Armageddon General Discussion Board

I have an idea for re-opening Tuluk, perhaps even temporarily.

Could the staff commit to codedly re-inserting Tuluk within in 6 months time?

In that time of six months a group of experienced Tuluki players and staff could form a private committee and discuss behind the scenes how to make Tuluk more playable and flesh out the city-state documentation and status quo for it's coded return.  The players would also be chosen to thusly:

2 Templars
2 Chosen
2 Bardic Circle Representatives
6 Commoners

After Tuluk goes back in game the city could stay closed for two weeks while these characters were put into Tuluk to re-established a sort of society between themselves, flesh out that rusty Tuluki RP. 

For the Templars and Nobles, the current Merchant House PC names could be given to start speaking with the GMH about their presence in Tuluk.  After two RL weeks, the gates could be re-opened and people could app in Tuluki PCs.

Maybe put a time limit on it - say one RL year leading up to a big HRPT between Nak and Tuluk.

If it works and both cities are populated and player numbers grow or enjoy Tuluk keep it open.
If it fails and player numbers don't grow, people don't enjoy it etc, re-close Tuluk and consolidate the player base once more.

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:13:20 PM
Tuluk being open to players or not isn't the problem. The problem is that it effectively ceased to exist and went "virtual".

Freil's Rest is a viable option as a low-key play center, but what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

There are so many options for NPC antagonists that could come out of Tuluk.

Creepy gangs of bagheads, patrolling soldiers...

Basically what we need is a tangible external threat.

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:28:56 PM
Tuluk had the same exact top-heavy problem that some perceive in Allanak right now, and it definitely had the "high PK" moments, not even scratching the surface of the problems with active Lirathans and their stranglehold on plots.

Luir's outpost is basically the new northern city, with the added and arguably interesting dynamic that their "noble Houses" aka the GMH members are also permitted in and are part of the southern city's economy, and vice versa. Maybe it's time for Luir's Outpost to get a shanty town just northwest of the gates, in that open desert area. Lots of people living there... start building out a bit.

tl;dr Opening Tuluk won't solve the problem, and we've tried a lot of times to fix that dead horse. Expand Luir's and Freil's instead, and bring Tuluk back into the story as an NPC threat.

Open Tuluki antagonist roles like you had open gith roles

Quote from: MeTekillot on October 03, 2018, 01:33:40 PM
Open Tuluki antagonist roles like you had open gith roles

Yeah, this would be cool. I've played a Tuluki antagonist but without support from staff, it is difficult to do.

The official staff line was "we are not supporting any plots that involve Tuluk at this time" which, to be frank, blew chunks.

Yes, I agree, when there is a significant part of the game and lore mostly inaccessible to players that you try to pursue with one of your characters and the staff tell you that it isn't in the game plan at the time it does blow chunks.

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:31:07 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:13:20 PM
Tuluk being open to players or not isn't the problem. The problem is that it effectively ceased to exist and went "virtual".

Freil's Rest is a viable option as a low-key play center, but what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

There are so many options for NPC antagonists that could come out of Tuluk.

Creepy gangs of bagheads, patrolling soldiers...

Basically what we need is a tangible external threat.

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:28:56 PM
Tuluk had the same exact top-heavy problem that some perceive in Allanak right now, and it definitely had the "high PK" moments, not even scratching the surface of the problems with active Lirathans and their stranglehold on plots.

Luir's outpost is basically the new northern city, with the added and arguably interesting dynamic that their "noble Houses" aka the GMH members are also permitted in and are part of the southern city's economy, and vice versa. Maybe it's time for Luir's Outpost to get a shanty town just northwest of the gates, in that open desert area. Lots of people living there... start building out a bit.

tl;dr Opening Tuluk won't solve the problem, and we've tried a lot of times to fix that dead horse. Expand Luir's and Freil's instead, and bring Tuluk back into the story as an NPC threat.

The game has always had balance issues but Luir's is not Tuluk and never will be. 

Balance issues are not what I'm talking about.  I'm not saying Tuluk didn't have similar issues to Nak.  I'm saying Nak is open and Tuluk is closed. 

Also referring to GMH as their own noble houses makes me cringe and this is exactly part of reason the socio-political dynamic is going against the grain lore wise currently IG.  You've got decades of Tuluk and only a few RL years of the current dynamic.  You have literal RL decades of lore that are being awkwardly smushed to the side and social norms being re-written in real time.  The docs haven't kept up. 

Is making the GMH houses vie for power in Luirs a good idea?  Sure.  It makes sense.  That doesn't mean that it trumps bringing Tuluk back into play.

We don't need more raiders, and small fry antagonists that have Tuluk in their backstory.  We already have a ton of that IG as far as raiders go and we don't need a PVE take over either.

There is a depth that is missing that comes from real socio-political and an economic power struggle between two city states that the GMH should be in between --- not equal to.  You can tell me Luirs is the new northern city all you want but I have almost never played in Luirs.  It doesn't appeal to me.  Tuluk does and it appeals to others as well.

Luir's doesn't have the Poet's Circle or any of the feel or vibe of Tuluk.  It isn't a city-state or empire nor should it be regarded as one. I see the value in having the GMH vie for power in Luirs.  That's a great added dynamic.  But it's not a substitute for Tuluk.

A lot of people play the game for different reasons.  Like WoW.  Am I ever gonna play a panda?  No.  Do I think they're dumb.  Ya.  But there are a whole lot of other people that enjoy it.  And experimenting with an HRPT that would bring Tuluk back with some revisions for playability could be an excellent idea.

I get it, Delirium that you are anti-Tuluk and pro-Luirs.  You played one of the, if not the most notable Luir's PC in the game as Shatuka. 
However, there needs to be room for discourse regarding Tuluk because the games numbers are diminishing and a group of the playerbase that feels lost, burnout and isolated from the OOC culture of the game need to be considered.  A part of the playerbase that is not you and does not feel the same way about Tuluk and Luirs as you do.

This isn't an idea to open Tuluk permanently, this is an idea to better the game, create an HRPT overarching plot to draw people in, and then see if Tuluk can be opened from there.  If it's proven to be better for the game I don't see why it wouldn't be worth a try.  I'm literally saying, hey if this improves the game let's keep it.  The only reason I can see that we wouldn't try something that could work, with no risk to the game is an inherent bias.

I think Allanak, the city-state, needs a collective, singular major adversary. It doesn't have to be Tuluk, the other known city-state. It could be the lost city-state of Steinal, that gets discovered somehow. It could be Red Storm East, which undergoes some kind of freakish renaissance. It could be the Tablelands, after "something happens" to cause the elves and tribal humans to rise up against the city in a serious way.

Whatever way that happens, it needs for players to be able to play those adversaries, in some manner. Whether minions of staff avatars, or sponsored "boss" roles for players who already have demonstrated that they can lead, I sincerely don't care which.

But an HRPT isn't an HRPT, IMO, if it doesn't involve a A versus B, where both A & B have significant standing and significant consequences if their side loses.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 03, 2018, 02:10:36 PM
I think Allanak, the city-state, needs a collective, singular major adversary. It doesn't have to be Tuluk, the other known city-state. It could be the lost city-state of Steinal, that gets discovered somehow. It could be Red Storm East, which undergoes some kind of freakish renaissance. It could be the Tablelands, after "something happens" to cause the elves and tribal humans to rise up against the city in a serious way.

Whatever way that happens, it needs for players to be able to play those adversaries, in some manner. Whether minions of staff avatars, or sponsored "boss" roles for players who already have demonstrated that they can lead, I sincerely don't care which.

But an HRPT isn't an HRPT, IMO, if it doesn't involve a A versus B, where both A & B have significant standing and significant consequences if their side loses.

We agree on the above - but when you have a portion of players saying I don't play anymore because Tuluk is closed, or I'm struggling with immersion and continuing to play because of Tuluk's absence why not just make that adversary Tuluk and welcome old, experience players back into the fold so we can enliven the playerbase?

Allanak is bored. Its nobles can't really gain ground like chosen houses could in Tuluk -- they have their ranking and their rankings haven't much changed, whereas noble houses in Tuluk had a degree of fluidity based on a number of indicators.

Sponsored roles in Allanak have nothing really tangible to work towards so you see a lot of their ire and antagonism pointed toward commoners who can not truly provide anything like a challenge, so commoners are entertainment fodder at best.

Allanak is self hating now because it has no adversary and no social mobility, truly. There is little to strive toward and for.

Luir's is a mediocre alternative that has gone through a lot of odd change. But really no one there can provide, again, any kind of challenge or opposition to Allanak in a way that would be exciting or intriguing.

This stagnation has less to do with reopening Tuluk than it does giving that place closure and Allanak a worthy adversary and some sort of social mobility to work towards other than, "I don't like this noble so I am going to kill them because I have more money generated every two RL weeks from my NPC paymaster."

Quote from: boog on October 03, 2018, 02:16:17 PMThis stagnation has less to do with reopening Tuluk than it does giving that place closure and Allanak a worthy adversary

This part I agree with. We will agree to disagree on the rest.

Also, just noticed the mention of Reika/Shatuka... Bebop, if you think that's why I suggest Luir's as a center of play (I had issues with it, in fact, but having the GMH vie for dominance there was a huge and much needed step toward solving those issues) you are very mistaken. Plus, that was almost a decade ago. Don't attack my position just because of past characters I played. Thanks.

I dunno -- I've seen either side of the curtain and I am still just as frustrated about Tuluk as every other player seems to be. I just don't see Luir's being able to thwap Allanak hard enough. Staff support being needed for a lot of higher social rise conflict also stinks in many facets: it sucks for them that they have to do extra work and finagle schedules, it sucks for us having to wait on responses, it sucks when there is a shift in staff teams and sometimes that leads to whole player driven arcs being snipped or killed, or having to be completely redone -- so, maybe a lot of this could be solved or more streamlined if we had more capability to do on our own.

I'm not sure how that can be achieved, though.

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 02:22:03 PM

Quote from: boog on October 03, 2018, 02:16:17 PMThis stagnation has less to do with reopening Tuluk than it does giving that place closure and Allanak a worthy adversary

This part I agree with. We will agree to disagree on the rest.

Also, just noticed the mention of Reika/Shatuka... Bebop, if you think that's why I suggest Luir's as a center of play (I had issues with it, in fact, but having the GMH vie for dominance there was a huge and much needed step toward solving those issues) you are very mistaken. Plus, that was almost a decade ago. Don't attack my position just because of past characters I played. Thanks.

Not attacking, just pointing out you obviously enjoy Luirs and have a lot of experience there and are thusly going to be pro-Luirs.  But that doesn't mean everyone enjoys game play there or wants to see it replace Tuluk.

I don't want Luir's to replace Tuluk as an antagonist. If I gave off that impression, I worded things poorly.

I am saying that Luir's is a viable play center, if you want to avoid Allanak for a while.

Morin's (not Freil's Rest, oops) is slightly less so but also viable.

Tuluk, meanwhile, needs to be a part of the story, whether it is in the form of some sort of closing chapter or a re-opening.

Obviously, my vote is for a closing chapter, or perhaps a return of the Rebellion-era days, but having it be this huge gaping blind spot in the ongoing narrative of Zalanthas is an awkward and unfortunate scenario that's been ongoing for a couple years now. It's like having a major PC who was the lynchpin to crucial plots just abruptly stop playing, with no closure to their storyline and no explanation for what they're doing now, and meanwhile, nobody's stepped up to replace them. So things just awkwardly stagnate.

Though I've always been primarily a 'naki gal, I liked Tuluk.  I enjoyed playing there.  I enjoyed there being a different city with a totally different culture and socio-economic structure.  I liked that it provided Allanak with an enemy, a menace, an omni-present threat even when the two cities were on "good terms".  All that said, I do not believe we have the player base to properly people two cities. 

It's difficult a lot of times to find someone to roleplay with in Allanak as things are now.  I shudder to think what would happen to Allanak if we took twelve people to make a skeleton team to revive Tuluk. 

I don't accept that "a portion of players saying I don't play anymore because Tuluk is closed" is enough of a reason to gut Allanak to re-open it.  There's a portion of players who don't play anymore because of PK's, a portion who don't play anymore because they want to play a full magicker, a portion who don't play because text-based games are increasingly a niche market.

It would be easy enough to reopen the mantis and have them be the threat. They've been breeding and now the valley's not big enough anymore... they want to establish a new clutch and people are in the way. Instant conflict without needing layers of nobility, templars and GMH representatives.

If I wanna kill spiders mantis I'll just go on Byn contract, thanks

Quote from: MeTekillot on October 03, 2018, 03:22:10 PM
If I wanna kill spiders mantis I'll just go on Byn contract, thanks

I don't see any realistic comparison between hunting semi-mindless spiders and facing sentient mantis, especially when the latter include PCs and staff backing for PC goals.

Although even the spiders would be worth something if they were being actively directed and didn't sit near their lairs all of the time, waiting for you to come to them.

Quote from: Eyeball on October 03, 2018, 03:06:54 PM
It would be easy enough to reopen the mantis and have them be the threat. They've been breeding and now the valley's not big enough anymore... they want to establish a new clutch and people are in the way. Instant conflict without needing layers of nobility, templars and GMH representatives.

Except that some of us enjoy the sociopolitcal layers of nobility, Templars, GMH AND bards.  Which is why we miss Tuluk.

Quote from: Medena on October 03, 2018, 02:59:15 PM
It's difficult a lot of times to find someone to roleplay with in Allanak as things are now.  I shudder to think what would happen to Allanak if we took twelve people to make a skeleton team to revive Tuluk. 

I don't accept that "a portion of players saying I don't play anymore because Tuluk is closed" is enough of a reason to gut Allanak to re-open it.  There's a portion of players who don't play anymore because of PK's, a portion who don't play anymore because they want to play a full magicker, a portion who don't play because text-based games are increasingly a niche market.

This is easily solved by offering the majority of the roles to players who no longer play but are still active on the forum like boog or Malken.  This would turn non-players with experience into players again without drawing from the current pool of people.

Also HRPTs always gain interest.

And yes, we might be a niche but people that play here aren't doing it for the graphics.  They're doing it for the experience.  And that's what my pair of threads are about - creating an engaging, fun and rewarding experience like no other.

Quote from: Bebop on October 03, 2018, 03:53:28 PM

Quote from: Eyeball on October 03, 2018, 03:06:54 PM
It would be easy enough to reopen the mantis and have them be the threat. They've been breeding and now the valley's not big enough anymore... they want to establish a new clutch and people are in the way. Instant conflict without needing layers of nobility, templars and GMH representatives.

Except that some of us enjoy the sociopolitcal layers of nobility, Templars, GMH AND bards.  Which is why we miss Tuluk.

I'm not convinced that this was why the bulk of the people who left "over Tuluk closing" left over it. I am more inclined to believe that their leaving was because Tuluk being open for game play provided AN ADVERSARY TO ALLANAK that no longer existed for game play, and therefore, the major "central point of conflict" no longer existed for game play. Just like in a novel -if the protagonist constantly talks about the enemy, but you never find out who the enemy is, what about the enemy makes them the enemy, have zero engagement with the enemy, then there might as well not be an enemy. And that's a very boring story.

For that reason, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily have to be Tuluk reopening. It could be, sure. But that one, single, exclusive thing - is not necessary. SOMETHING is. But it doesn't have to be THAT thing only, and nothing else.

Quote from: Bebop on October 03, 2018, 03:55:35 PMThis is easily solved by offering the majority of the roles to players who no longer play but are still active on the forum like boog or Malken.  This would turn non-players with experience into players again without drawing from the current pool of people.

