ReOpening Tuluk: An HRPT Idea for Growth/Interest

[Bebop]

I have an idea for re-opening Tuluk, perhaps even temporarily.

Could the staff commit to codedly re-inserting Tuluk within in 6 months time?

In that time of six months a group of experienced Tuluki players and staff could form a private committee and discuss behind the scenes how to make Tuluk more playable and flesh out the city-state documentation and status quo for it's coded return.  The players would also be chosen to thusly:

2 Templars
2 Chosen
2 Bardic Circle Representatives
6 Commoners

After Tuluk goes back in game the city could stay closed for two weeks while these characters were put into Tuluk to re-established a sort of society between themselves, flesh out that rusty Tuluki RP. 

For the Templars and Nobles, the current Merchant House PC names could be given to start speaking with the GMH about their presence in Tuluk.  After two RL weeks, the gates could be re-opened and people could app in Tuluki PCs.

Maybe put a time limit on it - say one RL year leading up to a big HRPT between Nak and Tuluk.

If it works and both cities are populated and player numbers grow or enjoy Tuluk keep it open.
If it fails and player numbers don't grow, people don't enjoy it etc, re-close Tuluk and consolidate the player base once more.

[Delirium]

Tuluk being open to players or not isn't the problem. The problem is that it effectively ceased to exist and went "virtual".

Freil's Rest is a viable option as a low-key play center, but what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

There are so many options for NPC antagonists that could come out of Tuluk.

Creepy gangs of bagheads, patrolling soldiers...

Basically what we need is a tangible external threat.

Tuluk had the same exact top-heavy problem that some perceive in Allanak right now, and it definitely had the "high PK" moments, not even scratching the surface of the problems with active Lirathans and their stranglehold on plots.

Luir's outpost is basically the new northern city, with the added and arguably interesting dynamic that their "noble Houses" aka the GMH members are also permitted in and are part of the southern city's economy, and vice versa. Maybe it's time for Luir's Outpost to get a shanty town just northwest of the gates, in that open desert area. Lots of people living there... start building out a bit.

tl;dr Opening Tuluk won't solve the problem, and we've tried a lot of times to fix that dead horse. Expand Luir's and Freil's instead, and bring Tuluk back into the story as an NPC threat.

[MeTekillot]

Open Tuluki antagonist roles like you had open gith roles

[Delirium]

Open Tuluki antagonist roles like you had open gith roles

Yeah, this would be cool. I've played a Tuluki antagonist but without support from staff, it is difficult to do.

The official staff line was "we are not supporting any plots that involve Tuluk at this time" which, to be frank, blew chunks.

[MeTekillot]

Yes, I agree, when there is a significant part of the game and lore mostly inaccessible to players that you try to pursue with one of your characters and the staff tell you that it isn't in the game plan at the time it does blow chunks.

[Bebop]

Tuluk being open to players or not isn't the problem. The problem is that it effectively ceased to exist and went "virtual".

Freil's Rest is a viable option as a low-key play center, but what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

There are so many options for NPC antagonists that could come out of Tuluk.

Creepy gangs of bagheads, patrolling soldiers...

Basically what we need is a tangible external threat.

Tuluk had the same exact top-heavy problem that some perceive in Allanak right now, and it definitely had the "high PK" moments, not even scratching the surface of the problems with active Lirathans and their stranglehold on plots.

Luir's outpost is basically the new northern city, with the added and arguably interesting dynamic that their "noble Houses" aka the GMH members are also permitted in and are part of the southern city's economy, and vice versa. Maybe it's time for Luir's Outpost to get a shanty town just northwest of the gates, in that open desert area. Lots of people living there... start building out a bit.

tl;dr Opening Tuluk won't solve the problem, and we've tried a lot of times to fix that dead horse. Expand Luir's and Freil's instead, and bring Tuluk back into the story as an NPC threat.

The game has always had balance issues but Luir's is not Tuluk and never will be. 

