PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It

[Heade]

This is why I'm trying to start the discussion that hey - this is an RP game.  Numbers are down.  There are RP alternatives to PK that can make the game more fun.  I'm not talking about the people even necessarily delivering the PK.  I'm talking about people relying so heavily on PK as a plot point at every little turn when, with a little imagination, plots could be deepened and the game might be better for it.

Look, I'm all for this shift towards alternatives to PK. But over the years, policy due to OOC feelings has diminished options for antagonists in the game. Getting rid of murder only hasn't happened because it's core to the integrity of an RPI permadeath MUD. But along the way, things like slavery and sexual assault were taken off the table as tools for the wicked, and it has made antagonist RP more one-dimensional.

I'm all for having more alternatives to murder, IC. But I think some of those old alternatives should be returned as options for the players. I don't want to rehash the sexual assault argument, because that is never-ending and too personal a topic for too many players on an OOC level. But I think re-vamping slavery, and adding items to the game to support IC kidnapping beyond the simple "subdue" code would be a step in the right direction, to allow more interesting plots to unfold than simply PKing people.

[Brytta Léofa]

> subdue amos
You subdue the tall, muscular man.

The tall, muscular man struggles against you.

> use rope amos
You begin tying up the tall, muscular man.

The tall, muscular man struggles against you.

The tall, muscular man struggles against you.

You hog-tie the tall, muscular man.

> pack amos war
You pack the tall, muscular man on a war beetle.

[Is Friday]

I feel like every time I'm PK'd there's a direct correlation with being too generous a player. So, you're welcome nerds.

[Rokal]

This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they aren't Arm material.

This is a terrible mindset to approach any game. No one is 'anything' material to start with when they come to a new game, the initial experience is what opens them up to future experiences. A newbie that is bright eyed and bushy tailed about the game may know that its harsh and tough.

But if they get killed because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time and the didn't get much of an _experience_ out of it, how will they ever become the 'arm material'  you're looking for?

Killing other players? Fine. Make it an experience for them. Don't make it some sort if litmus test that to see if they're material. That only chases people away.

[Armaddict]

This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they aren't Arm material.

This is a terrible mindset to approach any game. No one is 'anything' material to start with when they come to a new game, the initial experience is what opens them up to future experiences. A newbie that is bright eyed and bushy tailed about the game may know that its harsh and tough.

But if they get killed because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time and the didn't get much of an _experience_ out of it, how will they ever become the 'arm material'  you're looking for?

Killing other players? Fine. Make it an experience for them. Don't make it some sort if litmus test that to see if they're material. That only chases people away.

1)  Newbies already get a lot of leeway in this regard from the community as a whole, making it a moot point.  I'd dare you to contest otherwise.
2)  There are essentially 2 areas of the game where this may be bypassed by lack of exposure, outside the city (raiding) and the 'rinth.  If they have no idea that those areas are dangerous and can lead easily to character death, it's the entire community shortchanging them, not the one playing their role in those areas.
3) This was not presented as an 'Arm suitability litmus test'.  This was presented that if a player cannot handle the death of a character in a permadeath game with heavy conflict elements, they are either asking for sustained coddling or would probably enjoy themselves a great deal more elsewhere.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill out of misplaced indignation.  People playing the ruthless should feel free to be ruthless with whatever efficiency they choose insofar as it remains IC.  If your approach is 'but newbies', all you're saying to me is 'but exceptions', in which case I agree there are indeed exceptions, most of which can be accounted for.

[number13]

probably enjoy themselves a great deal more elsewhere.

Taking that deal.

I don't PK often. I don't get PKed often. But this thread full of PK hounds (at least one of whom logs on once a fortnight just to make a kill) has thoroughly soured me on an experience that was already getting pretty boring because of a lack of players.

I'm here for the story. If PKs are making the story better, then they are a good thing. That's the case a lot of the time. But, if PKs are making the story worse, they are a bad thing. Some of you need to check yourselves, because your kills are falling into that category.