They've already gotten bored and wandered off, except for whatever reason they still social on the fringe aspects of the game like the forum and Discord.

Seems to me that trying to encourage more engagement with the game ought to start with those who are already engaged, not those who have decided to disengage. You don't try to change your game to suit those who decided they aren't interested in your game.

Quote from: Miradus on October 03, 2018, 04:31:08 PM

Quote from: Bebop on October 03, 2018, 03:55:35 PMThis is easily solved by offering the majority of the roles to players who no longer play but are still active on the forum like boog or Malken.  This would turn non-players with experience into players again without drawing from the current pool of people.

They've already gotten bored and wandered off, except for whatever reason they still social on the fringe aspects of the game like the forum and Discord.

Seems to me that trying to encourage more engagement with the game ought to start with those who are already engaged, not those who have decided to disengage. You don't try to change your game to suit those who decided they aren't interested in your game.

So that I understand correctly -

You're saying it's okay to change the game so that it distances players that are experienced and committed many hours happily here. 
It's okay to isolate them.

But it's not okay to potentially engage them again and change it back.

Changing to distance players is okay, but changing to bring them back isn't worth our time?  No wonder the game is losing players.

I don't play word games with people. I say what I mean. I don't think I hedge my words at all anywhere. I'm pretty fucking clear in my speech.

I didn't say it's okay to close Tuluk. That was a decision that predates my time here and even if I was playing then, nobody fucking asked me. Nobody asked my opinion when they gutted out all the mage classes a few weeks before I got a karma point and would have been able to play one. Nobody asked my opinion when they revamped the karma system and I lost half of the available options I had. Nobody asked my opinion on pretty much any change they've ever made here.

You're not talking about engaging players who have left. You're talking about giving specialized fun roles to ex-players over those who are actively playing the game.

That seems like the exact kind of favoritism you see blasted in all of the reviews of Armageddon out there, as well as the number one complaint which comes up repeatedly on the shadowboard.

You want special bennies? Play the fucking game.

An idea I'd recommend to engage players is telling them what's going on in the game.

Let a storyteller, a helper, or some trusted player do this if you don't want to take the game. Post a thread on the forum (since it seems that even if you quit the game you don't quit the forum) called Rumors.

Give a brief synopsis of some of the visible events going on in all the major player hubs.

Luir's
--
Bigdick-da of House Kurac has put out a call for riders to seek out gith strongholds.
The Garrison arrested a pickpocket and, per Luir's law, removed his right hand. The Guild has sworn vengeance and the Garrison is on high alert.

Allanak
---
Lord Templar Lookatme executed two citizens in the Gaj when they didn't bow fast enough.
Lady Fancypants was vomited upon in Red's by a drunken Bynner, whose head now graces a pike in front of her estate.
The third annual underpants festival is being hosted this year by House Kadius, who will award prizes to those who show up in the best underpants.

Red Storm
---
The bartender sold a jug of spiced ale to a traveler who remarked on how the village is completely devoid of activity before heading north to attend the third annual underpants festival.

Knowing what's going on in game is probably the most engaging thing you can do. And one of the easiest.

Long post, apologies in advance.  I know that only the most interested will likely read it, but hopefully there are things worth reading in it.

I was one of those who was pretty damn happy when Tuluk closed.  I can go into all my reasons for why I'm not a huge fan of Tuluk, but for pertinence here, I can say I -supported- the move not out of Nakki-fanboy syndrome or 'fuck that place', but because I had an entirely different vision for what that entailed; I saw territory and resource wars, a wild-west area for those thrill-seekers, a place to escape to, and a greater consolidation of players who engaged in city-play being in one city, resulting in deeper conflict and involvement in that city as well.  Then we more heavily emphasized tribals.  Then we cut out the legs of in-city clans' ability to independently plot.  Overall, with the decisions made, it's turned into a net loss.

However, that said, some things:

QuoteExcept that some of us enjoy the sociopolitcal layers of nobility, Templars, GMH AND bards.  Which is why we miss Tuluk.

I was going to post this in the PK thread, but it seems pertinent here as well.  Sociopolitical play is not unavailable because Tuluk is closed.  Allanak is lacking a true 'things to work towards' idea that is more clear with an adversary.  However, there is also this...thing...that was embodied by the PK post itself.

Imagine the playerbase as a sort of pyramid.  Put the 'activity' players, the 'action' players, the 'More ready to PK' players, whatever you want to label it insofar as you understand what is actually meant, on the bottom tier.  They are a lower 'order' players...that does not mean they roleplay worse, that does not mean they're less important, it means that their idea of fun is relatively self-serving, easy to access, and easier to have independently.  These people hunt because they enjoy hunting.  They fight because they like fighting.  They look to train because they like being a badass.  They, largely, like having fun that they can engage in without having to wait around on people.

Above this, you have a higher order.  Again, that is not saying better at roleplay, or more important.  There are, however, less of them in the amounts of players that we have enjoyed before, and seem to want again.  I believe this is the sociopolitical sphere that you're addressing.  They are leaders, they are manipulators, they are politickers.  This 'order' of players is, whether they realize it or not, far more dependent.  They need not just other people in the same order, they require stimuli and passing events...things that are unconsciously, by nature, provided by that lower order of player.  They react to events.  They provide goals.  They attempt to draw loyalty.  They take existing drama or goals and try to twist it to their ends.

When you see me defending PK, or mindless hunting, or fringe cases where people just say they're twinking...it's me defending the idea that within a healthy playerbase, these players will exist, and actually -must- exist in order for the higher orders to continue functioning.  Every time you try to shame, control, or 'teach' someone that being lower order is a non-contribution or negative contribution, you are working to remove your own stimuli from the game.

The sociopolitical sphere is indeed suffering.  Perhaps not to a vast degree, but a noticeable one, at least through my experiences.  As a player who hops between the two orders as a rule for my enjoyment, the fading and degradation of the lower order was readily apparent...and people still have the nerve to call those losses a net gain because of the struggles of personal interaction with a permadeath game.

I do believe that there is action needed.  Not necessarily the opening of Tuluk, but the fostering of the ability to enjoy baser levels of the game again so that Joe Schmoe who thinks combat is cool and neato can freely engage in it without everyone freaking the fuck out every time he kills someone because he thought that's how his character would act.  Opening Tuluk can work, but not if you try to make it a separatist 'place for a different playstyle' idea.  The interaction between -kinds of player- is just as important as the interaction between players;  if you're going to open something up, make sure it provides some opportunity for do-it-myself-for-fun players to engage in.  You'll draw more of them that way, and the sociopolitical will again have their player-comprised backbone to interact with.

QuoteChanging to distance players is okay, but changing to bring them back isn't worth our time?  No wonder the game is losing players.

I think his phrasing is off, or the idea itself is off, but it's close to a thought of my own I've had in assessment of things.  People keep talking about changes that can be made to draw in new players.  Changes that can be made to promote 'better play'.  Changes to attract this, to do this...and yet if those changes result in players going away, it all comes down to a gamble of what you have versus what you want.  Casinos make money reliably off of this principle; if you want to build a playerbase, start by keeping what you have pleased first.  Discuss what solutions you'd like to make.  RETRACT THINGS THAT DON'T WORK EVEN IF SOMEONE WORKED HARD ON IT.  Over the course of time, ignoring a downward trend and insisting it's something other than changes made is a strange behavior.

So yeah, Miradus...keep our players happy.  But at some point, we do need to try to create opportunities that can attract new people as well.  It's just that we have to acknowledge that big rocks of the boat that are displeasing people should be discarded.

QuoteFor that reason, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily have to be Tuluk reopening. It could be, sure. But that one, single, exclusive thing - is not necessary. SOMETHING is. But it doesn't have to be THAT thing only, and nothing else.

I think me and Lizzie have many big differences, but our perspective of the current state of the game is similar on several things as well.

QuoteIf I wanna kill spiders mantis I'll just go on Byn contract, thanks

Seems to me that you want an intelligent enemy.  I think you should consider playing antagonistic roles.  The hardships are there, the bullshit is there, but ultimately, when you're not excited by cooperative ventures against mindless, repetitive victims that seem to be inserted just for you to kill rather than figure out...the antagonist becomes very rewarding, -and- you contribute a great deal to other players whether they want to, or are able to, admit it or not.

Good post Armaddict.

One minor quibble/clarification, I don't think that drawing in new players and entertaining veteran players is mutually exclusive.

Quote from: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 05:46:17 PM
Good post Armaddict.

One minor quibble/clarification, I don't think that drawing in new players and entertaining veteran players is mutually exclusive.

Errrr, yup.  Faulty wording on my part, you are correct.

Quote from: Miradus on October 03, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
I don't play word games with people. I say what I mean. I don't think I hedge my words at all anywhere. I'm pretty fucking clear in my speech.

I didn't say it's okay to close Tuluk. That was a decision that predates my time here and even if I was playing then, nobody fucking asked me. Nobody asked my opinion when they gutted out all the mage classes a few weeks before I got a karma point and would have been able to play one. Nobody asked my opinion when they revamped the karma system and I lost half of the available options I had. Nobody asked my opinion on pretty much any change they've ever made here.

You're not talking about engaging players who have left. You're talking about giving specialized fun roles to ex-players over those who are actively playing the game.

That seems like the exact kind of favoritism you see blasted in all of the reviews of Armageddon out there, as well as the number one complaint which comes up repeatedly on the shadowboard.

You want special bennies? Play the fucking game.

Actually, I didn't say those things.  I formulated an idea and expressed it here.

You said you were concerned about drawing from the player base to reopen Tuluk.

I said perhaps we could give non-Karma roles like commoner #6 to people that were long term, good players that aren't currently playing.  This would both entice them to return and prevent us from splitting the current player base.  That's hardly favoritism especially considering after Tuluk re-opened literally anyone could play that same role.

Then you basically said we don't need to court veteran players that fell off because they made their choice not to invest in the game.
It's not really a choice when you enjoy a game for a certain portion of the game, and then they close that portion off after you've been playing the game, some of us a decade or more.

You're just slipping away from any solid solution and at this point adding to all of your other grievances to water down the point.  I don't find this productive.  I'm interested in creating a scenario that is good for players and the game and courting players that have fallen off that were an asset to the game.

What I'm getting again and again is just enjoy the game as it.

The game as it is in a player decline.

The changes to the game have not solved that problem.

The game as it is seems flat compared to five years ago.

A game is something I do for fun.  It's not something I have to grin and bare.  I have a unique perspective having played this game long term and taking a hiatus then coming back to see it in this state.  I've been very active over the past four months of my return.  I am very aware the state the game is in.  Despite playing, I miss Tuluk.  Some of our core base has been isolated as they too miss Tuluk.

And yes, there is social political interaction IG but it is falling flat without another city-state and it's having various negative effects for various reasons with various levels of imperceptibility.

The game as it is now is not how I left it.

I'm not sure which came first.  The chicken or the egg. 
Decisions that caused a player decline or there was a player decline and decisions got made.

I am pointing out however, that you can't argue with the numbers.  They are down and the game will die off.

So I'm brainstorming an idea that could create interest and plot and it is summarily getting shot down with umbrella arguments that things are just fine if you want it bad enough.

If the game can not make decisive decisions about it's brand, it's identity, how to retain players, and how to grow players the game will cease to be.  This was my attempt at coming at an idea with those things in mind and instead of talking about the actual topic people are bringing up mantis PCs.  Regardless, I would be super grateful if we could at least talk about the idea I actually had.

I play Overwatch.  They nerf Ana.  They realize they've gone to far, they buff her again.  Sometimes you have to be willing to consider undoing big choices or being aware if things go off balance and calibrating.  Sometimes that's harder to do in a game where a lot of what's happening has nothing to do with code or skills but it doesn't mean it isn't worth addressing.

Alas.  I think that'll be all from me on the GDB for awhile.   I tried.  This thread was just one tiny idea to enliven the game and create an overarching interest as well as dabble in a way to get new players and bring old ones back.

You have a fresh viewpoint on things, but you also might not have the full picture.

Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean that you have to toss up your hands and storm off. Yeah, we get feisty, but this is meant to be a dialogue. I don't think fatalistic statements about the game dying are any more helpful than sticking our heads in the sand and pretending there's nothing wrong. There's a middle point here where we can discuss ways to improve the game.

I get that you want to improve things. I do too, we all do, really. We just have different ideas about what would improve it.

I think the best ideas for improving the game will be ideas that don't involve adding to the staff's long-term workload.

edit: notice I said "improve", not "fix". There are areas of improvement but I don't want to lose sight of the fact that this game has a lot going for it, too. Let's not fixate on negatives. There are tons of positives that Armageddon has to offer.

Erm.

I didn't find myself in disagreement at all, really.  Just clarifying what I think the reopening would have to provide to make it usable as a step forward, and specifying that other things could do it as well.

The whole bit about player types was just information on why I think it should provide those things, so that it doesn't just seem like a random gripe against your sociopolitics.

Lots of excellent posts here, and I'm not going to comment on any of them.  Just going to chime in with a thought on the original idea of an HRPT idea for growth.  With all that has been not so subtly going on lately around Allanak, the salt storms, the quake, rats and whatnot, also the release notes that Ness coded a new race recently... there may already be something just beyond the horizon in the works that none of us are privy to just yet.  Something that might unite the playerbase together again in some way or another?

Just a thought  ;D

Sorry to be grumpy but my feels right now:

(https://i.imgflip.com/2jcjwk.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2jcjwk)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

Bebop I want to chime in to tell you: do not feel discouraged! We're all a nice community, I think, and your ideas are great. Ideas take time to build and you have started some valuable, powerful discussions. Some of us won't agree with them, some of us will agree with them, some of us will agree with some parts of it and some will disagree with other portions of it. We need more players like you that are willing to discuss these things.

I've heard you say you were on the verge of quitting the game and I hope that's not true, but if that were the case, I'm sorry! I think I speak in the name of at least a majority of the playerbase: (a) I wish Tuluk was open, (b) I wish PK scenes were all incredible and awesome. Things would be cool. I agree with you. I think there are parts to implementing A and B that are delicate and not as easy as I once thought they might be. I'm rambling a lot. The general gist of it is: I hope we don't lose you as a player and I think that with discussion such as these we generate desirable behaviors or at least get people thinking about what they are doing (I posted a how to make things interesting post in similar fashion as you).

Things will not change overnight. As you might have seen, each player has their own idea of how things should work: we are a community. We are a passionate community. I once left because I thought there were changes that needed to be had that I didn't see any motion towards: I explored many other games and even staffed in one other. I realized several positives in Armageddon's long-tried methods that other games do not have: oriented storytelling, consistent lore, consistent theme, quality roleplay, anything-goes consequences and a real sense of achievement. It's easy to forget that we have these awesome things in our hands (you didn't say this and I'm rambling openly again). I'm decided that the quality and intensity of roleplay that we get in Armageddon is unparallel elsewhere. Definitely not in MUSHes where I feel roleplay doesn't feel as real and as immersive as here.

After returning to Armageddon, I realized that in two years many things I thought never would change changed. I've seen some incredible changes. I also realized several things I hadn't noticed before, especially in my last roles. I don't think me writing about my awesome experience with the game might convince you about anything, but I hope you can take my invitation to:

• Be the change you want to be and lead by example even if at times it feels thankless,
• Keep these discussions going because, as much as staff is the 'top-down leaders' of the game, the game relies heavily on the influence of its players and I think YOU and ANYONE here can be the change they want to be,
• Embrace Armageddon for what it is, consider the positives, embrace the positivies, but keep the negatives in mind,
• Do not feel discouraged if sometimes things don't go well or you got a negative experience: these will happen in any other game.

