Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game

[sleepyhead]

TLH -- I don't know if you caught this, but under the system I proposed, new players would be no closer to playing any kind of gicker (touched or aspect) than they ever were, since all touched would be bumped up to 2 karma and aspects to 3+. So this would literally only affect who gets to play mundane extended subguilds*, which, unlike gickers or other races, are no more challenging or demanding to RP than regular subguilds. And while there are some powerful and abusable combos, it's veteran players that I worry you have to watch with them, not utter newbies who have never branched anything in their lives.

Look. I like you. I mean, I really do. I respect you so much as a player. But from reading your posts on the GDB, sometimes I think you get overly fixated on the idea that everyone around you is an entitled snowflake. And you're not entirely wrong; I agree with you sometimes that some people get a bit demanding. But not EVERY disagreement can be boiled down to everyone else being a lazy millennial who just has to have that participation trophy. Extended subguilds used to be something everyone had equal (but limited) access to, before they were tied to the karma system. I'm just suggesting a way to get back to something closer to that original vision, not giving newbies a fast track to playing sorcs and psis because I live in a happy pixie dust lala-equality-land where having to earn things is unfair. Magickers, HGs, muls, etc. are a whole different animal and I'm glad they're highly gated.

EDIT: *I suppose it might also affect who gets to play desert-elves, but we can bump those up to 2 karma too.

[Harmless]

To me, a class that provides "minor" buffs like that you describe is exactly "splashing everything with glitter." Mages shouldn't dominate plots, but they shouldn't infuse everything either. Magick should be rare, dangerous, and weird, and such a class wouldn't accomplish any of that. It's as much a trivialization of magick as a group of X-Men Gemmed solving all problems are.

To answer the Original Post, the players of magickers get flak because so many of them are (or were) rather blatantly after the coded power that the (sub)Guilds provided. Magick is just codified twinkage. Maybe if it had more coded drawbacks it wouldn't get the same amount of hate, similar to how people rarely disparage mul players compared to dwarf players. Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

I would emphasize a strong WERE for the "blatant coded power" of the mainguilds. But, I would also note (and agree with) an important fact that if you wanted to get anything done as a magicker before, you were forced to use a lot of magick to do it, because magick totally replaced all normal class abilities: combat, defense, crafting, detection, mobility, stealth, etc. Countering your post, there WERE multiple coded disadvantages for mainguilded magickers, namely their utter lack of main-class level abilities that provide basic survival skills and crafting skills. There were and still are the non-coded penalties socially that I think aren't up for debate here.

However, I get you that the "sprinkle pixie dust on everything" is not desirable for Armageddon. I agree completely, it doesn't fit a low-fantasy setting.

I tried to play magickers differently than that. Sure, I would practice a lot with the mainguild magickers in a temple to branch spells, because I wanted to have options; I tried to do it with roleplay, even solo RP, but as much as I could I would involve other magickers in my practice. If I was a rogue mage it would be more interesting then because there was so much more practicing to do (out of necessity) and therefore harder to hide.

If I were going to use mainguild magick I -tried- to avoid using them in too-visible a way. It was challenging at times; the way magick worked would mandate a whole room shaking or something equally ridiculous when you saw the emote. (I still have a problem with the fact that all casting involves chanting, a room-spook emote like a ball of flames or mist flying everywhere). However, things like a few hidden buffs were pretty fun, because people would wonder exactly what the magick was doing for your PC. As such, I tried to avoid say the "stoneskin" spell, or big magickal weapons sticking out of my PC's ass.

As a result, my magickers would often be a little less "accomplished" if coded accomplishment is the point of everything, but they were respected, because I was trying to fit the "low fantasy" theme despite having a broad variety of spells.  It also meant that, for example, a drov beetle would randomly 1-hit me BECAUSE i didn't have buffs on at all times that made my character survivable.
(This is in fact how my 30 day+ or whatever it was magicker ended up dying, after having been around for several Arm of the Dragon RPTs and being involved in the stories of other gemmed, some mundanes, some Templars, and some criminal scum).

Conclusion: I do appreciate strongly that the subguilds give magickers some self-reliance without needing to constantly spam magick all day. It better achieves a subtlety of a low-fantasy setting because "getting things done" (i.e., being involved in some plots, staying alive, making contacts) doesn't require twinkly-sparks all day and all night.

I would also add that "choosing magickers for coded advantages" is not true any longer because of some factors that you would understand if you played several of them currently. Overall, I think the GDB hatred of magickers, particularly the subguilds, needs to just vanish as a result of these two things, because it directly deals with the criticisms that respected players such as BadSkeelz listed above. In fact, I would argue these changes went into effect almost fully because of the community's discussions about magickers and these downsides to the old mainguilds that I agree did exist for some players of them.

But, I would also maintain my own counterpoint that at least the way I was playing mainguilds, I tried (and I hope, accomplished) being subtle, I didn't use magick constantly, I kept people guessing; it was possible, but it did require taking a lot of risk (such as by knowing you were unprepared for danger unless covered in magick buffs), it required more patience to await that cool opportunity to have magick play an intriguing role in a storyline, and it required heavy reliance on a subguild that would get you the ability to play a believable Zalanthan instead of just a magickal battery.

