ReOpening Tuluk: An HRPT Idea for Growth/Interest

[tapas]

Where are all the bagman raids? The machine needs fresh meat.

Also I'm holding out hope that Tuluk is reopened as a dystopian nightmare where horrors roam the streets and survivors huddle in their dwellings. It would not be a starting location. And it would be as about as dangerous as the silt sea to traverse but players might come to loot and scavenge or to battle The Nightmare On The Planar Crossroads.

If nothing else, a staff supported clan similar to the one in Redstorm would be nice.

[Synthesis]

Another idea I have is that before the gates closed it looks like the Tenneshi and Winrothl went HAM. 

I like this change.  So make water more pricey in Tuluk.  None of this half price of the water in Nak cheese.  But water is more plentiful in the North?  Yah.  And the thing about Tennesh is they don't effing care.  Because they hold a monopoly.  So, yeah make it so people can still forage and greb and lumberjack but if they want water, they're going to be paying more.  But that might cause people to beg and make the streets look cluttered and dingy like Nak.  Except we can't have that so anyone that can not provide for themselves finds "rest" in Muk's Eternal light etc.  There's so many ways to play it that are just as edgy and thematic as Nak with a different angle to it.

There's so much you could do with going back to Muk being the Great Uniter.  The pride Tuluki's have after over throwing the Occupation.  Their desire for vengeance.  A purist mindset focused on a perfectionist level of breeding and art.  Bloodless deaths and ritualistic tribal sort of base underlying it all when blood is spilled, and lives taken.

I played a Driamusek bard once that I based of off Japanese geisha culture which has a lot to do with hierarchy and ritualism and it was a lot of fun.  I have so many ideas.  I wanna halp.

Have Tuluk be the eptiome (at surface level) of collectivist society.

Collectivism is a political theory associated with communism. More broadly, it is the idea that people should prioritize the good of society over the welfare of the individual.

Collectivism — so closely related to the word collection — has to do with political theories that put the group before the individual. In a collectivist system, power should be in the hands of the people as a whole, not in the hands of a few powerful folks. Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. Ideally, in a collectivist society, decisions benefit all the people. This is a difficult idea to put into practice, as seen in the attempted collectivist society of Soviet communism.

It's like ew you're wearing jozhal, that's a Southron material.  Why aren't you buying local?  Why aren't you supporting the city's economy.  Anything remotely southern should be looked down upon.  Tuluk should feel very purist and insular, obsessively and dangerously so.

Before part of the problem is it was to fluffy.  The thing about subtly is it's subtle.  I do think subtly would still be a thing, it's so integral to Tuluki culture but hike up water prices, and give some solid documentation the emphasizes the cultist mindset of integrate or be disappeared.  This is Soviet Russia, you are being watched, everyone is so nice - but you can't actually trust anyone.  That's what was cool about Tuluk, but I think with some tweaks it could be made more so.

Also important is to make it a challenge for Southrons to just "hang out" in Tuluk and enjoy the cheap silks and wood.  If you're a Southron or a half breed you should stand out like a sore thumb.  No accepting half-elves into the legion and shit anymore.  No more cheap water.  No more Southrons leeching off the system.  Going to Tuluk as a Southron should feel risky as all hell.

What's the point of potentially expanding the playerbase if they occupy two mutually exclusive groups?

The other group of players that loved Tuluk and quit is -already- playing another game.  Bringing them back to play Armageddon: Tuluk would be utterly pointless.

[Heade]

What's the point of potentially expanding the playerbase if they occupy two mutually exclusive groups?

The other group of players that loved Tuluk and quit is -already- playing another game.  Bringing them back to play Armageddon: Tuluk would be utterly pointless.

Sorta on the fence here, whether I agree with you or not. Relations between southerns and tuluki's, in my opinion, should be tense, but not non-existent.

In that way, there is a separation, but not exactly exclusivity. I like the idea of them considering themselves general adversaries, though. It gives allanak an outside threat instead of having almost all conflict be internal. I want internal AND external conflict.

[MeTekillot]

MeTekillot Is Quitting NicotineToday at 7:13 AM
@AdamBlue no
If we got full subguild elementalists i would want them to have to do weekly character reports
and have to be heavily involved in magick shit instead of just being power rangers


MeTekillot Is Quitting NicotineToday at 7:15 AM
no i want them to be magickal power rangers
not the local badass mercenary
i want them enslaved to the will of their elemental aspect the same way gemmed and templars are
and if your element severs its connection to you because you don't do what it says you fucking die
maybe something that subguild elementalists could strive towards
the elements should extend tendrils of elemental power offer to their touched and magickers the same way dragonthralls get shit
but like it's something you'd have to pursue after twinking out your current spells and sending in a couple of IC years of power seeking and shit
staff call for apps for 8-12 magickers who lead a plot to destroy tuluk
then they turn on each other and the northlands becomes a verdant death trap of occasional guerilla attacks by elementalists

[Veselka]

It's a bit of a catch 22. Do I want Tuluk to be reopened? Of course. But it was closed for several reasons that haven't changed, and if anything, have developed into larger issues.