Balance issues are not what I'm talking about.  I'm not saying Tuluk didn't have similar issues to Nak.  I'm saying Nak is open and Tuluk is closed. 

Also referring to GMH as their own noble houses makes me cringe and this is exactly part of reason the socio-political dynamic is going against the grain lore wise currently IG.  You've got decades of Tuluk and only a few RL years of the current dynamic.  You have literal RL decades of lore that are being awkwardly smushed to the side and social norms being re-written in real time.  The docs haven't kept up. 

Is making the GMH houses vie for power in Luirs a good idea?  Sure.  It makes sense.  That doesn't mean that it trumps bringing Tuluk back into play.

We don't need more raiders, and small fry antagonists that have Tuluk in their backstory.  We already have a ton of that IG as far as raiders go and we don't need a PVE take over either.

There is a depth that is missing that comes from real socio-political and an economic power struggle between two city states that the GMH should be in between --- not equal to.  You can tell me Luirs is the new northern city all you want but I have almost never played in Luirs.  It doesn't appeal to me.  Tuluk does and it appeals to others as well.

Luir's doesn't have the Poet's Circle or any of the feel or vibe of Tuluk.  It isn't a city-state or empire nor should it be regarded as one. I see the value in having the GMH vie for power in Luirs.  That's a great added dynamic.  But it's not a substitute for Tuluk.

A lot of people play the game for different reasons.  Like WoW.  Am I ever gonna play a panda?  No.  Do I think they're dumb.  Ya.  But there are a whole lot of other people that enjoy it.  And experimenting with an HRPT that would bring Tuluk back with some revisions for playability could be an excellent idea.

I get it, Delirium that you are anti-Tuluk and pro-Luirs.  You played one of the, if not the most notable Luir's PC in the game as Shatuka. 
However, there needs to be room for discourse regarding Tuluk because the games numbers are diminishing and a group of the playerbase that feels lost, burnout and isolated from the OOC culture of the game need to be considered.  A part of the playerbase that is not you and does not feel the same way about Tuluk and Luirs as you do.

This isn't an idea to open Tuluk permanently, this is an idea to better the game, create an HRPT overarching plot to draw people in, and then see if Tuluk can be opened from there.  If it's proven to be better for the game I don't see why it wouldn't be worth a try.  I'm literally saying, hey if this improves the game let's keep it.  The only reason I can see that we wouldn't try something that could work, with no risk to the game is an inherent bias.

[Lizzie]

I think Allanak, the city-state, needs a collective, singular major adversary. It doesn't have to be Tuluk, the other known city-state. It could be the lost city-state of Steinal, that gets discovered somehow. It could be Red Storm East, which undergoes some kind of freakish renaissance. It could be the Tablelands, after "something happens" to cause the elves and tribal humans to rise up against the city in a serious way.

Whatever way that happens, it needs for players to be able to play those adversaries, in some manner. Whether minions of staff avatars, or sponsored "boss" roles for players who already have demonstrated that they can lead, I sincerely don't care which.

But an HRPT isn't an HRPT, IMO, if it doesn't involve a A versus B, where both A & B have significant standing and significant consequences if their side loses.

[Bebop]

I think Allanak, the city-state, needs a collective, singular major adversary. It doesn't have to be Tuluk, the other known city-state. It could be the lost city-state of Steinal, that gets discovered somehow. It could be Red Storm East, which undergoes some kind of freakish renaissance. It could be the Tablelands, after "something happens" to cause the elves and tribal humans to rise up against the city in a serious way.

Whatever way that happens, it needs for players to be able to play those adversaries, in some manner. Whether minions of staff avatars, or sponsored "boss" roles for players who already have demonstrated that they can lead, I sincerely don't care which.

But an HRPT isn't an HRPT, IMO, if it doesn't involve a A versus B, where both A & B have significant standing and significant consequences if their side loses.

We agree on the above - but when you have a portion of players saying I don't play anymore because Tuluk is closed, or I'm struggling with immersion and continuing to play because of Tuluk's absence why not just make that adversary Tuluk and welcome old, experience players back into the fold so we can enliven the playerbase?