I also maintain that there could have been other ways to accomplish subtlety and removing the total reliance on highly-visible magick without just completely removing all the mainguilds, such as changing the magickal emotes, the magickal spell functions, etc.

Note for below: Don't overthink me hailing Badskeelz, just using him as an example of many vocal, active players, players who do often play or have played high ranking leadership roles and who I respect for their understanding of the setting. In fact, I greatly enjoyed playing a particular long lived magicker and interacting with him when he played a particular Lieutenant in The Arm. I would like to think he might not have made his strong opinions if he had more chances to interact with magickers using that shit more like I did and less like the stuff he unfortunately had repeated exposures to.

[Eyeball]

because it directly deals with the criticisms that respected players such as BadSkeelz listed above

BadSkeelz is respected? When did that happen? 

Listen, if your measure is satisfying BadSkeelz' criticisms (past and present), nothing short of removing elementalist magick altogether will suffice.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd be perfectly fine if full guild elementalists were restricted to tribals. I've never denied magick doesn't have a place in Arm. I just don't care much for how it's implemented.

It's a topic for another thread, anyhow.

[Feco]

I unabashedly love magick and invite attempts at shaming!

[Akaramu]

I unabashedly love magick and invite attempts at shaming!

You dirty magick lover you

[infinitehope]

I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.

I always Hemoted these sorts of things anyway as a magicker. Nothing is certain with magick. I know a popular one is to play upon emotions causing 'magical outbursts' .  Should be done a lot more often, imo, but its often seen as risky because people will often immediately dial the 'reaction' gauge up to 11.

[CodeMaster]

I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.

I always Hemoted these sorts of things anyway as a magicker. Nothing is certain with magick. I know a popular one is to play upon emotions causing 'magical outbursts' .  Should be done a lot more often, imo, but its often seen as risky because people will often immediately dial the 'reaction' gauge up to 11.

Interesting!  I'm only vaguely aware of the cantrips spells Riev mentions.

I was thinking more along the lines of magickers affecting the coded weather -- no hemotes or anything like that, just unusual heat when you type weather and you happen to be in the vicinity of a Suk-krath or two.  For plants replenishing, I was thinking the plant objects that are literally already in the game and spawn fruit, leaves, and branches that you can pick.  Or, I don't know, making it so Vivaduans are only able to add the smallest scars to themselves from the scar shoppe.

So, subtly altering the behavior of mechanisms that are already in the game in a way that reinforces suspicion and superstition and even witch hunts.

[stoicreader]

Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

I made a dwarf guide. Dwarves rock. Don't hate.

[seidhr]

Drive-by commentary:

1) Touched subguilds do get spells.  They receive a mixture of mundane skills and spells.  Non-touched magicker subguilds only get spells (with the necessary accompanying non-spell skills to be able to do spell stuff).  They can still be pretty powerful.

2) Having a different shaped gem with less severe penalties for touched subguilds is never going to happen.  From a layman's perspective, magick is magick and it's scary whether you can only cast one spell or seventy-six. The concept of guilds/subguilds is also a purely OOC mechanic. ICly, there's no such thing.

3) Magicker subguilds can still be insanely powerful - capable of killing 50 or 100 day warriors from a much younger age.

4) The cantrip spells do exist, but I don't believe the subguilds get them(?) - I'd have to look.  For the most part they don't actually do anything but echo to the room (at a cost of mana), and could be emoted.

5) Once the main guild revamp is done we have plans to look at (mundane and magick) subguilds too.

[Harmless]

Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

[MeTekillot]

Reintroduce full magick guilds as additions to main guilds.

Full skill list of mundane, full spell list. Control with an iron fist pupulation quota or just use the current system, I don't care. MAKE MAGICK GREAT AGAIN

[Hauwke]

Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

I would assume a 20 days played warrior with fireball would be terrifying. Open with a blast and just sword the last few hp away. Or an assassin who can make themself stupidly strong with magick could do the exact same thing just with backstab instead.

Its a simple matter of combining the two now instead of only uber-mega-fireball-of-dooming a guy or lightning bolting them to the face.

[Harmless]

An IC fear that is indeed terrifying. However I have yet to hear or see or accomplish that in game. If you ever have a character who actually died to someone using that kind of strategy, then let us know well over a year after it happened. For now, it's something you're assuming.

There are reasons why this kind of thing is unlikely to happen, and I am not here to argue the code or the IC/RP challenges (the rightful ones, by the way, I am not against the fact that this kind of thing isn't happening). Just...like I said, when your assumptions become reality, let us know.

I'll be waiting to hear about it.

[Riev]

Drive-by commentary:

4) The cantrip spells do exist, but I don't believe the subguilds get them(?) - I'd have to look.  For the most part they don't actually do anything but echo to the room (at a cost of mana), and could be emoted.

Drive-by retort:

is there any way that we can get a list of the Cantrips that DO exist, and their effects? Reasoning being:

They are still a spell, which means you can't/shouldn't really "cast" in public or at the Gaj. (I don't know about legal issues, but you shouldn't be uttering incantations in public).

