Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game

[Strongheart]

I've noticed over my time of playing here that there seems to be this stigma against those who enjoy playing with magick. I am curious as to why this is when they have just as much right as being a character as a mundane would. Now, it can't be that it isn't challenging because it certainly is. You're subjecting yourself to being ignored or given a certain attention in a negative way that you may not want normally by others along with the fact that you're damaging yourself with having to rely solely on your main guild around others (excluding touched). Is it because people consider this a "special snowflake" sort of dilemma? If that is the case, let's keep in mind that whether you agree to this statement or not, it won't make it any less true: you are the main character of your own story. Having abilities like these does not make you any more special than sponsored roles (contextually special snowflakes and yes I'm shaming them because it's an equally nonsensical example) or some Lamos Amos.

Thoughts?

[MeTekillot]

People have interpreted Arm's "low-fantasy"() setting as meaning "rare fantastical elements", instead of "fantastical elements in an otherwise ordinary world". Absolutely nothing about Arm's setting being ordinary doesn't seem to come into this. Tight-lipped culture (due to IC discovery of things apparently being part of the draw of Arm) around IC events and mechanics has discouraged discussion of magick whatsoever until a recent cultural shift in the GDB cracked open that nut a little more (probably helped by a bunch of grumpy players posting every single coded thing they knew on the shadowboard).

There's also just good old-fashioned being able to feel superior as a reason for people to be smug about never playing magickers, or never doing magick with their unmanifested magicker, and people have been rewarded karma for flagellating themselves by picking a class whose skills they never used, so the stigma is reinforced.

Staff have also steadily been busting magick access to shit in an effort to move the game toward a low-magick direction (as per their behavior with the breaking up of sorcerers and main guild Elementalists, as well as some of my correspondence with them during my 2(?) year stint as an Oashi noble.) Rude wake-up call for those of us that like magick and its place in the world, or rather, the place it used to have in the world.

[MeTekillot]

I'm of the opinion that your 60 day warrior being able to have his shit utterly ruined nearly on accident by most random gickers is good for the game. The game isn't supposed to be fair. Magick is supposed to be scary.

[Lizzie]

100% on board with Metikillot.

I didn't think it was a good idea to *dilute* magicks by splitting up the elements, though I sincerely don't have a problem with eliminating elkros, drov, and nilaz AS LONG AS their spells remain in the game, within the ability of the sorcerer subguilds at some point (which was confirmed by staff on a thread back when they were announcing/discussing this).

Rather than diluting, they should have allowed fewer characters of each element. Make them karma-restricted AND require a special app.

Allow just a couple of FULL-guild mages of each element: ruk, whira, krath, vivadu.

Allow a couple of subguild sorcs.

Allow a couple of full-guild sorcs.

Allow a couple or three mindbenders.

Allow up to one psi/sorc.

But here's the rub. I think transparency to the playerbase would be a BAD thing for this plan. We shouldn't know, oocly, that there are up to 2 mindworms and no more, around. Because if we kill two characters we think are mindworms, we start roleplaying as though they're all dead and we can relax our roleplaying suspicion and distrust. If we kill one, we will RP that we know there might be another one.

The lines between ooc knowledge and IC behavior are blurred, I've seen it, I've been the victim of it, I've done it, not even realizing I was doing it til it was pointed out to me.

So I don't think the number of mages of each element and mindbender and sorcerer roles should be announced. But I do think the staff should absolutely put strict limits on how many should be available to the playerbase, whether by karma or special app or both. And they should be full guilds.

[Akaramu]

100% on board with Metikillot.

Same here. 'Balancing' (even if it wasn't meant as such) hurts a game that is supposed to be unfair by design. That unfairness is the reason I fell in love with it in the first place.

So what if magickers were retardedly powerful and mundane PCs were outclassed? That's how the world works according to its documentation...

[The Lonely Hunter]

I dig Lizzie's ideas here. Especially with the transparent thing. Players don't need to know the details. I think Arm is more fun when things are shaded as opposed to when everything is right there in the open. Part of the appeal of the game, for me at least, is the unknown.

[number13]

((moderated)) death machines with the ability to ((mess with your day)), or send you to a random death by typing a couple words, for whom the optimal play is hiding alone in a cave and spamming meaningless spells until they have the ability to do all of the above.

"Fun".

[Eyeball]

((moderated)) death machines with the ability to ((mess with your day)), or send you to a random death by typing a couple words, for whom the optimal play is hiding alone in a cave and spamming meaningless spells until they have the ability to do all of the above.

"Fun".

Wouldn't it be so much fun if more of those spells could actually create something lasting, instead of nearly all either being used to destroy or produce something that disappears a few moments later?

[Eyeball]

Here is my difficulty with the position that any encounter between a mage and an experienced warrior should basically be a 50/50 split on who wins:

If the mage wins, he's probably totally spent and won't be ready for another encounter for quite a while.

If the warrior wins, he just goes on and fights the next thing.

Why should anyone want to be a mage in this context?

Also, people will still complain even if this is the arrangement, because two mages combining their powers is multiplicative, not additive like it is for warriors.

How gimped do you want mages to be?

Seems to me that mages (but not sorcerers) need to be repurposed away from combat and toward some other role in the game.

[Delirium]

Be careful with this thread guys. Already having to edit out references to specific magic spells.