[Armaddict]

I don't PK often. I don't get PKed often. But this thread full of PK hounds (at least one of whom logs on once a fortnight just to make a kill) has thoroughly soured me on an experience that was already getting pretty boring because of a lack of players.

I'm here for the story. If PKs are making the story better, then they are a good thing. That's the case a lot of the time. But, if PKs are making the story worse, they are a bad thing. Some of you need to check yourselves, because your kills are falling into that category.

I find it odd that you equate people stating the relevance of PK with being a PK hound.  I'd like to know which of my recent PK's you're exposed to.

[number13]

I find it odd that you equate people stating the relevance of PK with being a PK hound.  I'd like to know which of my recent PK's you're exposed to.

I have no idea who you are playing at the moment. I can't specifically recall any of your prior characters. I just find the defense of unmitigated PKing distasteful.

I've not personally been PKed (without absolute consent) in RL years. This isn't me being butthurt over a personal tragedy.

People playing the ruthless should feel free to be ruthless with whatever efficiency they choose insofar as it remains IC.

...is a poor excuse. First, you're the one who has declared your character 'ruthless'. Second, if I can play aggressive characters who hardly ever actually PK, so could you.

[Armaddict]

I have no idea who you are playing at the moment. I can't specifically recall any of your prior characters. I just find the defense of unmitigated PKing distasteful.

I actually have done nothing like that.  I've outlined qualifiers all along the way, with the only stopping point being the attempt to curb the appearance of PK, as a whole, being some taboo thing that only people with OOC motives does.  I've discussed situations where it was poorly done and well done in the past, differentiating between reactionary PK, which is usually a direct result of immediate IC events, PK-danger that makes me play more, and PK-danger that makes me play less.  I've discussed how we all acknowledge the leeway given to new players as one of several exceptions to where even if it's IC for the kill to happen, you may want to hold off.

The part you fixated on prior was where I said IF you have a hard time with character loss and it's something that you expect to avoid out of the goodness of other players' heart regardless of what is IC and what is not, then you're likely going to have a hard time enjoying the game.  That is not some extremist point of view, or a nudge for everyone to go start killing willy-nilly.  It's a caution against creating the perception that this is a low-violence, low-conflict theme where you generally stay safe.  That would be giving a false impression.

I mean...you even brought up fortnight as a slight for someone logging in to do the point of that entire game.  People who play games centered around PvP are not automatically bloodthirsty griefers when they log into their roleplaying game, but some of us -do- like the omnipresent threat of true violence in our roleplaying game, and Armageddon is unique among most roleplaying games where that danger is built into the setting.  There are other roleplaying games where I don't have to consider other players much of a threat, and they are not nearly as exciting, on the grand scale.  Having real, intelligent people playing real, intelligent enemies with their own lack of predictability adds that excitement, insofar as one does not grow -too- attached to each individual character.

[number13]

  Having real, intelligent people playing real, intelligent enemies with their own lack of predictability adds that excitement, insofar as one does not grow -too- attached to each individual character.

True, however...firstly, the game design works against low attachment. It requires hundreds of hours for a character to become effective at their role, if their role is based on coded abilities. It requires a few minutes of play time to PK that same character, given favorable circumstances. Typing poison knife, etwo knife, hide, sneak, s, s, s, w, w, w, s, backstab merchant, hide, n, e, e is hardly the cunning plan we are hoping for from real, intelligent enemies.

Secondly, the on-going narrative is such that if there is low attachment to characters, there is also low attachment to the plot. A day 0 character has no attachment to the plot, and comes into the world without any relationships to other characters (d-elves and sponsored roles excluded).

Any case, numbers don't lie. Just logged in long enough to type WHO, and we're at 38 players, less than 40, right in the middle of peak. That is a problem. At absolute minimum, need 50 for the game to be fun, ideally 70 to support a second city.

[Strongheart]

I've had a character who died to their own clanmate who should not have killed their own blood but did so regardless because of EZ PK.

I think I'm the one who did that. I regretted it soon after in that it not only didn't foster the conflict and plot I had thought it would, and also that it left me with nobody to play with. I continue to regret it, I apologize, and I learned from it. That was one of those "I don't have time to think this through but I'm going to do it anyway" moments.