1. Tuluk has been closed for IC reasons, not OOC reasons. This seemed intended to allow for the ability to return Tuluk into play without it being OOCly retconned or actually destroyed beyond belief IG. But it has served as a white elephant in the game world for so long, that re-opening it will require some careful consideration. A lot of questions will be asked, and would need answers, as to what happened leading up to its closure, why some people were allowed to virtually enter Tuluk and others were not, and what the circumstances of its gates reopening would be. That's obvious enough, but it is actual work for Staff and not to be taken lightly.

2. Staff Workload and Turnover. With Tuluk open, the Staffing teams (at least in their current paradigm) required an Administrator, and 2-3 Storytellers, to oversee that area of the world. I've mentioned this in another thread about Tuluk, but basically I think there was this idea that the player base needed to be consolidated, but more than that, the Staff workload and oversight needed to be consolidated for their own workflow and ability to monitor the game.

Staff Turnover is also something to really consider here -- That hasn't changed, and if anything, the pool of available players to become Staffers has shrunk. Another thing that people rarely consider is that Staff Members can be some of the better players of the game. By better, I don't mean superior, I mean to say that they play the Great Byn Sergeant, or the Plotty Schemey Great Noble everyone loved, or the Fantastic Villain Defiler. When they go upstairs, that player goes upstairs as well. They can do great things as Staffers, but I also wonder if sometimes picking the cream of the crop doesn't hurt the game environment as well.

3. Major Staff Proponents for Tuluk's Closure no longer on Staff. Nyr and Adhira are no longer active Producers of the game but consultants now, and it appears the only Producer remaining that was behind this decision is Nessalin. From what I gathered at the time, even Northern Staff/Administrators were not aware of the decision to close Tuluk, it came from the Producers after they spoke behind closed doors. Of those Producers that made this decision, two of them are no longer involved actively with the game. This alone makes me wonder if revisiting Tuluk would be worth the conversation.

Tuluk was working very well leading right up to the announcement of its closure. Massive RPTs attended by 15-25 people were regularly announced and happening. Things were not what they seemed -- Problems needed to be addressed by the Templarate and Nobles, and the Commoners were certainly their willing pawns. War was on the horizon, and camps were being built and attended to for the first time since the Copper War. There was an energy in the air that things were finally going right for Tuluk. And then, it was closed.

4. Staff from the days of yore. From what I gather, a few of those on Staff (including Brokkr and Seidhr) were big fans of Tuluk during the Rebellion years, and perhaps not big fans of the 2006+ 'Tuluk Reinvisioning' and the countless documentation revamps and attempts to make Tuluk work. I don't blame them. Tuluk has always been an unwieldy, top-heavy, difficult to tackle problem. So I don't imagine Tuluk will just re-open one day without massive changes, and again, that's an assload of work for Staff to accomplish, when they already have enough problems/issues to tackle with the current game environment. It's even more to ask of people who never really liked Tuluk in the first/last place.

5. Alientation of players. The sudden announcement of Tuluk's closure definitely put a sour taste in the mouth of many players who enjoyed playing there the most. That sort of sour taste is hard to get rid of, and even if Tuluk were reopened and changed for the better, I imagine many of those players wouldn't simply jump back into playing ArmageddonMUD, and if they did, they might be waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under them again.

6. Consolidation of the player base. This was a good idea in theory. Jam all the people together, and you'll have more MCB, right? I think this part of the experiment has gone a bit sideways. Part of what kept me playing the game was the ability to dream up the next role. "Oh well, if I die I'll just play in Allanak or maybe the Labyrinth, I haven't been there in years." or "I'm sick and tired of the overtness of Allanak, I think it's time to play in Tuluk again." The game has homogenized to the point of feeling very one-note in Allanak and beyond in my opinion. Do I think it has everything to do with player consolidation? Not really. But I do think it is a factor in what is happening in the game world. I can really see PCs struggling to try and derive meaning from why they play -- Why they endlessly go out to hunt or attempt to raid people or beat off the raiders or kill Gith. It seems like an endless loop, and while Armageddon was always a sort of cycle, there were stories in those cycles worth retelling. Right now, that may be the case in some social circles, but not in any I've seen in quite a time.