[sleepyhead]

This thread seems to be veering away from its original purpose. Yes, the old mages were OP. Some people abused that. Some people abuse the power of the ranger guild, too. And yes, while it takes a lot longer and is riskier to become a maxxed ranger than it ever was to become a maxxed mage, it's not really all that more "respectable" to me to type "kill stilt" a thousand times than it is to spam "cast 'kral nil elkros oogety boogety'" in a cave. Neither one of those things is "hard"--combat is automatic in this game, after all--and both are tedious and can be very unfun. Nothing about either of those paths to greatness is particularly OOCly awe-inspiring to me. Being a savvy political player was always more impressive as far as I'm concerned. You actually have to be OOCly smart (can't be ICly smart if you aren't OOCly smart) and outmaneuver/outplay people, not just log in for hours a day and get your dodges/concentration losses in. But social/political players get almost as much flak as magicker players. Sometimes I think it's just the OOC perception of the "manliness" factor. Gickers and social/political roles are seen as more feminine roles, so they get accused of being unfairly handed everything they have, whereas powerful combat characters are seen as masculine and thus "earned" the respect they have, ICly and OOCly. It's just a theory, and it's probably not going to win me any friends, but that's what it looks like sometimes.

Now, even as someone who plays a hell of a lot of gickers, I gicker-shame too. When I find out ICly that someone's a magicker, my immediate kneejerk OOC response is to groan and go, "Not another one." I do think there are often too many running around. When karma spending is fully operational, I hope this goes a little way towards fixing it, because I for one have only seen more magickers since the changes. But it really isn't the gicker players' faults. Nobody knows how many other freaks there are in the world at a given time. Like everyone else, they just had a concept they were excited about playing. And they have to branch parry like everyone else now, too, so enough with the OOC hate.

As for the IC hate, bring it on.

EDIT: To briefly address the main guild/subguild issue: I don't believe main guilds are ever coming back, just like full sorcs are probably never coming back. Psis are probably going to get subguilded eventually, too. I do feel encouraged by the fact that subguild sorcs were expanded not once, but twice. I would like to see something like that happen to sub elementalists. Magick might actually be scary again.

[AdamBlue]

Totally aside here, all of these 'moderated posts' are pretty dumb imho. Maybe the rules should be changed in regards to magic or something.

[tapas]

Way to ruin an awesome thread title by using it to title a GDB thread. kidding

Huffing about full guild magickers is kinda getting old now. They aren't coming back and doesn't belong in this thread.

As far as the op, it's just hard for a number of reasons.

#1 Probably being that if want to treat magickers as threatening, scary monsters, the best option is to avoid them. But that means that you're never interacting with them and so those negative interactions are never seen.

#2 You could easily have your character taken away from you. I've seen it. You've seen. People have been arrowed at the bar for it. Aggressively interacting with other players will frequently get you killed "Just because."

#3 Being buddy-buddy is low-effort and comes with the benefit of having this scary awful monster as an ally.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

If people know you're playing a gicker oocly, you're doing it wrong. 

[Armaddict]

Gicker shaming has less to do with people liking magick and more to do with them turning it into their main enjoyment of the game, then turning around and insisting the game should expand or change to make it a larger focus of the game.

If you're just playing snickers in the setting, you should assume the generalities are not including you, hard as that may be at times.

[tapas]

Baha. I actually thought this was just ANOTHER thread about characters being nice to magickers.

My bad for skimming.

---

As far as the actual topic goes, I don't think I've actually been shamed for playing a magicker role. But I have been shamed for a taking a karma class and never manifesting it. And then playing another karma class and then never using it... sooo.

And then hearing the "You really like your high karma roles don't you?" Even though two out of three are effectively mundanes.

Here's a question: Should you accept magicker shame if you never actually cast any of the magick?

[frankjacoby]

I'm of the opinion that your 60 day warrior being able to have his shit utterly ruined nearly on accident by most random gickers is good for the game. The game isn't supposed to be fair. Magick is supposed to be scary.

By accident

[CodeMaster]

I think playing a gemmed mage is/was one of the hardest roles to play in this game.  If you play it impeccably (imo) it's a lonely role of solo RP and complete hermitude.  If you want to see other players, you have to hang out in taverns, and then you're saddled with depicting the virtual world's negative reactions to you.

Players still argue about what those "negative reactions" should be because it's a creative writing game, and magick is basically the most important cornerstone of fear and hatred in Zalanthas.  For example, the tyranny of the dragon force-united bands of elven tribes before they even shared a language -- imagine how powerful a force would have to be to do that.

The importance of this interpretation to every one of us is, in my opinion, the main reason mage players get a lot of flak (I don't know if I buy the power argument -- yes, they can pkill, but 95% of them are relatively easy for another powerful player to pkill too... and you don't need any other excuse than what they are).

My last random thought on this is that I wouldn't want magick to become easy to ignore in this game.  It would be interesting, for example, if there were a creature or a force that could be aligned with/against, especially by mage characters, that was impossible to ignore.  We have Allanak and Tektolnes (and I'm hearing the gith stuff was awesome for a while, but I completely missed that boat), but what about cults?  What about powerful creatures from beyond the known who wish to pillage the knowledge of the cities' libraries (or destroy said knowledge)?  A dormant Suk-Krathian manifestation trapped underneath the sea of silt, only able to speak and direct action through 'touched' characters?

[MeTekillot]

I'm of the opinion that your 60 day warrior being able to have his shit utterly ruined nearly on accident by most random gickers is good for the game. The game isn't supposed to be fair. Magick is supposed to be scary.

By accident

Language drifts, shifts, and takes on new meaning in new or old contexts. I communicated my point, and is that not the point of posting or speaking?

[Harmless]

OOC discriminating against the opinions of players who play a lot of magickers is pretty stupid. I mean, I played several magickers, both mainguilded and subguilded. I also played like 40 other characters who were mundane. Are you going to call me less of a player, or a "questionable" RPer over this? If so, then you're playing the wrong game. They have these guilds/subguilds as options for a reason. Magick ruined Zalanthas. It exists.

As for the concerns I see posted over magick, let me tell you from experiences with multiple subguilds by now, they were MASSIVELY rebalanced, not just from the spell selection standpoint (which is detailed in the helpfiles), but from the ability to branch standpoint. MASSIVELY. Your concerns of a 60 day warrior ever dying to a magicker who only played for a few weeks are long gone, folks.