The reality is that not every PK goes the way you want. Sometimes I just meant to knock people out and rob them and then the gamecode killed them. Sometimes you want it to be better, but it just doesn't always come together.

It's a learning experience. I want to kill each of you with love and proper attention to give you the story's end you miserable bastards so richly deserve. Especially the ones who have put in the time and devotion to crafting a really solid character. I want you to play that character for months and months, interacting with me as a villain, before you finally get put into the grinder and I give you the long villain's monologue. I want you to know for weeks ahead of time that you've become involved in something deadly, scary, and that will result in your horrible demise if you're not very lucky. But that's an art form that's hard to master. It's difficult to pull off in a game where there's timing, crimcode, social allies, and a host of other things going on.

So forgive me if I sometimes fall short of the mark and you get an end that's premature, unresolved, and unsatisfying. I'm trying.

Apology accepted! I understand that these things happen, so no harm.

[Strongheart]

I am pleased to see that this thread is on the direction of healthy discussion! Makes me eager for the next player meeting.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

  Having real, intelligent people playing real, intelligent enemies with their own lack of predictability adds that excitement, insofar as one does not grow -too- attached to each individual character.

True, however...firstly, the game design works against low attachment. It requires hundreds of hours for a character to become effective at their role, if their role is based on coded abilities. It requires a few minutes of play time to PK that same character, given favorable circumstances. Typing poison knife, etwo knife, hide, sneak, s, s, s, w, w, w, s, backstab merchant, hide, n, e, e is hardly the cunning plan we are hoping for from real, intelligent enemies.

Secondly, the on-going narrative is such that if there is low attachment to characters, there is also low attachment to the plot. A day 0 character has no attachment to the plot, and comes into the world without any relationships to other characters (d-elves and sponsored roles excluded).

Any case, numbers don't lie. Just logged in long enough to type WHO, and we're at 38 players, less than 40, right in the middle of peak. That is a problem. At absolute minimum, need 50 for the game to be fun, ideally 70 to support a second city.

So.. for this bolded part, are you assuming the low numbers are because folks getting PK'ed are quitting the game? Others have pointed out in this thread that there is no proven correlation, and I agree with them. There have been many changes to the game in the past few years, which could be a factor, as well a community of addicted, aging players finally deciding to hang up the old hat.

[Krath]

I will say this, the Karma regen time will likely cause me to take a Hiatus, until all my karma is regenerated after each character. If I earn the Karma, I should be trusted to use it when I want. I think that is or will be the biggest cause of influx of the playerbase.

[Derain]

Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.

[Miradus]

Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.

Well, shame on them. I'm dealing with it. They should too. There's some interesting zero karma combinations that can be had. What are they going to do? Just NOT play anything if they can't play the powerhouse?

But also, I've been informed by staff via a response to a request that the karma regen is bugged right now and it's not working. Since it went in, I have not had one single karma point regenerate, and I was informed that there's many people affected by this.

[Krath]

Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.

Well, shame on them. I'm dealing with it. They should too. There's some interesting zero karma combinations that can be had. What are they going to do? Just NOT play anything if they can't play the powerhouse?

But also, I've been informed by staff via a response to a request that the karma regen is bugged right now and it's not working. Since it went in, I have not had one single karma point regenerate, and I was informed that there's many people affected by this.

Miradus,

Let's be real though..This is Crackageddon...After about a day of withdrawal, I will be rolling up a merchant linguist.

[Strongheart]

I'd like it if karma were just reverted back to its most recent state where regen wasn't a thing. You should be able to roll in another mage if your last one just got trashed. I think someone stated that they do this to prevent griefing or something like that but you would be disallowed to app a certain character were it an issue anyway since we already have to go through an application process.

[Inks]

PK is awesome, when it happens to my PCs, as opposed to logging in drunk and dying from dehydration/monsters/ not having a weapon out, or just sober dead to random NPC as well!


The threat of death is why I keep playing this game.Love it.

