taken a downward turn.

As one of the residents who played vixens ...

Has that ever happened in game on the GDB? Ever?

I don't remember such a post.


I think the general consensus is that the majority of veteran players who can't find the time to play still wish they did, that says a lot for how much we love the game.

I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed. 

We need a recruitment and retention staff member. Someone who  goes through the accounts and emails once active players.

[Malken]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Yes. Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.

[MeTekillot]

I will assail you with queer propaganda until you are assimilated.

[valeria]

In an interesting turn, I wasn't talking about IG homosexual relationships at all, though there are issues there that I've experienced.  Brokkr was correct that I was referring to this thread as the reason why I initially stopped playing.  I got upset, I talked with staff, and they were very supportive about me taking a break.

It turned into a hiatus.  In context:

Edit to add: I remembered my point on my drive home.  I'll play until something disgruntles me, really seriously disgruntles me, usually in combination with some major life-affecting RL stuff going on that puts it in perspective, and I realize that it's silly to be so upset over a game.  Then I'll quit playing for a while until the nostalgia factor kicks in and I come back.  Rinse and repeat.

In this case, the things that have happened IRL include a family member's cancer diagnosis, getting back into writing (I wrote another novel, yay!), and the fact that NaNo is coming up so I really don't have time.  In other words, the same RL stuff a lot of people have mentioned as reasons for drifting away, and the kind of stuff that is not fixable.

Why am I not sure I'll come back off this break?  Well, like I also mentioned in my original post.  Most of the features I find interesting (magick) or engaging (custom crafting) have been seriously restricted and relegated to secondary features (subguilds).  It sounds like combat has been improved and options expanded, but I am not a big combat person, I'm a social player, so there isn't excitement offsetting my disappointment with these changes.  Big stories also engage me, but the last time I personally experienced an HRPT was years ago.

The collaborative stories are a major draw.  The people in the community used to be a major draws.  For instance, I clicked into this thread only because I saw that MaurauderMoe started it and his posts are usually highly thoughtful.

But reading the thread and posting in it has highlighted what, for me, is another downside to playing, and one of the reasons why I don't particularly want to return.  To play in a clan (which is my usual go to), I'm required to log into the forums.  Where I do not fell welcome and don't want to spend my time.

I mean, I logged back into the forums because someone PM'd me, I see the thread and I'm like, I wonder if anyone else I know has said anything.  And it's gone like this.

The quality of these forums has seriously declined over the years.  Instead of discussing the possible upsides and downsides of changes, threads invariably descend into mud-slinging and insults by what seems to be the same small subset of people get threads locked.

Citations:

Man, you guys really need to dial it down with this whole getting your feelings hurt business.

Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.

Whatever seidh posted, which came off as insults masquerading as humor during my brief skim.

I miss the good ol' days of discussing changes with people like Synthesis and Lizzie, with whom I rarely agree, but where we had a discussions about ideas and about the game instead of debates about the people posting.  Since pretty much every thread derails into personal insults by a small subsection of people here, it's hard to contribute to discussion about the game while avoiding these people.  Which makes me want to avoid the source.  Which definitely contributes to me not wanting to return. 

I suppose I'd find a block feature on the forums very helpful.

[ghanima]

I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed.

I agree whole heartedly. As far as I can tell, judging both by on here, Discord, and through personal conversations, not one player agrees with the recent changes, including that Tuluk is still just sitting in limbo (destroying it completely would be preferable to the current awkwardness).

I get the impression staff dislike reversing any change, not because it isn't a worthy consideration, but because it would feel like a blow to one's ego. However it shouldn't be. You're not admitting defeat by saying ok we're going to bring back full elementalosts again and see how things go (for example). Large corporations go back and forth on company policy all the time, adjusting here and there as time goes by. Armageddon just implements changes without being willing to test it out and see how well it's received first. And I think this falls down to ego. You don't want to go back on a change because you think you'll be seen as having failed. It's not failing to try something out for a while, see that everyone dislikes it, then undoing the change. If anything, it's admirable.

Perhaps most disappointing for me in this thread is that staff have been extremely unenthusiastic in their responses. Or to put it another way, extremely predictable (not to mention defensive). Do something different for a change, guys. Seriously. I'm not ragging on you, I'm offering encouragement. You just might find the disgruntled player base praising you for a change.

[Harmless]

When people roleplay homophobic anachronistic attitudes, my feelings aren't hurt, my immersion is.

Anyway, stop blending OOC and IC attitudes. It goes both ways; OOC insensitivities and crassness (which would be any negative value applied on the basis of gender expression or sexual preference) do not belong IC, and IC crassness and harsh attitudes should not bleed onto the forums, yet they always do.