[James de Monet]

This one goes both ways, I think.  Magick should be scary and OP, it's literally what defines the setting (world destroyed by magick).  At the same time, you don't want it to be such realized OP or so prevalent that it constantly eclipses the mundane world, which is where most characters should be playing.

If you're pissed off about your mundanes getting owned by magick...I think you might be playing the wrong game.  The whole WORLD has already been owned by magick, and is still enslaved by its users.  That being said, magick definitely has the propensity to be abused by griefers, but the idea is that this is why it's karma-gated, and more closely monitored, so that the atrocities committed with it are not prevented, but done in keeping with the theme and documentation.

[Cind]

They are hard roles, that's honestly why I don't go for them much anymore after it started costing karma to get them. But they're fun, in their own ways.

I've seen abuse of magick power, I think we all have. But, honestly? If they want to spend all that time spamcasting to get that power, they've done a lot of the punishment themselves. Man, I don't see how people put up with that particular grind.

I wanted to say that I miss the walking monthly plotlines that nilazis were. They would stay hidden for a while, spreading the occasional rumor about their plans and rise to power, and then they'd wreck house on Allanak, dying magnificently, and then a month later you'd hear about the same thing beginning to happen again. I've never played one, but I don't really understand why they were culled, and think they should be open for sponsored roles.

[MeTekillot]

A hard or soft cap on magickers in-game would have been a better solution than busting magick access, features, and guilds to pieces, in my opinion.

[Riev]

You don't know people are shaming you OOCly for playing a magicker if you don't talk to people OOCly.

[Ghaati111]

You don't know people are shaming you OOCly for playing a magicker if you don't talk to people OOCly.

Pretty sure they're referring to threads and posts that have been started and continued right here on the GDB.

[TheWanderer]

Fuck. I love shaming players of all categories: warriors, merchants, assassins, magickers, burglars, pickpockets, psions, sorcerers, nobles, templars, tribals, elves, half-giants, dwarves, muls. 

Lemme confirm this for them without having to converse OOC.

You should feel ashamed for playing a magicker, you repulsive snowflakes. You're using magick to replace a lack of interesting qualities in your writing with the crutch of fantastical qualities to seem slightly less boring than you are. You magickers are the equivalent of people who dye their hair blue in real life! Your ideal storytelling is the reason Game of Thrones lost all nuance and devolved into dragons versus ice zombies. God, I'd beat you with a shame stick every single day if I could.

If we don't come together and shame them as a collective, we'll never stop the disease.

Edit: Whoops. Almost forgot those dumb fucking rangers.

[stoicreader]

It's shameful to play a weird text-based roleplay game. Magicker shame... it's not any better.

[Dar]

Personally. Between an initiative to get staff to return karma reviews and some kind of structured ways of encouraging new playeras and an initiative of changing magick, or anything of that fashion, I would personally dedicate my outrage and peer pressure influence into the karma review stuff.  All these gicker guilds, gicker subguilds and so on, can come later.

[Akaramu]

Personally. Between an initiative to get staff to return karma reviews and some kind of structured ways of encouraging new playeras and an initiative of changing magick, or anything of that fashion, I would personally dedicate my outrage and peer pressure influence into the karma review stuff.  All these gicker guilds, gicker subguilds and so on, can come later.

Karma isn't all that useful without gickers that are worth playing (to me at least).

[lostinspace]

Personally. Between an initiative to get staff to return karma reviews and some kind of structured ways of encouraging new playeras and an initiative of changing magick, or anything of that fashion, I would personally dedicate my outrage and peer pressure influence into the karma review stuff.  All these gicker guilds, gicker subguilds and so on, can come later.

Karma isn't all that useful without gickers that are worth playing (to me at least).

That's really what I want karma for as well, that and the occasional extended subguild, which I feel should be baseline anyhow.

[sleepyhead]

Add 1 more karma level (4 total) and start everyone with 1 karma. You still have to spend it to buy extended subs, but everyone gets access.

[stoicreader]

I'm in favor for magick to be random. Like you log on your character on an account that's algorithmically aged and are offered,

"This character had the misfortune of being cursed by the magical element of Whira, aspect of tempest. You can choose not to manifest these powers in game and just ignore it. But your character knows something is wrong with them."

Do this once every 50 character applications or do a roll 1 out of 50 or 25 or something.

[Riev]

I'm in favor for magick to be random. Like you log on your character on an account that's algorithmically aged and are offered,

"This character had the misfortune of being cursed by the magical element of Whira, aspect of tempest. You can choose not to manifest these powers in game and just ignore it. But your character knows something is wrong with them."

Do this once every 50 character applications or do a roll 1 out of 50 or 25 or something.

Its been discussed before, and shot down a lot. If I don't want to play a magick character, don't make me play one. I don't care if its "random", this is the character I want to play, in a crazy made up world. A system in which sometimes random shit happens to you is some sort of roguelike indie game and I don't want it.

Also, if you shift karma +1, so everyone has 1 karma, why not just shift karma DOWN one and say that people with 0 karma can apply for <x> instead?

Also, Karma is almost exclusively to play an unbalanced class. You're not playing "a cool dude with fireballs but also its balanced against your mundane warrior". Its "You have the staff trust to roleplay a fireball dude APPROPRIATELY, because fireballs are summoning fire where there is no fire and its unbalanced for a 0-karma PC". That's why you get karma. To play the unbalanced roles and flavor their destructive power with the weaknesses of your personality flaws.

Lets not pretend we're getting karma to be staff pets or make them happy. Its so that we can play something OP without having to ask permission first.

[LucildaHunta]

I always liked you Riev.

[valeria]

I think it's silly to shame people for what they like to play. I personally can't keep a gicker alive and interesting to save my life, but I've played around some very stellar ones.