I've been trying to do the above, basically because I realized something: In a game with 200 unique logins per week, one player represents a big portion of the total. Imagine if you represented 1/200 in the general elections of your country. Now consider how important your influence in the game can be if the change started with you. It might seem uphill: it is not. Think about how you got hooked into Armageddon, what you define as 'cool,' what you define as 'fun,' and you might realize that behind these notions there was a more experienced player that showed you through awesome scenes what Arm was all about.

You want PK to be less predominant? Do it and inspire others to do it. Keep the discussions going. That's a huge start. You can't expect everyone to want to play like this, but you can damn well influence people to be inspired by your awesome roleplay and ability to move things forward without having to PK. I know you have gotten me thinking about it too, and I am sure others too.

It's late. What I wrote might not make sense: if it doesn't, sorry! But I wanted to tell you my thoughts and that, despite me contesting some of your points and agreeing with some of your points, I think we can all make the game we want to make by playing the stories we want to play in the way we want them to. Maybe one day you get PKed - because we are playing a permadeath game where murder can and will happen - and creating a new character might suck, but this is Armageddon and while it has its downs (and one story sometimes has to end for another in a game where a quest for TOTAL IMMERSSION is so important), but for sure it has its up.

Let me quote the Cabinet Magazine article:

"What it comes down to in the moment of danger is the simultaneous reconciliation of three perspectives. The player is at once a gamer, who must assess probabilities, marshal reflexes, master anxieties, and sift through very swiftly scrolling text; a character, who might be courageous or cowardly, empathic or coldly pragmatic; and a writer, who for roleplaying to succeed must always supersede the other two. Sometimes, this means accepting death, a demise that is more perfect than survival. Playing Armageddon MUD, like studying philosophy, is learning how to die."

"No matter how your character expires, whether of thirst in a cave or a spear wound in the arena, the server gives notice with a single sentence: “Welcome to Armageddon!” Immediately the connection is severed. Dominated by the huge ASCII head of a mantis, the main menu descends like a curtain and unceremoniously returns you to Earth.15 The moment of ejection only confirms the game’s reality. It is not the story that has ended, but only your participation in it."

Sorry for the big blob of text and I know this doesn't have any relationship to the OP, but I hope it's not an unwelcome addition to the discussion and has some vague link to the undertone (changes we have to make).

Can we make all the player created content left on the old website available on the new one? Shitloads of examples of players crushing it with creativity wasting with nobody but those who look at the old website to appreciate.

Bebop, I'm with you on re-opening Tuluk. I think it would be good for the game, and since there have been MANY players who've said they'd return if Tuluk re-opens, I think the impact on RP in Nak will be minimal. People still RP up there. It just sucks because a huge portion of the game world is there, but not there.

I think, with as long as Tuluk has been closed to PCs, that a slight change in culture in Tuluk could be implemented with it's return, and that it would be good for the game. I'd like to see a single templar order, and have templars that are currently Lirathans be similar to red-robes, if they still exist at all. That way, you don't have bored PCs with plot-killing powers getting involved in commoner squabbles that they really ought to think is below them.

I also don't agree with Meridius, and think that sending out an all-call for old, experienced players with Karma who haven't played in the last 3-6 months as an incentive for them to come back and play would be perfectly fine. As someone who is playing right now, and who would love to get one of those roles, I wouldn't feel at all slighted if that were done for the overall good of the game, because that overall good is in my interest, too.

I would, however, add a caveat to the invitation that these players who haven't been playing awhile would be expected to play fairly regularly, if given those roles, at the risk of being force-stored otherwise.

Bro tuluk combined templar orders before it closed lmao

I was a major advocate for closing Tuluk. I wish I could say it had the affect I desired. But really, it didn't. I don't think opening it back up is going to solve any problems though. It just seems like more work for staff and a more spread-out player base. Thinner clans, and thinner leadership.

But I do think there's something to be done to meet people who love Tuluk half-way. What if there was a big war. Both sides become so decimated that there's no leadership left. Tuluk is completely destroyed and all Tuluki and Allanakis end up re-settling allanak. A new Quarter of Allanak is opened up in the ruins of the Gemmed Quarter; The Tuluki Quarter. The Templarate is abolished and all policing of the city is now mundane. There are no Gemmed. Magick is once again hated and feared and not accepted inside the city.

Leadership is a cold-war between three major factions: The old Nobles, struggling to regain power. The GMH's grabbing a new political foothold. The Commoners: rising up through sheer numbers, made up of Allanakis and Tulukis.

That sounds like a lot of work though.

RogueGunslinger's post highlights something I have been wondering as I have watched this thread progress.

If Tuluk came back changed, would it meet the desires/needs of those who want it back?  How changed could it be, and still meet those?  Which specific elements would need to stay the same, to appease those desires for "Tuluk"?

*I use "Tuluk" in quotes here, because there have been at least three different distinct phases to Tuluk that have been hugely different from one another.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 04, 2018, 11:44:14 AM
I was a major advocate for closing Tuluk. I wish I could say it had the affect I desired. But really, it didn't. I don't think opening it back up is going to solve any problems though. It just seems like more work for staff and a more spread-out player base. Thinner clans, and thinner leadership.

But I do think there's something to be done to meet people who love Tuluk half-way. What if there was a big war. Both sides become so decimated that there's no leadership left. Tuluk is completely destroyed and all Tuluki and Allanakis end up re-settling allanak. A new Quarter of Allanak is opened up in the ruins of the Gemmed Quarter; The Tuluki Quarter. The Templarate is abolished and all policing of the city is now mundane. There are no Gemmed. Magick is once again hated and feared and not accepted inside the city.

Leadership is a cold-war between three major factions: The old Nobles, struggling to regain power. The GMH's grabbing a new political foothold. The Commoners: rising up through sheer numbers, made up of Allanakis and Tulukis.

That sounds like a lot of work though.

What you describe as the end result, is basically Tuluk, pre-Rebellion.

Quote from: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 11:51:08 AM
RogueGunslinger's post highlights something I have been wondering as I have watched this thread progress.

If Tuluk came back changed, would it meet the desires/needs of those who want it back?  How changed could it be, and still meet those?  Which specific elements would need to stay the same, to appease those desires for "Tuluk"?

*I use "Tuluk" in quotes here, because there have been at least three different distinct phases to Tuluk that have been hugely different from one another.

- The subtlety of murder and espionage, the art of it. That was glorious when done right.
- The Poet's Circle and Bards.
- The culture of Tuluk, it gave a contrast to the rough, in your fast aspects of Allanak. Giving players limited options, especially new players is not ideal. Not all players enjoyed Tuluk, that is okay. Plenty others did, myself included.
- Undertuluk.
- The differences between Chosen in Tuluk and Nobility of Allanak. I enjoyed not having to worry that the Chosen Lord or Lady that I served wasn't hiring me for sexy times. That separation in castes made it feel tangible.

There are so many things that could be done to make Tuluk available and less work for Staff.

so let's unalienate tuluki players and alienate magicker players even more than they already are?

can't say i agree with that.

Do away with cities all together and force the Greater merchant houses to form their own outposts and or nomadic tribes. And let the land go lawless with exception of those inside the tribes, forts and or treaties reformed. This will funnel more people across fewer clans making them fuller and balancing more power across those clans.

If through Rp new cities and societies are built it will be through the acts and abilities of the players.

Out with the old and in with the new.

Quote from: evilcabbage on October 04, 2018, 12:55:03 PM
so let's unalienate tuluki players and alienate magicker players even more than they already are?

can't say i agree with that.

Magick is supposed to be alienated, its illegal unless you are playing a Gemmed, duh. As a new player I would prefer to see a place where magick is actually super hated cause what I have seen in Allanak is not much hatred/fear of Gemmers. From what I have heard they're also allowed to come and go in Luirs which is weird too.

Right now the prospects of playing this game where I have no place to go after losing a character where I wont run right into characters I just played with puts me off. When I started and found out I could only play in Allanak I was butthurt and it took me months to even try playing.

Quote from: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 11:51:08 AM
RogueGunslinger's post highlights something I have been wondering as I have watched this thread progress.

If Tuluk came back changed, would it meet the desires/needs of those who want it back?  How changed could it be, and still meet those?  Which specific elements would need to stay the same, to appease those desires for "Tuluk"?

*I use "Tuluk" in quotes here, because there have been at least three different distinct phases to Tuluk that have been hugely different from one another.

Great question.

Needs

-A city-state to switch to when you want to keep playing a city-based character but you don't want to stay inundated with Nak
-The Bardic Circle
-Tattoos and Ritualism
-Two city states for the GMH to be caught between
-An economy unique to Allanak with it's own special items and price differences
-A distinct, ritualistic culture
-An antagonist to Allanak
-Shadow Artist culture and tattooing
-Patronage dynamic
-A place where magick is not tolerated and looked at as a blight


Changes

-This is again where I would strongly advise forming a team of players and staff with Tuluk experience to work on this
-I think amp up the ritualism, go back to the tribal tales
-I really like that the Templarate orders were combined but continue to place a strong perspective on imagery
-Loosen how Chosen interact with commoners, let them take them to bed privately if they want
-Make Tuluk hella spooky after what it's been through, amp up that imminent threat of cultist loyalty and ghostly disappearances


Edited to add - As far as allowing Chosen to sleep with commoners just make bastards something that doesn't happen.  Even if it it happens it doesn't happen.

Whereas before Southrons were often politely tolerated make Tuluk a highly purist society.  Half elves are despised.  Southrons are interrogated and if not careful disappeared or tattooed against their way.  Give it a unique eerie harshness.

Quote from: Bebop on October 04, 2018, 01:39:21 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 11:51:08 AM
RogueGunslinger's post highlights something I have been wondering as I have watched this thread progress.

If Tuluk came back changed, would it meet the desires/needs of those who want it back?  How changed could it be, and still meet those?  Which specific elements would need to stay the same, to appease those desires for "Tuluk"?

*I use "Tuluk" in quotes here, because there have been at least three different distinct phases to Tuluk that have been hugely different from one another.

Great question.

Needs

-A city-state to switch to when you want to keep playing a city-based character but you don't want to stay inundated with Nak
-The Bardic Circle
-Tattoos and Ritualism
-Two city states for the GMH to be caught between
-An economy unique to Allanak with it's own special items and price differences
-A distinct, ritualistic culture
-An antagonist to Allanak
-Shadow Artist culture and tattooing
-Patronage dynamic
-A place where magick is not tolerated and looked at as a blight


Changes

-This is again where I would strongly advise forming a team of players and staff with Tuluk experience to work on this
-I think amp up the ritualism, go back to the tribal tales
-I really like that the Templarate orders were combined but continue to place a strong perspective on imagery
-Loosen how Chosen interact with commoners, let them take them to bed privately if they want
-Make Tuluk hella spooky after what it's been through, amp up that imminent threat of cultist loyalty and ghostly disappearances


Edited to add - As far as allowing Chosen to sleep with commoners just make bastards something that doesn't happen.  Even if it it happens it doesn't happen.

Whereas before Southrons were often politely tolerated make Tuluk a highly purist society.  Half elves are despised.  Southrons are interrogated and if not careful disappeared or tattooed against their way.  Give it a unique eerie harshness.

I agree with the vast majority of this. Bolded a part I think would be -VERY- much what I'd consider Tuluki culture. Not that nobles/templars NEVER sexy time commoners, but rather that, if they did, it would be kept on the low so hard, eliminating loose ends and rumor-mongors that it outwardly appeared to never happen.

The only part I disagree with is the last line, where I think it should be up to players to decide how they interact with other players, with documentation supporting that Southerners are generally despised and not trusted by Tuluki's.

The single change I would make is to make Lirathan-style templars, with their particular templar powers, NPC only. Get rid of the plot-killing PCs. They get bored and end up getting involved in really petty things that would be beneath them to engage in. I'd think Tuluk's "Lirathan-style" templars would be more focused on the security of the City State against their Southern counterpart, and the integrity of the Noble Houses and Templarate in Tuluk. Not focusing on petty squabbles between commoners or GMH's. But since those PCs are far more common, it just becomes impossibly difficult to give those types of Templars enough content NOT to get involved in the petty shit.

They did get rid of those bro.

Quote from: Veselka on October 04, 2018, 03:47:27 PM
They did get rid of those bro.

Cool, you're the second person to say that, both calling me bro for some reason bro.

I was on a break from the game pre-Tuluk closure and haven't seen any documentation stating that happened, despite reading up on it a lot. So I don't know if it was 2 weeks before Tuluk closed, or what. Combining into 1 Templar order doesn't tell me that the powers that Lirathans previously had are no longer powers of PC templars in that 1 remaining order. To me, that just sounds like 1 order that contains templars of both varieties, who are no longer bound by the male/female thing, but may posess w/e powers they previously would have posessed. If that's incorrect, and the powers that Lirathans had were taken away from PC templars, then Great!

I would love it if Tuluk was revamped and reopened. My biggest issue was the lack of actual personality of the city (other than fluffy-bunny-lumberjack-easy-mode). To me it suffered from a quickly unraveling and frequently copy-paste collage of varying traits that taken separately are pretty cool but all together just made a bland mush.

A central vision behind how the city functions in the context of the greater story of the world is needed, before it just gets reopened. But I think we should definitely make it a goal to re-open.. as we should make it a goal to bring back full mages and undead :P

Quote from: Vox on October 04, 2018, 04:13:05 PM
I would love it if Tuluk was revamped and reopened. My biggest issue was the lack of actual personality of the city (other than fluffy-bunny-lumberjack-easy-mode). To me it suffered from a quickly unraveling and frequently copy-paste collage of varying traits that taken separately are pretty cool but all together just made a bland mush.

A central vision behind how the city functions in the context of the greater story of the world is needed, before it just gets reopened. But I think we should definitely make it a goal to re-open.. as we should make it a goal to bring back full mages and undead :P

Not liking the outward personality that a culture projects doesn't make it fluffy-bunny-lumberjack-easy-mode. It makes a culture that is outwardly polite, with subtlety and behind the scenes plotting, so people are always "nice", smiling at you right up until you die from that dagger in your back. I think that's an amazingly cultured type of society, and it's a stark contrast to the rude, in-your-face harshness that Nak often projects. Then you have Luir's and tribals out there to mix it up. I don't see anything wrong with a place trying exceptionally hard to project just how "civilized" they are. It's an excellent way to differentiate oneself from your enemies, and justify your animousity to your people. The more different your societies, the easier it is to keep people prepared to fight against those "others".

It completely makes sense IC, as it was. Tuluki culture, as documented, was great, even if not all players represented it well. Pull the documentation off the old site and make it easier for players to find. That's really all that needs to be done to "revamp" the culture. Tuluk existed and thrived prior to moving to the new website. I feel like, once they moved to the new website and DIDN'T transfer lots of documentation, new players found themselves at a loss in a LOT of ways, not just with Tuluk. Ways where, when they started playing in Tuluk and it SEEMED like everyone was just nicer there, maybe they adopted that persona themselves, without the underlying grit, because they never got access to the Docs telling them what it was supposed to be like. I think that barrier to documentation(being on the old site) has caused no end of problems for multiple things, some of which have subsequently been removed from PC access since it has occurred. I -really-, REALLY want players to have easier access to all that old documentation again without having to discover a completely different website that isn't even directly or easily linked to by our main site.