If they are no longer attached to the subguilds, why even have them in game when they could serve another purpose?

If you gave it out in the Acceptance Email that "Here are 'some examples' of the room echoes that might go on around you" and just paste the cantrip effects, it would give us (me) much more room to play with for what is "acceptable".

For the record, the mon-level cantrips often had some sort of physical effect. I had one character who actually effected the room's light, once.

[Brokkr]

Cantrip
(Magick)
A cantrip is a minor magickal effect produced consciously or otherwise by an elementalist. They are expressions of the elementalist's element and deal exclusively in that element.

Some cantrips are overt - a Vivaduan exhaling mist, for example. Others are more subtle - such as a Rukkian always being dusty. Others are even subtler still - being barely, if at all, perceived by even the elementalist themselves: a Whiran's uncanny ability to read the wind or a Krathi's aptitude for managing a cook fire.

An inexperienced or manifesting elementalist often (but not always) cannot control their production of cantrips. With greater understanding and practice these spontaneous cantrips can be brought to heel. Some elementalists also struggle to control their powers when experiencing high emotion or stress - and this too can be controlled through a greater understanding of their elemental bond.

A minority of elementalists experience their bonds more wholly through cantrips - they find themselves possessing a greater attunement to the expressions of their element in the world around them. These 'touched' elementalists often find they have greater capacity in skills that their cantrips give them an edge in.

Cantrips are not a replacement for actual spells. If using a cantrip to replicate an actual spell, the spell itself should be used.

A cantrip can be one of several spells.  It can be what is happening around you when you are casting spells.  It can be an h/emote.  They can be voluntary or involuntary.  It can be emoting that you are able to climb well because the rock is helping you to climb.  In other words, it is fairly open ended, with certain illusionary spells being a small part (or not, depending on how you look at cantrips) of what is possible.

[seidhr]

Drive-by retort:
....
They are still a spell, which means you can't/shouldn't really "cast" in public or at the Gaj. (I don't know about legal issues, but you shouldn't be uttering incantations in public).
....
For the record, the mon-level cantrips often had some sort of physical effect. I had one character who actually effected the room's light, once.

If you're using cantrips in the Gaj about your skin getting unnaturally moist or the fire in a lantern bending to your will, I would hope some AoD soldier would arrest you, whether you are "cast"ing the spell or emoting the effect.

Yes, some of the cantrips could sometimes produce a coded effect.  That is why I said "for the most part" at the start of that sentence.

[MeTekillot]

So what if magickers were retardedly powerful and mundane PCs were outclassed? That's how the world works according to its documentation...

[Synthesis]

Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

I would assume a 20 days played warrior with fireball would be terrifying. Open with a blast and just sword the last few hp away. Or an assassin who can make themself stupidly strong with magick could do the exact same thing just with backstab instead.

Its a simple matter of combining the two now instead of only uber-mega-fireball-of-dooming a guy or lightning bolting them to the face.

Having played a 40-day warrior with a magick subguild...yeah.  Magick will still wreck your shit, guys.  All you have to do is stop main-guilding merchants and expecting to be badass.  You have to put in a ton of work now, and take a lot of risks, but after a while, it pays off.

[MeTekillot]

Full magicker subguilds.

[Nao]

After playing a subguild magicker (not touched) that got no combat help whatsoever for 20+ days - it varies, not all subguilds are created equal.

[Synthesis]

After playing a subguild magicker (not touched) that got no combat help whatsoever for 20+ days - it varies, not all subguilds are created equal.

Yeah, you have to min-max it to an extent (as with any other guild/subguild combo).

An artisan/krathi-devastation prooooobably is not going to be so great at devastating.  A viv-healer in a totally non-combat role probably isn't going to be much use at all.  And so on.

It's not that big a deal, and there are now a whole lot more main guild options, so if you end up with a totally useless PC...I mean...you have to take a little responsibility yourself, for that.

[MeTekillot]

Full magicker subguilds

Less grind, more gangster shit.

[Nao]

After playing a subguild magicker (not touched) that got no combat help whatsoever for 20+ days - it varies, not all subguilds are created equal.

Yeah, you have to min-max it to an extent (as with any other guild/subguild combo).

An artisan/krathi-devastation prooooobably is not going to be so great at devastating.  A viv-healer in a totally non-combat role probably isn't going to be much use at all.  And so on.

It's not that big a deal, and there are now a whole lot more main guild options, so if you end up with a totally useless PC...I mean...you have to take a little responsibility yourself, for that.

There is no way to know exactly what you're getting with the magick subguilds, unless you've played that type before. It wouldn't have changed much for that PC, and it led to some very interesting RP, so I'm not angry or anything. Just a bit disappointed about getting nothing whatsoever that would have been useful for combat, and that "magick will wreck your shit" isn't necessarily true. Some of these subguilds are just completely useless at wrecking anything, no matter what guild class or concept you combine them with.

[Brokkr]

Or, you know, maybe there was potential in the ubclass you hadn't unlocked.

It reminds me of someone else that sent in a rather thorough and thoughtful request about how their magic subguild sucked.  And I had to bite my tongue, because they were literally so close to branching the spells that would totally make their concept.