Does this have to do with Tuluk being closed? In part, but I can't say it's even the major part. Tuluk served as a foil to Allanak, and in having a foil, there was an idea of something greater going on. Schemes and politics, real or imagined, were happening, right? With Tuluk out of the picture, the game has felt much smaller, simply because more players are jammed pack next to each other, and plotting against each other, drawing the game world from a larger sort of story/plot into a much more interpersonal small world of plots.



In conclusion, do I think reopening Tuluk would be fun? For some people who either saw past its shortcomings or embraced them, of course. Would it be a good idea? No. I felt that Tuluk had finally turned a corner right before it closed, but Staff seemed to have a more big picture idea of why Tuluk wasn't working over the course of many years. I feel this was in part due to Staffers of Yore having different memories than the player base of the times when Tuluk really, really, really wasn't working, and were using this as evidence for its closure. In a perfect world, all of the issues they/others have with Tuluk would be addressed head on rather than brushing them under the rug. But it isn't a perfect world, and time is finite. I would rather Staff focus on what they gain enjoyment from than bashing their head against the 'Fix Tuluk' wall again. Maybe that means crafting a new city state, or opening a couple different village outposts. Or maybe it means doing nothing at all.

The only thing I can think of working is something that Bebop mentioned -- Outsourcing. Talk with former Staff and players in Tuluk and basically try to subcontract them into re-opening Tuluk. Assign one or two Administrators to oversee their work and offer input as well as all final decision making. In essence, minimize the workload from current Staff, while relying on these sub-contractors to do the heavy lifting. But even that is a sticky wicket. Who are these former Staffers, and what are their agendas, if any? Who are these former players, and what are their agendas, if any? It's a lot to ask of Staff, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Kismetic]

I don't know that there needs to be special roles and an HRPT, but if Tuluk was opened again, I would probably become an active player again -- for better or worse. 

I haven't enjoyed Allanak, to be honest.  It's grit for grit's sake.  Like the kid who just learned how to cuss.  I always jived with Tuluk.  And the way it was shut down, it was ...  not good. 

By bringing it back, too, I hope you don't mean this:



It seemed to be trending to such a good place with the consolidation of the Templar ranks and the Levies, and then it was lights out, gates closed.  Bring those things back.  Bring back the Bardic Circle.  The culture and the history.  And yes, bring back the rivalry, in a big way. 

Remember when people used to get butthurt on the GDB because my city X and your city Y?  It was a glorious time for MUDs.  Bring it back!

[tapas]

What about a Faithful and his dedicated band of rangers that patrol gol krathu and hunt gicks? Base them in one of the fortresses in the area.

(We can call them rangers now that there is no ranger class.)

[Cabooze]

What about a Faithful and his dedicated band of rangers that patrol gol krathu and hunt gicks? Base them in one of the fortresses in the area.

(We can call them rangers now that there is no ranger class.)

This is actually not a bad idea... Sponsored roles. Perhaps able to recruit Tuluki-inked in the region as adjunct militia on an unofficial basis.

[Aruven]

I think my consideration around this is larger to the entire game world.

My disconnect is where there's this illusion that players drive the game, and dictate outcomes of plots and story arcs.

What really happens is, all the condition for the desired outcomes are gamed, and its a rarity things do not play out as planned. I don't in theory have a problem with this, but ultimately it appears bad for the game world in my opinion.


Tuluk has every opportunity to be a really fun, well thought out society that has a perfect storyline to come back into things. As far as I can tell, they got betrayed and left to dry by just about every ally they had in the last HRPT or two, they've gone through things as a society that if they survived, would make them ridiculously strong as a cultural unit. Think Germany coming out of WWI and going into WWII: From 0 to 100 real fast, hell bent on making everyone around them pay for their downtrodden years.


I don't need to see a full blown all wheels turning city again, as much as I might like it. What I would like to see is:


- Continuation or closure of the Jihaen/Lirathan struggles (Maybe merging orders was this? It got the OOC result, however there were YEARS AND KING'S AGES of machinations and manipulations between them. I'd like Jiyan-Sel to find some form of continuation. That's a selfish want.


-I want the spirit and playability of the north open again. Call me crazy, but leaving no apartments, limited markets, a bunch of open plot questions, and grey areas, sure as hell seems like it was intended people don't concentrate on that area of the game.