/end rant

Sorry...I'm just REALLY frustrated at all the negative things I've seen happen over the last 8 years or so that can logically be attributed to a lack of easy player access to all that old documentation, where things worked wonderfully for many years prior to them losing easy access to said documentation.

Another idea I have is that before the gates closed it looks like the Tenneshi and Winrothl went HAM. 

I like this change.  So make water more pricey in Tuluk.  None of this half price of the water in Nak cheese.  But water is more plentiful in the North?  Yah.  And the thing about Tennesh is they don't effing care.  Because they hold a monopoly.  So, yeah make it so people can still forage and greb and lumberjack but if they want water, they're going to be paying more.  But that might cause people to beg and make the streets look cluttered and dingy like Nak.  Except we can't have that so anyone that can not provide for themselves finds "rest" in Muk's Eternal light etc.  There's so many ways to play it that are just as edgy and thematic as Nak with a different angle to it.

There's so much you could do with going back to Muk being the Great Uniter.  The pride Tuluki's have after over throwing the Occupation.  Their desire for vengeance.  A purist mindset focused on a perfectionist level of breeding and art.  Bloodless deaths and ritualistic tribal sort of base underlying it all when blood is spilled, and lives taken.

I played a Driamusek bard once that I based of off Japanese geisha culture which has a lot to do with hierarchy and ritualism and it was a lot of fun.  I have so many ideas.  I wanna halp.

Have Tuluk be the eptiome (at surface level) of collectivist society.

QuoteCollectivism is a political theory associated with communism. More broadly, it is the idea that people should prioritize the good of society over the welfare of the individual.

Collectivism — so closely related to the word collection — has to do with political theories that put the group before the individual. In a collectivist system, power should be in the hands of the people as a whole, not in the hands of a few powerful folks. Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. Ideally, in a collectivist society, decisions benefit all the people. This is a difficult idea to put into practice, as seen in the attempted collectivist society of Soviet communism.

It's like ew you're wearing jozhal, that's a Southron material.  Why aren't you buying local?  Why aren't you supporting the city's economy.  Anything remotely southern should be looked down upon.  Tuluk should feel very purist and insular, obsessively and dangerously so.

Before part of the problem is it was to fluffy.  The thing about subtly is it's subtle.  I do think subtly would still be a thing, it's so integral to Tuluki culture but hike up water prices, and give some solid documentation the emphasizes the cultist mindset of integrate or be disappeared.  This is Soviet Russia, you are being watched, everyone is so nice - but you can't actually trust anyone.  That's what was cool about Tuluk, but I think with some tweaks it could be made more so.

Also important is to make it a challenge for Southrons to just "hang out" in Tuluk and enjoy the cheap silks and wood.  If you're a Southron or a half breed you should stand out like a sore thumb.  No accepting half-elves into the legion and shit anymore.  No more cheap water.  No more Southrons leeching off the system.  Going to Tuluk as a Southron should feel risky as all hell.

Where are all the bagman raids? The machine needs fresh meat.

Also I'm holding out hope that Tuluk is reopened as a dystopian nightmare where horrors roam the streets and survivors huddle in their dwellings. It would not be a starting location. And it would be as about as dangerous as the silt sea to traverse but players might come to loot and scavenge or to battle The Nightmare On The Planar Crossroads.

If nothing else, a staff supported clan similar to the one in Redstorm would be nice.

Quote from: Bebop on October 04, 2018, 08:20:18 PM
Another idea I have is that before the gates closed it looks like the Tenneshi and Winrothl went HAM. 

I like this change.  So make water more pricey in Tuluk.  None of this half price of the water in Nak cheese.  But water is more plentiful in the North?  Yah.  And the thing about Tennesh is they don't effing care.  Because they hold a monopoly.  So, yeah make it so people can still forage and greb and lumberjack but if they want water, they're going to be paying more.  But that might cause people to beg and make the streets look cluttered and dingy like Nak.  Except we can't have that so anyone that can not provide for themselves finds "rest" in Muk's Eternal light etc.  There's so many ways to play it that are just as edgy and thematic as Nak with a different angle to it.

There's so much you could do with going back to Muk being the Great Uniter.  The pride Tuluki's have after over throwing the Occupation.  Their desire for vengeance.  A purist mindset focused on a perfectionist level of breeding and art.  Bloodless deaths and ritualistic tribal sort of base underlying it all when blood is spilled, and lives taken.

I played a Driamusek bard once that I based of off Japanese geisha culture which has a lot to do with hierarchy and ritualism and it was a lot of fun.  I have so many ideas.  I wanna halp.

Have Tuluk be the eptiome (at surface level) of collectivist society.

QuoteCollectivism is a political theory associated with communism. More broadly, it is the idea that people should prioritize the good of society over the welfare of the individual.

Collectivism — so closely related to the word collection — has to do with political theories that put the group before the individual. In a collectivist system, power should be in the hands of the people as a whole, not in the hands of a few powerful folks. Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. Ideally, in a collectivist society, decisions benefit all the people. This is a difficult idea to put into practice, as seen in the attempted collectivist society of Soviet communism.

It's like ew you're wearing jozhal, that's a Southron material.  Why aren't you buying local?  Why aren't you supporting the city's economy.  Anything remotely southern should be looked down upon.  Tuluk should feel very purist and insular, obsessively and dangerously so.

Before part of the problem is it was to fluffy.  The thing about subtly is it's subtle.  I do think subtly would still be a thing, it's so integral to Tuluki culture but hike up water prices, and give some solid documentation the emphasizes the cultist mindset of integrate or be disappeared.  This is Soviet Russia, you are being watched, everyone is so nice - but you can't actually trust anyone.  That's what was cool about Tuluk, but I think with some tweaks it could be made more so.

Also important is to make it a challenge for Southrons to just "hang out" in Tuluk and enjoy the cheap silks and wood.  If you're a Southron or a half breed you should stand out like a sore thumb.  No accepting half-elves into the legion and shit anymore.  No more cheap water.  No more Southrons leeching off the system.  Going to Tuluk as a Southron should feel risky as all hell.

What's the point of potentially expanding the playerbase if they occupy two mutually exclusive groups?

The other group of players that loved Tuluk and quit is -already- playing another game.  Bringing them back to play Armageddon: Tuluk would be utterly pointless.

Quote from: Synthesis on October 05, 2018, 01:13:16 AM
What's the point of potentially expanding the playerbase if they occupy two mutually exclusive groups?

The other group of players that loved Tuluk and quit is -already- playing another game.  Bringing them back to play Armageddon: Tuluk would be utterly pointless.

Sorta on the fence here, whether I agree with you or not. Relations between southerns and tuluki's, in my opinion, should be tense, but not non-existent.

In that way, there is a separation, but not exactly exclusivity. I like the idea of them considering themselves general adversaries, though. It gives allanak an outside threat instead of having almost all conflict be internal. I want internal AND external conflict.

MeTekillot Is Quitting NicotineToday at 7:13 AM
@AdamBlue no
If we got full subguild elementalists i would want them to have to do weekly character reports
and have to be heavily involved in magick shit instead of just being power rangers


MeTekillot Is Quitting NicotineToday at 7:15 AM
no i want them to be magickal power rangers
not the local badass mercenary
i want them enslaved to the will of their elemental aspect the same way gemmed and templars are
and if your element severs its connection to you because you don't do what it says you fucking die
maybe something that subguild elementalists could strive towards
the elements should extend tendrils of elemental power offer to their touched and magickers the same way dragonthralls get shit
but like it's something you'd have to pursue after twinking out your current spells and sending in a couple of IC years of power seeking and shit
staff call for apps for 8-12 magickers who lead a plot to destroy tuluk
then they turn on each other and the northlands becomes a verdant death trap of occasional guerilla attacks by elementalists

It's a bit of a catch 22. Do I want Tuluk to be reopened? Of course. But it was closed for several reasons that haven't changed, and if anything, have developed into larger issues.

1. Tuluk has been closed for IC reasons, not OOC reasons. This seemed intended to allow for the ability to return Tuluk into play without it being OOCly retconned or actually destroyed beyond belief IG. But it has served as a white elephant in the game world for so long, that re-opening it will require some careful consideration. A lot of questions will be asked, and would need answers, as to what happened leading up to its closure, why some people were allowed to virtually enter Tuluk and others were not, and what the circumstances of its gates reopening would be. That's obvious enough, but it is actual work for Staff and not to be taken lightly.

2. Staff Workload and Turnover. With Tuluk open, the Staffing teams (at least in their current paradigm) required an Administrator, and 2-3 Storytellers, to oversee that area of the world. I've mentioned this in another thread about Tuluk, but basically I think there was this idea that the player base needed to be consolidated, but more than that, the Staff workload and oversight needed to be consolidated for their own workflow and ability to monitor the game.

Staff Turnover is also something to really consider here -- That hasn't changed, and if anything, the pool of available players to become Staffers has shrunk. Another thing that people rarely consider is that Staff Members can be some of the better players of the game. By better, I don't mean superior, I mean to say that they play the Great Byn Sergeant, or the Plotty Schemey Great Noble everyone loved, or the Fantastic Villain Defiler. When they go upstairs, that player goes upstairs as well. They can do great things as Staffers, but I also wonder if sometimes picking the cream of the crop doesn't hurt the game environment as well.

3. Major Staff Proponents for Tuluk's Closure no longer on Staff. Nyr and Adhira are no longer active Producers of the game but consultants now, and it appears the only Producer remaining that was behind this decision is Nessalin. From what I gathered at the time, even Northern Staff/Administrators were not aware of the decision to close Tuluk, it came from the Producers after they spoke behind closed doors. Of those Producers that made this decision, two of them are no longer involved actively with the game. This alone makes me wonder if revisiting Tuluk would be worth the conversation.

Tuluk was working very well leading right up to the announcement of its closure. Massive RPTs attended by 15-25 people were regularly announced and happening. Things were not what they seemed -- Problems needed to be addressed by the Templarate and Nobles, and the Commoners were certainly their willing pawns. War was on the horizon, and camps were being built and attended to for the first time since the Copper War. There was an energy in the air that things were finally going right for Tuluk. And then, it was closed.

4. Staff from the days of yore. From what I gather, a few of those on Staff (including Brokkr and Seidhr) were big fans of Tuluk during the Rebellion years, and perhaps not big fans of the 2006+ 'Tuluk Reinvisioning' and the countless documentation revamps and attempts to make Tuluk work. I don't blame them. Tuluk has always been an unwieldy, top-heavy, difficult to tackle problem. So I don't imagine Tuluk will just re-open one day without massive changes, and again, that's an assload of work for Staff to accomplish, when they already have enough problems/issues to tackle with the current game environment. It's even more to ask of people who never really liked Tuluk in the first/last place.

5. Alientation of players. The sudden announcement of Tuluk's closure definitely put a sour taste in the mouth of many players who enjoyed playing there the most. That sort of sour taste is hard to get rid of, and even if Tuluk were reopened and changed for the better, I imagine many of those players wouldn't simply jump back into playing ArmageddonMUD, and if they did, they might be waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under them again.

6. Consolidation of the player base. This was a good idea in theory. Jam all the people together, and you'll have more MCB, right? I think this part of the experiment has gone a bit sideways. Part of what kept me playing the game was the ability to dream up the next role. "Oh well, if I die I'll just play in Allanak or maybe the Labyrinth, I haven't been there in years." or "I'm sick and tired of the overtness of Allanak, I think it's time to play in Tuluk again." The game has homogenized to the point of feeling very one-note in Allanak and beyond in my opinion. Do I think it has everything to do with player consolidation? Not really. But I do think it is a factor in what is happening in the game world. I can really see PCs struggling to try and derive meaning from why they play -- Why they endlessly go out to hunt or attempt to raid people or beat off the raiders or kill Gith. It seems like an endless loop, and while Armageddon was always a sort of cycle, there were stories in those cycles worth retelling. Right now, that may be the case in some social circles, but not in any I've seen in quite a time.

Does this have to do with Tuluk being closed? In part, but I can't say it's even the major part. Tuluk served as a foil to Allanak, and in having a foil, there was an idea of something greater going on. Schemes and politics, real or imagined, were happening, right? With Tuluk out of the picture, the game has felt much smaller, simply because more players are jammed pack next to each other, and plotting against each other, drawing the game world from a larger sort of story/plot into a much more interpersonal small world of plots.

---

In conclusion, do I think reopening Tuluk would be fun? For some people who either saw past its shortcomings or embraced them, of course. Would it be a good idea? No. I felt that Tuluk had finally turned a corner right before it closed, but Staff seemed to have a more big picture idea of why Tuluk wasn't working over the course of many years. I feel this was in part due to Staffers of Yore having different memories than the player base of the times when Tuluk really, really, really wasn't working, and were using this as evidence for its closure. In a perfect world, all of the issues they/others have with Tuluk would be addressed head on rather than brushing them under the rug. But it isn't a perfect world, and time is finite. I would rather Staff focus on what they gain enjoyment from than bashing their head against the 'Fix Tuluk' wall again. Maybe that means crafting a new city state, or opening a couple different village outposts. Or maybe it means doing nothing at all.

The only thing I can think of working is something that Bebop mentioned -- Outsourcing. Talk with former Staff and players in Tuluk and basically try to subcontract them into re-opening Tuluk. Assign one or two Administrators to oversee their work and offer input as well as all final decision making. In essence, minimize the workload from current Staff, while relying on these sub-contractors to do the heavy lifting. But even that is a sticky wicket. Who are these former Staffers, and what are their agendas, if any? Who are these former players, and what are their agendas, if any? It's a lot to ask of Staff, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I don't know that there needs to be special roles and an HRPT, but if Tuluk was opened again, I would probably become an active player again -- for better or worse. 

I haven't enjoyed Allanak, to be honest.  It's grit for grit's sake.  Like the kid who just learned how to cuss.  I always jived with Tuluk.  And the way it was shut down, it was ...  not good. 

By bringing it back, too, I hope you don't mean this:

(https://theinfosphere.org/images/thumb/d/d6/Brain_Slugs.jpg/225px-Brain_Slugs.jpg)

It seemed to be trending to such a good place with the consolidation of the Templar ranks and the Levies, and then it was lights out, gates closed.  Bring those things back.  Bring back the Bardic Circle.  The culture and the history.  And yes, bring back the rivalry, in a big way. 

Remember when people used to get butthurt on the GDB because my city X and your city Y?  It was a glorious time for MUDs.  Bring it back!

What about a Faithful and his dedicated band of rangers that patrol gol krathu and hunt gicks? Base them in one of the fortresses in the area.

(We can call them rangers now that there is no ranger class.)

Quote from: tapas on October 05, 2018, 11:26:08 PM
What about a Faithful and his dedicated band of rangers that patrol gol krathu and hunt gicks? Base them in one of the fortresses in the area.

(We can call them rangers now that there is no ranger class.)

This is actually not a bad idea... Sponsored roles. Perhaps able to recruit Tuluki-inked in the region as adjunct militia on an unofficial basis.

I think my consideration around this is larger to the entire game world.

My disconnect is where there's this illusion that players drive the game, and dictate outcomes of plots and story arcs.

What really happens is, all the condition for the desired outcomes are gamed, and its a rarity things do not play out as planned. I don't in theory have a problem with this, but ultimately it appears bad for the game world in my opinion.


Tuluk has every opportunity to be a really fun, well thought out society that has a perfect storyline to come back into things. As far as I can tell, they got betrayed and left to dry by just about every ally they had in the last HRPT or two, they've gone through things as a society that if they survived, would make them ridiculously strong as a cultural unit. Think Germany coming out of WWI and going into WWII: From 0 to 100 real fast, hell bent on making everyone around them pay for their downtrodden years.