I do wish full magic guilds were brought back for those who want to play them. The only things I don't miss are drovian super spies. There is a lot more seedy underbelly able to go on these days, or at least so it feels from my experience.

[sleepyhead]

Also, if you shift karma +1, so everyone has 1 karma, why not just shift karma DOWN one and say that people with 0 karma can apply for <x> instead?

Because it will still have to regenerate, so if the idea is to have a mix of extended and non-extended subs, it'd still be achieved. Touched would become 2 karma.

[MarshallDFX]

Confusion about class balance and game balance abounds... If you don't want game.balance you really are treating it like your playground

[Armaddict]

I wouldn't say that.

I've been okay with mages being far more powerful than mundanes for a long time.  I'm still okay with it.  The idea of 'class balance' moves things away from RPG and into other avenues, and that's odd for me to be one to say since I'm more deeply invested in PvP as INTEGRAL to the game of armageddon.  Not just helpful.  Completely necessary.

The only part where I've gotten irritated is when the game itself begins pushing into magickal superiority, i.e. Public revulsion doesn't matter, templars ignore it because mages are powerful and useful, or nobles all have the secret wish to find out more about magick, or mages are pushing all the time to be made more involved in all clans, and so on and so forth.

The balance for them has always been the social balance.  Whenever I see people trying to 'nerf' that portion of the balance without some significant tradeoff, I do indeed shame them for wanting to play a mage without wanting to play a mage -in the game of armageddon-.

[number13]

In an inherently social game, it's perhaps a mistake to make a popular archetype into a social pariah.

I like playing social pariahs. Being the gruesome thing that lurks in the sewers is right up my alley, or the crazed hermit that lives in a cave. But playing a horror-balls sewer freak isn't as much fun if there isn't a vibrant society above ground to spread rumors/turn their nose up/run away in fear. And even in the best of times, there was never enough players to sequester off a sub-society and say, "You shall not commune with the rest of the game, except in these very, very, very limited ways."

Arm 2.0 was going to fix it, sort of.

For the people who like playing prancing magicians, it would nice if the *-touched classes got some actual spells (if they don't already. I don't know), but not as much social stigma as ordinary elementalists. Treat them like half-elves. Like, you can be *-touched, wear a (differently shaped) gem, but still join the Byn or a merchant house.

[Armaddict]

In an inherently social game, it's perhaps a mistake to make a popular archetype into a social pariah.

It's actually not inherently social, it's inherently interactive.  Yes, there is a difference, though I'm uncertain if that's exactly what you were going for (social, as a word, has developed a certain meaning for me in discussion of Arm, because of the 'social' type player archetype vs explorer vs achiever, etc.)

Anyway.  The point was that there was plenty of things for mages to accomplish and do, it just didn't involve a bunch of random people motivating them or corralling (sp?) them up for joining their plots.  Largely self-motivated, they uncovered their own ways to impact the game, either in side settings that most main clans or mundane groups didn't really know much about or have the ability to impact, or in interfering in other people's plots in random ways that, of course, made those people hate mages (ta-da! social pariahs!).

There was a big mixup in an era when people thought Arm 2 was coming, where that line got utterly fucked with by magickal plots affecting the mundane but having the mundane be worthless against it, and an increased gemmed mage presence that made the typical -rogue- mage of the previous era less viable/desirable.

Anyway.  That's kind of a derail, sorry.  Biggest thing in this thread is...please, if people are doing the mage-hate thing, realize it has a lot less to do with you as a player and more to do with different people's interpretations and visions for the game.  You really should play mages mostly guilt free if it's your thing...just try to play the mage instead of the normal person with a gem (which is ironically what I think they did away with the main guild classes for.  Weeeeeird.  We should probably have mages back.)

[number13]

You know what would be fun? A omni-elementalist main class that can use magic from all of the elements, but their magic is super subtle. You could stir in either a mundane or magickal sub-class for extra oomph. You could call it a 'mystic'.

When I say subtle, I mean stuff like, you enchant someone so that they are slightly better at swinging a sword, or heal up a little bit faster, or gain some temporary hit-points. No sparkles, no explosions, no magic words.

The subtle mystic could be, in absence of an elementalist sub-guild, unable to wear a black gem. They get like grey gems or something.

[BadSkeelz]

Other than furiously beating his magick wand over the rest of us, what would something like that actually accomplish storywise?

[number13]

A magical main class that could operate alongside mundanes without overshadowing them or splashing everything with glitter.

[Eyeball]

A magical main class that could operate alongside mundanes without overshadowing them or splashing everything with glitter.

So Vivaduans?

[BadSkeelz]

To me, a class that provides "minor" buffs like that you describe is exactly "splashing everything with glitter." Mages shouldn't dominate plots, but they shouldn't infuse everything either. Magick should be rare, dangerous, and weird, and such a class wouldn't accomplish any of that. It's as much a trivialization of magick as a group of X-Men Gemmed solving all problems are.

To answer the Original Post, the players of magickers get flak because so many of them are (or were) rather blatantly after the coded power that the (sub)Guilds provided. Magick is just codified twinkage. Maybe if it had more coded drawbacks it wouldn't get the same amount of hate, similar to how people rarely disparage mul players compared to dwarf players. Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

[CodeMaster]

I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

[Cind]

I'm in favor for magick to be random. Like you log on your character on an account that's algorithmically aged and are offered,

"This character had the misfortune of being cursed by the magical element of Whira, aspect of tempest. You can choose not to manifest these powers in game and just ignore it. But your character knows something is wrong with them."

Do this once every 50 character applications or do a roll 1 out of 50 or 25 or something.

Staff's policy on keeping people from revealing you as a witch is "You really aren't in control of that." Although the rest of the playerbase is, usually, willing to go along with you. One time, I was perfectly happy playing an unmanifested crazy viv, but got tricked into manifesting. The player was not punished, and I didn't get mad because I enjoyed the play that came after. But I think the witch jewelry in the quarter shop got changed to not reveal people because of it.

