ReOpening Tuluk: An HRPT Idea for Growth/Interest

[Veselka]

Tuluk's an interesting writing prompt.  What's going on inside?  What do the people we'd relate to as protagonists do?  Do they have trouble escaping the place they're in now?  With the Way being what it is, why haven't stories leaked out?

I wasn't a Tuluk fan after it became a city, but it's still an important part of the Armageddon story, and to me its closure has created new intrigue.

Tuluk is not an interesting writing prompt because you are virtually allowed to go in and out of the city as you please and spend your vacation there and then come back and tell all your buddies in Allanak that you were in Tuluk for Fall break. There's nothing that prevents anyone from saying they've spent time in Tuluk, you just can't go in CODEDLY.

AFAIK, the gates are shut and no one goes in or out anymore. There was a period of time where some PCs from Tuluk could virtually visit Tuluk (?) for some unknown reason, but now? I think it's just closed.

[Bebop]

Stuff

Y'all are really too much. 

First roughneck says he never saw Tuluk as gritty.  Which is fair but based only on his experience.  So I'm like let me pull back the veil.  Here's where thrice shit got real in Tuluk.

And someone else comes in taking my experiences that actually happened and just saying well ... Well those could've happened in Nak and maybe even better. But they didn't.  And I could elaborate about why that would be unlikely but I'm not going to because some of y'all are so dead set on being contrarions it's like arguing with Evangelical Christians.

I post some fun memories, tipping my hat to Tuluk's realness and then you take those experiences and just decided some pie in the sky alternative could've happened in Allanak and it would've been better.  Like, you're missing the point of my post completely.

I was responding to the idea that Tuluk wasn't gritty.  My point was to show it was gritty when played well and I think I did that.  I don't have time for all of the hypothetical situations you guys want to dream up to try to diminish my point and the cool shit I've experienced in game.  I was making my point.  We're not even having the same conversation.  My point was not could this happen to some degree in Nak?  My point was cool shit actually happened in Tuluk with it's own Tuluki nuance.

Stop pigeonholing everything I say and get with the spirit of my post.  Thanks.

This is why posting on the GDB is so pointless.

1 - Cool shit happened in Tuluk.

2- No, it was never gritty and should've been hard to be polite instead of a bunch of sycophants.

1- Oh, it was like that.  It was gritty and a struggle to be polite when shit got real.  Here's a few of my examples that are pretty good and I look back on fondly.

2- WELL, that could have happened in Allanak, maybe even BETTER.

1 - WTF, I thought you just wanted proof of Tuluk's merits, so I'm giving you some based on real experiences.

2- Well, it all would've just been better in Allanak.  It could've happened in AlLAnAk.

1- I wasn't saying some version of it couldn't have happened in Allanak, I was trying to respond to your original point that Tuluk wasn't raw, but then when I proved it was, seems like you're just changing arguments with hypothetical instead of what actually went down.

Get off your own high horse, they said it COULD happen in Nak, not that it would happen better.

You can do the same thing, I argue better

[number13]

You can do the same thing, I argue better

One of my longest lived characters was in UnderTuluk. I don't spend a lot of worry over UT being gone, because I understand why it was closed, and I can do similar concepts in the Rinth.

Another one of my longest lived characters was a so-called Shadow Artist in Tuluk, who, over the course of his relatively long life, received exactly zero shadow artist contracts. That doesn't seem to me to be an outlier. By contrast, I could roll a pickpocket/miscreant/whatever in Allanak today and be doing sneaky stuff for a templar or southern noble tomorrow.

[MeTekillot]

Anything cool that happened in Tuluk probably happened better in Allanak already. Kryl invasion? Allanak already has spiders. Templar orders that go against gamewide docs? Chad mixed sex Allanaki templars. Literally the only thing that Tuluk did better was letting nobles practice their skills.

Magickal hate? Tuluki ranger magicker hunters were a pox on the game. Allanak does it better with exclusion and exploitation of the Gemmed. Arena games? At least people got fucking killed in Allanak's arena regularly. I guess there was a lot of betrayal in Tuluk, because everyone was always mad at everyone else and making veiled insults about whoever their latest waifu fucked without including them in the cuddle puddle.