I don't need to see a full blown all wheels turning city again, as much as I might like it. What I would like to see is:


- Continuation or closure of the Jihaen/Lirathan struggles (Maybe merging orders was this? It got the OOC result, however there were YEARS AND KING'S AGES of machinations and manipulations between them. I'd like Jiyan-Sel to find some form of continuation. That's a selfish want.


-I want the spirit and playability of the north open again. Call me crazy, but leaving no apartments, limited markets, a bunch of open plot questions, and grey areas, sure as hell seems like it was intended people don't concentrate on that area of the game.

Honestly what the north requires is for staff to simply not say "No". If the players start rolling up northern characters and trying to carry the story, fuel them with some tidbits that'll help fit a reasonable story together. Example:
5 PCs are trying to get answers and do something, okay, i'll have them interact with <made up persona to be animated here> to interact with them and fill in a few questions and help them set the scope of this. Let players run with and build the conflict. There are a few IC explanations that need to be thought out and disseminated into the IC world but it theoretically is ready for interaction on a game changing scale with the players.

I really liked the Egyptian-Aztec leaning stuff, the Lyksaen culture that always existed. If its needed open up a builder project players can fill position on to submit clothing items, weapons styles, some room changes. Let the players do most of the groundwork to limit staff workload as much as possible. I bet there's enough northern players frothing at the mouth to play tuluki-style arm again that it wouldn't be a problem setting the atmosphere.

The worst thing that happens, is it doesn't work out well and then we go back to the singular Allanaki vision again. As far as i'm concerned its almost a 'what do you have to lose' type of situation.

So there's been a number of people inquiring in the request tool about playing Tuluk based roles and suddenly I see what stirred it up, this thread.

Before I say anything else, I want to say that we are not currently allowing Tuluki based roles beyond just the generic "Yo I'm from Tuluk, Yo!" home city option in character generation.  No escaped templars, no underground chosen, etc.  Sorry.

I will also say that staff acknowledge that the current dynamic, as one player put it, is "the elephant in the room."  Changing it would also be a pretty significant thing, so while I think staff would love to do something awesome with Tuluk - sorry, it's gonna take time, if we do it at all.  I just oversaw a change to Luirs that was way, way smaller and it took a long time to even get that put through, for comparison's sake.

The thing about Tuluk - this is just me talking here, not an official staff statement, but someone who was on staff when Tuluk closed, before, and since that time.

Tuluk has this extremely complicated and pretty cool documentation that a lot of players just don't understand.  They're used to Allanak where everything is pretty transparent *boom* in your face style everything.  Yes, yes - we all joke about Tuluk and its subtleties, but it really does have them.  And to be blunt, a lot of people just never understood that or played up to that standard.  Then there were the people that absolutely did play up to that level, and even beyond, but I would say they were the exception rather than the rule.

Controversial opinion warning:  I don't think most players could be bothered to understand (or read - maybe a tldr type thing) the documentation for Tuluk, and therefore it never really worked.

I think that a lot of people just got the idea that Tuluk was like a more sophisticated Allanak where resources weren't scarce and there was lots of marble and silk and finely-carved wooden this-and-thats and every single person walking around was kind of a faux noble.  Even the dwarves and the breeds and the dung sweepers.  None of these things are really supposed to be true, but the way people played it, it sure seemed like it.

Tuluk was supposed to have all the grit of Allanak, it just happened behind closed doors.  While yes, they had more of certain resources - like wood, they would have been short on others.

To me - Tuluk was supposed to be like Pyongyang in North Korea.  Polished perhaps on the outside, intended to be a showcase city - but the people living there were suffering, barely had enough food to eat, and would turn on their neighbors in a heartbeat if it meant getting a leg up and maybe an extra dose of rations from the authorities, or even better, a better apartment or employment with the state.  Instead you had half-elves manufacturing silk dresses by the wagonload and even wearing them, sharing the ubiquitous "nod" with Chosen in taverns - and it was like this big kumbiyah happy family up there.  The whole "North Korea" secret police aspect got swallowed up and was so behind closed doors that nobody ever saw it, and while at least one templar really did bring that to life, the way it was done was stifling to anything of import or even remotely controversial ever happening up there.  (please note my very purposeful omission of details on this matter, with regard to the templarate and how that all worked via mechanics)

The fact that I'm here saying stuff like "To me, Tuluk was like...<xyz>" is symptomatic of the problem.  The documentation was so deep you could get lost in it, and so open to interpretation and vagueries that everyone thought everyone else was wrong about how to play a proper Tuluki.  I don't even begin to pretend to comprehend all of it, and heck - I'm on staff.  I staffed Tuluk.  I've played this game, on and off, since 1997.

The way it panned out is nobody in particular's fault.  At least one heroic effort was made to streamline documentation and make sure people could navigate and understand it, but I would argue that it didn't work.  *shrug*

You heard it, not just from me, but from seidhr. Tuluk did suck.

Quote from: seidhr on October 09, 2018, 12:25:58 AM
So there's been a number of people inquiring in the request tool about playing Tuluk based roles and suddenly I see what stirred it up, this thread.

That speaks volumes though, seidhr.

A number of people have interest in playing in Tuluk, but that has been made impossible (for the time being). For those that do want to play in Tuluk but cannot, the only option is as a Tuluki Refugee, which will have to suffice. I think without an incredibly gung-ho "I get Tuluk" as a Producer wanting to lead the charge in tackling the project, it just isn't going to happen. It appeared to take Nyr and Adhira to close it (with a Shade of Nessalin nod) so I can't see how it wouldn't take the same level of consideration to reopen it. It would be a ton of work, and really, for a game/hobby, it should be something Staff wants to work on.

So, despite the player interest (whether temporary or not), it really rests on Staff interest, and more particularly, Administrator and ultimately Producer interest, to reopen Tuluk or even discuss reopening it.

no tluk pls

yes tluk pls?

We just need another 50 at peak. Get your friends to come on. Go forth and recruit.

A couple of months ago I led a Staff side discussion which started with which things to open or close over the next six months or so.  It was pretty encompassing and did manage to go a little beyond that topic, but overall the idea was to set our strategy in that area for a period of time, so that we were directing our efforts in a coherent matter.

Tuluk was discussed. Multiple options for Tuluk were discussed. I'm not going to talk about what decisions were made as part of that process, other than to say Tuluk opening isn't on the docket for the next six months. We have other things we will be trying to get accomplished.

Quote from: seidhr on October 09, 2018, 12:25:58 AM
To me - Tuluk was supposed to be like Pyongyang in North Korea.  Polished perhaps on the outside, intended to be a showcase city - but the people living there were suffering, barely had enough food to eat, and would turn on their neighbors in a heartbeat if it meant getting a leg up and maybe an extra dose of rations from the authorities, or even better, a better apartment or employment with the state. 

If it wasn't that way then, it certainly could be now.  Could rebuild it any way you want, really, but I get and agree that that's not in the cards without a player population resurgence.

In the meanwhile, I think people really just want a little more pronounced presence in the world.  Give some expat character support; even just staff post with a few details about common conditions a refugee might be fleeing from.  You've also got some novel plot opportunities like diplomatic overtures, PvE spy intrigue, "containment failures", etc.  It's also a rare chance to transplant an entire clan, with all their lore and traditions, out of the region.

I'd also like to see, with less of an Allanak vs. Tuluk as polar opposites dynamic, some player-culture shifts down south.  Subtlety and artistry shouldn't have to be bad words in Allanak. 

It would also be cool to have a chance for some major social mobility, ala the Grey Hunt.  Maybe Tek feels like his nobility have gotten a bit complacent and wants to threaten them with new blood by tossing a few writs of elevation to some worthy commoners.  Could you imagine the political chaos that could bring?

+1 @ Moe

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 09, 2018, 12:32:30 PM

It would also be cool to have a chance for some major social mobility, ala the Grey Hunt.  Maybe Tek feels like his nobility have gotten a bit complacent and wants to threaten them with new blood by tossing a few writs of elevation to some worthy commoners.  Could you imagine the political chaos that could bring?

100 MILLION % against plebs becoming nobility in new ways.  We need social lines in place, not blurred. 

Quote from: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 12:39:08 PM
+1 @ Moe

-1 @ you two

I'm not sure that a narrow path to cross social lines necessarily blurs them (Tuluk had a much more rigid caste system than Allanak, after all)... but why? 

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 09, 2018, 03:06:33 PM
I'm not sure that a narrow path to cross social lines necessarily blurs them (Tuluk had a much more rigid caste system than Allanak, after all)... but why?

That's a question we can probably live debate for hours, I think.

A newly appointed noble house in Allanak is WAY out of character for Him. That's my primary reason.

I don't even think reopening Tuluk is necessary. An explanation or closure is fine too.

And I definitely wouldn't reopen Tuluk without a good story to go with it and why it closed. I hope that if it reopens it isn't some sort of weird retcon, but that there's some meat there.

But I think in the meantime, it's still an awkward void.

Quote from: seidhr on October 09, 2018, 12:25:58 AM

The thing about Tuluk

Thanks for this, I try to consider there was in entire tuluk before what even I saw.

Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 11:58:23 AM
A couple of months ago I led a Staff side discussion which started with which things to open or close over the next six months or so.

Thanks for the update and a bit of insight into what's going on.

The Levies were easily the best part of Tuluk for me. Jesus, I'd love to have them back.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 09, 2018, 12:32:30 PM

Quote from: seidhr on October 09, 2018, 12:25:58 AM
To me - Tuluk was supposed to be like Pyongyang in North Korea.  Polished perhaps on the outside, intended to be a showcase city - but the people living there were suffering, barely had enough food to eat, and would turn on their neighbors in a heartbeat if it meant getting a leg up and maybe an extra dose of rations from the authorities, or even better, a better apartment or employment with the state. 

If it wasn't that way then, it certainly could be now. 

Tuluk was becoming more culturally malleable in its last month of life, and what was changing there was improving. It still felt like Tuluk, but also like a Tuluk that belonged in the world. I suppose it was too late to save its place as a playing location by that point, though.

If anyone wants to see a good example of what I think Tuluk's tone could have been, I recommend watching The Death of Stalin. Corrupt authority figures being being faux affable with one another, commoners living in a purported paradise rife with paranoia and midnight disappearances, everyone being in fear of The Boss... it reminded me a lot of Late Stage Tuluk. I'm sad Tuluk isn't going to re-open as I think a more cerebral dictatorship could be fun to explore.

(https://i.imgur.com/iUynE30.jpg)
"I'm smiling right now, but I am Fucking Furious."

Well, don't lose hope. Brokkr said it's not slated for the next 6 months. That doesn't mean that staff isn't listening, and won't move to do something with it after that. Large-scale plans take time. I'd prefer something sooner, myself. But it is what it is.

I feel like the current staff is probably the most responsive and diplomatic to player input of any staff I can recall in the history of Arm, and for all of the doom and gloom talk that has happened lately, I think that is a pretty fucking bright light on the horizon. Thank you to Brokkr, Seidr, Akariel, and all the other staff who has been kind enough to give their time to the players in a collaberative effort to improve all of our experiences with the game. I really appreciate it, as I'm sure others do, too.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 10, 2018, 04:25:27 AM
If anyone wants to see a good example of what I think Tuluk's tone could have been, I recommend watching The Death of Stalin. Corrupt authority figures being being faux affable with one another, commoners living in a purported paradise rife with paranoia and midnight disappearances, everyone being in fear of The Boss... it reminded me a lot of Late Stage Tuluk. I'm sad Tuluk isn't going to re-open as I think a more cerebral dictatorship could be fun to explore.

(https://i.imgur.com/iUynE30.jpg)
"I'm smiling right now, but I am Fucking Furious."

Bruh, I kudosed Malken one time and told him he was the best representation of a Tuluki soldier, because I'd watched that documentary on North Korea where Lisa Ling goes in, and man, he was -just- like all of those citizens... just, um, for the Sun King and the Chosen House he was playing in.

People live in fear of Tektolnes because he's a mother fucking dragon. People were doing the will of Muk Utep for far different reasons. I thought it was a beautiful sort of difference.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 10, 2018, 04:25:27 AM
If anyone wants to see a good example of what I think Tuluk's tone could have been, I recommend watching The Death of Stalin. Corrupt authority figures being being faux affable with one another, commoners living in a purported paradise rife with paranoia and midnight disappearances, everyone being in fear of The Boss... it reminded me a lot of Late Stage Tuluk. I'm sad Tuluk isn't going to re-open as I think a more cerebral dictatorship could be fun to explore.

(https://i.imgur.com/iUynE30.jpg)
"I'm smiling right now, but I am Fucking Furious."

Sounds cool, and appropriate to Tuluk - as described.  Will try to catch it!

I don't think Tuluk necessarily needs to reopen--I like it better than Allanak, but having your playerbase be concentrated and accessible is probably a good thing.

I think however that it needs a presence.  The occassional Tuluki raiding or assassination party in the south, the odd rumor of its activities.  Some kind of in-character definitive answer about what's been going on there (civil war, xenophobia, literal magical stasis, everyone teleported to the moon???) would make for a great plot arc.  Even if it's something as simple as the city sending out a single PC templar or dignitary to be the de facto dictator of Morin's.

How about if staff were to rewrite the main areas of Tuluk as ruins, and have underTuluk where a few players could base from. Then they themselves could put some time into trying to rebuild Tuluk as a different place, one room at a time. That way, staff wouldn't have to put in a lot of work at once, and players could take an active part in the building. If there are enough of them, it could be a success, and if not, a failure.

We're here talking about how much we want Tuluk back into the plot of the game..and we could simply let the players do it.

The more I think about this, the more I simply want to +1 Bebop.

I don't care who does it, for those who want to play in Tuluk, they ought to be able to. There is no canonical barrier to that. Let's try it out.

I never saw Tuluk, but what I've seen is an absence of people trying to preserve any Tuluki lore or culture in game. :(

There's safe places to do so, aren't there? In Tuluk? Morin's?

I'd like to see it tried and then pick up enough of that information to actually play one myself. I'm the king of lost causes.

Quote from: Miradus on October 17, 2018, 08:54:01 PM

I never saw Tuluk, but what I've seen is an absence of people trying to preserve any Tuluki lore or culture in game. :(

There's safe places to do so, aren't there? In Tuluk? Morin's?

I'd like to see it tried and then pick up enough of that information to actually play one myself. I'm the king of lost causes.

The problem is, they've made Morin's intentionally boring, small, and without support to discourage players from living there long-term. No apartments, so no item storage, no sponsored roles there, so no politics, no clanned jobs, few players because of those, so not much of a player economy, no one to sell to, no one to rob, etc.

People not preserving Tuluki culture IG is less representative of players not wanting to, and more a result of coded disadvantages to trying to do so.

Mirudus, I think a barrier to that is the canonical uncertainty as to what Tuluk's actual status is.  The city is currently present in the game world, but there is no actual coded way to enter it at the moment.

If no one's going in or out of the city, and all that's left of Tuluk are its outlying holdings and legions sourced from the hinterlands, then it's difficult to play someone with a strong connection to its national civic culture.  And if the city is in fact ruined, those roles wouldn't be available at all.  We just don't know.

Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2018, 10:31:07 PM
Mirudus, I think a barrier to that is the canonical uncertainty as to what Tuluk's actual status is.  The city is currently present in the game world, but there is no actual coded way to enter it at the moment.

