Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?

[The Lonely Hunter]

I thought that I was being pretty easy with the three years. The way people play directly affects the environment of the game. If a bunch of people who do not grasp the documentation are playing in roles that they really can't understand it sets the bar lower and lower - I've been watching that happen for years. One of the major things that make Armageddon great is the caliber of players that we have and the extremely high standards. We shouldn't continue to lower those standards just to make people feel included or to be nice - earn it.

I promise that if you follow the rules and play by the documentation you will be rewarded. Really.

Play the game, have fun, murder over a waterskin, hate elves, and steal boots! You'll get there!

[Brytta Léofa]

without having to ask for the one-time privilege of trying it?

FWIW, special apping a character at $mykarmaplusone has always been one of the most reliable methods of earning karma, especially for low playtime or offpeak players.

[sleepyhead]

I agree that people who aren't having fun should quit, as should people who need to focus on RL. Maybe stoicreader is one of those people, and that's totally fine! I've had friends who have quit and I never pressure them to come back, even though I'd love to play with them. I just tell them they should continue doing whatever makes them happy, and if they're living more content, more fulfilled lives without Arm, I wouldn't want to see them return and be unhappy just because of my own selfish desire to play with them.

But some of us are just frustrated with certain aspects of the game, and aren't intent on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And others are considering quitting but wouldn't if certain things were fixed. I want to work on addressing those concerns. It doesn't really matter to me whether noobs "deserve" that point of karma or not, or whether it's bratty in some way for them to want to ask for it. The point is that it's a complaint I'm seeing over and over and it looks to me like we're losing players that we shouldn't have to lose, that we could easily retain if we adjusted our attitudes.

Some might say that new players who fixate on karma or feel they are "entitled" (as some put it) to rewards aren't the kind of new players that we need to retain. I STRONGLY disagree.

Firstly, the kinds of roles available to 1 karma players (without special apps, which have to be manually approved by staff anyway) are not particularly special, except maybe for touched guilds. I'd personally advocate for an expansion of the karma system to 4 or 5 points, so we could put touched a tier above, but whatever. It's still fine to leave the 1 karma tier as something very attainable.

Secondly, even if this attitude is the "wrong" one to have--and I'm not going to argue one way or another--I don't think we need to be using issues like this as some sort of gatekeeping device to deter newbies who are perceived as needy or whatever. You have to allow newbies room to grow into "mature" players, whatever that means to you, and that means not turning them off right off the bat. If that means throwing them a little piece of carrot to show they're appreciated and Nergal's "aristocracy of old players" isn't as unwelcoming as they think it is, I am all for it. I'm not advocating some sort of extreme, exaggerated measure like "grant all newbies full karma." I'm just advocating that they be able to ask for the longevity point they're already supposed to be getting, in case they haven't been noticed by staff yet.

Thirdly, many of the seemingly unsolvable problems we have with Arm would be easily addressed if we had a larger playerbase. So yeah. I'm prioritizing retaining newbies. The people who cry that the game is dying may be melodramatic, but they're not wrong that MUDs are not exactly the genre of the future. We need to be working extra hard and doing everything we can (within reason) to keep our playerbase strong, and maybe even grow it. That means looking into why people who otherwise like the game quit and figuring out how to keep them around.

Sure, it might feel like we kept the game "purer" if we make people wait 3 years for a single point of karma, but what will that be worth when there are hardly any players around anymore because the slow march of veteran players moving on with their lives continued, while we simultaneously failed to retain new players? Will we still be thinking, "Good riddance, we didn't need those spoiled snowflakes anyway?" Or will we be wishing we didn't push them away when they were still green, and deny them the chance to grow into the attitudes we expect of them?

[MarshallDFX]

I thought that I was being pretty easy with the three years.

Complete lunacy.  I'm just so flabbergasted I think you might be trolling.

God forbid we let people try a halfgiant after playing a game regularly for a year... they might roleplay mediocrely and then my personal enjoyment will be briefly and temporarily eroded somewhat.  To hell with them if they're trying and enjoy it.

Please don't gatekeep a dying community.

Basically, this.

[Brytta Léofa]

Complete lunacy.  I'm just so flabbergasted I think you might be trolling.

I'm not arguing for or against, but this is totally in line with how it used to work.