Don't get me started on bards in Allanak actually having to be good for elves to feel bad about stealing their lute whereas in Tuluk that bard has been alive for three RL years so you have to pretend to like their terrible poetry or you get disappeared. Though I suppose that is oppressive, which is cool, it's jarring. Just like most everything else in Tuluk was with how much it fuckin sucked.

Also whatever the hell the Red Sun Commons were for with its, what, one shop and one clay pit? Tuluk's bazaar was organized decently and close to a tavern, which I found smart. The Kuraci bar being in the ass end of the city was a poor mapping choice.

Tuluk was an exercise in looking at everything Allanak did and going "let's do it different" without stopping to look at if what was going in Allanak worked well. Nobles having to be decadent, useless fops to a man (except for Tor(which is closed isn't it???)) is a poor Allanaki design choice for example, in my opinion. Templars are sick though.

[MeTekillot]

I did like Tuluki templar kung fu even though my sole experience with it was dodging a finger thing before getting 1HKO by a beefed up 5-year half-giant player Sun Legion member of whatever they were called.

[Veselka]

It's not Allanak is amazing. It's alright. It's okay. Which is why it hasn't been messed with overly much. At least people within Tuluk (and Staffing it) took some risks in trying to make it a more fun place to play.

Allanak -- You can keep your farts.

[roughneck]

I'll never get the gritty Armageddon feels from Tuluk. It was always Arm Lite. But that's just me.

One thing this thread has made me realize is how much some people still want to play there. It must be frustrating. It's a game, and I think the more we give people options to do what they like, the more people will play, within reason.

Maybe the problem with Tuluk is that it eas trying to be too big, perfect and immersive. If we let it be smaller and less perfect in detail, I think it would work better.

Either way, let these poor bastards and bastardettes eat their cake.

[Drayab]

I used to play in Tuluk almost exclusively. I would love to oppress the masses once again with my shitty poetry. That said, I'd rather have one full and hopping city than two spread thinly. ^{Maybe if we shut down the desert elf tribes??}

[Lutagar]

nevermind

[Rumor]

Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

[Heade]

Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

It would be nice if there was some public document backing this up, because right now as far as I know, the latest public document contradicts this. Historically speaking, it isn't unusual for one staff member to say one thing, and another to say something different. That's why published docs are sort of the gold standard.

[ShaLeah]

Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

It would be nice if there was some public document backing this up, because right now as far as I know, the latest public document contradicts this. Historically speaking, it isn't unusual for one staff member to say one thing, and another to say something different. That's why published docs are sort of the gold standard.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.

[Delirium]

You would think that would be clear-cut, but responses in requests et al clarified that traffic went in and out. I even escorted a few people "to" Tuluk and the gates were animated as opening long enough to let them in.

[Heade]

Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

It would be nice if there was some public document backing this up, because right now as far as I know, the latest public document contradicts this. Historically speaking, it isn't unusual for one staff member to say one thing, and another to say something different. That's why published docs are sort of the gold standard.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.

This isn't the latest news, though.

There is a GDB post from after this event stating that the gates were re-opened virtually, and that PCs could "virtually" visit Tuluk, but that it was codedly closed. As far as I know, that is the latest information we have on the status of Tuluk.

[Erythil]

Suggestions for keeping northern flavor alive:

A 'Tuluki embassy' in Allanak or Luir's with 1 or 2 sponsored roles.

A 'customs office' just outside of Tuluk where you are eternally given the Kafkaesque runaround for trying to get a Visitor's Permit, which most certainly exists, and is Most Certainly Given Out All the Time, but for some reason no one can quite seem to get one, no matter how much they bribe the locals, who are however more than happy to accept your goods at bottom-of-the-barrel prices to sell inside the city, since after all you did come all this way, didn't you?

A new Tuluki fort in some neutral zone.

A 'Crusade of the Radiant' which is actually a wave of shambling malcontents that Tuluk is getting rid of in the name of 'justice.'  See the Children's Crusade and Iranian landmine-clearing kids and similar.

[Heade]

Suggestions for keeping northern flavor alive:

A 'Tuluki embassy' in Allanak or Luir's with 1 or 2 sponsored roles.

A new Opening the Tuluki fort in some neutral zone. south of the span.