If no one's going in or out of the city, and all that's left of Tuluk are its outlying holdings and legions sourced from the hinterlands, then it's difficult to play someone with a strong connection to its national civic culture.  And if the city is in fact ruined, those roles wouldn't be available at all.  We just don't know.

I actually recall seeing a post made by staff from years ago saying that, IC, Tuluk is open to visit virtually, you just can't -actually- go inside the gates. So you are allowed to RP that you do during downtime, I think, but no one does because we don't actually know the status of what the city is currently like inside. It's also possible that post is dated and no longer accurate. There just really isn't a lot of information to go off of.

Make unsanctioned sex illegal when you bring it back.

1) Only sex allowed is purchased via slaves, marriage (yes, commoners too though we should call it something cheest, like life mate) or licensed and inked fornication suppliers (like shadow artistry) to insure purity.
2) Breeding itself must have a license per child.  Breeding without a license will result in child being enslaved, infanticide upon birth or murder of one or both parents.
3) Let nobles for fornicaters BUT if they knock one up or get knocked up by one, PUBLIC SHAME AND MURDER!
4) Pairing outside your House/station is forbidden by commoners unless sanctioned by each organization.

This isn't a joke post. I'm totally serious about this form of oppression.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 18, 2018, 11:48:42 AM
Make unsanctioned sex illegal when you bring it back.

1) Only sex allowed is purchased via slaves, marriage (yes, commoners too though we should call it something cheest, like life mate) or licensed and inked fornication suppliers (like shadow artistry) to insure purity.
2) Breeding itself must have a license per child.  Breeding without a license will result in child being enslaved, infanticide upon birth or murder of one or both parents.
3) Let nobles for fornicaters BUT if they knock one up or get knocked up by one, PUBLIC SHAME AND MURDER!
4) Pairing outside your House/station is forbidden by commoners unless sanctioned by each organization.

This isn't a joke post. I'm totally serious about this form of oppression.

Umm. Why?

"Let's take what didn't work about Tuluk and DIAL IT UP TO 11."

Becomes a slippery slope:

"Hey guys did you heard abou-"

"WOAH WOAH WOAH. Did you get a license for this conversation with the Ministry of Topics?"

"No .. I guess I'll do that then.. Fuck, I hate playing in Tuluk"

>e

Templar of Movement: "Where do you think you're going?"

Quote from: Decameron on October 18, 2018, 12:35:31 PM
Becomes a slippery slope:

"Hey guys did you heard abou-"

"WOAH WOAH WOAH. Did you get a license for this conversation with the Ministry of Topics?"

"No .. I guess I'll do that then.. Fuck, I hate playing in Tuluk"

>e

Templar of Movement: "Where do you think you're going?"

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3d/3dcd48e4d029489a18e778c089301f0ad904a8e983cf7b477d5c579c3f9bab96.jpg)

Quote from: Dar on October 18, 2018, 12:21:15 PM

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 18, 2018, 11:48:42 AM
Make unsanctioned sex illegal when you bring it back.

1) Only sex allowed is purchased via slaves, marriage (yes, commoners too though we should call it something cheest, like life mate) or licensed and inked fornication suppliers (like shadow artistry) to insure purity.
2) Breeding itself must have a license per child.  Breeding without a license will result in child being enslaved, infanticide upon birth or murder of one or both parents.
3) Let nobles for fornicaters BUT if they knock one up or get knocked up by one, PUBLIC SHAME AND MURDER!
4) Pairing outside your House/station is forbidden by commoners unless sanctioned by each organization.

This isn't a joke post. I'm totally serious about this form of oppression.

Umm. Why?

It adds a realistic level of difficulty in the oppressive side. Tuluk was meant to be oppressive as fuck. The denizens there are supposed to be petrified. All that frolicking WAS supposed to be just a front but there really weren't any oppressive laws at all.

You couldn't be a gick. Citizens covered up for them.

Noble/commoner fornication was against the rules (it happened and you were force stored, there were NO ic repercussions for breaking his law).

You couldn't kill without a license but people did. A lot.

There's more opportunity for oppression, real oppression, for the "we drank the kool-aid" cult. You can do THIS if you comply. 

Take away basic rights and pleasures.  Restrict them. Only allow alcohol to be sold between X time and Y time. No spice sales to non citizens. 

I bet the life span would drop significantly.

Quote from: Decameron on October 18, 2018, 12:35:31 PM
Becomes a slippery slope:

"Hey guys did you heard abou-"

"WOAH WOAH WOAH. Did you get a license for this conversation with the Ministry of Topics?"

"No .. I guess I'll do that then.. Fuck, I hate playing in Tuluk"

>e

Templar of Movement: "Where do you think you're going?"

Not wrong but can't templars do whatever the fuck they want anyway?

Everyone wants Tuluk reopened because it was a nice place to roleplay that wasn't delivering what it was supposed to.  Quite the opposite as a matter of fact. 

No one can deny the cake walk that was Tuluk.

I mean they can, but it'd be bullshit lol

From a playability point of view that's shit though

Sometimes there are things that sound cool when you're theorycrafting, or might work in a dystopian novel. These same things would be absolutely terrible to implement and play through from a multiplayer game standpoint.

This is one of those things.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 18, 2018, 11:48:42 AM
Make unsanctioned sex illegal when you bring it back.

1) Only sex allowed is purchased via slaves, marriage (yes, commoners too though we should call it something cheest, like life mate) or licensed and inked fornication suppliers (like shadow artistry) to insure purity.
2) Breeding itself must have a license per child.  Breeding without a license will result in child being enslaved, infanticide upon birth or murder of one or both parents.
3) Let nobles for fornicaters BUT if they knock one up or get knocked up by one, PUBLIC SHAME AND MURDER!
4) Pairing outside your House/station is forbidden by commoners unless sanctioned by each organization.

This isn't a joke post. I'm totally serious about this form of oppression.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/200w.gif)

Well, I certainly applaud your willingness to make a bold suggestion, lol.

Quote from: Delirium on October 18, 2018, 01:22:42 PM
Sometimes there are things that sound cool when you're theorycrafting, or might work in a dystopian novel. These same things would be absolutely terrible to implement and play through from a multiplayer game standpoint.

This is one of those things.

This is what I was feeling, but having trouble putting into words.

It's something I wouldn't bat an eye at in a novel -- something I would likely see as really interesting word building.

It's something that just inspires "wut" when I think about it in the game.

Or we just allow Malken to be Sun King and he takes concubines.

More seriously though, Tuluk is a slightly less economically depressed North Korea. Or it's supposed to be. But it was so fun to drink that golden kool-aid.

(No piss jokes, please.)

Frequently my ideas are too hard core for the masses.  Alas. 

None of you are invited to my birthday party!

You can do cock and ball torture all you want, IC, but making it the basis of one of the game's cities seems a little excessive in our opinion, that's all.

tuluk was never oppressive for PCs as long as your character was polite then it was the (relative to Zalanthas) utopia it claimed to be and there was little reason to be discontent

there has to be actual oppression, laws that everyone knows is bureaucratic bullshit, otherwise what is oppressing you?

Edit: allanak is better at being tuluk than tuluk ever was because of stupid laws that leave you scratching your head like the spice ban or merchant licences

Why not outlaw weapons inside the city? Then that leaves plenty of opportunity for search and seizure, sneaky impromptu weapons, smuggled weapons into the city, etc. it could take the place of what spice fails to do in the South, because you don't NEED spice for anything, but you need weapons to murder/intimidate someone. Of course there would be organizations who could have them on certain property, but a bynner wandering around with a sword on his back? "No, no, no." Not unless they're directly acting under orders AND leaving the city or are accompanied by a templar/ or milita member.

That would drastically change play up in the North and it enforces the perma-policestate play-nice mentality.

Wdit: also no fucklicences.

continued politeness in tuluk should be a test of willpower and patience rather than naturally being amiable

there SHOULD be so much shit you want to complain about but you know better because doing so will only make things worse for you

Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 02:09:14 AM
continued politeness in tuluk should be a test of willpower and patience rather than naturally being amiable

there SHOULD be so much shit you want to complain about but you know better because doing so will only make things worse for you

That's how Tuluk already was if you played it right.

Quote from: Bebop on October 19, 2018, 12:41:33 PM

Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 02:09:14 AM
continued politeness in tuluk should be a test of willpower and patience rather than naturally being amiable

there SHOULD be so much shit you want to complain about but you know better because doing so will only make things worse for you

That's how Tuluk already was if you played it right.

I don't there was that much to complain about. To me, Tuluk always seemed like the Land of Milk and Honey, minus the Canaanites to fuck you up. Art and culture galore (not a sign of a poverty stricken or oppressed society), lots of coins, easy food and water.

Players did a good job of playing the society, but it lacked that Northern Korean gut-punch of actual starvation and oppression.

There is a big difference between:

Jewel-adorned, wine-swilling, beautiful poet professing love to the Sun King when they don't actual love the Sun King (why don't you, your life is awesome!?)

-and-

Dirty, terror-stricken, struggling denizen of the city professing allegiance to the Sun King, when they should actually be revolting but don't out of fear.

Quote from: roughneck on October 19, 2018, 12:52:47 PM

Quote from: Bebop on October 19, 2018, 12:41:33 PM

Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 02:09:14 AM
continued politeness in tuluk should be a test of willpower and patience rather than naturally being amiable

there SHOULD be so much shit you want to complain about but you know better because doing so will only make things worse for you

That's how Tuluk already was if you played it right.

I don't there was that much to complain about. To me, Tuluk always seemed like the Land of Milk and Honey, minus the Canaanites to fuck you up. Art and culture galore (not a sign of a poverty stricken or oppressed society), lots of coins, easy food and water.

Players did a good job of playing the society, but it lacked that Northern Korean gut-punch of actual starvation and oppression.

There is a big difference between:

Jewel-adorned, wine-swilling, beautiful poet professing love to the Sun King when they don't actual love the Sun King (why don't you, your life is awesome!?)

-and-

Dirty, terror-stricken, struggling denizen of the city professing allegiance to the Sun King, when they should actually be revolting but don't out of fear.

Bebop Story Time

I had a character that was a Driamusek bard.  Driamusek are the epitome of politeness and ritualistic culture within the Circle.  She followed the rules, to a T and was hyper aware of social standing.

Then she starts to decide, is my art really art if I'm doing what everyone is doing?  I want to be a real artist.  She starts doing skellsbane to fuck with her mind.  Drinking.  Fucking an elf behind closed doors.  She's living a double life.  She's becoming a very dark human being.  She's constantly torn between being a loyalist and pushing her art to be real, expressive, true.

She's hired to put on a play for the Circle.  She starts constructing and subtly weaving in revolutionary ideas towing the line of the blind obedience and loyalty that is expected and subtly inferring that thinking and pushing the limits are real artistry.  She's pulled aside by the Faithful and told she's fucking shit up, she's poorly representing the culture, they know what she's doing behind closed doors.  She can complete her play, but after that she's going to get disappeared and she better not say shit.

She flees to Luir's for awhile.  She's told, hey it's okay, you can come back.  We've got shit sorted.  You're just trying to be an artist right?  She's pulled behind closed doors by her patron and promptly put to death by another bard in his office.  Her revolutionary play doesn't happen.

--------------------

I'm playing a thief named Reiko.  She's an orphan, poor, a kid, trying to scrape by the in the world.  She's weird and abandoned.  She becomes a shadow artist, a thief.  She's not great, but she's trying to be what she thinks a Tuluki could be.  She gets knocked up, has this kid.  She's a kid with a kid.  Her mate infuriates her.  The woman he flirts with infuriates her.  One day she splashes water in the face of some woman in the Sanctuary she feels threatened by.  Everyone is aghast.  She's trying to fit into this very "polite" society.  She's trying to be a thief while never outwardly being exposed as one.

One day she steals from a high-level Kadian.  After that she comes home one day and her baby is gone.  Abducted.  She's pulled aside by the Faithful, it's time to get disappeared.  She manages to flee into Under Tuluk.  She's a girl, she doesn't know what to do.  She's with her friend getting ready to flee south until she can come back for her baby.  She's clasping the hands of her friend to say goodbye.  She dies instantly to a bard sent to collect her head.

Her former mate lives for a long while as a loyalist and soldier, acting as though nothing ever happened in servitude to the Sun King.

(http://new.armageddon.org/original/artwork/351.JPG)

--------------------

I'm playing Bo an Allanaki woman with a big gambling problem.  I junk all of her clothes and every possession she has.  I start her off with a blackened and bruised face.  She joins the Byn.  She starts fucking Sergeant Raul.  They're close, but never get too close because they're mercenaries.  She adopts a PC kid named Cal.  She gets knocked up.  Then one day, for reasons I do not know IG or OOC a Templar just decides to flippantly banish her from the city.  She takes her PC kid Cal and they flee to Tuluk.

Bo is not great at being a person.  She's addicted to gambling.  She spends and wastes every sid she earns.  She's hung up on Raul.  She's knocked up.  She goes off with the Byn sorcerer hunting one day and due to [redacted] ends up in a chasm in the Grey. A grand rescue mission occurs.  The scorcerer has his eye on her.  She makes it back alive, far less sane and more cut up than before.

But she keeps having magickal shit happen to her.  She keeps getting magickally attacked.  In Tuluk.  She's cursed.  Afraid and exiled she's just trying to survive.  Meanwhile, Cal her adopted kid is left to his own devices.  He's a capable thief.  A few people of note take notice.  He can be turned.  He can be turned to be a loyalist and a skilled shadow artist.  This poor Southron boy can be converted.  "You're doing great kid."  Bo's proud her kid is making something of himself, but she's fucked up and inevitably the Faithful take notice that she isn't a magicker, but she's a southron and cursed and bringing magickal affliction into the city tormented by an enemy she can't see or possibly match with no where to go.

She asks Cal not to tell anyone, but he's scared for her, young and naive.  He wants her to get help, surely they'll just help her. 

The Faithful pull her aside, it's time to get disappeared.  But don't worry.  Cal will be taken care of.  We'll even let you say goodbye if you promise to tell him to trust us, to work with us.  To do as we say.  Bo is brought before her adopted kid knowing this is the end, the last goodbye.  In a final, self-less attempt to save him she does as they ask.  "Hey kid, be good.  It'll be alright, trust these nice people.  Going away for awhile."  I might have been crying OOC.  (I was definitely crying OOC).  Bo, who is pregnant, is brought back and killed.  Cal realizes something isn't kosher.  He flees and he too, a good-natured, innocent young boy, is also tracked down and killed.  The assassin struggles with her kill for some time in expected silence.


These are just a few of my Tuluki stories so I have to disagree that Tuluk is this prosperous care bear land if you're playing it right.  But that does require people to get in there and play it right and take chances.

That post is not appropriate for this thread.  Mods, please remove it...




...and put it somewhere prominent so everyone can freaking read it.  Especially potential new players.

Wonderful stuff.  This is what can recruit new players.  And, finally, the story behind my favorite Armageddon art!