Added 1 karma, making 1 total, for Not a bad player, worth seeing what she will do. -  7/13/06.
Set karma to 2 - 10/17/07.
Added 1 karma, making 3 total, for Really impressed with Jakub, and he's very informative and succint in updates. I can't believe he was only 2 karma. - 12/26/08.
Set karma to 4, Given after review request. Been some time since last point, and no negative notes, however player informed that after 4th point of karma additional points are harder to gain and for meritous behaviour, rather than length of time. - 10/10/10.
Set karma to 5 -  5/28/12.

I'm not a particularly exemplary player; I'm the short-playtimes, takes-long-breaks, plays-boring-characters, no-leadership-roles kind of player. On the 8-point scale, I got about one karma per year (and maxed out at 5).

[sleepyhead]

TheLonelyHunter was in fact saying that with the new scale, you should have to play 3 years to get 1 karma. Or at least that's how I read it.

[MarshallDFX]

Complete lunacy.  I'm just so flabbergasted I think you might be trolling.

I'm not arguing for or against, but this is totally in line with how it used to work.

*edit* think I was getting wires crossed.  Yes, and I think that's nuts.

Your suggestion to special app as a way to get karma is a good one.

[Brytta Léofa]

TheLonelyHunter was in fact saying that with the new scale, you should have to play 3 years to get 1 karma. Or at least that's how I read it.

Yeah, I'm just saying: if 1 karma now == 2-3 karma of old, it took me 2-3 years to get to that level.

[sleepyhead]

Mm, I think having 1 karma under the new scale is actually much like having 1 karma in the old scale. 2 karma is like having 2-4 karma. 3 karma is something like having 5-7 karma, even though people who had 5 karma previously were put in the 2 karma tier.

[Veselka]

Armageddon, or any roleplaying MUD, is about as fun without staff attention as a D&D session is without a DM. The staff exist to support plots and move the game forward, and provide fun opportunities to players. It's why they are volunteers. If they have failed to provide fun opportunities to players then those players should find a game that provides fun to them.

---

Also, people who are saying variations of: I never had problems getting my karma, just play the game and have fun, my experiences have been fine, or what have you: look up "FYIGM" in Urban Dictionary and tell me how that is a valid position to have in a game that barely reaches 200 active players most weeks.

I completely disagree.

If anything, I think Staff feel fortunate and have fun playing with the Players, rather than slogging through building projects, handling TPS reports, and having meetings within meetings about the game.

You may consider 'Players' to be equitable with 'Players' in a D&D session, but my own experience has dictated a grey area. Players are both DM's, and Players, able to effect great change simply through their own perseverance and gumption. I've enjoyed more Player on Player plots than any Staff Run plot, during my time playing here.

[Cendell]

I understand why Staff haven't re-opened Karma reviews. It makes sense not to want to work in a half-built system.

That being said, I absolutely understand where new players are coming from. I've been playing since the early 2000's, off peak. I had a grand total of one karma, till a couple of years ago, when I got my second (Now one again on the new scale) It can feel exactly like you're just...not on the right bus. People post that they've played 5 sorcs, or a handful of Templars, and you despair of ever getting to do it yourself. People who -were- playing during those times and never saw any of the legendary characters of yore, let alone played them. (Though as a lot of people know, without the rose tint to your glasses, things were objectively not better back then, RP or otherwise)

But if the review system can't be re-opened for a while yet I'd love Staff to at least make sure that new players who are doing well, that are putting it reports, that feel like they're missing out, get their foot on the ladder. I don't feel like I need to stop anyone else reaching the same rung as me. If it keeps them happy, and here.

[Brokkr]

0 karma, review can be requested after regular play for 6 months to move to point 1.
At 1 karma, requests to move to point 2: at least 1.5 year of regular play.
At 2 karma, request to move to point 3: at least 3 years of regular play.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638

If you are a regular, exemplary player, the intent is that the above will apply.  This is not to say that most players will move to 3 karma, but rather the timeline for those it makes sense to move to that level.

I would guess there is some disagreement in what folks are calling a "regular" player.  How many days of playtime per real life year qualifies, in your mind?  How big can any gaps in play be?