[boog]

Allanak is bored. Its nobles can't really gain ground like chosen houses could in Tuluk -- they have their ranking and their rankings haven't much changed, whereas noble houses in Tuluk had a degree of fluidity based on a number of indicators.

Sponsored roles in Allanak have nothing really tangible to work towards so you see a lot of their ire and antagonism pointed toward commoners who can not truly provide anything like a challenge, so commoners are entertainment fodder at best.

Allanak is self hating now because it has no adversary and no social mobility, truly. There is little to strive toward and for.

Luir's is a mediocre alternative that has gone through a lot of odd change. But really no one there can provide, again, any kind of challenge or opposition to Allanak in a way that would be exciting or intriguing.

This stagnation has less to do with reopening Tuluk than it does giving that place closure and Allanak a worthy adversary and some sort of social mobility to work towards other than, "I don't like this noble so I am going to kill them because I have more money generated every two RL weeks from my NPC paymaster."

[Delirium]

This stagnation has less to do with reopening Tuluk than it does giving that place closure and Allanak a worthy adversary

This part I agree with. We will agree to disagree on the rest.

Also, just noticed the mention of Reika/Shatuka... Bebop, if you think that's why I suggest Luir's as a center of play (I had issues with it, in fact, but having the GMH vie for dominance there was a huge and much needed step toward solving those issues) you are very mistaken. Plus, that was almost a decade ago. Don't attack my position just because of past characters I played. Thanks.

[boog]

I dunno -- I've seen either side of the curtain and I am still just as frustrated about Tuluk as every other player seems to be. I just don't see Luir's being able to thwap Allanak hard enough. Staff support being needed for a lot of higher social rise conflict also stinks in many facets: it sucks for them that they have to do extra work and finagle schedules, it sucks for us having to wait on responses, it sucks when there is a shift in staff teams and sometimes that leads to whole player driven arcs being snipped or killed, or having to be completely redone -- so, maybe a lot of this could be solved or more streamlined if we had more capability to do on our own.

I'm not sure how that can be achieved, though.

[Bebop]

This stagnation has less to do with reopening Tuluk than it does giving that place closure and Allanak a worthy adversary

This part I agree with. We will agree to disagree on the rest.

Also, just noticed the mention of Reika/Shatuka... Bebop, if you think that's why I suggest Luir's as a center of play (I had issues with it, in fact, but having the GMH vie for dominance there was a huge and much needed step toward solving those issues) you are very mistaken. Plus, that was almost a decade ago. Don't attack my position just because of past characters I played. Thanks.

Not attacking, just pointing out you obviously enjoy Luirs and have a lot of experience there and are thusly going to be pro-Luirs.  But that doesn't mean everyone enjoys game play there or wants to see it replace Tuluk.

[Delirium]

I don't want Luir's to replace Tuluk as an antagonist. If I gave off that impression, I worded things poorly.

I am saying that Luir's is a viable play center, if you want to avoid Allanak for a while.

Morin's (not Freil's Rest, oops) is slightly less so but also viable.

Tuluk, meanwhile, needs to be a part of the story, whether it is in the form of some sort of closing chapter or a re-opening.

Obviously, my vote is for a closing chapter, or perhaps a return of the Rebellion-era days, but having it be this huge gaping blind spot in the ongoing narrative of Zalanthas is an awkward and unfortunate scenario that's been ongoing for a couple years now. It's like having a major PC who was the lynchpin to crucial plots just abruptly stop playing, with no closure to their storyline and no explanation for what they're doing now, and meanwhile, nobody's stepped up to replace them. So things just awkwardly stagnate.

[Medena]

Though I've always been primarily a 'naki gal, I liked Tuluk.  I enjoyed playing there.  I enjoyed there being a different city with a totally different culture and socio-economic structure.  I liked that it provided Allanak with an enemy, a menace, an omni-present threat even when the two cities were on "good terms".  All that said, I do not believe we have the player base to properly people two cities. 