Yeah, this is the Tuluk I remember.

i don't want to be that guy but

-disrespecting the powers that be
-stealing from merchant houses
-being a magicker in places where you're not allowed to be a magicker (and even in some places you're allowed to be)being a foreign walking magickal cataclysm

these aren't tuluk exclusive things and would get you killed no matter where you are in Zalanthas

there isn't any reason any of those characters couldn't have done everything they did in any other city, if you have to be suicidally careless to be oppressed then you're not actually oppressed

Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 07:44:28 PM
i don't want to be that guy but

-disrespecting the powers that be
-stealing from merchant houses
-being a magicker in places where you're not allowed to be a magicker (and even in some places you're allowed to be)being a foreign walking magickal cataclysm

these aren't tuluk exclusive things and would get you killed no matter where you are in Zalanthas

there isn't any reason any of those characters couldn't have done everything they did in any other city, if you have to be suicidally careless to be oppressed then you're not actually oppressed

That's not the issue. It's that, quite often, a character's life and death would be more memorable than characters in the South. It's about compelling roleplay, memorable experiences, and satisfying deaths. Those, particularly the last part, are far more rare in Nak. At least, that's my opinion.

Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 07:44:28 PM
i don't want to be that guy but

-disrespecting the powers that be
-stealing from merchant houses
-being a magicker in places where you're not allowed to be a magicker (and even in some places you're allowed to be)being a foreign walking magickal cataclysm

these aren't tuluk exclusive things and would get you killed no matter where you are in Zalanthas

there isn't any reason any of those characters couldn't have done everything they did in any other city, if you have to be suicidally careless to be oppressed then you're not actually oppressed

Um, my characters weren't suicidally careless and I would love to see how a Driamusek role play could be done in Allanak since they don't exist there.  ::)  Driamusek are Tuluk exclusive, shadow artists are Tuluk exclusive, bards are Tuluk exclusive, getting disappeared is Tuluki exclusive.  Tuluki culture was heavy in all of these circumstances I displayed here and just for the record.... you are being that guy.  You're over generalizing plots that were very deep and characters that were very nuanced that I've only scratched the surface to summarize quickly here.

i don't understand the point you're trying to make, does the existence of bards and shadow artists somehow make your character more oppressed than they would have been allanak or luirs?

sure, if you were stepping on the toes of powerful people (this required active effort) then you get oppressed, but if you were playing a character with more self preservation than a lemming then you just didn't and got the EZ troublefree life by Zalanthas standards

Quote from: Bebop on October 19, 2018, 10:00:58 PM
Driamusek are Tuluk exclusive,

Atrium.

Quoteshadow artists are Tuluk exclusive,

There's nothing stopping Templars from having pet sneakies. In fact, it's kind of the norm for a sneaky character to have a templar patron in Allanak.  The shadow artist thing in Tuluk rarely worked out the way it should have. You can do the same thing, I argue better, by playing an aide to a noble or templar with sneaky skills in Allanak.

Quotebards are Tuluk exclusive

Maybe there's no bardic tradition in Allanak, but there's nothing stopping anyone from playing a bard.

Quotegetting disappeared is Tuluki exclusive.

You can get disappeared in Allanak, though without the cultural taboo against mentioning disappeared people. But, honestly, that was one of the worst parts of playing Tuluk -- it was often impossible to know the story, because no one would talk about it.

Regardless, closing Tuluk in the fashion that it was basically was a middle-finger to the years of stories and PCs involved since the Rebellion took place. Of course it makes people butt hurt.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 18, 2018, 02:44:07 PM
Frequently my ideas are too hard core for the masses.  Alas. 

None of you are invited to my birthday party!

I liked all those ideas.

Quote from: number13 on October 20, 2018, 03:13:38 AM
Stuff

Y'all are really too much. 

First roughneck says he never saw Tuluk as gritty.  Which is fair but based only on his experience.  So I'm like let me pull back the veil.  Here's where thrice shit got real in Tuluk.

And someone else comes in taking my experiences that actually happened and just saying well ... Well those could've happened in Nak and maybe even better. ::) But they didn't.  And I could elaborate about why that would be unlikely but I'm not going to because some of y'all are so dead set on being contrarions it's like arguing with Evangelical Christians.

I post some fun memories, tipping my hat to Tuluk's realness and then you take those experiences and just decided some pie in the sky alternative could've happened in Allanak and it would've been better.  Like, you're missing the point of my post completely.

I was responding to the idea that Tuluk wasn't gritty.  My point was to show it was gritty when played well and I think I did that.  I don't have time for all of the hypothetical situations you guys want to dream up to try to diminish my point and the cool shit I've experienced in game.  I was making my point.  We're not even having the same conversation.  My point was not could this happen to some degree in Nak?  My point was cool shit actually happened in Tuluk with it's own Tuluki nuance.

Stop pigeonholing everything I say and get with the spirit of my post.  Thanks.

This is why posting on the GDB is so pointless.

1 - Cool shit happened in Tuluk.

2- No, it was never gritty and should've been hard to be polite instead of a bunch of sycophants.

1- Oh, it was like that.  It was gritty and a struggle to be polite when shit got real.  Here's a few of my examples that are pretty good and I look back on fondly.

2- WELL, that could have happened in Allanak, maybe even BETTER.

1 - WTF, I thought you just wanted proof of Tuluk's merits, so I'm giving you some based on real experiences.

2- Well, it all would've just been better in Allanak.  It could've happened in AlLAnAk.

1- I wasn't saying some version of it couldn't have happened in Allanak, I was trying to respond to your original point that Tuluk wasn't raw, but then when I proved it was, seems like you're just changing arguments with hypothetical instead of what actually went down.

Tuluk didn't always work well. I think that's obvious.

I played a legionnaire for about a year, the last couple of months he left to become independent. I can count on one finger the number of disappearances I was aware of. He was an inked assassin and thief, but nobody ever hired him. The local Lirathan came around a couple of times to smash my character's plots. I know now they were up to all sorts of cool stuff, but they never bothered to include my character.

The only thing that kept my interest during that period was the lingering Kryl war. But even that kinda fell apart when there was a staff change.

Quote from: Bebop on October 20, 2018, 04:14:25 PM

Quote from: number13 on October 20, 2018, 03:13:38 AM
Stuff

Y'all are really too much. 

First roughneck says he never saw Tuluk as gritty.  Which is fair but based only on his experience.  So I'm like let me pull back the veil.  Here's where thrice shit got real in Tuluk.

And someone else comes in taking my experiences that actually happened and just saying well ... Well those could've happened in Nak and maybe even better. ::) But they didn't.  And I could elaborate about why that would be unlikely but I'm not going to because some of y'all are so dead set on being contrarions it's like arguing with Evangelical Christians.

I post some fun memories, tipping my hat to Tuluk's realness and then you take those experiences and just decided some pie in the sky alternative could've happened in Allanak and it would've been better.  Like, you're missing the point of my post completely.

I was responding to the idea that Tuluk wasn't gritty.  My point was to show it was gritty when played well and I think I did that.  I don't have time for all of the hypothetical situations you guys want to dream up to try to diminish my point and the cool shit I've experienced in game.  I was making my point.  We're not even having the same conversation.  My point was not could this happen to some degree in Nak?  My point was cool shit actually happened in Tuluk with it's own Tuluki nuance.

Stop pigeonholing everything I say and get with the spirit of my post.  Thanks.

This is why posting on the GDB is so pointless.

1 - Cool shit happened in Tuluk.

2- No, it was never gritty and should've been hard to be polite instead of a bunch of sycophants.

1- Oh, it was like that.  It was gritty and a struggle to be polite when shit got real.  Here's a few of my examples that are pretty good and I look back on fondly.

2- WELL, that could have happened in Allanak, maybe even BETTER.

1 - WTF, I thought you just wanted proof of Tuluk's merits, so I'm giving you some based on real experiences.

2- Well, it all would've just been better in Allanak.  It could've happened in AlLAnAk.

1- I wasn't saying some version of it couldn't have happened in Allanak, I was trying to respond to your original point that Tuluk wasn't raw, but then when I proved it was, seems like you're just changing arguments with hypothetical instead of what actually went down.

Get off your own high horse, they said it COULD happen in Nak, not that it would happen better.

Everyone Relax. This isn't and shouldn't be a discussion about what's better, Nak or Tuluk.

The GAME was better with both.

Tuluk's an interesting writing prompt.  What's going on inside?  What do the people we'd relate to as protagonists do?  Do they have trouble escaping the place they're in now?  With the Way being what it is, why haven't stories leaked out?

I wasn't a Tuluk fan after it became a city, but it's still an important part of the Armageddon story, and to me its closure has created new intrigue.

Quote from: Heade on October 21, 2018, 12:56:58 AM
The GAME was better with both.

The game would be better if we had the player base to support a second city, so that each city would have to deal with foreign politics, so that you get could lost across the map after the death of a character. The game would be even better than that if we had 200 players on peak,  to support a third and fourth city.

We don't.

But Tuluk itself had plot killing properties. It would be an interesting place to read about or to play in a 5-player D&D campaign. It's was a flawed setting for a 100-player narrative.

 ::)

Quote from: number13 on October 21, 2018, 03:08:30 AM

Quote from: Heade on October 21, 2018, 12:56:58 AM
The GAME was better with both.

The game would be better if we had the player base to support a second city, so that each city would have to deal with foreign politics, so that you get could lost across the map after the death of a character. The game would be even better than that if we had 200 players on peak,  to support a third and fourth city.

We don't.

But Tuluk itself had plot killing properties. It would be an interesting place to read about or to play in a 5-player D&D campaign. It's was a flawed setting for a 100-player narrative.

Ok, so get rid of the plot killing properties and give us back the sandbox that facilitates foreign politics and the ability to get lost across the map in a new character after the death of an old character. Right now, the game world feels too small to support growth, and we want growth. It's a catch-22. Don't feel like we have enough players to support a second city, so we close the second city, making it less likely to get and retain more players to support it.

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 21, 2018, 01:19:25 AM
Tuluk's an interesting writing prompt.  What's going on inside?  What do the people we'd relate to as protagonists do?  Do they have trouble escaping the place they're in now?  With the Way being what it is, why haven't stories leaked out?

I wasn't a Tuluk fan after it became a city, but it's still an important part of the Armageddon story, and to me its closure has created new intrigue.

Tuluk is not an interesting writing prompt because you are virtually allowed to go in and out of the city as you please and spend your vacation there and then come back and tell all your buddies in Allanak that you were in Tuluk for Fall break. There's nothing that prevents anyone from saying they've spent time in Tuluk, you just can't go in CODEDLY.

You're not allowed to specify what was going on in there either, though, because staff haven't given a hard answer as to what's going on, so... Yeah. You visited. But you're not quite sure what happened, you guess?  :o

Quote from: Malken on October 21, 2018, 08:36:35 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 21, 2018, 01:19:25 AM
Tuluk's an interesting writing prompt.  What's going on inside?  What do the people we'd relate to as protagonists do?  Do they have trouble escaping the place they're in now?  With the Way being what it is, why haven't stories leaked out?

I wasn't a Tuluk fan after it became a city, but it's still an important part of the Armageddon story, and to me its closure has created new intrigue.

Tuluk is not an interesting writing prompt because you are virtually allowed to go in and out of the city as you please and spend your vacation there and then come back and tell all your buddies in Allanak that you were in Tuluk for Fall break. There's nothing that prevents anyone from saying they've spent time in Tuluk, you just can't go in CODEDLY.

AFAIK, the gates are shut and no one goes in or out anymore. There was a period of time where some PCs from Tuluk could virtually visit Tuluk (?) for some unknown reason, but now? I think it's just closed.

Quote from: Hauwke on October 20, 2018, 05:11:18 PM

Quote from: Bebop on October 20, 2018, 04:14:25 PM

Quote from: number13 on October 20, 2018, 03:13:38 AM
Stuff

Y'all are really too much. 

First roughneck says he never saw Tuluk as gritty.  Which is fair but based only on his experience.  So I'm like let me pull back the veil.  Here's where thrice shit got real in Tuluk.

And someone else comes in taking my experiences that actually happened and just saying well ... Well those could've happened in Nak and maybe even better. ::) But they didn't.  And I could elaborate about why that would be unlikely but I'm not going to because some of y'all are so dead set on being contrarions it's like arguing with Evangelical Christians.

I post some fun memories, tipping my hat to Tuluk's realness and then you take those experiences and just decided some pie in the sky alternative could've happened in Allanak and it would've been better.  Like, you're missing the point of my post completely.

I was responding to the idea that Tuluk wasn't gritty.  My point was to show it was gritty when played well and I think I did that.  I don't have time for all of the hypothetical situations you guys want to dream up to try to diminish my point and the cool shit I've experienced in game.  I was making my point.  We're not even having the same conversation.  My point was not could this happen to some degree in Nak?  My point was cool shit actually happened in Tuluk with it's own Tuluki nuance.

Stop pigeonholing everything I say and get with the spirit of my post.  Thanks.

This is why posting on the GDB is so pointless.

1 - Cool shit happened in Tuluk.

2- No, it was never gritty and should've been hard to be polite instead of a bunch of sycophants.

1- Oh, it was like that.  It was gritty and a struggle to be polite when shit got real.  Here's a few of my examples that are pretty good and I look back on fondly.

2- WELL, that could have happened in Allanak, maybe even BETTER.

1 - WTF, I thought you just wanted proof of Tuluk's merits, so I'm giving you some based on real experiences.

2- Well, it all would've just been better in Allanak.  It could've happened in AlLAnAk.

1- I wasn't saying some version of it couldn't have happened in Allanak, I was trying to respond to your original point that Tuluk wasn't raw, but then when I proved it was, seems like you're just changing arguments with hypothetical instead of what actually went down.

Get off your own high horse, they said it COULD happen in Nak, not that it would happen better.

Quote from: number13You can do the same thing, I argue better

Quote from: Bebop on October 21, 2018, 10:36:43 PM

Quote from: number13You can do the same thing, I argue better

One of my longest lived characters was in UnderTuluk. I don't spend a lot of worry over UT being gone, because I understand why it was closed, and I can do similar concepts in the Rinth.

Another one of my longest lived characters was a so-called Shadow Artist in Tuluk, who, over the course of his relatively long life, received exactly zero shadow artist contracts. That doesn't seem to me to be an outlier. By contrast, I could roll a pickpocket/miscreant/whatever in Allanak today and be doing sneaky stuff for a templar or southern noble tomorrow.

Anything cool that happened in Tuluk probably happened better in Allanak already. Kryl invasion? Allanak already has spiders. Templar orders that go against gamewide docs? Chad mixed sex Allanaki templars. Literally the only thing that Tuluk did better was letting nobles practice their skills.

Magickal hate? Tuluki ranger magicker hunters were a pox on the game. Allanak does it better with exclusion and exploitation of the Gemmed. Arena games? At least people got fucking killed in Allanak's arena regularly. I guess there was a lot of betrayal in Tuluk, because everyone was always mad at everyone else and making veiled insults about whoever their latest waifu fucked without including them in the cuddle puddle.

Don't get me started on bards in Allanak actually having to be good for elves to feel bad about stealing their lute whereas in Tuluk that bard has been alive for three RL years so you have to pretend to like their terrible poetry or you get disappeared. Though I suppose that is oppressive, which is cool, it's jarring. Just like most everything else in Tuluk was with how much it fuckin sucked.

Also whatever the hell the Red Sun Commons were for with its, what, one shop and one clay pit? Tuluk's bazaar was organized decently and close to a tavern, which I found smart. The Kuraci bar being in the ass end of the city was a poor mapping choice.

Tuluk was an exercise in looking at everything Allanak did and going "let's do it different" without stopping to look at if what was going in Allanak worked well. Nobles having to be decadent, useless fops to a man (except for Tor(which is closed isn't it???)) is a poor Allanaki design choice for example, in my opinion. Templars are sick though.

I did like Tuluki templar kung fu even though my sole experience with it was dodging a finger thing before getting 1HKO by a beefed up 5-year half-giant player Sun Legion member of whatever they were called.