[Veselka]

0 karma, review can be requested after regular play for 6 months to move to point 1.
At 1 karma, requests to move to point 2: at least 1.5 year of regular play.
At 2 karma, request to move to point 3: at least 3 years of regular play.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638

If you are a regular, exemplary player, the intent is that the above will apply.  This is not to say that move players will move to 3 karma, but rather the timeline for those it makes sense to move to that level.

I would guess there is some disagreement in what folks are calling a "regular" player.  How many days of playtime per real life year qualifies, in your mind?  How big can any gaps in play be?

I'm also not sure why players don't consider this to be a vast improvement to the previous Karma system, where two people playing for, say, ten RL years may or may not have anywhere near the same level of karma. Some might have 3, others 8, and that is where the favoritism and 'right place, right time' comes in. This seems much more streamlined, based around a 3 year turnaround, and expects that people will be on a mostly level playing field after sticking with the game, learning the ropes, and learning to RP well.

[Krath]

0 karma, review can be requested after regular play for 6 months to move to point 1.
At 1 karma, requests to move to point 2: at least 1.5 year of regular play.
At 2 karma, request to move to point 3: at least 3 years of regular play.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638

If you are a regular, exemplary player, the intent is that the above will apply.  This is not to say that move players will move to 3 karma, but rather the timeline for those it makes sense to move to that level.

I would guess there is some disagreement in what folks are calling a "regular" player.  How many days of playtime per real life year qualifies, in your mind?  How big can any gaps in play be?

Brokkr,

This needs to be a sticky in it's own self on the announcement page. It is clear and concise.

[frankjacoby]

I would think someone regularly giving 3-5 years of their time and being stuck at low levels of Karma completely unacceptable.

[stoicreader]

I got maybe a dozen emails the last few days, a half dozen messages of folks who go through the same thing or empathize with me. Many asked me not to quit.

I definitely feel the love, no doubt. When I logged on this afternoon to settle affairs before quitting Armageddon, I created some dramatic reason behind my character leaving.

And crazier things happened and over 3 hours I got so excited about the role. Staff showed up and played with us!! I wished up for something and we got it!!! <3 that's never happened in my off peak life.

It was as if you all deliberately planned a ninja RPT the moment I logged on to quit, starting within minutes, just to prevent me from quitting.

I'm so torn.

I want to punish the policy of discrimination and not participate in this game, but that was so fun. It had blood and romance and death and pain and inspiration and I cried a little.

Really. I cried a little.

I still have one foot out the door and will still probably quit when the emotional high wears off. But I hope maybe before I do quit, that the staff will say something positive about the plight of newbies and how they want it fixed too.

[stoicreader]

Just recognize that it ain't right... And promise to fix it.

[Harmless]

yeah...so I read a lot of the posts by folks here who I know damn well have 2 karma or more (sorry, I'm meta like that, I know past characters you played and can surmise your current karma level from it. That shit happens when you've been around a long time), and I gotta say...you need to have a bit more understanding of the new folks here who don't have the karma to play the roles you do.

So, as I said before, and since it really is just my opinion and nothing else, I agree with the suggestion that the 1st karma point either be automated, or reviewed more willingly, than say the 2nd or 3rd karma points, which mean much more in the grand scheme of things.

New players really are the lifeblood of the game. I do hope that any new player seeing this thread isn't turned away from the game over this discussion, but I'm not going to sit here with my current karma level and tell ya'll that you don't deserve a karma review, because when I was playing over the first several years of my Arm career I had access to karma reviews like it wasn't even a thing. Please, stick around, and give the imms a chance to figure out whatever it is they need to figure out (hopefully in a way that sticks) so that you get to keep learning the game.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I don't care about Karma, give it to whoever or don't.   

[mansa]

...But I hope maybe before I do quit, that the staff will say something positive about the plight of newbies and how they want it fixed too.

Currently, the ArmageddonMUD Discord channel is the most active place to chat with staff members.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52418.0.html

Often, it's just various people speaking about what food they are cooking, but sometimes good discussions happen there about what we want to see change in the game, and immortals also chime in.   I personally find it a better way to communicate than in long form discussions that the GDB is designed for.

I would suggest to pop in.   In my personal experience, I know I've made suggestions to change some things in the game to make it better for newbies, either through the idea / bug command, or through the request tool, and they eventually went in. 