It's difficult a lot of times to find someone to roleplay with in Allanak as things are now.  I shudder to think what would happen to Allanak if we took twelve people to make a skeleton team to revive Tuluk. 

I don't accept that "a portion of players saying I don't play anymore because Tuluk is closed" is enough of a reason to gut Allanak to re-open it.  There's a portion of players who don't play anymore because of PK's, a portion who don't play anymore because they want to play a full magicker, a portion who don't play because text-based games are increasingly a niche market.

[Eyeball]

It would be easy enough to reopen the mantis and have them be the threat. They've been breeding and now the valley's not big enough anymore... they want to establish a new clutch and people are in the way. Instant conflict without needing layers of nobility, templars and GMH representatives.

[MeTekillot]

If I wanna kill spiders mantis I'll just go on Byn contract, thanks

[Eyeball]

If I wanna kill spiders mantis I'll just go on Byn contract, thanks

I don't see any realistic comparison between hunting semi-mindless spiders and facing sentient mantis, especially when the latter include PCs and staff backing for PC goals.

Although even the spiders would be worth something if they were being actively directed and didn't sit near their lairs all of the time, waiting for you to come to them.

[Bebop]

It would be easy enough to reopen the mantis and have them be the threat. They've been breeding and now the valley's not big enough anymore... they want to establish a new clutch and people are in the way. Instant conflict without needing layers of nobility, templars and GMH representatives.

Except that some of us enjoy the sociopolitcal layers of nobility, Templars, GMH AND bards.  Which is why we miss Tuluk.

[Bebop]

It's difficult a lot of times to find someone to roleplay with in Allanak as things are now.  I shudder to think what would happen to Allanak if we took twelve people to make a skeleton team to revive Tuluk. 

I don't accept that "a portion of players saying I don't play anymore because Tuluk is closed" is enough of a reason to gut Allanak to re-open it.  There's a portion of players who don't play anymore because of PK's, a portion who don't play anymore because they want to play a full magicker, a portion who don't play because text-based games are increasingly a niche market.

This is easily solved by offering the majority of the roles to players who no longer play but are still active on the forum like boog or Malken.  This would turn non-players with experience into players again without drawing from the current pool of people.

Also HRPTs always gain interest.

And yes, we might be a niche but people that play here aren't doing it for the graphics.  They're doing it for the experience.  And that's what my pair of threads are about - creating an engaging, fun and rewarding experience like no other.

[Lizzie]

It would be easy enough to reopen the mantis and have them be the threat. They've been breeding and now the valley's not big enough anymore... they want to establish a new clutch and people are in the way. Instant conflict without needing layers of nobility, templars and GMH representatives.

Except that some of us enjoy the sociopolitcal layers of nobility, Templars, GMH AND bards.  Which is why we miss Tuluk.

I'm not convinced that this was why the bulk of the people who left "over Tuluk closing" left over it. I am more inclined to believe that their leaving was because Tuluk being open for game play provided AN ADVERSARY TO ALLANAK that no longer existed for game play, and therefore, the major "central point of conflict" no longer existed for game play. Just like in a novel -if the protagonist constantly talks about the enemy, but you never find out who the enemy is, what about the enemy makes them the enemy, have zero engagement with the enemy, then there might as well not be an enemy. And that's a very boring story.

For that reason, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily have to be Tuluk reopening. It could be, sure. But that one, single, exclusive thing - is not necessary. SOMETHING is. But it doesn't have to be THAT thing only, and nothing else.

[Miradus]

This is easily solved by offering the majority of the roles to players who no longer play but are still active on the forum like boog or Malken.  This would turn non-players with experience into players again without drawing from the current pool of people.

They've already gotten bored and wandered off, except for whatever reason they still social on the fringe aspects of the game like the forum and Discord.

Seems to me that trying to encourage more engagement with the game ought to start with those who are already engaged, not those who have decided to disengage. You don't try to change your game to suit those who decided they aren't interested in your game.