[Inks]

This is why I'm trying to start the discussion that hey - this is an RP game.  Numbers are down.  There are RP alternatives to PK that can make the game more fun.  I'm not talking about the people even necessarily delivering the PK.  I'm talking about people relying so heavily on PK as a plot point at every little turn when, with a little imagination, plots could be deepened and the game might be better for it.

Look, I'm all for this shift towards alternatives to PK. But over the years, policy due to OOC feelings has diminished options for antagonists in the game. Getting rid of murder only hasn't happened because it's core to the integrity of an RPI permadeath MUD. But along the way, things like slavery and sexual assault were taken off the table as tools for the wicked, and it has made antagonist RP more one-dimensional.

I'm all for having more alternatives to murder, IC. But I think some of those old alternatives should be returned as options for the players. I don't want to rehash the sexual assault argument, because that is never-ending and too personal a topic for too many players on an OOC level. But I think re-vamping slavery, and adding items to the game to support IC kidnapping beyond the simple "subdue" code would be a step in the right direction, to allow more interesting plots to unfold than simply PKing people.

Also +1, and kudos to imms for allowing PCs to become penned gladiators under the right circumstances.

[Nao]

I'm not convinced that there are more players driven away after a PK than those who enjoy it and keep coming back because of the way the game is, which PK being a central part of it. I would also rather play with the second sort of player.

There still seems to be a correlation between player numbers and PK, but for the reasons that have been most mentioned in this thread. There are key players who play a lot, are very engaging, and keep an entire area alive. When they drop off the map for any reason? Everyone else in that sphere, clan, or area logs in less and plays less because there is not much going on and there is nobody with the same ability to make things happen, start plots, or at least keep them going. I'm sure you have all seen this happen, after PKs, deaths to other causes, or if someone just stops logging in.

Also, there are rarely, if ever, more than 50 players online during my play times. On good days, it's in the low 30s. But I still manage to enjoy the game, and have seen plenty of action over the last year or so since I came back. If you can't enjoy the game with less than 50 players online, you're probably not fully utilizing opportunities with those players who are playing.

Also, those low 30s? Are unusually high numbers for off-peak times, compared to years ago. When I first logged in again, I was surprised to see this many players online. Peak may be down, but I'm not too worried about overall numbers.

[Vox]

I second Armaddict.

And that fortnight comment was directed at me, but I'm still sorry to see you go, Number13, you really broke my heart.

[Heade]

I second Armaddict.

And that fortnight comment was directed at me, but I'm still sorry to see you go, Number13, you really broke my heart.

You log in once every 2 weeks to PK someone? When was your last login? Maybe we can make it a sort of IC holiday, where all our PCs huddle together in the Gaj in fear of the Vox.

[Vox]

I second Armaddict.

And that fortnight comment was directed at me, but I'm still sorry to see you go, Number13, you really broke my heart.

You log in once every 2 weeks to PK someone? When was your last login? Maybe we can make it a sort of IC holiday, where all our PCs huddle together in the Gaj in fear of the Vox.

The comment was directed at me but it isn't accurate. Fearing me always, is usually the healthiest.

[Cind]

I sort of always thought it was games like Breath of the Wild (which was reported to have lowered visits to porn sites after it was released; good luck for the rest of the entertainment business) and all those multiplayer games that were being released, like Overwatch because I don't really know the names of the rest of them.

But you've got greats coming out like Far Cry 5 and Horizon Zero Dawn (at least, I heard they were good; I just spent an hour on Final Fantasy VII, as I don't have a video game allowance in any capacity) and I'm a little surprised to hear that people were expecting the numbers of people logged in at peak to stay the same.

If it helps any, off-peak numbers have been better for the last year, at least they were where I was playing. I think one factor, don't know how big, is that massive online multiplayers are easiest to group for if you log in at our peaktime.

I know that groups rise and fall with the tides and the amount of death tends to rise and fall with them, but the kind of people that log in to play already should know to expect that--- periods of untimely and common deaths, and periods where its at least a little easier.

You guys talking about the numbers dropping does kind of worry me, but I have the kind of evil hours no one with a plot wants to have, so I haven't really noticed.