Basically, if that ever happened to me, I'd immediately store and get a real merchant or ranger.

[Riev]

I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Add 1 more karma level (4 total) and start everyone with 1 karma. You still have to spend it to buy extended subs, but everyone gets access.

This assumes people are entitled to karma for some reason. Karma is (among other things) a reward for proving that you are responsible enough to play a sensitive role. Armageddon is great today because of the foundation laid in the past - high standards. The constant cries of "it isn't fair!" or "we all deserve X" is absolutely ridiculous.

Some guilds are not balanced. So what? If a newbie gicker can toast your 30 day warrior...good. Maybe that is part of the reason karma exists - to regulate the more powerful guilds. Maybe that gives a good incentive to actually RP fear of gickers; you know, like the docs say.

[sleepyhead]

TLH -- I don't know if you caught this, but under the system I proposed, new players would be no closer to playing any kind of gicker (touched or aspect) than they ever were, since all touched would be bumped up to 2 karma and aspects to 3+. So this would literally only affect who gets to play mundane extended subguilds*, which, unlike gickers or other races, are no more challenging or demanding to RP than regular subguilds. And while there are some powerful and abusable combos, it's veteran players that I worry you have to watch with them, not utter newbies who have never branched anything in their lives.

Look. I like you. I mean, I really do. I respect you so much as a player. But from reading your posts on the GDB, sometimes I think you get overly fixated on the idea that everyone around you is an entitled snowflake. And you're not entirely wrong; I agree with you sometimes that some people get a bit demanding. But not EVERY disagreement can be boiled down to everyone else being a lazy millennial who just has to have that participation trophy. Extended subguilds used to be something everyone had equal (but limited) access to, before they were tied to the karma system. I'm just suggesting a way to get back to something closer to that original vision, not giving newbies a fast track to playing sorcs and psis because I live in a happy pixie dust lala-equality-land where having to earn things is unfair. Magickers, HGs, muls, etc. are a whole different animal and I'm glad they're highly gated.

EDIT: *I suppose it might also affect who gets to play desert-elves, but we can bump those up to 2 karma too.

[Harmless]

To me, a class that provides "minor" buffs like that you describe is exactly "splashing everything with glitter." Mages shouldn't dominate plots, but they shouldn't infuse everything either. Magick should be rare, dangerous, and weird, and such a class wouldn't accomplish any of that. It's as much a trivialization of magick as a group of X-Men Gemmed solving all problems are.

To answer the Original Post, the players of magickers get flak because so many of them are (or were) rather blatantly after the coded power that the (sub)Guilds provided. Magick is just codified twinkage. Maybe if it had more coded drawbacks it wouldn't get the same amount of hate, similar to how people rarely disparage mul players compared to dwarf players. Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

I would emphasize a strong WERE for the "blatant coded power" of the mainguilds. But, I would also note (and agree with) an important fact that if you wanted to get anything done as a magicker before, you were forced to use a lot of magick to do it, because magick totally replaced all normal class abilities: combat, defense, crafting, detection, mobility, stealth, etc. Countering your post, there WERE multiple coded disadvantages for mainguilded magickers, namely their utter lack of main-class level abilities that provide basic survival skills and crafting skills. There were and still are the non-coded penalties socially that I think aren't up for debate here.

However, I get you that the "sprinkle pixie dust on everything" is not desirable for Armageddon. I agree completely, it doesn't fit a low-fantasy setting.

I tried to play magickers differently than that. Sure, I would practice a lot with the mainguild magickers in a temple to branch spells, because I wanted to have options; I tried to do it with roleplay, even solo RP, but as much as I could I would involve other magickers in my practice. If I was a rogue mage it would be more interesting then because there was so much more practicing to do (out of necessity) and therefore harder to hide.

If I were going to use mainguild magick I -tried- to avoid using them in too-visible a way. It was challenging at times; the way magick worked would mandate a whole room shaking or something equally ridiculous when you saw the emote. (I still have a problem with the fact that all casting involves chanting, a room-spook emote like a ball of flames or mist flying everywhere). However, things like a few hidden buffs were pretty fun, because people would wonder exactly what the magick was doing for your PC. As such, I tried to avoid say the "stoneskin" spell, or big magickal weapons sticking out of my PC's ass.

As a result, my magickers would often be a little less "accomplished" if coded accomplishment is the point of everything, but they were respected, because I was trying to fit the "low fantasy" theme despite having a broad variety of spells.  It also meant that, for example, a drov beetle would randomly 1-hit me BECAUSE i didn't have buffs on at all times that made my character survivable.
(This is in fact how my 30 day+ or whatever it was magicker ended up dying, after having been around for several Arm of the Dragon RPTs and being involved in the stories of other gemmed, some mundanes, some Templars, and some criminal scum).

Conclusion: I do appreciate strongly that the subguilds give magickers some self-reliance without needing to constantly spam magick all day. It better achieves a subtlety of a low-fantasy setting because "getting things done" (i.e., being involved in some plots, staying alive, making contacts) doesn't require twinkly-sparks all day and all night.

I would also add that "choosing magickers for coded advantages" is not true any longer because of some factors that you would understand if you played several of them currently. Overall, I think the GDB hatred of magickers, particularly the subguilds, needs to just vanish as a result of these two things, because it directly deals with the criticisms that respected players such as BadSkeelz listed above. In fact, I would argue these changes went into effect almost fully because of the community's discussions about magickers and these downsides to the old mainguilds that I agree did exist for some players of them.