[Decameron]

This is just a reminder that we're discussing the changes we've noticed over time and our current perspective on the game.

The game can't exist without staff, and the game cannot exist without the players.

I am not picking sides and I am definitely not on staff, but every time a staff comments it seems we nit-pick that they aren't excited enough, doing enough, that their tone is off, etc. We expect to be heard, we may feel biased against, but we aren't willing to drop our own biases or listen.

Some of us are angry and some of us are tired of the same old shit, not expecting anything new. We're all passionate about this game, it's something we've sunk years of effort into. Years.

This thread isn't something that would've existed 5-10 years back. Especially with staff inputting, at all. We can learn from past mistakes, but don't let it ruin us going forward and don't assume everything is negative or bashing. This is an opportunity to hear each other out and try to understand each other's perceptive. What is expected, what should be expected. How we can do better, how we feel we've failed. If we didn't feel this game was great and could be even better, we wouldn't be here. This conversation wouldn't exist.

Take advantage of that.

[Heade]

But reading the thread and posting in it has highlighted what, for me, is another downside to playing, and one of the reasons why I don't particularly want to return.  To play in a clan (which is my usual go to), I'm required to log into the forums.  Where I do not fell welcome and don't want to spend my time.

I would hope that this would be something you could overcome. I doubt there is a single player here who feels welcomed with open arms by every other member of the community. As in real life, there are going to be people you get along with, and people you don't. In an internet community, unlike IRL, you can't separate into cliques of people you like and exclude the people you don't. Yes, it's a reminder that we live in an imperfect world, but it really shouldn't be something that bothers you so much. I'm quite certain there are posters in this very thread that despise me. I'm not bothered one iota.

If I recall correctly, from years and years ago on this forum, you and I haven't always seen eye to eye on every topic. But disagreement doesn't equal dislike, at least for me. I'm sure you're a fantastic roleplayer, and the community at large would love to have you back. I'd love to have you back, and while I'm not afraid of sharing my opinions on things without much of a filter, I sincerely hope that nothing I say, or have said causes you to feel offended or unwelcome.

[ShaLeah]

This is just a reminder that we're discussing the changes we've noticed over time and our current perspective on the game.

The game can't exist without staff, and the game cannot exist without the players.

I am not picking sides and I am definitely not on staff, but every time a staff comments it seems we nit-pick that they aren't excited enough, doing enough, that their tone is off, etc. We expect to be heard, we may feel biased against, but we aren't willing to drop our own biases or listen.

Some of us are angry and some of us are tired of the same old shit, not expecting anything new. We're all passionate about this game, it's something we've sunk years of effort into. Years.

This thread isn't something that would've existed 5-10 years back. Especially with staff inputting, at all. We can learn from past mistakes, but don't let it ruin us going forward and don't assume everything is negative or bashing. This is an opportunity to hear each other out and try to understand each other's perceptive. What is expected, what should be expected. How we can do better, how we feel we've failed. If we didn't feel this game was great and could be even better, we wouldn't be here. This conversation wouldn't exist.

Take advantage of that.

Surrrrrre... be sensible.  THAT'S helpful.

[Lizzie]

I miss the good ol' days of discussing changes with people like Synthesis and Lizzie, with whom I rarely agree, but where we had a discussions about ideas and about the game instead of debates about the people posting.  Since pretty much every thread derails into personal insults by a small subsection of people here, it's hard to contribute to discussion about the game while avoiding these people.  Which makes me want to avoid the source.  Which definitely contributes to me not wanting to return. 

I suppose I'd find a block feature on the forums very helpful.

This is why I post less and in fewer topics than I used to. It doesn't stop me from playing and since I only work part time and have no kids, have plenty of time to play. But because folks like you (and other veterans) don't play anymore, I sometimes feel like the odd man out and as a result, play less than I used to as well.

[Strongheart]

I really enjoy that you vets do stick around! What bothers me is when people speak well of the good days but then suddenly ill and from there a constant back and forth. WAS IT WORSE OR BETTER?! I'm being facetitious but I do want to make it a point that we shouldn't ride the old high when the new one is still in the works. I believe that we should all be patient and stick around! Encourage staff to be engaged along with other players and just enjoy what you can.

Personally, I love this discussion and I am looking forward to the player meeting coming up!

[Veselka]

It was better.

[Bebop]

I suspect around the time I left is when a drop began to occur.  The shadow boards came into existence.  There was an authoritarian air and a lot of people seemed to get banned or force stored.  Tuluk has closed.  A lot has happened since I've been gone.  The amount of players has dropped.  Peak hour players have dropped by a large chunk, to me, seemingly almost by half.