I think just these two things would help tremendously, fighting against the idea that Tuluk is a non-entity, and has no interest in keeping Luir's out of Allanaki control.

It would return a bit of Tuluki flavor to the game, give people a small amount of Tuluki-flavored support, and return a bit of faction politics to the game. I'd probably shoot for 2 sponsored roles:

1. A Tuluki Templar acting as ambassador to Luir's, and
2. a Sun Legion Sergeant(or their equivalent) operating out of the Fort, and allowed to recruit players into the Legions.

Having even a single Tuluki political character in the game, along with a military presence in the north would give us back a bit of that north/south tension, even if staff didn't want to open Tuluk proper.

Both of these roles/Sun Legion could be staffed by whoever currently staffs Luir's based stuff.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Suggestions for keeping northern flavor alive:

A 'Tuluki embassy' in Allanak or Luir's with 1 or 2 sponsored roles.

A new Opening the Tuluki fort in some neutral zone. south of the span.

I think just these two things would help tremendously, fighting against the idea that Tuluk is a non-entity, and has no interest in keeping Luir's out of Allanaki control.

It would return a bit of Tuluki flavor to the game, give people a small amount of Tuluki-flavored support, and return a bit of faction politics to the game. I'd probably shoot for 2 sponsored roles:

1. A Tuluki Templar acting as ambassador to Luir's, and
2. a Sun Legion Sergeant(or their equivalent) operating out of the Fort, and allowed to recruit players into the Legions.

Having even a single Tuluki political character in the game, along with a military presence in the north would give us back a bit of that north/south tension, even if staff didn't want to open Tuluk proper.

Both of these roles/Sun Legion could be staffed by whoever currently staffs Luir's based stuff.

I'd be alright with this idea. Definitely not in Allanak, I doubt Tek is the negotiating type, with Heade on that one. If the Legion got big enough, i.e. enough PC's, they could harass Allanak's forces in the desert, etc. Potential for fun play.

[only_plays_tribals]

+1 the fort idea. That's kick ass and much more manageable. Morins + that fort is plenty of real estate to start fostering that 'northern oppressive culture'

Imagine the sun king army patrolling around the Gol, preaching about Muk being dicks to everyone without a star, while super helpful to anyone who has one, encouraging people to act like Northie zealots again with all that snobbish pride and stuff because His Light is "protecting" them. Reporting stuff to the army and kissing ass. Drinking tea in Morins and making arrows for them and doing all that surface level North Korean shit because they don't want the army to disappear them in the grass.

Yes. Do it. Do it now.

[Lizzie]

Tuluk "satellite offices" scattered around the north:

The fort south of the span.
Morin's.
A new small location somewhere between the North Road and the volcano
Something in/near the grasslands, or due south of Tuluk between the city wall and the Red Desert. (or both)

[Cind]

I wish you could start to let people play in Tuluk--- but keep the gates closed so they can't leave.

It would actually, really be truly oppressive then, even for people who follow all the rules and smile and nod unfailingly at all the right people. It would bring an inability to move that doesn't exist in the game--- muls are the closest to this and all they really have to do is avoid the cities. They aren't 'trapped' anywhere. They aren't 'ensconced safely within the best city in the world, like a mother's warm embrace around her child' with no way of leaving.

I know that's not the point of opening the city for play, but I'm going to think about it now.

It would mean most people would have to join clans, but you know what? My last month in Tuluk was a social hell, with everyone begging me please, please join their clan. Its actually getting quite similar in Allanak, but I have options for staying out of the way now, that weren't really possible in Tuluk.

[ShaLeah]

I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

[Riev]

I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

It was open with less active players.

It was closed to allow staff to "better focus on player stories".

Having an extra 50 people might legitimize the need for it, but the staff won't open it until they are ready.

[Bebop]

I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

It was open with less active players.

It was closed to allow staff to "better focus on player stories".

Having an extra 50 people might legitimize the need for it, but the staff won't open it until they are ready.

Speaking from a retail business owner standpoint I can tell you that consolidation does not always work.

I own a record store, and you have to think about what are the core "departments" so to speak of your business.

