PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It

[Eyeball]

Your first character or three will be the ones you are most attached to. The longer you play and the more characters you've lost, the less you care, in general.

[Derain]

Perhaps the karma regen is leading to low numbers because people are waiting for it to regen. I know st least a few who are on hiatus cause they don't want to play anything else.

[Strongheart]

Perhaps the karma regen is leading to low numbers because people are waiting for it to regen. I know st least a few who are on hiatus cause they don't want to play anything else.

Yeah, for real!

Hmm.. you know, I hope I'm not sounding salty in my previous posts. I just want everyone to know that there is a time and place for PK and that there are two sides to every story!

It is also my hope that this thread wasn't posted from a place of hypocrisy such as the OP being someone who PKs aggressively and is just being responded to in kind. I am of the opinion that if you are going to dish out? Then you best be ready to be served in turn! Although I do not think this is the case being made here.

[Bebop]

I just want to point out people are saying it's not PK but we've had a few people chime in saying PK did cause them to leave.  I myself was on the verge of leaving when I was PKd after coming back.  Not because I was angry, I just didn't have it in me to start over.  With the encouragement of some kind players and staff I did continue but even now I struggle because I feel I am seeing some players replace RP with the constant pursuit of PK and in a smaller fish bowl at times it feels all consuming.

A lot of people are focusing on the code but I do want to focus on the RP aspect.  PK isn't about just codedly starting over.  It ends plots.  It isolates characters from players they enjoy interacting with and fun they were probably having if they stayed in their role.  Regardless, of skill you have to establish new connections etc.  PK as a plot point sends a shockwave through the playerbase especially when it is this small and for every PK I've seen that is really cool and impactful I've seen about ten that were totally unnecessary and did little but water down the plot and make it a challenge to keep playing.

This is why I'm trying to start the discussion that hey - this is an RP game.  Numbers are down.  There are RP alternatives to PK that can make the game more fun.  I'm not talking about the people even necessarily delivering the PK.  I'm talking about people relying so heavily on PK as a plot point at every little turn when, with a little imagination, plots could be deepened and the game might be better for it.

I'm all for PVP but more so I am for the RP quality and integrity of this game staying in tact.

That being said codedly too there are things that don't make sense right now and are heavily tilted towards PK instead or RP.  But I hope regardless of numbers and code the RP element of what I'm trying to say isn't being lost.

[puella]

2013 was the apex for numbers: both before (to 2010, when records begin) and after numbers have been pretty much the same.  Whatever we did in 2013 we should repeat, and in particular April - June 2013.

[Krath]

Arma is dying from what I can see and it needs 1) new shit 2) revised shit 3) a voting drive 4) a temporary disbanding of the "no advertising" stuff.

I love Arma and I really want it to keep going tbh like damn

But it needs to be freshened up with something big and neatly scrubbing and polishing up some of the really janky 20yo code

But PKing has never been a problem to me unless it's WAAAAAY OOC

Like some shit just riding in and insta killing in the wild with no rp no reason nothing

That's what needs tapping down on

Regular pk? That shit is GREAT

I agree with MoO.
About Desert PK:
While we are experience the initial anger and sadness of losing our character when I die, one thing you need to remember is your character is not going to live forever. Even though you may have died like others have said above, it for there's another person storyline. If you are player killed you should be proud. It means more times than not that you were doing something that was affecting others on the game world.

As  someone who's played multiple raiders, left for nearly a decade in return, I can tell you that a lot of the times people are killed on the desert is because of a previous bad experience. Usually that pertains to the person who was killed not giving in the raider a chance to role-play with them during a previous encounter. With all of my present characters I have experience that if you stop in role-play you won't die. However, the one time I did run away I ended up dying later. :oHowever, the one time I did run away I ended up dying later.

[lairos]

As someone who has PK'd, had others PK for them and been PK'd themselves countless times over the years I have never stopped playing due to it. I do agree that it can be difficult to think of a new concept or start over, but that is also the beauty of this game. You actually GET to start over and be someone new. I believe I saw it earlier as well, but I would much rather be PK'd from some plot or to further some other character's agenda than by some massive mob of spiders. I can even say that I was in a rare position a few years ago to either PK many others or spin the reaction of my own character and let them kill me instead which was more of an OOC decision.