But, I would also maintain my own counterpoint that at least the way I was playing mainguilds, I tried (and I hope, accomplished) being subtle, I didn't use magick constantly, I kept people guessing; it was possible, but it did require taking a lot of risk (such as by knowing you were unprepared for danger unless covered in magick buffs), it required more patience to await that cool opportunity to have magick play an intriguing role in a storyline, and it required heavy reliance on a subguild that would get you the ability to play a believable Zalanthan instead of just a magickal battery.

I also maintain that there could have been other ways to accomplish subtlety and removing the total reliance on highly-visible magick without just completely removing all the mainguilds, such as changing the magickal emotes, the magickal spell functions, etc.

Note for below: Don't overthink me hailing Badskeelz, just using him as an example of many vocal, active players, players who do often play or have played high ranking leadership roles and who I respect for their understanding of the setting. In fact, I greatly enjoyed playing a particular long lived magicker and interacting with him when he played a particular Lieutenant in The Arm. I would like to think he might not have made his strong opinions if he had more chances to interact with magickers using that shit more like I did and less like the stuff he unfortunately had repeated exposures to.

[Eyeball]

because it directly deals with the criticisms that respected players such as BadSkeelz listed above

BadSkeelz is respected? When did that happen? 

Listen, if your measure is satisfying BadSkeelz' criticisms (past and present), nothing short of removing elementalist magick altogether will suffice.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd be perfectly fine if full guild elementalists were restricted to tribals. I've never denied magick doesn't have a place in Arm. I just don't care much for how it's implemented.

It's a topic for another thread, anyhow.

[Feco]

I unabashedly love magick and invite attempts at shaming!

[Akaramu]

I unabashedly love magick and invite attempts at shaming!

You dirty magick lover you

[infinitehope]

I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.

I always Hemoted these sorts of things anyway as a magicker. Nothing is certain with magick. I know a popular one is to play upon emotions causing 'magical outbursts' .  Should be done a lot more often, imo, but its often seen as risky because people will often immediately dial the 'reaction' gauge up to 11.

[CodeMaster]

I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.

I always Hemoted these sorts of things anyway as a magicker. Nothing is certain with magick. I know a popular one is to play upon emotions causing 'magical outbursts' .  Should be done a lot more often, imo, but its often seen as risky because people will often immediately dial the 'reaction' gauge up to 11.

Interesting!  I'm only vaguely aware of the cantrips spells Riev mentions.

I was thinking more along the lines of magickers affecting the coded weather -- no hemotes or anything like that, just unusual heat when you type weather and you happen to be in the vicinity of a Suk-krath or two.  For plants replenishing, I was thinking the plant objects that are literally already in the game and spawn fruit, leaves, and branches that you can pick.  Or, I don't know, making it so Vivaduans are only able to add the smallest scars to themselves from the scar shoppe.

So, subtly altering the behavior of mechanisms that are already in the game in a way that reinforces suspicion and superstition and even witch hunts.

[stoicreader]

Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

I made a dwarf guide. Dwarves rock. Don't hate.

[seidhr]

Drive-by commentary:

1) Touched subguilds do get spells.  They receive a mixture of mundane skills and spells.  Non-touched magicker subguilds only get spells (with the necessary accompanying non-spell skills to be able to do spell stuff).  They can still be pretty powerful.

2) Having a different shaped gem with less severe penalties for touched subguilds is never going to happen.  From a layman's perspective, magick is magick and it's scary whether you can only cast one spell or seventy-six. The concept of guilds/subguilds is also a purely OOC mechanic. ICly, there's no such thing.

3) Magicker subguilds can still be insanely powerful - capable of killing 50 or 100 day warriors from a much younger age.

4) The cantrip spells do exist, but I don't believe the subguilds get them(?) - I'd have to look.  For the most part they don't actually do anything but echo to the room (at a cost of mana), and could be emoted.

5) Once the main guild revamp is done we have plans to look at (mundane and magick) subguilds too.

[Harmless]

Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

[MeTekillot]

Reintroduce full magick guilds as additions to main guilds.

Full skill list of mundane, full spell list. Control with an iron fist pupulation quota or just use the current system, I don't care. MAKE MAGICK GREAT AGAIN

[Hauwke]

Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

I would assume a 20 days played warrior with fireball would be terrifying. Open with a blast and just sword the last few hp away. Or an assassin who can make themself stupidly strong with magick could do the exact same thing just with backstab instead.

Its a simple matter of combining the two now instead of only uber-mega-fireball-of-dooming a guy or lightning bolting them to the face.

[Harmless]

An IC fear that is indeed terrifying. However I have yet to hear or see or accomplish that in game. If you ever have a character who actually died to someone using that kind of strategy, then let us know well over a year after it happened. For now, it's something you're assuming.

There are reasons why this kind of thing is unlikely to happen, and I am not here to argue the code or the IC/RP challenges (the rightful ones, by the way, I am not against the fact that this kind of thing isn't happening). Just...like I said, when your assumptions become reality, let us know.

I'll be waiting to hear about it.

[Riev]

Drive-by commentary:

4) The cantrip spells do exist, but I don't believe the subguilds get them(?) - I'd have to look.  For the most part they don't actually do anything but echo to the room (at a cost of mana), and could be emoted.

Drive-by retort:

is there any way that we can get a list of the Cantrips that DO exist, and their effects? Reasoning being:

They are still a spell, which means you can't/shouldn't really "cast" in public or at the Gaj. (I don't know about legal issues, but you shouldn't be uttering incantations in public).

If they are no longer attached to the subguilds, why even have them in game when they could serve another purpose?

If you gave it out in the Acceptance Email that "Here are 'some examples' of the room echoes that might go on around you" and just paste the cantrip effects, it would give us (me) much more room to play with for what is "acceptable".

For the record, the mon-level cantrips often had some sort of physical effect. I had one character who actually effected the room's light, once.

[Brokkr]

Cantrip
(Magick)
A cantrip is a minor magickal effect produced consciously or otherwise by an elementalist. They are expressions of the elementalist's element and deal exclusively in that element.