One of our stores has been around 40 years. I wouldn't suddenly stop selling classic rock because we're low on money and turn us into an industrial music store or focus on Beyonce and Taylor Swift while isolating the guys that have been around buying from us for forty years.  Then tell them, yo if enough college students and millennials come in and buy our new stuff and we start making more money we'll be bring classic rock back.  Ya'll just come back when/if ever that happens cool?  I would expect to hear a resounding, "Nah."  And that's making it G-rated.

Doing this exact thing with Tuluk isn't the greatest idea.  This was too severe a consolidation.  You took a core part of the game, "your business" so to speak.  You took away the other half of two city-states and you're acting like we need to "earn" it back.  The opposite has been achieved where the player-base has now shrunk further for people not as interested in the game with that massive fixture taken away.  That needs to be acknowledged and Tuluk needs to be reopened.  People will migrate back naturally once that occurs and plot lines are developed.  Holding your breath "until you get more  oxygen" logic isn't going to work.  People don't need to "earn" a fun experience.  It needs to be offered and built upon.  You have people that were here for literal decades (just like one of our shops has been around for decades), many of which who preferred Tuluk and you kind of tossed them to the wind.

The other backwards logic happening is Imms are becoming more involved in every facet of the game from character creation, to leaders, to plots and so on.  This is going to increase Imm workload not decrease it.

In retail, you're playing a constant game wondering what to emphasize, what to increase, what new stuff to get in and what to get rid of all together.  But you do not get rid of one of your cornerstore pieces and isolate a massive part of your customer base and think that's going to grow you. 

You find a way to acknowledge your core, your trunk of your tree --- if you will --- and grow from that.  You might snip roots and branches to get it to the look the way you want, but you don't chop half the trunk away and expect the tree to grow instead of die.

Closing Tuluk was too massive of a consolidation and it isn't working for a lot of people.  It needs to be reopened on matter of principal but also to help numbers return and add a depth and breadth to the game.  Continuing to say we'll give it back if the game grows, is not fair and it is not a strategy that's going to work because a huge amount of players have dropped off because this area of the game isn't open and it had a very unique play style and many of the players that remain admit to feeling resigned and jarred by it's closer.

Like I'm not the biggest classic rock fan but if I come into my favorite record store and I can nab some NIN but I can't also grab some Creedence Clearwater while I'm already there I'm gonna be like hmm... I guess.  There's a thing as being too overly specialized just as there is a risk of being too overly broad.  But you can not treat half your trunk like it's a branch.  Tuluk was not a small little clan, it was an entire city state.  A host of clans and areas for the GMH as well.  It needs to be brought back sooner rather than later.

[ShaLeah]

I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

It was open with less active players.

It was closed to allow staff to "better focus on player stories".

Having an extra 50 people might legitimize the need for it, but the staff won't open it until they are ready.

I don't know that I would phrase it as such. I'd be far less diplomatic and say Tuluk sucked the life out of everyone trying to keep it alive.  We didn't have the resources to keep both places. 

I know that it's unpopular to be direct but the fact that ALLANAK was chosen is telling on what Armageddon's theme is.

The effort involved has been high.  The payoff has been mixed due to lessened player impact.  It would be fair to say that one other negative (on players and staff) would be vocal detractors of player and staff efforts in this area.

That said I think Tuluk should reopen but how do we make it as gritty as it was supposed to be?


Tuluk as it existed softened the theme and it was a haven for that side's.  That's what the loudest complaint from players has always been. When it returns I'm hopeful it won't be.

We need 50 more addicts orrrr 50 ex players to return. 

[Vex]

Is there any reason, beyond headcrabs, that it couldn't be opened without staff support?

That is to say, the gates are open, PCs can visit, and hang around, travel to and from, with the simple out of game acceptance, that staff do no support it (no indie clans, no proper clans, no sponsor roles, no support, beyond basic bug fixes, etcs etcs). It works in Red Storm, and there is, imo, a fairly sizeable portion of players, who prefer playing, without the meddling of sponsor roles, and their snowflake need to micro people. Those people already, don't join clans, or interact with those kinds of roles, so it isn't as if it'll be a drain on Allanak/Luirs clan pops.

Call it, an experiment. Players can play there, and any plots going on, are pure player, with no staff involvement, no sponsor roles, or special benefits for anyone.

If nothing else, it would at least eliminate the ooc unknown, of wtf is up, with Tuluk.