That being said, I think there are people who have quit or took a long break after their character had been killed, but one could say that even about being killed to mobs as well as players. We as players get attached to the story of the character we are playing because of the immersion and because of the time spent. It is a work of love on each character and our personal time we devote is precious to us. Having that feel like its been taken away is difficult, but this is Armageddon. Sometimes as the one being killed you don't get to see the large story arc behind it and what has all been done for the buildup of that moment for many other players involved. Trying to give someone a big scene for their end with the way things are is very difficult, but sometimes not impossible. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Just because you didn't get to see the big story yourself does not mean it didn't happen. I think trying to restrict people from PK or allowing them to play out their character as they would will become too restrictive and you will end up losing far more players. I don't feel like taking away more from players is the way to go.

Finally, I do believe that there are likely some players who, after they have died, have decided to wait on a special app or even wait for their Karma to regenerate because what they actually want to play is not available to them at the current time. I am of the mind that we all play this game to have fun or its not worth playing. At the end of the day, I think PK is only a SMALL part of what causes people to take a break or leave and there are many other things that go into it. I for one posted about leaving previously because of RL issues that have since been resolved.

[Potaje]

I think that if you play this game and are worried about PK then your playing the wrong game. This is a niche game to begin with. Permadeath is not to common to games. If one was to argue about what would keep and drive people away its the permadeath, everyone comes for the thrill of the challenge to survive the murder, betrayals and corruption. Not to just survive npc mob #44. Of coarse people don't want to lose the character they have grown attached to but we all go into this know it will eventually happen. And Bebop, we have been playing this game long enough to know these are the aspects of the game which are the exciting unknowns, the tension and the conflict after all what is conflict without repercussions.

Aside, the way it is now balances power in the city. Sure you might have that noble that is untouchable openly, and you can crap on any person of lower station than you but you better remember an assassin's darts from the shadows can still get you. And thus is the balance. If we take away PK, or stealthues then take away nobles and templars, for they are as unbalanced.

[Lizzie]

I disagree with the "it ends plots" concept. It ends your plot. Or maybe it doesn't even end that. It ends your character's story, nothing more or less.

If my character is preventing someone else from continuing THEIR plot - then them killing my character will PREVENT plots from ending. It'll allow THEIR plot to continue without my character being in the way. And when I arrange for someone else's character to die, often it's because their character is preventing MY plot from continuing. PKing them allows MY plot to continue.

It ends your character's story. It will end some plots. It will allow other plots to start, that wouldn't have had any reason to start if your character had lived. It will allow even more plots to continue, that would otherwise have been stifled or halted if your character had continued to live.

[Derain]

Lizzie is spot on.

[PriestlySiren]

I get more upset when people exploit code to the detriment of RP.

[Bebop]

Maybe a good way to think of it might be what is this character I'm considering killing adding to the game?  What am I adding to the game if anything by removing them?


No one is talking about taking away PK or saying you should never PK.  The point overall is that this is an RP game and PK doesn't equal good RP.  And that one intense moment can sometimes, not always, diminish the plot if you aren't careful with a player base that is small.

And I'm not speaking in absolutes.  I'm not saying it's like that all of the time.  A good PK kill has it's place but listen to what I'm saying.  Making PK your go to in lieu of other creative plot pivoting does a disservice to the game when you PK needless and rob the plot of dimension.

I'm not saying don't PK.  I'm saying ask yourself if it's the best choice and if you can get more creative because too much mindless PK hurts plots.

[deskoft]

I both agree and disagree with you Bebop. I think mindless, frequent PKing is bad and I cannot agree with you more. If this is an scenario where my PCs are consistently murdering characters without thought, I must stop to consider if my roleplay is any good. I think however that the occasional PK that 'ends' a story is needed.

I am a roleplay junkie but what I will not do is ignore a situation where my character would PK you. I will do it. It is the nature of life in extreme circumstances. Kill or be killed. I play to consistently give others a realistic, breathing character and this includes when they thematically decides to PK.

My statement, however, has a facet: my character will PK you if he would if he were a character. Here is where things regulate themselves. As a player, if I were to play to win, for sure I would PK anyone who gets in my way. But my character is not treating other characters as linesa of text: these are persons and there are consequences, coded or not. That is when my PCs tend to PK only when the situation REALLY bids it. Sometimes I can give you an awesome scene, sometimes your death is rushes and desperate, and sometimes it is so fast that nobody notices it. But there was a solid reason. And I hope other players will think I had a solid reasosn as part of some roleplayers' code. We are all hobbyists in a game we all love for what it can provide and it relies on each other trusting the rest that they are always playing a character with motivations, flaws and stengths. That is where I disagree. What sets Arm apart is that distinction between a MUSH and a game that strives for 'as close as it gets too playing this scenario,' which includes that your loved ones will die, that you will die, that you will have moral choices to make, that you will step back from your chair shivering after a PK attempt and cursing the game and each and every one of its players, only to look back at it a month later to realise: holy shit nothing else can give me this.

