Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?

[stoicreader]

Mansa, take a look at the post about "how many chacaters have you played?".

Take a look at the crazy awesome options people have rolled. Yourself also. Sorcerer, nilazi, psi...

[Riev]

It's understandable that new players would feel stymied, but I would suggest that instead of demanding trust or else doesn't come across as very trustworthy.  It seems to me that staff will want good players playing demanding roles in the future and will find ways to see that capable players make their way into those roles.  Patience and maturity will help more than threats and accusations.

If some are DEMANDING Karma or I Quit! then... yeah. That's a problem. However, the general tone of this thread has been "I want to show that I am trustworthy, how can I do that if you shut down the only method I have of requesting a review?"

As some have mentioned, you CAN earn karma outside the official review, but staff have said in the past that sometimes things "slip by". That's what the Request Tool is FOR, so you can't just slip by.

So far as I can tell, people aren't demanding their first karma point. They're asking what they can do earn it, because following the rules would suggest they're not allowed to ask for it.

[Armaddict]

If some are DEMANDING Karma or I Quit! then... yeah. That's a problem. However, the general tone of this thread has been "I want to show that I am trustworthy, how can I do that if you shut down the only method I have of requesting a review?"

If they demand karma or quit, then buh-bye is the only correct answer.  Sorry, you don't get to hold a game hostage under the claim it's a dying game.  It's ridiculous, an entitlement born completely out of context (sorry, there are people who have been around a lot longer and played a lot cooler things who didn't get the same things you're now -demanding-).

As far as the actual reasonable newer players, I still really think the special application process needs to go back to what it was.  None of the 'limitation' garbage that has been tacked on over time.  None of this 'You can only app for things within range of your karma.'  Go back to letting people play things they want insofar as it doesn't unbalance the IC game.

I'm not sure I understand why 'Oh, I need to communicate with staff first to get a character concept under discussion and flowing before I can apply' is such a heinous crime.  It's how some of us got our karma in the first place.  It's also how some of us played any of the 'super cool things' you want to play.  If that opens up, can people shut up about Karma already?

[Riev]

Perhaps. That IS how it worked in the past, but does not appear to be how it works currently. I did not earn Drovian karma when I played my Drovian special application, nor any karma from it. I either did not do a good job, or at the time I had not EARNED the trust of the staff to play that role more often. Which is fine. I'm terrible and I admit it.

However, a 0-karma player is likely to feel like they cannot apply for a special application, because they haven't even earned the 1 karma that shows staff have noticed them and felt they can handle a tougher role. I, for one, would like to see all special apps outside psi/sorc be opened to all players and the "committee" that determines if you get the role can decide if you've earned it.

Karma is about trust, and if you have 0 karma, does that mean you have 0 trust from staff in your ability to play a role? Or does it mean 'we want to see more'? At least with a Karma review, you can be told "We want to see more, but we're watching."

[Kankfly]

You can special app for roles when you don't have the karma, no? Even as a 0-karma player? Or maybe I'm just tired and I'm not getting it.

[frankjacoby]

I thought that I was being pretty easy with the three years. The way people play directly affects the environment of the game. If a bunch of people who do not grasp the documentation are playing in roles that they really can't understand it sets the bar lower and lower - I've been watching that happen for years. One of the major things that make Armageddon great is the caliber of players that we have and the extremely high standards. We shouldn't continue to lower those standards just to make people feel included or to be nice - earn it.

I promise that if you follow the rules and play by the documentation you will be rewarded. Really.

Play the game, have fun, murder over a waterskin, hate elves, and steal boots! You'll get there!

While you have your point of view, let me offer an alternate point of view, IMO, having a rigid set of rules with zero flexibility, ie, no Karma because you're not a mindless adherant to the rules, does not endear someone to keep playing. Karma should not be used as a carrot which is tied in front of a donkey but never given.  Instead, IMO, again, Karma should be used as a stick to lower options if someone is not doing their thing.

I have RPd with some people who have posted frequently on here and they use RP as a means to beat other people down and emote force people into situations.  Also, people with good Karma who have been trusted with high roles frequently walk out after less than a week or a month RL but STILL keep their Karma levels and noone talks about it.  I think people should be trusted until they prove otherwise and punished if they don't maintain that level of 'trust'.

[MarshallDFX]

You can special app for roles when you don't have the karma, no? Even as a 0-karma player? Or maybe I'm just tired and I'm not getting it.

You can app 1 karma higher.  So a 0 karma player couldn't app a halfgiant for example

[seidhr]

Getting that first point of karma is about more than just having been logged into the game for X time.

The longevity karma is only awarded when someone understands the game world.  Stuff like:
* The place of elves, half-elves, dwarves, and so on - in the social hierarchy.
* Magick is scary and not a wonderful thing that your PC should gravitate towards as some miracle that they yearn to experience and be a part of.
* You should bow to templars, if you know what's good for you.
* What is the T'zai Byn?  Who is Tektolnes?  Where is Tuluk compared to Allanak?