Regarding workload for immortals - I would like some data before making more suggestions.
Rahnevyn or Brokkr, could you give us some data regarding the 203 players that logged in last week?  What is the Karma breakdown of these players?

[chrisdcoulombe]

Oh, I gotta say though I read this thread and I agree with stoic reader mostly.

[Kankfly]

There's a lot of talks about karma. I just want to chime in to say that getting karma now is even easier than it was.

For 10 years I've been playing with only 3 karma - in the new system, that means I only have 1 karma. There was no structured system on how we were able to gain karma either, so there was no way any players would've known how to gain any. In the recent years, staff has made some changes in the karma system in an effort to make it more attainable for - yup, you guessed right - new players.

They wrote out a fleshed out help file where karma is categorized so players know which areas they need to improve on in order to gain karma.

They shrunk the karma scale from 8 to 3 - that's a giant shrink btw - so that - yup, you guessed right again! - new players are able to play more options once they gain that single point of karma, whereas, in the past, you are only able to play desert elf when you gain that first point of karma.

Yes, they shut down karma review. But this doesn't mean that is the only way to gain karma. Armageddon is not a regular game where you spend this amount of effort and gain prizes right away. Armageddon is a more challenging game, and the rewards aren't gained in badges or achievements but through pitfalls, meeting challenges face on, and yes, lots and lots of patience, understanding (from both sides - staff and players alike), and the willingness to keep an open mind as well as emotions in check while trying to figure out just what is the best way it is to reach your goal.

This is what makes Armageddon so fun, at least for me.

[chrisdcoulombe]

There's a lot of talks about karma. I just want to chime in to say that getting karma now is even easier than it was.

For 10 years I've been playing with only 3 karma - in the new system, that means I only have 1 karma. There was no structured system on how we were able to gain karma either, so there was no way any players would've known how to gain any. In the recent years, staff has made some changes in the karma system in an effort to make it more attainable for - yup, you guessed right - new players.

They wrote out a fleshed out help file where karma is categorized so players know which areas they need to improve on in order to gain karma.

They shrunk the karma scale from 8 to 3 - that's a giant shrink btw - so that - yup, you guessed right again! - new players are able to play more options once they gain that single point of karma, whereas, in the past, you are only able to play desert elf when you gain that first point of karma.

Yes, they shut down karma review. But this doesn't mean that is the only way to gain karma. Armageddon is not a regular game where you spend this amount of effort and gain prizes right away. Armageddon is a more challenging game, and the rewards aren't gained in badges or achievements but through pitfalls, meeting challenges face on, and yes, lots and lots of patience, understanding (from both sides - staff and players alike), and the willingness to keep an open mind as well as emotions in check while trying to figure out just what is the best way it is to reach your goal.

This is what makes Armageddon so fun, at least for me.

<3

[MarshallDFX]

On Mansa's data point, I'd love to see three scatter/boxplot charts:

Total account days played by current karma level (all history)

Account days played in the last two years by current karma level

New Karma level achieved by days played since the karma changes (ie potentially multiple points per account)

Bonus points if the points could be colour scaled by the amount of negative/positive account notes

[Refugee]

I'm not in favor of karma being tied only to time played, as seems to be suggested by some posters.  You can play ten years and still not be a great roleplayer or understand how to make advanced roles fit in to the fabric of the story so that it doesn't interfere with the smooth interlocking of all the creators of the story, the other players.  Remember the conversation recently about half-giants and how so many of them are played incorrectly, to such a degree that some wanted them removed entirely from the game.

If Karma isn't a merit-based metric, people who only play tanking dwarfs who do nothing more than spar up so they can go slaughter stuff will eventually be playing the most powerful roles in the game, just the same way.

Karma isn't perfect, that's for sure.  I figure I have about the right amount for how I understand the game and how I would be able to integrate roles I played into the world.  It's good to point out flaws in the system and debate how to fix it.

It's understandable that new players would feel stymied, but I would suggest that instead of demanding trust or else doesn't come across as very trustworthy.  It seems to me that staff will want good players playing demanding roles in the future and will find ways to see that capable players make their way into those roles.  Patience and maturity will help more than threats and accusations.