[Bebop]

This is easily solved by offering the majority of the roles to players who no longer play but are still active on the forum like boog or Malken.  This would turn non-players with experience into players again without drawing from the current pool of people.

They've already gotten bored and wandered off, except for whatever reason they still social on the fringe aspects of the game like the forum and Discord.

Seems to me that trying to encourage more engagement with the game ought to start with those who are already engaged, not those who have decided to disengage. You don't try to change your game to suit those who decided they aren't interested in your game.

So that I understand correctly -

You're saying it's okay to change the game so that it distances players that are experienced and committed many hours happily here. 
It's okay to isolate them.

But it's not okay to potentially engage them again and change it back.

Changing to distance players is okay, but changing to bring them back isn't worth our time?  No wonder the game is losing players.

[Miradus]

I don't play word games with people. I say what I mean. I don't think I hedge my words at all anywhere. I'm pretty fucking clear in my speech.

I didn't say it's okay to close Tuluk. That was a decision that predates my time here and even if I was playing then, nobody fucking asked me. Nobody asked my opinion when they gutted out all the mage classes a few weeks before I got a karma point and would have been able to play one. Nobody asked my opinion when they revamped the karma system and I lost half of the available options I had. Nobody asked my opinion on pretty much any change they've ever made here.

You're not talking about engaging players who have left. You're talking about giving specialized fun roles to ex-players over those who are actively playing the game.

That seems like the exact kind of favoritism you see blasted in all of the reviews of Armageddon out there, as well as the number one complaint which comes up repeatedly on the shadowboard.

You want special bennies? Play the fucking game.

[Miradus]

An idea I'd recommend to engage players is telling them what's going on in the game.

Let a storyteller, a helper, or some trusted player do this if you don't want to take the game. Post a thread on the forum (since it seems that even if you quit the game you don't quit the forum) called Rumors.

Give a brief synopsis of some of the visible events going on in all the major player hubs.

Luir's
--
Bigdick-da of House Kurac has put out a call for riders to seek out gith strongholds.
The Garrison arrested a pickpocket and, per Luir's law, removed his right hand. The Guild has sworn vengeance and the Garrison is on high alert.

Allanak
---
Lord Templar Lookatme executed two citizens in the Gaj when they didn't bow fast enough.
Lady Fancypants was vomited upon in Red's by a drunken Bynner, whose head now graces a pike in front of her estate.
The third annual underpants festival is being hosted this year by House Kadius, who will award prizes to those who show up in the best underpants.

Red Storm
---
The bartender sold a jug of spiced ale to a traveler who remarked on how the village is completely devoid of activity before heading north to attend the third annual underpants festival.

Knowing what's going on in game is probably the most engaging thing you can do. And one of the easiest.

[Armaddict]

Long post, apologies in advance.  I know that only the most interested will likely read it, but hopefully there are things worth reading in it.

I was one of those who was pretty damn happy when Tuluk closed.  I can go into all my reasons for why I'm not a huge fan of Tuluk, but for pertinence here, I can say I -supported- the move not out of Nakki-fanboy syndrome or 'fuck that place', but because I had an entirely different vision for what that entailed; I saw territory and resource wars, a wild-west area for those thrill-seekers, a place to escape to, and a greater consolidation of players who engaged in city-play being in one city, resulting in deeper conflict and involvement in that city as well.  Then we more heavily emphasized tribals.  Then we cut out the legs of in-city clans' ability to independently plot.  Overall, with the decisions made, it's turned into a net loss.

However, that said, some things:

Except that some of us enjoy the sociopolitcal layers of nobility, Templars, GMH AND bards.  Which is why we miss Tuluk.

I was going to post this in the PK thread, but it seems pertinent here as well.  Sociopolitical play is not unavailable because Tuluk is closed.  Allanak is lacking a true 'things to work towards' idea that is more clear with an adversary.  However, there is also this...thing...that was embodied by the PK post itself.