When I first came back I was feeling super excited, but after only going on five months I could see myself sluff off again, at least after my current PC goes away.  The cogs just don't seem to be running smoothly IG and storywise, and I suspect a lot of that is that I'm starved for interaction with key, long-term players that have a depth of understanding about how the game works and it's lore.  The sandbox feels very small, especially without Tuluk.

It also makes me sad that the staff is not going to consider re-opening Tuluk for at least half a year even though there was a very, positive, energetic response when re-opening it was brought up.  I'm not sure I can wait around a year or more.  We'll see.

I think one of the things I'm struggling with right now is that the lore feels soooo open ended now. 

Allanak is less brutal, and seems less about Templars and nobles that make you tremble in their wake.  It is seems more Tuluki with everyone relying on "shadow artist" pkills to prove their point.  Who you're playing seems to pale in comparison to how long you've been playing. 

There's really no way to escape from Allanak since Allanak is the only actual IG city the merchants in Luir's are only going to work to appease them.  Luir's is basically turning into a city-state that's growing and now has "mini" GMH merchants nobles.  It feels less like a rugged Outpost and more like a mini-city, but without all of the lore Tuluk has to offer.  I have a really hard time feeling immersed if I'm not playing with a few select people that anchor the story down and "get it." 

There's clearly an issue with player retention and I can see why, and I think it really has to be addressed or the game will cease to be.  It isn't so bad and toxic as to make me want to leave as I did before but the game feels very "luke-warm" on the verge of going cold.

I'm not saying staff is horrible, I much prefer some of them to staff I've formerly had and some I adore.  But I think the game must be taken in a different direction and we need to get serious about that.  The lore needs to come back to the forefront to create an immersive experience.

When I played Sweet Roll, Bo and Tanakara Driamusek and Buckle it was like there was a ghost in the machine.  The game worked.  Stories manifested and came to life.  And around the corner some staff would pop in and do something to further that plot.  The IG drought and riots.  Or someone popping in to the Master Irofel bard to slap my character in the face.  Or that one time I asked the Imms to help me RP a botched abortion and they accidentally instakilled me.   Or that time they chased us through the forest with halfings at our heels after a sorcerer kicked me into the Grey. 

But regardless of staff interaction, about 90% of that was just being surrounded by great players who made the world come alive.  People that got it made me a better roleplayer and pushed me and did things that made me go, wow so cool!  With Sweet Roll I couldn't stop playing.  There was one guy during the droughts that played a starving artist and used all of his starting coins to arm rioters then tried to buy his way out of the city.  There was PK in all of that, all of those characters were PK'd btw.  But their stories were such wild, RP'd rides.  That's what I'm missing.

I can say for certain Valera and Zoltan were in two of those tales.  Vet players are important.  Knowing the lore and making it come alive are important.

[Brokkr]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Confused.  Which player was I being hostile to?

If you are meaning Valeria, I empathize with how entirely shitty that pronoun thread was for them, was fairly certain that is what they were referring to, and was trying to subtly show that.

I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed. 

Which brings me to this. Often there is a desire Staff address a specific concern, or set of concerns. Often in a very particular way. In a certain time frame. If we don't, we aren't listening, or our egos are getting in the way. Or we are just spiteful, evil people.

Empathizing with the concerns (in this case estranged veterans, like Valeria) so that over time they are kept in mind as we make decisions, all the while trying to reconcile that with the direction and goals for the game world overall, is more what I find the experience to be like. It isn't necessarily the fastest approach, or one that gives warm fuzzy to folks because their idea is directly implemented so we must be responsive...but it is one that better allows me to process fragmented and often directionally contradictory concerns and address them in the context of the direction and overall goals for the game.

Long winded way of saying there are reasons you don't see us just flip flop when we've received feedback from players.

[valeria]

It's not that the good ol' days were uniformly better or something. I mean, player/staff disagreements, miscommunications, people feeling shut down and shut out, changes people don't like, etc etc etc, have always been around. Some changes have even been positive. Like, I remember a time the forums were nearly stagnant because no improvements were being made anyway because the collective breath was being held for Arm 2, and asking for anything was like screaming into the wind. The code release updates, the rollout in advance of prospective changes and requests for feedback, the ability of storytellers to engage with their clans again, I'd consider those positive changes.