It's not Allanak is amazing. It's alright. It's okay. Which is why it hasn't been messed with overly much. At least people within Tuluk (and Staffing it) took some risks in trying to make it a more fun place to play.

Allanak -- You can keep your farts.

I'll never get the gritty Armageddon feels from Tuluk. It was always Arm Lite. But that's just me.

One thing this thread has made me realize is how much some people still want to play there. It must be frustrating. It's a game, and I think the more we give people options to do what they like, the more people will play, within reason.

Maybe the problem with Tuluk is that it eas trying to be too big, perfect and immersive. If we let it be smaller and less perfect in detail, I think it would work better.

Either way, let these poor bastards and bastardettes eat their cake.

I used to play in Tuluk almost exclusively. I would love to oppress the masses once again with my shitty poetry. That said, I'd rather have one full and hopping city than two spread thinly. ^{Maybe if we shut down the desert elf tribes??}

nevermind

Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

Quote from: Rumor on October 23, 2018, 09:28:10 AM
Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

It would be nice if there was some public document backing this up, because right now as far as I know, the latest public document contradicts this. Historically speaking, it isn't unusual for one staff member to say one thing, and another to say something different. That's why published docs are sort of the gold standard.

Quote from: Heade on October 23, 2018, 03:31:24 PM

Quote from: Rumor on October 23, 2018, 09:28:10 AM
Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

It would be nice if there was some public document backing this up, because right now as far as I know, the latest public document contradicts this. Historically speaking, it isn't unusual for one staff member to say one thing, and another to say something different. That's why published docs are sort of the gold standard.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.

You would think that would be clear-cut, but responses in requests et al clarified that traffic went in and out. I even escorted a few people "to" Tuluk and the gates were animated as opening long enough to let them in.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 23, 2018, 05:47:35 PM

Quote from: Heade on October 23, 2018, 03:31:24 PM

Quote from: Rumor on October 23, 2018, 09:28:10 AM
Just noting here that Tuluk is currently not a location you can visit virtually or otherwise. It is closed off to outsiders. This was relayed to me through a character report reply from staff due to a character returning after a hiatus and looking for a meaningful explanation as to why/where they went for so long. I understand this isn't the main topic at hand, but it has been brought up several times here.

It would be nice if there was some public document backing this up, because right now as far as I know, the latest public document contradicts this. Historically speaking, it isn't unusual for one staff member to say one thing, and another to say something different. That's why published docs are sort of the gold standard.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.

This isn't the latest news, though.

There is a GDB post from after this event stating that the gates were re-opened virtually, and that PCs could "virtually" visit Tuluk, but that it was codedly closed. As far as I know, that is the latest information we have on the status of Tuluk.

Suggestions for keeping northern flavor alive:

A 'Tuluki embassy' in Allanak or Luir's with 1 or 2 sponsored roles.

A 'customs office' just outside of Tuluk where you are eternally given the Kafkaesque runaround for trying to get a Visitor's Permit, which most certainly exists, and is Most Certainly Given Out All the Time, but for some reason no one can quite seem to get one, no matter how much they bribe the locals, who are however more than happy to accept your goods at bottom-of-the-barrel prices to sell inside the city, since after all you did come all this way, didn't you?

A new Tuluki fort in some neutral zone.

A 'Crusade of the Radiant' which is actually a wave of shambling malcontents that Tuluk is getting rid of in the name of 'justice.'  See the Children's Crusade and Iranian landmine-clearing kids and similar.

Quote from: Erythil on October 23, 2018, 11:42:05 PM
Suggestions for keeping northern flavor alive:

A 'Tuluki embassy' in Allanak or Luir's with 1 or 2 sponsored roles.

A new Opening the Tuluki fort in some neutral zone. south of the span.

I think just these two things would help tremendously, fighting against the idea that Tuluk is a non-entity, and has no interest in keeping Luir's out of Allanaki control.

It would return a bit of Tuluki flavor to the game, give people a small amount of Tuluki-flavored support, and return a bit of faction politics to the game. I'd probably shoot for 2 sponsored roles:

1. A Tuluki Templar acting as ambassador to Luir's, and
2. a Sun Legion Sergeant(or their equivalent) operating out of the Fort, and allowed to recruit players into the Legions.

Having even a single Tuluki political character in the game, along with a military presence in the north would give us back a bit of that north/south tension, even if staff didn't want to open Tuluk proper.

Both of these roles/Sun Legion could be staffed by whoever currently staffs Luir's based stuff.

Quote from: Heade on October 24, 2018, 04:36:59 AM

Quote from: Erythil on October 23, 2018, 11:42:05 PM
Suggestions for keeping northern flavor alive:

A 'Tuluki embassy' in Allanak or Luir's with 1 or 2 sponsored roles.

A new Opening the Tuluki fort in some neutral zone. south of the span.

I think just these two things would help tremendously, fighting against the idea that Tuluk is a non-entity, and has no interest in keeping Luir's out of Allanaki control.

It would return a bit of Tuluki flavor to the game, give people a small amount of Tuluki-flavored support, and return a bit of faction politics to the game. I'd probably shoot for 2 sponsored roles:

1. A Tuluki Templar acting as ambassador to Luir's, and
2. a Sun Legion Sergeant(or their equivalent) operating out of the Fort, and allowed to recruit players into the Legions.

Having even a single Tuluki political character in the game, along with a military presence in the north would give us back a bit of that north/south tension, even if staff didn't want to open Tuluk proper.

Both of these roles/Sun Legion could be staffed by whoever currently staffs Luir's based stuff.

I'd be alright with this idea. Definitely not in Allanak, I doubt Tek is the negotiating type, with Heade on that one. If the Legion got big enough, i.e. enough PC's, they could harass Allanak's forces in the desert, etc. Potential for fun play.

+1 the fort idea. That's kick ass and much more manageable. Morins + that fort is plenty of real estate to start fostering that 'northern oppressive culture'

Imagine the sun king army patrolling around the Gol, preaching about Muk being dicks to everyone without a star, while super helpful to anyone who has one, encouraging people to act like Northie zealots again with all that snobbish pride and stuff because His Light is "protecting" them. Reporting stuff to the army and kissing ass. Drinking tea in Morins and making arrows for them and doing all that surface level North Korean shit because they don't want the army to disappear them in the grass.

Yes. Do it. Do it now.

Tuluk "satellite offices" scattered around the north:

The fort south of the span.
Morin's.
A new small location somewhere between the North Road and the volcano
Something in/near the grasslands, or due south of Tuluk between the city wall and the Red Desert. (or both)

I wish you could start to let people play in Tuluk--- but keep the gates closed so they can't leave.

It would actually, really be truly oppressive then, even for people who follow all the rules and smile and nod unfailingly at all the right people. It would bring an inability to move that doesn't exist in the game--- muls are the closest to this and all they really have to do is avoid the cities. They aren't 'trapped' anywhere. They aren't 'ensconced safely within the best city in the world, like a mother's warm embrace around her child' with no way of leaving.

I know that's not the point of opening the city for play, but I'm going to think about it now.

It would mean most people would have to join clans, but you know what? My last month in Tuluk was a social hell, with everyone begging me please, please join their clan. Its actually getting quite similar in Allanak, but I have options for staying out of the way now, that weren't really possible in Tuluk.

I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 05, 2018, 06:45:10 AM
I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

It was open with less active players.

It was closed to allow staff to "better focus on player stories".

Having an extra 50 people might legitimize the need for it, but the staff won't open it until they are ready.

Quote from: Riev on November 05, 2018, 09:42:17 AM

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 05, 2018, 06:45:10 AM
I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

It was open with less active players.

It was closed to allow staff to "better focus on player stories".

Having an extra 50 people might legitimize the need for it, but the staff won't open it until they are ready.

Speaking from a retail business owner standpoint I can tell you that consolidation does not always work.

I own a record store, and you have to think about what are the core "departments" so to speak of your business.

One of our stores has been around 40 years. I wouldn't suddenly stop selling classic rock because we're low on money and turn us into an industrial music store or focus on Beyonce and Taylor Swift while isolating the guys that have been around buying from us for forty years.  Then tell them, yo if enough college students and millennials come in and buy our new stuff and we start making more money we'll be bring classic rock back.  Ya'll just come back when/if ever that happens cool?  I would expect to hear a resounding, "Nah."  And that's making it G-rated.

Doing this exact thing with Tuluk isn't the greatest idea.  This was too severe a consolidation.  You took a core part of the game, "your business" so to speak.  You took away the other half of two city-states and you're acting like we need to "earn" it back.  The opposite has been achieved where the player-base has now shrunk further for people not as interested in the game with that massive fixture taken away.  That needs to be acknowledged and Tuluk needs to be reopened.  People will migrate back naturally once that occurs and plot lines are developed.  Holding your breath "until you get more  oxygen" logic isn't going to work.  People don't need to "earn" a fun experience.  It needs to be offered and built upon.  You have people that were here for literal decades (just like one of our shops has been around for decades), many of which who preferred Tuluk and you kind of tossed them to the wind.

The other backwards logic happening is Imms are becoming more involved in every facet of the game from character creation, to leaders, to plots and so on.  This is going to increase Imm workload not decrease it.

In retail, you're playing a constant game wondering what to emphasize, what to increase, what new stuff to get in and what to get rid of all together.  But you do not get rid of one of your cornerstore pieces and isolate a massive part of your customer base and think that's going to grow you. 

You find a way to acknowledge your core, your trunk of your tree --- if you will --- and grow from that.  You might snip roots and branches to get it to the look the way you want, but you don't chop half the trunk away and expect the tree to grow instead of die.

Closing Tuluk was too massive of a consolidation and it isn't working for a lot of people.  It needs to be reopened on matter of principal but also to help numbers return and add a depth and breadth to the game.  Continuing to say we'll give it back if the game grows, is not fair and it is not a strategy that's going to work because a huge amount of players have dropped off because this area of the game isn't open and it had a very unique play style and many of the players that remain admit to feeling resigned and jarred by it's closer.

Like I'm not the biggest classic rock fan but if I come into my favorite record store and I can nab some NIN but I can't also grab some Creedence Clearwater while I'm already there I'm gonna be like hmm... I guess.  There's a thing as being too overly specialized just as there is a risk of being too overly broad.  But you can not treat half your trunk like it's a branch.  Tuluk was not a small little clan, it was an entire city state.  A host of clans and areas for the GMH as well.  It needs to be brought back sooner rather than later.

Quote from: Riev on November 05, 2018, 09:42:17 AM

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 05, 2018, 06:45:10 AM
I don't know how many times it has to be said that we need a larger player base.

Go forth and push Armageddon like the local crack dealer. Advertise! The mud connector, reddit, facebook, tribbett, Instagram, larp....ing things!  Wherever!

Get 50 other players and I bet they reopen it.

It was open with less active players.

It was closed to allow staff to "better focus on player stories".

Having an extra 50 people might legitimize the need for it, but the staff won't open it until they are ready.

I don't know that I would phrase it as such. I'd be far less diplomatic and say Tuluk sucked the life out of everyone trying to keep it alive.  We didn't have the resources to keep both places. 

I know that it's unpopular to be direct but the fact that ALLANAK was chosen is telling on what Armageddon's theme is.

QuoteThe effort involved has been high.  The payoff has been mixed due to lessened player impact.  It would be fair to say that one other negative (on players and staff) would be vocal detractors of player and staff efforts in this area.

That said I think Tuluk should reopen but how do we make it as gritty as it was supposed to be?


Tuluk as it existed softened the theme and it was a haven for that side's.  That's what the loudest complaint from players has always been. When it returns I'm hopeful it won't be.

We need 50 more addicts orrrr 50 ex players to return. 

Is there any reason, beyond headcrabs, that it couldn't be opened without staff support?

That is to say, the gates are open, PCs can visit, and hang around, travel to and from, with the simple out of game acceptance, that staff do no support it (no indie clans, no proper clans, no sponsor roles, no support, beyond basic bug fixes, etcs etcs). It works in Red Storm, and there is, imo, a fairly sizeable portion of players, who prefer playing, without the meddling of sponsor roles, and their snowflake need to micro people. Those people already, don't join clans, or interact with those kinds of roles, so it isn't as if it'll be a drain on Allanak/Luirs clan pops.

Call it, an experiment. Players can play there, and any plots going on, are pure player, with no staff involvement, no sponsor roles, or special benefits for anyone.

If nothing else, it would at least eliminate the ooc unknown, of wtf is up, with Tuluk.

Don't really think we need to bag on sponsored roles OOCly for making an effort at involving players in their schemes.

I think, we can bag on some of them, just a little.

Quote from: Vex on November 05, 2018, 02:46:22 PM
Is there any reason, beyond headcrabs, that it couldn't be opened without staff support?

That is to say, the gates are open, PCs can visit, and hang around, travel to and from, with the simple out of game acceptance, that staff do no support it (no indie clans, no proper clans, no sponsor roles, no support, beyond basic bug fixes, etcs etcs). It works in Red Storm, and there is, imo, a fairly sizeable portion of players, who prefer playing, without the meddling of sponsor roles, and their snowflake need to micro people. Those people already, don't join clans, or interact with those kinds of roles, so it isn't as if it'll be a drain on Allanak/Luirs clan pops.

Call it, an experiment. Players can play there, and any plots going on, are pure player, with no staff involvement, no sponsor roles, or special benefits for anyone.

If nothing else, it would at least eliminate the ooc unknown, of wtf is up, with Tuluk.

It doesn't do much more than Morin's if there's no support, other than just having more rooms.

No support means no Templars. No Soldiers. No ability to get let out of Jail, or interact with a Sergeant/Officer/Templar to bribe your way out.

No support means being unable to talk to a single sponsored-role-required position in the city. You cannot be the antithesis to Allanak if you have no PCs who can even remotely control a semblance of an army.

It works pretty well, for Red Storm?

I guess, if people insist on having all of the cake, and eating it too, all or nothing, it'll remain the awkward, closed down black hole in the north. Simply having it open, imo, at least lets people include it, or exist as Tuluki pcs, without being stuck in Morins or Luirs, as their only options.

Morins doesn't even have apartments, which brick walls a lot of player endeavors.

Luirs is, basically, little Allanak.

In this case, something, seems a lot better than nothing. If people want to play legitimate Tuluks, let them do it out of Tuluk. I mean... its just sitting there... perfectly serviceable... treat it like a really big Red Storm, and leave it up to players. Doesn't seem too complicated, to me.

Quote from: Vex on November 06, 2018, 03:16:34 PM
It works pretty well, for Red Storm?

I guess, if people insist on having all of the cake, and eating it too, all or nothing, it'll remain the awkward, closed down black hole in the north. Simply having it open, imo, at least lets people include it, or exist as Tuluki pcs, without being stuck in Morins or Luirs, as their only options.

Morins doesn't even have apartments, which brick walls a lot of player endeavors.

Luirs is, basically, little Allanak.

In this case, something, seems a lot better than nothing. If people want to play legitimate Tuluks, let them do it out of Tuluk. I mean... its just sitting there... perfectly serviceable... treat it like a really big Red Storm, and leave it up to players. Doesn't seem too complicated, to me.

Red Storm isn't Allanak's arch nemesis. The Sandlord isn't The Sun King.


If Tuluk were to be opened without support you'd ALL be bitching about it six months in how it's become "little allanak" because there's no law handling things. Or it feels half assed. Or it becomes where everyone who is playing against the norm goes to do their dirty deeds. It feels so out of character just thinking about it. 

Thank God staff already said nothing's happening in flowerland for at least six months.