Honestly what the north requires is for staff to simply not say "No". If the players start rolling up northern characters and trying to carry the story, fuel them with some tidbits that'll help fit a reasonable story together. Example:
5 PCs are trying to get answers and do something, okay, i'll have them interact with <made up persona to be animated here> to interact with them and fill in a few questions and help them set the scope of this. Let players run with and build the conflict. There are a few IC explanations that need to be thought out and disseminated into the IC world but it theoretically is ready for interaction on a game changing scale with the players.

I really liked the Egyptian-Aztec leaning stuff, the Lyksaen culture that always existed. If its needed open up a builder project players can fill position on to submit clothing items, weapons styles, some room changes. Let the players do most of the groundwork to limit staff workload as much as possible. I bet there's enough northern players frothing at the mouth to play tuluki-style arm again that it wouldn't be a problem setting the atmosphere.

The worst thing that happens, is it doesn't work out well and then we go back to the singular Allanaki vision again. As far as i'm concerned its almost a 'what do you have to lose' type of situation.

[seidhr]

So there's been a number of people inquiring in the request tool about playing Tuluk based roles and suddenly I see what stirred it up, this thread.

Before I say anything else, I want to say that we are not currently allowing Tuluki based roles beyond just the generic "Yo I'm from Tuluk, Yo!" home city option in character generation.  No escaped templars, no underground chosen, etc.  Sorry.

I will also say that staff acknowledge that the current dynamic, as one player put it, is "the elephant in the room."  Changing it would also be a pretty significant thing, so while I think staff would love to do something awesome with Tuluk - sorry, it's gonna take time, if we do it at all.  I just oversaw a change to Luirs that was way, way smaller and it took a long time to even get that put through, for comparison's sake.

The thing about Tuluk - this is just me talking here, not an official staff statement, but someone who was on staff when Tuluk closed, before, and since that time.

Tuluk has this extremely complicated and pretty cool documentation that a lot of players just don't understand.  They're used to Allanak where everything is pretty transparent *boom* in your face style everything.  Yes, yes - we all joke about Tuluk and its subtleties, but it really does have them.  And to be blunt, a lot of people just never understood that or played up to that standard.  Then there were the people that absolutely did play up to that level, and even beyond, but I would say they were the exception rather than the rule.

Controversial opinion warning:  I don't think most players could be bothered to understand (or read - maybe a tldr type thing) the documentation for Tuluk, and therefore it never really worked.

I think that a lot of people just got the idea that Tuluk was like a more sophisticated Allanak where resources weren't scarce and there was lots of marble and silk and finely-carved wooden this-and-thats and every single person walking around was kind of a faux noble.  Even the dwarves and the breeds and the dung sweepers.  None of these things are really supposed to be true, but the way people played it, it sure seemed like it.

Tuluk was supposed to have all the grit of Allanak, it just happened behind closed doors.  While yes, they had more of certain resources - like wood, they would have been short on others.

To me - Tuluk was supposed to be like Pyongyang in North Korea.  Polished perhaps on the outside, intended to be a showcase city - but the people living there were suffering, barely had enough food to eat, and would turn on their neighbors in a heartbeat if it meant getting a leg up and maybe an extra dose of rations from the authorities, or even better, a better apartment or employment with the state.  Instead you had half-elves manufacturing silk dresses by the wagonload and even wearing them, sharing the ubiquitous "nod" with Chosen in taverns - and it was like this big kumbiyah happy family up there.  The whole "North Korea" secret police aspect got swallowed up and was so behind closed doors that nobody ever saw it, and while at least one templar really did bring that to life, the way it was done was stifling to anything of import or even remotely controversial ever happening up there.  (please note my very purposeful omission of details on this matter, with regard to the templarate and how that all worked via mechanics)

The fact that I'm here saying stuff like "To me, Tuluk was like...<xyz>" is symptomatic of the problem.  The documentation was so deep you could get lost in it, and so open to interpretation and vagueries that everyone thought everyone else was wrong about how to play a proper Tuluki.  I don't even begin to pretend to comprehend all of it, and heck - I'm on staff.  I staffed Tuluk.  I've played this game, on and off, since 1997.

The way it panned out is nobody in particular's fault.  At least one heroic effort was made to streamline documentation and make sure people could navigate and understand it, but I would argue that it didn't work.  *shrug*

[MeTekillot]

You heard it, not just from me, but from seidhr. Tuluk did suck.

[Veselka]

So there's been a number of people inquiring in the request tool about playing Tuluk based roles and suddenly I see what stirred it up, this thread.

That speaks volumes though, seidhr.