Imagine the playerbase as a sort of pyramid.  Put the 'activity' players, the 'action' players, the 'More ready to PK' players, whatever you want to label it insofar as you understand what is actually meant, on the bottom tier.  They are a lower 'order' players...that does not mean they roleplay worse, that does not mean they're less important, it means that their idea of fun is relatively self-serving, easy to access, and easier to have independently.  These people hunt because they enjoy hunting.  They fight because they like fighting.  They look to train because they like being a badass.  They, largely, like having fun that they can engage in without having to wait around on people.

Above this, you have a higher order.  Again, that is not saying better at roleplay, or more important.  There are, however, less of them in the amounts of players that we have enjoyed before, and seem to want again.  I believe this is the sociopolitical sphere that you're addressing.  They are leaders, they are manipulators, they are politickers.  This 'order' of players is, whether they realize it or not, far more dependent.  They need not just other people in the same order, they require stimuli and passing events...things that are unconsciously, by nature, provided by that lower order of player.  They react to events.  They provide goals.  They attempt to draw loyalty.  They take existing drama or goals and try to twist it to their ends.

When you see me defending PK, or mindless hunting, or fringe cases where people just say they're twinking...it's me defending the idea that within a healthy playerbase, these players will exist, and actually -must- exist in order for the higher orders to continue functioning.  Every time you try to shame, control, or 'teach' someone that being lower order is a non-contribution or negative contribution, you are working to remove your own stimuli from the game.

The sociopolitical sphere is indeed suffering.  Perhaps not to a vast degree, but a noticeable one, at least through my experiences.  As a player who hops between the two orders as a rule for my enjoyment, the fading and degradation of the lower order was readily apparent...and people still have the nerve to call those losses a net gain because of the struggles of personal interaction with a permadeath game.

I do believe that there is action needed.  Not necessarily the opening of Tuluk, but the fostering of the ability to enjoy baser levels of the game again so that Joe Schmoe who thinks combat is cool and neato can freely engage in it without everyone freaking the fuck out every time he kills someone because he thought that's how his character would act.  Opening Tuluk can work, but not if you try to make it a separatist 'place for a different playstyle' idea.  The interaction between -kinds of player- is just as important as the interaction between players;  if you're going to open something up, make sure it provides some opportunity for do-it-myself-for-fun players to engage in.  You'll draw more of them that way, and the sociopolitical will again have their player-comprised backbone to interact with.

Changing to distance players is okay, but changing to bring them back isn't worth our time?  No wonder the game is losing players.

I think his phrasing is off, or the idea itself is off, but it's close to a thought of my own I've had in assessment of things.  People keep talking about changes that can be made to draw in new players.  Changes that can be made to promote 'better play'.  Changes to attract this, to do this...and yet if those changes result in players going away, it all comes down to a gamble of what you have versus what you want.  Casinos make money reliably off of this principle; if you want to build a playerbase, start by keeping what you have pleased first.  Discuss what solutions you'd like to make.  RETRACT THINGS THAT DON'T WORK EVEN IF SOMEONE WORKED HARD ON IT.  Over the course of time, ignoring a downward trend and insisting it's something other than changes made is a strange behavior.

So yeah, Miradus...keep our players happy.  But at some point, we do need to try to create opportunities that can attract new people as well.  It's just that we have to acknowledge that big rocks of the boat that are displeasing people should be discarded.

For that reason, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily have to be Tuluk reopening. It could be, sure. But that one, single, exclusive thing - is not necessary. SOMETHING is. But it doesn't have to be THAT thing only, and nothing else.

I think me and Lizzie have many big differences, but our perspective of the current state of the game is similar on several things as well.

If I wanna kill spiders mantis I'll just go on Byn contract, thanks

Seems to me that you want an intelligent enemy.  I think you should consider playing antagonistic roles.  The hardships are there, the bullshit is there, but ultimately, when you're not excited by cooperative ventures against mindless, repetitive victims that seem to be inserted just for you to kill rather than figure out...the antagonist becomes very rewarding, -and- you contribute a great deal to other players whether they want to, or are able to, admit it or not.