Obviously PK is not CENTRAL to Arm. Dying and killing wouldnt be this way if we didnt love our stories, if they didnt have a chance to foster, if they didnt feel so personal.

And obviously if PK wasnt so necessary, starting a new PC wouldnt feel like starting a new life, building from the start.

Armageddon is a tough game, but it is an escape from reality. I do think and I am passionate that regardless of playerbase fluctuations we give people something they cant get anywhere else: your story here is more intense and more immersive than any book or any movie.

We have things to improve, but all games do.

[lairos]

I absolutely agree with Deskoft.

I believe that is an OOC consideration to think of their plots and what you are removing from the game for an IC action. If you as a character believe that the way to get your plots to continue is to completely off this other person standing in the way? You as a character don't care about their plots and would actually prefer to see them all fall with them if you are planning to kill. I don't see why they would bother thinking about anything else? There are absolutely times that don't always call for the end all PK. I know I have done other things than PK and given benefit of the doubt through RP and ruining or other devices only to have to end up PKing anyway in the end, but at least I tried. Those occasions are not all the time however since I have also had characters where it just isn't them to allow their enemy to have another option to retaliate against them.

[Bebop]

It may be an OOC consideration, but the reality is there is an OOC element to this game because it is a virtual world.

The OOC consideration is why we have karma for powerful roles, and why people with total PK privileges like Templars are vetted before they get the role and continually followed up on.  It's the same reason it's in poor taste to attack someone who is obviously new.  Sometimes we find IG reasons to not do something because of OOC reasons to make the game better.  These types of standards aren't relegated to PC leaders.  We all have a responsibility to realize we are part of a community and a game.  If we did not have OOC considerations this is not a game you would want to play, nor would we have made it this far.  And this is what I'm trying to point out.

We are drawing from a limited pool of people.  Maybe getting PK'd doesn't dissuade you.  But it could dissuade the person you PK and the people around them.  Granted, that's not your responsibility.  I'm using your in general to whoever is reading this.  But if you don't feel like you have at least a smidgen of obligation to make the game playable and to lend yourself to plots that are fun?  We have a problem.

We're all going to have different opinions.  Ultimately, I'm addressing the player base collectively here.  You have an IC obligation to play your character, but you also have an OOC obligation to try to make the game interesting, fun and enjoyable IF you want it to stick around.

This sort of insular idea, that you just have to focus on yourself, your characters and your preferences isn't going to work.  The reality is the game is dwindling and I know on my part, and clearly on the parts of others here, a big part of the deterrent is because it's a struggle to get a good, deep story going.  I'm not stating this as a knee jerk reaction, I'm stating it as someone who has played for a decade off and on and am seeing a clear devolution and a player base that's drying up.

So either we can have a real conversation on how to make the game better, or we can hug PK for any reason we can pull out of the air tight and cling to an insular mindset.  But if there's no one else to play with and players can't be retained you can have all of the opinions you want --- but you won't have anyone left to play with.

I'm not trying to speak out of personal preference, (although obviously I'm going to have my own bias) I'm saying - hey, do we want Arm to stick around and what do we want it to look like?  In it's current state I think codedly it's tilted towards PK instead of plot for several reasons I listed here and that's what I want the PB to consider.

[Potaje]

I have known bebop in game for years and you have a large body count of your own, so I wonder, why right now all of a sudden you are complaining about pks? I don;t believe you, even to this day, shy away from killing pcs heavily. Perhaps lead by example?

[Krath]

You have an IC obligation to play your character, but you also have an OOC obligation to try to make the game interesting, fun and enjoyable IF you want it to stick around.

This right here is absolutely correct. However, that does not mean stop PKing because OOCly the other player might quit if you do.

If it would be IC for you PC to PK that other character, then do it. If it would not be IC for you PC to kill that character then do not. It is that simple.

[Bebop]

I have known bebop in game for years and you have a large body count of your own, so I wonder, why right now all of a sudden you are complaining about pks? I don;t believe you, even to this day, shy away from killing pcs heavily. Perhaps lead by example?

Huh?  I could probably count how many people I've PK'd in this game over a decade on my fingers and toes.  Also, I can't remember a single time I've ever played with you, IG and now you're just taking the dialogue to a toxic place so let's not.

[Derain]

I have to agree if there is a reason to PK do it especially if someone is trying to ruin your plots or kill your characters friends. You'd be stupid not to.

[Miradus]

I've had a character who died to their own clanmate who should not have killed their own blood but did so regardless because of EZ PK.