A number of people have interest in playing in Tuluk, but that has been made impossible (for the time being). For those that do want to play in Tuluk but cannot, the only option is as a Tuluki Refugee, which will have to suffice. I think without an incredibly gung-ho "I get Tuluk" as a Producer wanting to lead the charge in tackling the project, it just isn't going to happen. It appeared to take Nyr and Adhira to close it (with a Shade of Nessalin nod) so I can't see how it wouldn't take the same level of consideration to reopen it. It would be a ton of work, and really, for a game/hobby, it should be something Staff wants to work on.

So, despite the player interest (whether temporary or not), it really rests on Staff interest, and more particularly, Administrator and ultimately Producer interest, to reopen Tuluk or even discuss reopening it.

[Inks]

no tluk pls

[Heade]

yes tluk pls?

[ShaLeah]

We just need another 50 at peak. Get your friends to come on. Go forth and recruit.

[Brokkr]

A couple of months ago I led a Staff side discussion which started with which things to open or close over the next six months or so.  It was pretty encompassing and did manage to go a little beyond that topic, but overall the idea was to set our strategy in that area for a period of time, so that we were directing our efforts in a coherent matter.

Tuluk was discussed. Multiple options for Tuluk were discussed. I'm not going to talk about what decisions were made as part of that process, other than to say Tuluk opening isn't on the docket for the next six months. We have other things we will be trying to get accomplished.

[Marauder Moe]

To me - Tuluk was supposed to be like Pyongyang in North Korea.  Polished perhaps on the outside, intended to be a showcase city - but the people living there were suffering, barely had enough food to eat, and would turn on their neighbors in a heartbeat if it meant getting a leg up and maybe an extra dose of rations from the authorities, or even better, a better apartment or employment with the state. 

If it wasn't that way then, it certainly could be now.  Could rebuild it any way you want, really, but I get and agree that that's not in the cards without a player population resurgence.

In the meanwhile, I think people really just want a little more pronounced presence in the world.  Give some expat character support; even just staff post with a few details about common conditions a refugee might be fleeing from.  You've also got some novel plot opportunities like diplomatic overtures, PvE spy intrigue, "containment failures", etc.  It's also a rare chance to transplant an entire clan, with all their lore and traditions, out of the region.

I'd also like to see, with less of an Allanak vs. Tuluk as polar opposites dynamic, some player-culture shifts down south.  Subtlety and artistry shouldn't have to be bad words in Allanak. 

It would also be cool to have a chance for some major social mobility, ala the Grey Hunt.  Maybe Tek feels like his nobility have gotten a bit complacent and wants to threaten them with new blood by tossing a few writs of elevation to some worthy commoners.  Could you imagine the political chaos that could bring?

[yousuff]

+1 @ Moe

[ShaLeah]

It would also be cool to have a chance for some major social mobility, ala the Grey Hunt.  Maybe Tek feels like his nobility have gotten a bit complacent and wants to threaten them with new blood by tossing a few writs of elevation to some worthy commoners.  Could you imagine the political chaos that could bring?

100 MILLION % against plebs becoming nobility in new ways.  We need social lines in place, not blurred. 

+1 @ Moe

-1 @ you two

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure that a narrow path to cross social lines necessarily blurs them (Tuluk had a much more rigid caste system than Allanak, after all)... but why? 

[ShaLeah]

I'm not sure that a narrow path to cross social lines necessarily blurs them (Tuluk had a much more rigid caste system than Allanak, after all)... but why?

That's a question we can probably live debate for hours, I think.

A newly appointed noble house in Allanak is WAY out of character for Him. That's my primary reason.

[boog]

I don't even think reopening Tuluk is necessary. An explanation or closure is fine too.

And I definitely wouldn't reopen Tuluk without a good story to go with it and why it closed. I hope that if it reopens it isn't some sort of weird retcon, but that there's some meat there.

But I think in the meantime, it's still an awkward void.

[Aruven]

The thing about Tuluk

Thanks for this, I try to consider there was in entire tuluk before what even I saw.

A couple of months ago I led a Staff side discussion which started with which things to open or close over the next six months or so.

Thanks for the update and a bit of insight into what's going on.

[Cind]

The Levies were easily the best part of Tuluk for me. Jesus, I'd love to have them back.

[Cind]

To me - Tuluk was supposed to be like Pyongyang in North Korea.  Polished perhaps on the outside, intended to be a showcase city - but the people living there were suffering, barely had enough food to eat, and would turn on their neighbors in a heartbeat if it meant getting a leg up and maybe an extra dose of rations from the authorities, or even better, a better apartment or employment with the state. 

If it wasn't that way then, it certainly could be now. 

Tuluk was becoming more culturally malleable in its last month of life, and what was changing there was improving. It still felt like Tuluk, but also like a Tuluk that belonged in the world. I suppose it was too late to save its place as a playing location by that point, though.