Some cantrips are overt - a Vivaduan exhaling mist, for example. Others are more subtle - such as a Rukkian always being dusty. Others are even subtler still - being barely, if at all, perceived by even the elementalist themselves: a Whiran's uncanny ability to read the wind or a Krathi's aptitude for managing a cook fire.

An inexperienced or manifesting elementalist often (but not always) cannot control their production of cantrips. With greater understanding and practice these spontaneous cantrips can be brought to heel. Some elementalists also struggle to control their powers when experiencing high emotion or stress - and this too can be controlled through a greater understanding of their elemental bond.

A minority of elementalists experience their bonds more wholly through cantrips - they find themselves possessing a greater attunement to the expressions of their element in the world around them. These 'touched' elementalists often find they have greater capacity in skills that their cantrips give them an edge in.

Cantrips are not a replacement for actual spells. If using a cantrip to replicate an actual spell, the spell itself should be used.

A cantrip can be one of several spells.  It can be what is happening around you when you are casting spells.  It can be an h/emote.  They can be voluntary or involuntary.  It can be emoting that you are able to climb well because the rock is helping you to climb.  In other words, it is fairly open ended, with certain illusionary spells being a small part (or not, depending on how you look at cantrips) of what is possible.

[seidhr]

Drive-by retort:
....
They are still a spell, which means you can't/shouldn't really "cast" in public or at the Gaj. (I don't know about legal issues, but you shouldn't be uttering incantations in public).
....
For the record, the mon-level cantrips often had some sort of physical effect. I had one character who actually effected the room's light, once.

If you're using cantrips in the Gaj about your skin getting unnaturally moist or the fire in a lantern bending to your will, I would hope some AoD soldier would arrest you, whether you are "cast"ing the spell or emoting the effect.

Yes, some of the cantrips could sometimes produce a coded effect.  That is why I said "for the most part" at the start of that sentence.

[MeTekillot]

So what if magickers were retardedly powerful and mundane PCs were outclassed? That's how the world works according to its documentation...

[Synthesis]

Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

I would assume a 20 days played warrior with fireball would be terrifying. Open with a blast and just sword the last few hp away. Or an assassin who can make themself stupidly strong with magick could do the exact same thing just with backstab instead.

Its a simple matter of combining the two now instead of only uber-mega-fireball-of-dooming a guy or lightning bolting them to the face.

Having played a 40-day warrior with a magick subguild...yeah.  Magick will still wreck your shit, guys.  All you have to do is stop main-guilding merchants and expecting to be badass.  You have to put in a ton of work now, and take a lot of risks, but after a while, it pays off.

[MeTekillot]

Full magicker subguilds.

[Nao]

After playing a subguild magicker (not touched) that got no combat help whatsoever for 20+ days - it varies, not all subguilds are created equal.

[Synthesis]

After playing a subguild magicker (not touched) that got no combat help whatsoever for 20+ days - it varies, not all subguilds are created equal.

Yeah, you have to min-max it to an extent (as with any other guild/subguild combo).

An artisan/krathi-devastation prooooobably is not going to be so great at devastating.  A viv-healer in a totally non-combat role probably isn't going to be much use at all.  And so on.

It's not that big a deal, and there are now a whole lot more main guild options, so if you end up with a totally useless PC...I mean...you have to take a little responsibility yourself, for that.

[MeTekillot]

Full magicker subguilds

Less grind, more gangster shit.

[Nao]

After playing a subguild magicker (not touched) that got no combat help whatsoever for 20+ days - it varies, not all subguilds are created equal.

Yeah, you have to min-max it to an extent (as with any other guild/subguild combo).

An artisan/krathi-devastation prooooobably is not going to be so great at devastating.  A viv-healer in a totally non-combat role probably isn't going to be much use at all.  And so on.

It's not that big a deal, and there are now a whole lot more main guild options, so if you end up with a totally useless PC...I mean...you have to take a little responsibility yourself, for that.

There is no way to know exactly what you're getting with the magick subguilds, unless you've played that type before. It wouldn't have changed much for that PC, and it led to some very interesting RP, so I'm not angry or anything. Just a bit disappointed about getting nothing whatsoever that would have been useful for combat, and that "magick will wreck your shit" isn't necessarily true. Some of these subguilds are just completely useless at wrecking anything, no matter what guild class or concept you combine them with.

[Brokkr]

Or, you know, maybe there was potential in the ubclass you hadn't unlocked.

It reminds me of someone else that sent in a rather thorough and thoughtful request about how their magic subguild sucked.  And I had to bite my tongue, because they were literally so close to branching the spells that would totally make their concept.

[sleepyhead]

Haha, that was me, right? Well, at least I was thorough and thoughtful, even if I was wrong.

Despite my limited non-staff perspective, I still do think a lot of the few slots we get as certain subguild gickers are occupied by flavor spells and cantrips that are fun but have very little practical utility. Even if there are one or two big 'gotcha' spells at the end of our branching trees, it'd be nice to see the rest of the kit have more synergy, even if its application is totally non-combat-oriented.

[number13]

I absolutely hate the idea that magic has to "wreck your shit" to be potent or interesting.

I'm unlikely to even try the magic subguilds, because the magic system in Armageddon is needlessly obtuse. That said, if I were to play an elementalist, it would a lot more fun to be able to play a spooky guy who can do a few subtly spooky weird things than Tim the Enchanter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZJZK6rzjns

[Akaramu]

Despite my limited non-staff perspective, I still do think a lot of the few slots we get as certain subguild gickers are occupied by flavor spells and cantrips that are fun but have very little practical utility. Even if there are one or two big 'gotcha' spells at the end of our branching trees, it'd be nice to see the rest of the kit have more synergy, even if its application is totally non-combat-oriented.