I think I'm the one who did that. I regretted it soon after in that it not only didn't foster the conflict and plot I had thought it would, and also that it left me with nobody to play with. I continue to regret it, I apologize, and I learned from it. That was one of those "I don't have time to think this through but I'm going to do it anyway" moments.

The reality is that not every PK goes the way you want. Sometimes I just meant to knock people out and rob them and then the gamecode killed them. Sometimes you want it to be better, but it just doesn't always come together.

It's a learning experience. I want to kill each of you with love and proper attention to give you the story's end you miserable bastards so richly deserve. Especially the ones who have put in the time and devotion to crafting a really solid character. I want you to play that character for months and months, interacting with me as a villain, before you finally get put into the grinder and I give you the long villain's monologue. I want you to know for weeks ahead of time that you've become involved in something deadly, scary, and that will result in your horrible demise if you're not very lucky. But that's an art form that's hard to master. It's difficult to pull off in a game where there's timing, crimcode, social allies, and a host of other things going on.

So forgive me if I sometimes fall short of the mark and you get an end that's premature, unresolved, and unsatisfying. I'm trying.

[deskoft]

Lets try to keep the healthy debate and not fall on personal attacks that do not have a place in this community.

Bebop: I think at least I am agreeing with you on the key of your statement and disagreeing on others. I think what Krath pointed out is summarily my idea of it. I disagree that our playerbase is tiny but thats going to be an agree to disagree situation.

My idea is: Do what your character would do, while it is IC and is mindful of other players on an OOC basis but not on an IC basis.

GOOD

• You raid someone and after some roleplay they run: you drop then unconscious and leave them to bleed.
• A feud between warring merchants ends with the PK of another after a building rivalry.
• Someone screws on your business: you warn them several times and they do not get it. They ontinue screwing your business: you kill someone they apprciate.
• Your character is a tribal. He sees a foreigner in their land. They die.

This isnt a tell YOUR story game. This is a be cast into a big, oonglasting story game. The reactions above I feel are IC thematic. Nobody can say they are inconsistent. They are realistically messed up reactions.

That said, Im not saying PK is the way. As real life, PK is usually a last resort. Why not block their plot and overpower them?

If youre killing PCs without a good reason: reconsider. Was this really desperately needed? Was my PC in a really threatening position? Was there no way I could send this message without PKing.(we even have mutilation).

[Vox]

This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they aren't Arm material.

Murder is literally one third of our mission statement, and often goes hand in hand with Corruption and Betrayal. If a player is concerned their death was suspect they can send in a request.. I'd love if Staff responses, drawing on the PK report of the murderer, can assure the 'victim' player their death was pre-meditated, part of a plot, etc. perhaps even offer a possible bio entry for context since deaths can be quick and startling.

[Bebop]

This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they aren't Arm material.

Murder is literally one third of our mission statement, and often goes hand in hand with Corruption and Betrayal. If a player is concerned their death was suspect they can send in a request.. I'd love if Staff responses, drawing on the PK report of the murderer, can assure the 'victim' player their death was pre-meditated, part of a plot, etc. perhaps even offer a possible bio entry for context since deaths can be quick and startling.

I love the idea of a bio entry but I don't think that's gonna happen since it would probably reveal things the player wasn't privy to.
Also, I don't think people quitting is always intentional or out of anger, it's just inevitable burn out if PK gets to frequent and dips in quality.

You better not start PKing more Vox.  You're really a softy on the inside, I know it! 

Really, I just want all PCs to turn into anthropomorphic Tuluki tregils.  That was my secret point to this thread all along.  I became a furry in my five years of absence. 

I'm starting to feel really guilty I tried to veil it in a plea for a more RP based code and play style.

[number13]

whatever.

[Rumor]

In a truly savage world, sparing someone is a risk. There is little tangible leverage you can hold over characters beyond the threat of death or ultimately killing someone and this is largely in part due to how little material possessions and finances matter in the game world, how little status matters among commoners without the backing of brutality or nobility and how very trivial it becomes to feed ones self after a modicum of experience. What this means is, you can threaten someone in various clever ways and they are unlikely to respond or you can threaten their life. People respond to this.

People respond to the threat of death with loyalty, companionship, camaraderie, savagery, betrayal, conspiracy and a host of other things. Getting what you want when someone else doesn't want you to have it is Armageddon. And the way you get what you want in a savage, desert planet devoid of civility and understanding is you murder them. You can out play them, out smart them and out maneuver them politically, but ultimately it's all boiling down to access to one thing: access to the ones with the sword. It'll always come down to death or it won't be Armageddon.