They should also OOCly understand the game's mechanics, stuff like:
* If you are going by the alias "Smoke" then you should "addkeyword smoke" so that people can use it to reference you, codedly.
* Going outside is dangerous alone.
* Basic understanding of game commands - emoting, language, when to use and not use OOC.
* Familiar with the concept of the request tool, how and why to use it.

People learn these things at different rates. 

Case 1 - A new player has a friend who helps them learn all this stuff almost immediately, or they're just a fast learner.  They created their account a bit over six months ago, and have had four PCs.  The first two PCs died quickly in under a day played, but they found their stride with the third PC, joined the Byn and got promoted to First Trooper before being killed in a training accident at over 10 days played.  This PC demonstrated distrust of elves, and fear of magickers.  Now they've just started a special app slipknife PC, that they communicated with staff via the request tool to get.  This kind of player would be a shoe-in for a longevity point.

Case 2 - Someone created their account years ago but it's taken them this long to have a couple PCs with more than a day played on them, and their total playtime across all the PCs is less than 10 days played.  Maybe they even have more cumulative time, but fact is - they still don't know most of the above stuff.  In this case, they aren't ready for karma roles.  They just need more time or more commitment to learn.

Case 3 - Someone has been playing since 2010 but seems only motivated to grief other players.  They have a vast amount of playtime but continually abuse code mechanics in silly ways.  They're not getting any karma until if/when they clean up their act, even though they know all of the above and have plenty of playtime too.

In a nutshell, this is why there's some subjectivity to granting karma - we try our best to be fair about it, but of course it's not perfect.  Case 1 and 2 are very common.  Case 3 - well I can only think of one example, and it's definitely an outlier, but we definitely wouldn't want that guy playing roles with even more power.

Even still, people can special app for stuff outside their reach (while we wouldn't let a brand new player pick something beyond their understanding, someone in the grey area certainly could).

If this isn't enough, well - Arm isn't the game for everyone.  It *is* niche and it's going to stay that way.  At the zero karma level, there are a ton of options, and a wide variety of opportunities to roleplay different stuff - guilds and subguilds, races, locations, clans, and so on.

[Riev]

The point is, Seidhr, that while it IS a subjective thing to award karma, people are looking for a way to have themselves evaluated.

You can be as fair and balanced as Fox News if you want to, but if you have people who really feel they're ready, looking for feedback, why not have a system to do that?

It really engenders a sense of "you're not as important or interesting as this other player, because we gave them karma first". At least let someone ask for a review, and be told "Sorry not yet, but work on these things and you'll get there"

[frankjacoby]

In a nutshell, this is why there's some subjectivity to granting karma - we try our best to be fair about it, but of course it's not perfect.  Case 1 and 2 are very common.  Case 3 - well I can only think of one example, and it's definitely an outlier, but we definitely wouldn't want that guy playing roles with even more power.

The question would be, do people that fit in Case 3 even know about this?  Is/was there feedback to them letting them know or is/are their cheese(s) hanging in the wind.? they unaware?

Then again, it's probbly me.

[seidhr]

No Riev, I am specifically addressing the people who were saying that you should automatically get a point of karma when you are logged in for 10 (or whatever amount) days cumulatively.

[frankjacoby]

I don't make the decisions here, but could it be possible to have Karma automatically granted for time served on the game and then removed if the person is found abusing?  This way, it takes away the entire argument of I can't get Karma if I am not being observed and I cannot be observed if noone pays attention to me.  Personally, after many years and some good roles, I just stopped really caring about it and accepted that I will probably never get it, so to me it's whatevs. I play because it alleviates my boredom here at work and I don't have any other option.  With the changeover to the new system, the 2 that I managed to achieve after many years is essentially useless as I am back to the drawing board.  It is this attrition that leads to a lot of players leaving and not returning though the game has newer and shinier things to offer.

Again, just my $0.02 on the subject, color me jaded

[Riev]

Neehhh, there's a much bigger pushback if your "earned" things are taken away. Even moreso than the push for "I want to earn them to begin with".

Being docked karma is much more visible as a punishment than not having earned the karma in the first place.

#BringBackKarma2018

[cnemus]

When I first started playing Arm, I was very off-peak and didn't see many players. I did solo-RP and put in character reports about what I was up to and any concerns I had I just asked staff about in those reports. That led to some productive feedback about how to get engaged and taught me a lot. If something cool or funny happens, I clean up the log and include it too, so even if staff aren't around, they can share in the fun.

I know Karma is a goal for some people and the possibility of opening reviews to 0 Karma players might help with some frustrations, but even when reviews were open, it was a common discussion on the GDB about it. Karma and the roles that come with it don't somehow make Arm 'more' fun. Whatever role you play, at whatever karma, I feel like by focusing on living great stories and having the most fun in that moment, you can get more satisfaction than striving for an OOC goal. Search for a role that will engage you and you'll have fun with, repeat. Karma will happen.

[stoicreader]

You can be as fair and balanced as Fox News if you want to, but if you have people who really feel they're ready, looking for feedback, why not have a system to do that?

It really engenders a sense of "you're not as important or interesting as this other player, because we gave them karma first". At least let someone ask for a review, and be told "Sorry not yet, but work on these things and you'll get there"

Exactly. Otherwise it comes of as discrimination.