I agree. I was missing one or two spells on my subguild elementalist, and I knew what one of them was, and it was crazy powerful. Except I never would have used it because my character wasn't a hunter or killer.

Most of the spells I would have used with any regularity were scattered across the other two subguilds, so at a point where I was almost maxxed, I basically used one spell (plus one supplementary spell to make it work better in some situations). Practiced the others but didn't use them. At all.

I picked that subguild because that one spell I used all the time was vital to my character concept. Even though one of the other subguilds had more spells I would have used fairly often. 

[Dar]

Tim the Enchanter is actually a good demonstration of how magick subguilds 'improved' things, instead of harmed them. Tim The Enchanter is basically the Krathi, or an Elkrosian. Lots of spells to fuck shit up, but very little in terms of utility.  Not 'none', but veeerrry little. For these classes, the ability to have full guilds was a real improvement.



Having said that. I do too think the magick subguilds are very lucklaster, except a few overpowered kinds, and full elementalists, or a method of 'becoming' a full elementalist through character development, should be available.

[MeTekillot]

Full

magick

subguilds

Keep the dinky magick subguilds and control full magick subguilds heavily, if you like. Or just keep the same karma and population control systems and Make Magick Great Again. Open up all the old spooky stupidly-OP magick shit that's been steadily chipped away at over the years. Bring back the spooky supernatural beasties and unbalanced combat stances. Let people be unmitigated badasses so it hurts that much more whenever they bite it fucking hard.

[Dar]

Make vampires a chargen option and staff level invisibility a spell learnable by all whirans.

[MeTekillot]

[Delirium]

As someone who loved oldschool sorcerers and mages, I'm still gonna say: no thanks.

Could the magick subguilds use revisiting and reworking? Probably.

Full magick on top of mundane? No thank you, SIR.

[MeTekillot]

Coward.

[Delirium]

Stop trolling.

[Synthesis]

Full magick subguilds would be stupidly overpowered.

Getting back to the original point of the thread...I don't think there's been much OOC hate directed at players who repeatedly play magickers these days, because a) magickers aren't perceived as being as powerful out-of-the-box and b) the magickers who -are- powerful tend to be culturally similar to mundanes (where by "culturally similar" I mean the -players- have similar playing styles.

[MeTekillot]

So wait, is my idea because you disagree with it trolling or just where I was cheeky and called you a coward?

[Synthesis]

So wait, is my idea because you disagree with it trolling or just where I was cheeky and called you a coward?

You can't deliver jokes like that on the GDB, because a lot of people assume that it's meant to be confrontational, even if you're being tongue-in-cheek.  You might personally feel like you're part of the community and you're just joking around with your homies, but it ain't really like that.  These days, to be safe, you have to treat the GDB like you're corresponding with your slightly-cooler-than-average boss.

Edited to add: ha, at this moment, we have the same post count

[MeTekillot]

EDIT: I was being bellicose in this post on further reflection.

[Harmless]

Despite my limited non-staff perspective, I still do think a lot of the few slots we get as certain subguild gickers are occupied by flavor spells and cantrips that are fun but have very little practical utility. Even if there are one or two big 'gotcha' spells at the end of our branching trees, it'd be nice to see the rest of the kit have more synergy, even if its application is totally non-combat-oriented.

I agree. I was missing one or two spells on my subguild elementalist, and I knew what one of them was, and it was crazy powerful. Except I never would have used it because my character wasn't a hunter or killer.

Most of the spells I would have used with any regularity were scattered across the other two subguilds, so at a point where I was almost maxxed, I basically used one spell (plus one supplementary spell to make it work better in some situations). Practiced the others but didn't use them. At all.

I picked that subguild because that one spell I used all the time was vital to my character concept. Even though one of the other subguilds had more spells I would have used fairly often. 

I am replying to say a big +1 to the sentiments here that totally line up with my experience as well. Fluff spells that have no practical use are frustrating..especially when their one practical use as listed on the helpfile doesn't work at all or doesn't work as you might expect. When this happens I submit a bug report with the bug command. So far nothing has been serious enough to warrant a report via the website or has "broken" my concepts.

Luckily we at least have main guilds that allow our characters to have a role of some kind, though the stigma of the gem if you have it is still bad enough that it becomes a challenge. The nerf to being ungemmed as I alluded to is that the new branching process takes much more practice to get to the good stuff. As a gemmed unrestricted practice helps but doesn't negate that higher practice requirement.

Synthesis quoted an example of a 40 days played subguild magicker being deadly. So yeah, just about 1000 hours of playing to realistically get there is what I would expect if ungemmed and needing to work out a way to delve into the dark arts in secret. If gemmed the time it takes is probably about half that, so 20 days played, but with gem stigma it can be boring or painful at times to see so many RP opportunities closed off.

I am glad that I have a long career of playing much hated breeds and elves because being ignored or spat on and kept out of most RP events is my normal experience.


The original point of this thread is to try and mitigate the stigma on GDB posts against people who try to play a magicker. I am glad there have been some veterans posting here who confirmed my own experiences with the new process without revealing too much IC detail. Think about it.. these changes went in like 3 RL years ago now or something, and just now we can post these generalizations describing aspects of the experience. In that time I played roughly a handful, haven't even gotten through a quarter of the subguilds and far less than that in enough depth to get an idea. I also enjoyed some mundanes with pretty long lives of course. And I have been playing this game way too much on and off for a decade now. I do hope more people give the subguilds a look and hopefully now with realistic expectations, but if I see people allude to players of magickers as being nothing more than twinks who want a quick path to power I will politely refer them to this thread to correct their false, (outdated?) impressions.

[tapas]

Fluff spells that have no practical use are frustrating..especially when their one practical use as listed on the helpfile doesn't work at all or doesn't work as you might expect. When this happens I submit a bug report with the bug command.

We calls them skill gates. And we hates them!