It's been said, both by staff in the distant past trying to shut people down and by people pushing their positions recently, that if you don't like how things are, maybe this isn't the game for you. That's totally the case. People will depart if it isn't the game for them. That doesn't mean that changes are bad or shouldn't be made, or that staff is uniformly evil, or that vets are taking their ball and going home, or something like that. It's more like, when given the choice between two options of things to do after work, I'm going to go with the one that's more engaging and less stressful. And there are reasons the game has become less engaging and more stressful, for me, personally.

The question seemed to be, why are people who have left not engaged, and what do they struggle with when they do come back. I certainly don't have all the info or know what's in dev or anything like that, and people generally don't know what's in your brain unless you tell them. Not because I expect the game to change for me, but because I want to WANT to play again. I suspect that's the case for most of the vets who did post here.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

You can't please everyone in the community no matter what you do. People always have different ideas about the way things should be.
For example, before the class changes, it seems like everyone was saying to combine the rogue types into one class. Staff combined them
into one class, and now everyone thinks that class is OP. The fact is, some folks think the changes we've been through are good, and some
don't. Some folks want things to be the same they were ten years ago, some don't. Glad to discuss changes, past or future, but let's just
realize that no matter what direction the MUD takes, it may never be exactly as we picture it. I'm just ranting now, so I'll shut up.
Love you all, players and staff both.

[boog]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Confused.  Which player was I being hostile to?

If you are meaning Valeria, I empathize with how entirely shitty that pronoun thread was for them, was fairly certain that is what they were referring to, and was trying to subtly show that.

I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed. 

Which brings me to this. Often there is a desire Staff address a specific concern, or set of concerns. Often in a very particular way. In a certain time frame. If we don't, we aren't listening, or our egos are getting in the way. Or we are just spiteful, evil people.

Empathizing with the concerns (in this case estranged veterans, like Valeria) so that over time they are kept in mind as we make decisions, all the while trying to reconcile that with the direction and goals for the game world overall, is more what I find the experience to be like. It isn't necessarily the fastest approach, or one that gives warm fuzzy to folks because their idea is directly implemented so we must be responsive...but it is one that better allows me to process fragmented and often directionally contradictory concerns and address them in the context of the direction and overall goals for the game.

Long winded way of saying there are reasons you don't see us just flip flop when we've received feedback from players.

The way you wrote, 'Go figure,' with the way that some people perceive particular members of staff did come off as crass... apparently to a few people, according to the posts in this thread. I thought it was a little insensitive myself because I wasn't aware of the pronoun debate or what happened in that thread.

I think it's a customer service thing, again. I think you've always got to be very careful about how you type things and consider how they might be perceived, especially when you can not discern tone from text and there is a general player feeling that staff are at times hostile.

Anyway, of course, no one is ever completely happy with anything. But I think players and staff mostly want the same thing for the game and that is for it to progress and continue. If we can compromise and brainstorm up ideas on how to make that happen, I think that'd be a beautiful thing.

But there is a lot holding the game sort of hostage when it comes to changes being made due to red tape and having to have everyone weigh in and agree on an administrative level -- though I know you're well aware of that, Brokkr.

I think three things that would make me return to playing a lot would be:
1) Getting regular updates about the gameworld and what's going on, including a chronology update.
2) Closure on Tuluk or it reopening with an explanation of what happened via in game channels or out.
3) More in game rewards for people who rock leadership roles in the form of more power or resources (red robes, senior nobles -- shit to inspire and to get leaders to stick around for the long haul and to not become insipid).

[Brokkr]

Double entendre is dead.  Noted.

As a note, there are ways to advance as a templar.  Into a Ministry, and then within the Ministry.  Coded stuff that no templar has gotten since I redid them a couple of years ago.

[Namino]

As a note, there are ways to advance as a templar.  Into a Ministry, and then within the Ministry.  Coded stuff that no templar has gotten since I redid them a couple of years ago.

I'm curious as to if you diagnose this as a lack of player interest or effort in achieving that advancement, or rather instead advancement itself needs some looking at? I know at least a couple of templars who have actively made noise about going up for ministry but nothing ever came of it before they inevitably died.

I only bring this up because it's an equally common complaint I hear that things like minor merchant houses, or advancement within a GMH beyond a certain level are often stymied because the requirements are rough for people who aren't looking to turn Armageddon into a second job. Taking that in hand along with the fact that often when staff teams change it causes a massive shake up in on-going player efforts, including self promotion, I'd be curious to hear opinions on that.

If no one's 'unlocked' content that you took the time to design, and it's been a few years after its been released, isn't that cause for concern?

[Raptor_Dan]

I'm not good with communication when it's not IG, heck, maybe not even then, idk, but... I have to post, something got mentioned that made it imperative for me. I'll try and make my points clear and succint.

#1- Try Again. I feel for Zambo, and anyone else who shows up and either gets treated unfairly, or can't get involved with other players, even at the waterholes.

I try hard to include people, especially newbies. Always newbies, actually. If you've gotten shafted by idling PCs at the bar, I'm sorry I wasn't there. If you continue to try, you will be adding to the numbers of people who are.

If you've lost in your attempt to change the world, to the point of losing hope, I'm sorry. Please keep trying. Add to the numbers of those still hopeful, chiseling away at percieved walls. It's important to all of us.

#2- Get rid of the veil. I don't know exactly how to communicate this. Get rid of the veil of secrecy between staff and players, but also between IG, and OOC. Because of the rules, I've blown off dozens of friends I want to keep playing with, when they started to tell me about their PCs, or plots, or asked questions about mine. Get rid of find out IC culture, somehow, please. Make rumor boards accessible oocly, so chronology is no longer an issue.

Does all of that require a huge amount of trust? Yeah, so much.

#3- Put the story first. It's what drew everyone here, in some way. What's the story with Tulukl? If it's a good enough story that allows people to just be involved in that, the changes matter less. Some satisfaction will be achieved, this goes with everything. Was there a story behind the gicker changes? If there was, maybe the veil was too thick and I never learned it. Did it not satisfy the majority? Maybe try again.


Feel free to disregard all the minutia of my post, I feel my main points stand in a variety of ways, for both players and staff, especially when combined. You can suckl someone in, and make them an ally in most anything you want to accomplish with a good story, especially if the veil between you and them is thin and you can trust that you can expose yourself, your reasons and secrets, despite the vulnerability it creates. And if you fail... I'm sorry, please, pretty please try again.

Tl:Dr/rephrasing= Come back and don't give up hope. Explain everything, getting rid of any dividers or secrecy. Focus of the big and small details of the story you want to tell, leaving the how for later....


Ooooor this is all a crazy rant with no merit or substance. I've literally lost the ability to tell anymore.

[Riev]

If no one's 'unlocked' content that you took the time to design, and it's been a few years after its been released, isn't that cause for concern?

[crymerci]

I have literally never remembered outright homophobia or sexism in the game.

I did experience sexist treatment with a recent PC. Within a RL month I had multiple PCs who stalked/harassed/creeped on my PC. I don't wish to complain about any of these players or their characters. Any one of them, alone, would have simply made for a possibly interesting plotline. But the combined effect of this constant barrage was to make me, the player, feel so fucking dirty logging into that character that I didn't want to play her anymore.

The game is about conflict, and one of the things you do when you encounter another PC is to see what your PC has in conflict with them - are they the wrong race, from the wrong place, a mutant, etc. I'm just not convinced that in Zalanthas, gender or sexuality (including asexuality) should be a conflict axis. And it seems like it is, at least in some people's experience.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I agree with the declassification of various parts of the game. The current situation results in weird distrust,  Alex Jones-ian conspiracy theories where staff can't say anything without people accusing them of being rude or attacking them (*cough* this thread *cough*), and people assuming that certain staff members are out to get them. It's all very reminiscent of schizophrenic theorists making claims about 9/11 and misreading lack of desire to disclose as an admission of guilt.

Regardless, I think more disclosure on plans and current (and past) events would benefit everyone greatly.

[tapas]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Yes. Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.

I think we can accommodate players different from ourselves without turning it into some culture war.

Apologies to Brokkr, I might have misread them.

[boog]

Double entendre is dead.  Noted.

As a note, there are ways to advance as a templar.  Into a Ministry, and then within the Ministry.  Coded stuff that no templar has gotten since I redid them a couple of years ago.

Double entendre isn't dead. It was just sort of misplaced in a thread that seems to have very little levity. Most people here seem very serious. They want to play a game and they want to make it better. That makes it hard to discern if someone is casually joking or they're being mean spirited. That's all.

And I agree with the above posters. If there are upper levels to be reached for templars and no one has gotten to them, maybe staff need to better spell out the requirements to all applying and maybe lower the bar a touch.

We also need more "things" for nobles to achieve. When on staff, I remember a very long lived noble or two who just muddled around because they had nothing else to strive for. Maybe we should look at the Senate more. Maybe we should give them the ability to direct more of their houses policies. Maybe they should be able to become house heads: why not give these a shot if someone is worthy? It'd even take a load off of staff from having to animate or consult one another for certain plots or otherwise. If a player drives their house to shame or ruin, well, that'd be their own fault. But isn't that more optimal than players becoming frustrated and storing because they can't keep doing 'things' to receive no benefit from leading?